Liverpool Riverside is frequently cited as the most fractious constituency on Merseyside. Some local members have complained that they are put off by the divisive nature of constituency Labour party (CLP) meetings, while others blame the area’s MP, Louise Ellman, saying she is out of step with the views of members.
Readers suggested that I spoke to Ellman, who represents the Labour and Co-operative party, and is one of the MPs who supported the vote of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn. Originally from Manchester, Ellman had a long track record in council politics in Lancashire before becoming an MP in 1997. We met last week in her office in parliament.
She told me that she welcomed the influx of new members into the party, and blamed the fractious nature of meetings in her constituency on a handful of the CLP’s roughly 2,000 members.
The divisive nature of Riverside CLP meetings seems to centre on Ellman’s lack of support for Corbyn, but also the Israel-Palestine issue, which is often raised.
Ellman, who is chair of the Jewish Labour Movement and vice-chair of Labour Friends of Israel, has complained officially about what she said were antisemitic remarks at CLP meetings. The Jewish Chronicle reported the complaints, which it said were believed to have been led by “activists from the hard-left group Momentum”.
Below is the transcript from our meeting.
Ewen MacAskill: Someone in the Labour party in Liverpool said that Riverside is the most fractious of the CLPs and I just wonder if you agree with that and whether it has always been like that or is this a sort of recent phenomenon?
Louise Ellman: “Yeah, well, it is very recent. It hasn’t always been like that. I can talk about since I was elected in 1997. I mean, before that, I think,the answer is probably yes, because it was a centre of Militant Tendency. I think it probably was. But since 1997 until very recently it’s been a very constructive constituency, members engaged, always been connected with the community, campaigning with local community groups and working very hard to rebuild the trust of local communities after Militant Tendency.
“Because when Militant collapsed people just wouldn’t vote Labour in Liverpool. They voted Lib Dem. And we had to regain people’s trust … Labour lost control of the council. Lib Dems were riding high and it took a long time to rebuild the trust with local people. Riverside Labour party was a very constructive force in doing that. People engaged, [were] out in the community campaigning all the time. Within the constituency, the nature of politics is that people have different views and opinions but debates were always held in a very comradely way. Different views were expressed but we felt we were all working together. And that has changed a great deal very recently.”
When did the change take place?
“It changed after the last general election. We got a lot of new members, as you know. I think a lot of those new members are very enthusiastic, very keen and it is great to see so many people enthused about politics. But I do think there are a number of individuals among them who are really committed to creating dissent and conflict, and have created very antagonistic situations. Most people are not doing that. But there are a number who are. And it is very unpleasant.”
What do you think is driving them? You said they’re disruptive but what motivates them?
“There are a lot of young people, very keen and enthusiastic. They are not doing that. People who are doing this are more interested in destroying than building. I think they want to depict Riverside CLP as run by people who are inactive and uninterested and they want to present themselves as people who want to be positively engaged. And, in fact, the reverse is true.”
Did this predate Jeremy Corbyn? Was it a result of the election?
“No, It was after. It was after the general election. It all is since Jeremy became leader. Most of the people I am talking about, when they start to speak, preface their comments with ‘I am a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn’. And many of them say ‘I am only here because of Jeremy Corbyn’.”
What kind of issues do they raise? Or what kind of things do they say?
“They seem to be obsessed on Middle East issues. I have been reading your articles and Sarah Byrne – a Riverside Labour member who complained about the confrontational nature of the CLP meetings – said to you that it gets ‘shouty’ … about Palestine.”
It is a good phrase.
“Which seems to be true. That seems to be obsessive with a small number of people. And in general – and again I stress this is a minority of people I am talking about – but they set the tone of what is happening and try to be dismissive of councillors who are doing very hard work. Riverside has been a very active party. We built trust with the electorate. One of the things that concerns me is … that the people, the community are hardly ever mentioned.
“Conversations are solely about members and elected representatives. But the community of people who are not necessarily active at all are hardly mentioned when really that is who we are working for.”
How many members are there in the CLP?
“It keeps changing. I think we have got about 2,000 at the moment. But that might have changed.”
So what number are we talking about out of that 2,000? When you say it is a minority?
“We are probably talking about eight or nine people, something of that order, who set the tone. A lot of people who have joined are new to politics and it is great to see that. I think they see the whole of politics as being about protest and do not see protest as part of political activity, and I always like to see a result from protest and look to change things. I think many of them think protest in itself is their objective.”
Is there any personal abuse at CLP meetings themselves? Or does it come on social media?
“I don’t want to go into too much detail about the meetings. But it is a very unpleasant atmosphere that has been created.”
The Jewish Chronicle reported that you were subjected to antisemitic remarks. Where did these come from?
