Kemi Badenoch stumbled over how her plans to overhaul equality laws would work if the Conservatives win the general election.
The women and equalities minister has promised to redefine the legal definition of the term “sex” to mean biological sex and not “redefined meanings of the word”. She has said the shakeup will improve the safety of women and girls in single-sex spaces.
Click here for our live coverage of the general election campaign.
But, grilled over the specifics of how the changes will be implemented, a tetchy Ms Badenoch floundered and accused BBC presenter Mishal Husain of “trying to trivialise what is a very serious issue”.
Appearing on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Ms Badenoch faced questions about what paperwork would be needed to assign prison places to transgender people or what paperwork they would need to access services such as rape crisis centres.
But the future Tory leadership contender said “this is not a paperwork issue, this is a practical issue”.
But an exasperated Ms Husain pointed to existing government guidance for people who have legally changed gender to order amended birth certificates.
“I am sure you have thought this through… to be able to legally bar someone who is not biologically female from somewhere like a rape crisis centre, what is the paperwork you would be demanding or excluding them from using to back up their claim?” she asked.
Ms Badenoch said the question implied that “no one should be able to do anything at all”.
Asked about how transgender women would be assigned to prison places, Ms Badenoch said: “The fact of the matter is the prison authorities will know… they will know, and they will put them in there on the basis of their biological sex.”
She confirmed that decisions would be made based on people’s sex at birth, which she said was the meaning of “biological sex”.
But, pressed again on what paperwork would be required, Ms Badenoch said: “Mishal, I really appreciate that you are trying to get into very technical scenarios… trying to make this a paperwork issue is, I’m afraid, a distraction and is trying to trivialise what is a very serious issue.”
Speaking to LBC radio, Ms Badenoch said: "We want people to have privacy and dignity. This is about protecting those who are vulnerable, it is not about stopping trans people from having privacy and dignity.
"That’s why we have said you should have unisex toilets, a disabled toilet is an example of that, or where there are shared spaces, they should be on the basis of biological sex."
She added: "Changing your clothes doesn’t change who you are, we want people who are trans to be protected as well, people who want to change their clothes should not be able to exploit the scenarios we have prepared and the laws we have put in place to protect those people who are genuine transgender people, those who suffer gender dysphoria.
"Just putting on a different set of clothes does not make you transgender."
The Conservatives the Equality Act passed by Labour in 2010, has not kept pace with evolving interpretations and is not sufficiently clear on when it means sex and when it means gender.
It says the proposed change to the law will not remove the existing and continuing protections against discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment provided by the Equality Act.
The sex of those with a Gender Recognition Certificate will still align with their acquired gender in law outside the Equality Act.
Under the new scheme the Conservatives will also establish in law that gender recognition is a reserved matter, as they say “this will mean that an individual can only have one sex in the eyes of the law in the United Kingdom”.
Rishi Sunak, who issued the pledge after his party fell further behind Labour in the latest poll, said: “The safety of women and girls is too important to allow the current confusion around definitions of sex and gender to persist.
“The Conservatives believe that making this change in law will enhance protections in a way that respects the privacy and dignity of everyone in society.
“We are taking an evidence-led approach to this issue so we can continue to build a secure future for everyone across the whole country.”
Last year, the minister for women and equalities Kemi Badenoch wrote to the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) seeking further guidance on the issue.
Ms Badenoch said public bodies are acting out of “fear of being accused of transphobia”.
She said: “Whether it is rapists being housed in women’s prisons, or instances of men playing in women’s sports where they have an unfair advantage, it is clear that public authorities and regulatory bodies are confused about what the law says on sex and gender and when to act – often for fear of being accused of transphobia, or not being inclusive.
“That is why we are today pledging that, if we form a government after the election, we will clarify that sex in the law means biological sex and not new, redefined meanings of the word.
“The protection of women and girls’ spaces is too important to allow the confusion to continue.”
