Prosecutors in special counsel Jack Smith's investigation into former President Donald Trump's attempts to subvert the 2020 election results have in recent weeks asked Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, among other witnesses, about whether the 2024 Republican frontrunner had privately acknowledged that he had lost the election, four sources briefed on the matter told the New York Times.
Kushner testified before the Washington grand jury in the case last month, where a source briefed on the matter said he maintained it was his understanding that Trump truly believed the election had been stolen from him.
"The questioning of Mr. Kushner shows that the federal investigation being led by the special counsel Jack Smith continues to pierce the layers closest to Mr. Trump as prosecutors weigh whether to bring charges against the former president in connection with the efforts to promote baseless assertions of widespread voter fraud and block or delay congressional certification of Joseph R. Biden Jr.'s Electoral College victory," the Times reported.
The subject of the questions also indicates prosecutors may be trying to establish whether Trump knowingly based his efforts on a false claim as he strove to stay in office, which is evidence that could boost any case prosecutors may decide to bring against him.
Neither a spokesperson for Kushner or a spokesperson for Trump responded to the Times' email request for comment.
Others within Trump's circle who interacted with him following the 2020 election — and have potentially more incriminating accounts of the former president's conduct — have also been questioned by federal prosecutors recently. Repeating the account she shared before the House select committee investigating Jan. 6 last year, Alyssa Farah Griffin, the White House communications director in the days following the 2020 election, told prosecutors this spring that Trump had asked her at the time, "Can you believe I lost to Joe Biden?"
"In that moment I think he knew he lost," Griffin told the House committee.
According to Times correspondent Maggie Haberman, Trump was "very upset" that both Kushner and his daughter, Ivanka Trump, who has not yet been questioned before the grand jury but did testify before the Jan. 6 committee, had cooperated with federal investigators in cases against him.
Haberman told CNN's Jake Tapper Thursday afternoon that Ivanka Trump's testimony put a "strain" on her relationship with her father.
"When the testimony was aired showing both Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump being interviewed by the House Select Committee during those live hearings was that Trump was very upset, particularly about Ivanka Trump," Haberman said. "He was not happy about these video clips showing her suggesting that she had believed what Bill Barr was saying and Bill Barr, the former attorney general, of course, said that there was no widespread fraud and told Trump that and he testified to all of that. My understanding is things have improved them, but it definitely brought a strain to the relationship."
Some legal experts said Kushner's testimony signals a direct link between the former Trump senior advisor and efforts to use the claims about a stolen election to fundraise. MSNBC legal analyst Lisa Rubin noted that the testimony "suggests the fundraising prong of the 1/6 investigation is very much live."
"[Trump campaign ad maker Larry] Weitzner also revealed that the one time he spoke to Trump about post-election ads, it was because Trump and Jared called him together on speakerphone to convey 'what they felt was wrong about the election process that might be considered for some ads,' Rubin wrote on Twitter.
In response to the Times' report, Timothy Heaphy, the former lead investigator to the Jan. 6 committee, told MSNBC's Nicolle Wallace Thursday that, as facts developed around the 2020 election, Trump's rhetoric became "increasingly inconsistent with the facts," which can lead to mindful criminal intent.
"It's fraudulent, to bilk people out of their money because it's an effective fund-raising scheme," Heaphy said. "All of it is important. There's a disconnect between the rhetoric and the facts."
Heaphy also argued that investigators questioning Kushner, despite his being the former president's son-in-law, is fair because Trump involved him in White House affairs.
"He's part of the president's family," Heaphy continued. He "was involved in discussions soon after the election in which the president was told directly that he lost. He was present for this meeting where the pollster, the data guy from the campaign, actually presented the numbers and went through the sort of explanation of the decreased margins in the suburban areas, and he was already starting to move to Florida."
Kushner, during his Jan. 6 committee testimony, explained he was overseas handling his Abraham Accords project during the Capitol attacks, adding that he returned the evening of the riots and held a dinner party at his home the following day. The testimony implied that Kushner was minimally involved with Jan. 6 efforts, but experts discussing the report on MSNBC said Kushner had a lot to do with the financial side of the rally that day.
Rubin also noted on Twitter that besides Jason Miller, Trump and Kushner, "no one was more involved in post-election fundraising and related messaging than Jared."
"Asked to recall details about the conversation, Weitzner remembered Jared initiating the call and Trump insisting that they characterize the election as 'stolen' in 'very aggressive' terms Weitzner himself later described as 'fire breathing' in an email to others," Rubin added.
Other than Trump & Jason Miller, no one was more involved in post-election fundraising and related messaging than Jared. As ad guru Larry Weitzner told the 1/6 committee, the small circle working on post-election ads included Miller, Newt Gingrich,Trump's pollster & Jared. 2/ pic.twitter.com/fP4RPkiHbD
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) July 13, 2023
Asked to recall details about the conversation, Weitzner remembered Jared initiating the call and Trump insisting that they characterize the election as "stolen" in "very aggressive" terms Weitzner himself later described as "fire breathing" in an email to others. 4/ pic.twitter.com/4o3EZbocoB
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) July 13, 2023
During the MSNBC appearance, Heaphy also described how deeply Kushner was involved in the fundraising process.
"He was directly involved in the campaign fundraising that then became the stop the steal fundraising. He was directly personally briefed almost daily about the cash machine, veritable, hand-over-fist money-making machine it was, the Stop the Steal," he said.
"The Trump campaign pivoted to a fundraising operation, and Jared Kushner was right in the center of the strategy of mining the false narrative for repeated cash contributions of up to $250 million after the election," Heaphy continued. "So, to the extent Jack Smith is looking into campaign fund-raising based on these false statements of election fraud, Jared Kushner would have information about that as well."
