This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Anand Vardhan are joined by The Caravan’s Hartosh Singh Bal and Delhi University professor Tanvir Aeijaz.
The panel begins the show by discussing Narendra Modi’s meeting with Donald Trump which Manisha terms “a test of statecraft” for Modi. The discussion then moves to the Delhi election result, which saw the BJP returning to power after 27 years.
“This is a new BJP. It has gained strength since the 2024 Lok Sabha elections,” says Hartosh. “...These elections were not fought on Modi’s back. The party now has organisational strength. Even if Modi falls to the wayside, it does not make a difference to the BJP.” As the panel discusses the AAP and Congress’s performance, Abhinandan says, “One thing BJP has pulled off well is that they won Delhi without a [chief ministerial] face.”
Tanvir talks about the controversy surrounding the new UGC draft guidelines that give state governors a prominent role in selecting vice-chancellors. “This regulation comes in the backdrop of the idea that we need to have one curriculum, one education system across the country,” he says. “But education is a concurrent subject…everything in a monastic form creates a problem for federalism.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Hafta letters: Economies and ‘police states’, the question of ads, courts and parole
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Song: Another Brick In The Wall
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements
00:04:57 - Headlines
00:11:48 - Modi in America
00:18:20 - Delhi elections
00:45:13 - Manipur developments
00:51:20 - UGC guidelines
01:22:16 - Tanvir’s recommendation
01:29:55 - Hartosh’s recommendation
01:33:17 - Letters
01:46:01 - Recommendations
References
Support NL Sena - The Hindu Rashtra Project
Subscribe to Newslaundry
The Caravan
Modi-Trump press conference
Tanvir Aeijaz on the new UGC rules
Arun Shourie’s book on Savarkar
NL Hafta on revenue models
Recommendations
Tanvir
Zoya Hassan - Democracy on Trial
Yanis Varoufakis - Technofeudalism
Hartosh
From Where The Orders Came | The Caravan
Manisha
Samay Raina and BeerBiceps: There’s no formula to be safe in India
Lords of Earth and Sea: A History of the Chola Empire
Anand
Abhinandan
Would You Rather Be Rich In 1900, Or Middle-Class Now?
Why economists got free trade with China so wrong
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Ashish Anand.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a Newslaundry podcast and you're listening to Hafta.
Abhinandan: Welcome to another episode of Hafta. On a very special day. It's Valentine's Day, which you've got the LA from Jelly for you. Valentine's Jr. Yes. Punjabi Hot Lover. Milk Coffee. We were just discussing though. Benefits of black coffee before we started recording and Hartosh said, Kya yaar, bina doodh ke, no point having anything, so you might as well die anyways.
So that is, but since it's Valentine's Day, there is this QR code that is flashing in front of you. Uh, make independent media your valentine and gift the joint News Laundry News Minute subscription. to someone you love, or even someone you hate, because hate must eventually turn to love. Because as we've always said here, [00:01:00] no matter what your politics, who wins, who loses, you cannot dump half the people of your country into the ocean, saying that, Bhai, sorry, now you cannot.
We have to learn to live with each other. You may want to.
You see, we got the Punjabi lover here on Valentine's Day. So we record this on Friday, the 14th of February. At 11 in the morning, also joining us in the studio, the panelists today, our consulting editor and columnist, Anand Vardhan. One subscriber has raised objections that I always introduce as Vakil Saab or Judge Saab.
They say it's a very non serious way of introducing. Why do you do this? Do the official introduction. So. What is your official designation, Anna? I don't know even, I don't know. See, we What is your colonist? What is your official Managing editor? Managing editor, because I also call her people not take a objection that I haven't called you.
Editor of Caravan. I've called you Lover from Punjab. And Love is something
Manisha: that. Most people will not accuse Hartosh of, I mean, you're not known for loving, you're [00:02:00] known for hating, you're the hater. But see,
Hartosh: there, very seriously, she said the word lover is an accusation in itself, which I did not
Song: say.
Abhinandan: So, uh, but, we'll introduce Hartosh with courtesy.