“There were some remarks which I regard as antisemitic made to me at a meeting and a complaint has been made so I don’t want to say any more about that. But you have read what was in the Jewish Chronicle. I think that did depict the meeting.”
Someone said to me one of the reasons Riverside is so fractious is because you have larger number of students than say Wallasey or Birkenhead.
“I think the whole lot of the new members are enthusiastic and it is great to see that. But I think those small number of people who are intent on creating dissent, some of those are people who have been in the party before or been in other political parties. The people creating this atmosphere are not necessarily young people at all. I would not want to say that. Some of the people have been involved before or involved in other parties, other groups and see an opportunity to come back.”
The (Riverside) CLP nominated Jeremy Corbyn by 117 to 37. And yet last year they nominated Yvette Cooper. That is a huge change.
“Well, that perhaps reflects the change in membership …”
There is this divide between CLPs, some of them anyway, and the parliamentary Labour party (PLP). You do not feel an obligation to reflect the CLP vote?
“No. I am a representative. I am not a delegate. I am elected by tens of thousands of people in Riverside and I also have responsibility to the constituency – but I cannot be instructed by people who turn up at a particular meeting. I listen. I have always attended every CLP meeting. I have produced a written report as well as speaking to it and answering questions. And I am accountable but I do not follow CLP instructions.”
Are there any issues over the last nine months or a year, say over Syria or Trident?
“There was a vote on Syria and the decision was that I should exercise my conscience and that was fully debated in the CLP. Varying views were expressed and I did vote for action on Isis and that followed a resolution that said that. Trident was also debated and no position was taken on that, and it was resolved that we should engage with the review which at that time was being carried out by Maria Eagle. Both of those topics were the subject of resolutions at the CLP, and fully debated and voted on.”
On the antisemitism, I think you said you would like to see more action taken. What kind of action would you like to see taken?
“I want to see action against people – and this is not exclusive to Riverside at all, it is the Labour party generally – where comments of an antisemitic nature are dealt with immediately, without people having to campaign. I think some slow progress is being made.”
It seems strange to me as an outsider – I am not a member of the Labour party or any other party – that somebody with antisemitic views would join the Labour party. It is not my experience of Labour members.
“Well the evidence is there from statements which have been made by people either at meetings or on social media. Antisemitism in the left is not a new phenomenon. It has always been around. But in recent years it has become acceptable, apparently more acceptable, in the Labour party. That is what has to be stopped.”
When you say it has always been there, I have always associated the early days of the Labour party with Jewish intellectuals. So they have always been integral to the Labour party.
“Yes. They have, but that does not mean there have not been other people around.”
On the party’s ruling national executive (NEC), there was that election a few months ago and there is now a solid pro-Corbyn majority. That kicks in this October. If Jeremy Corbyn wins the leadership contest, what do you think will happen then?
“Well we will have to see. People do not always form one bloc on all subjects. Often people have different views on different topics. I don’t think you can make assumptions.”
What are you thinking of?
“Just in general. You have just said to me there is a pro-Corbyn bloc there. Well what does that mean? There might be a majority that supports Jeremy Corbyn. That does not mean that on every issue that comes up on the NEC all those people will vote the same way. So let’s wait and see.”
If Corbyn wins, does the size of his majority matter?
“Let’s just wait and see.”
He has got the leadership, he has the NEC maybe. He does not have Labour party headquarters. You could see a general takeover.
“We’ll wait for events. I hope whoever is leader keeps sights on building up a credible opposition that can become the government. Unless we are a party of government, we are not able help the people we represent. I mean I have seen such differences when Labour was in government when I was first elected, and Liverpool benefited very greatly. Liverpool has been transformed since that time and a lot of it is due to the work of the Labour government. Unless we have that back, it is going to be very difficult.”
And you don’t think Jeremy Corby can win a general election?
“I don’t think he is credible. I don’t think he can reach out to enough people. I don’t think he can move from making statements of principles to working out policies to secure results.”
If he wins again, it is basically the status quo. The PLP continue to criticise him.
“Let’s see who wins first and we will assess the situation.”
The issue of deselection. Is that something that worries you?
“I think it is very unhealthy to build up an atmosphere of hostility to elected representatives, and people have to be judged on their merits. There is a system and always has been where if a majority of members of the CLP really do not want an MP elected again, they can change that and the MPs currently have to win a trigger ballot. And if they do not win that, there is a reselection. That is a reasonable way to deal with things. With boundary changes the whole thing will change anyway.”
How will that effect Merseyside?
“I don’t know. We are likely to lose a seat across Merseyside. I am not sure exactly how.”
It could be a de facto reselection process.
“That’s possible.”