Hartosh is a very well known journalist. Most of you have met him many times on hafta and read his stuff. She has been published in various publications around the world, but currently is executive editor of the caravan and has had many other important posts. He is also prominently featured in a podcast on Punjab.
Do check it out. Uh, he has written lots on that and also joining us today. It will be Tanvir Ejaz because like we promised you, we're going to be discussing the UGC guidelines, et cetera, et cetera. We've been promising you that for the last four or five weeks, so we will do that today. On that note, we also have two other projects, the Hindu Rashtra project, here's a QR code for that, where we're going to investigate villages that are building, you know, Hindu Rashtra.
They've declared themselves Hindu Rashtra, a school in Madhya Pradesh fired [00:03:00] a Muslim teacher after a communal clash. Signboards in Uttarakhand have come up for boycotting non Hindus. This is happening in at least four states. So we'll have Anmol, Preetam, Prateek, Goyal, Basant Kumar, and at least two or three producers going to Uttarakhand.
It's going to be a deep dive report. We'll be traveling extensively and that's going to be expensive. So do contribute so that we don't have to take money. From either Mukesh Bhai, or Gautam Bhai, or Narendra Bhai, or Aravind Bhai, or Rahul Bhai. Um, or all these people who give a lot of ads. We only depend on you.
Soros Bhai? Soros Bhai. Soros Bhai also doesn't give us. Batao yaar. Bloody hell. Oh, someone was You said You said I don't
Manisha: know. USAID, USAID people are saying we are getting money. USAID
Abhinandan: doesn't give money to private limited companies. Yeah. Guys
Hartosh: You buffoons at least get your facts right. USAID had a project in 2015 for Swachh Bharat, which was signed with Modi.
I mean, they don't forget. The Congress also forgets this fact.
Abhinandan: Even when they say, [00:04:00] even when they say Omdiyar, Omdiyar, they don't know how much they worked in the government of India. But okay, I mean, uh, the illiterates of the world, some of whom, uh, regularly feature on, uh, panels on mainstream. And I'm rather disappointed to say some journalists who running digital.
Operations also just for traffic, get these nutters, uh, thinking they're doing some intelligent discourse. People
Hartosh: you aim to love eventually.
Abhinandan: Yeah, I can still love them. What's there? So on that note, the Hindurashtra project do contribute to that and the Fight to Breathe campaign that is going to continue for the year.
Uh, the details are on our website. Please do participate because now the dirty air problem is not just a North India problem. It has reached Bangalore. Bombay, everywhere. So we all have to get together and hold those responsible accountable. Do that, scan this QR code and see how you can get involved. So [00:05:00] Manisha,
Manisha: Bombay has woken up to it suddenly.
Yeah. I'm seeing a lot of influencers, celebrities talking about air in Bombay. Okay. So Prime Minister Narendra Modi traveled to France and USA this week. He met newly elected US President Donald Trump at the White House. Trump announced that India plans to purchase more US fighter jets, while Modi said that India plans to double its trade with the US by 2030.
Trump, of course, also said that the tariffs are unfair, very unfair, and we will charge them as much as they charge us.
Speaker 5: All right.
Manisha: Modi also held meetings with Gabbard. In France, he met Emmanuel Macron. President, he discussed Russia, Ukraine, war, strategic partnership in defense, nuclear energy and technological sectors.
He was also the chair of the AI conference, right?
Abhinandan: Was he moi, was he the chair of the conference? He did speak. You can joke about everything, but, but, but, uh, I must say he seemed quite comfortable taking questions, uh, in the us, which I haven't seen him quite so comfortable. He was
Manisha: asked a question about Adani also.
-: Yeah. Thank you, Mr. President. Uh, can I [00:06:00] ask whether you discussed at all today the case of Katam Adani? Who's, uh, one of, well, the wealthiest men in Asia and perceived as an ally, prime Minister Modi, prime Minister Modi, have you asked the president to take action on that case? Thank you.
Manisha: A series of well choreographed developments in Manipur this week. Just a day before the no confidence vote against Chief Minister Biren Singh, he resigned. This led to President's rule being imposed in the state.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Had Biren Singh lost the no confidence vote, the state would have had to undergo an election.
So the center has managed to avoid that [00:07:00] very cleverly. But it should
Manisha: happen soon, right? There's no other way. How long can they have presidents rule them?
Abhinandan: They can choose another chief minister.
Hartosh: With them, anything is possible as long as they don't have to actually be accountable for what they do. The
Manisha: results for Delhi Vidhan Sabha polls were announced on Saturday.
It almost seems too long ago. The BJP in the national capital after 27 long years, scoring 48 out of 70 seats. Meanwhile, the incumbent AAP won 22 seats. And all the big wibs in AAP. Lost except Aatish Marlena.
Abhinandan: Correct. But, uh, we, uh, I think seven days on and we don't know who the Chief Minister is going to be yet.
Manisha: Now we'll know. Modiji's back. So there'll be some huddle and then he'll be present to bless the new Chief Minister of Delhi. A report by Washington DC based India Hate Lab revealed that anti minority hate speech in India rose by 74 percent in 2024. The Prime Minister also featured in the list of people who've indulged in hate speech.
Right. His speeches during the Lok Sabha. News from Parliament. Nirmala [00:08:00] Sitharaman introduced the new income tax bill. This will replace the six decade old income tax act. The JPC report on the vakf bill was tabled in the Rajya Sabha. Mallika Arjun Kharge alleged that dissenting remarks were deleted and opposition MPs staged a walkout.
Abhinandan: Yep.
Manisha: The Dhani group has withdrawn from the 484 megawatt wind project in northern Sri Lanka after the government in Colombo allegedly moved to renegotiate the terms of the project. Not allegedly, they wanted to. They were very clear about the fact that they want to renegotiate the terms. So Adani's walked out of this.
In what may be a relief for Adani though, U. S. President Donald Trump signed an executive order directing the Justice Department to pause prosecutions of Americans accused of bribing foreign officials to secure business deals. Quite something.
Abhinandan: The context is that Adani was indicted by the U. S.
Attorney's Office in New York for 265 million bribery and fraud case. Although Gautam Bhai himself was a name, but companies that he's associated with were. [00:09:00]
Manisha: What were the code names? There was a code name suggesting. Something
Hartosh: big, the big A or something. Including, if I'm not mistaken, his brothers and all.
The
Manisha: Election Commission of India cannot erase the poll results data from the electronic voting machine during the checking and verification of microcontrollers of EVMs. That's, that's what the Supreme Court said this week.
Abhinandan: And the Election Commission continues to cover itself in glory. We should just think the Election Commission should basically be.
Uh, instead of the constitutional body, it is a tiny body, which is monitored by the Supreme Court because everything that we told by the Supreme Court, because themselves are not doing anything properly, unfortunately.
Manisha: Days after seven states signed a resolution against the new UGC rules, education minister Dharmendra Pradhan said that the new rules seek to grant universities greater autonomy in selecting faculty while promoting inclusive development for state
Abhinandan: universities.
We shall discuss this in some detail.
Manisha: Donald Trump spoke to Putin and Zelensky over the phone. over a phone call and agreed to immediately start talks to end the Ukraine [00:10:00] war. Europe is very unhappy about this. They said they want a seat on the table. They want to be in on the talks. And I think Donald Trump suggested basically that, um, Kiev will have to give up the territory that's already with them and the long cherished dream of joining NATO.
So it's status quo, whatever the borders are. I don't know if it's exactly
Abhinandan: status quo, but at least they are getting the earlier victory, T, what was it, which they had taken? The south part of Ukraine. In 2012 or 14, whenever. Crimea. Crimea, yeah. YouTuber
Manisha: and influencer Ranveer Alabadia triggered a controversy this week after he made a comment on a digital show called India's Got Latent.
A Sam and Maharashtra police registered an FIR and a case was even discussed in the parliament and there's a joint parliamentary probe into it. Some 30 people have been summoned, all the judges of the show have been questioned, so it's quite a crazy call. And of course, Everyone in the media was obsessing over this case.
And
Hartosh: [00:11:00] 10 years got
Abhinandan: lated.
Manisha: 10 years got late.
Abhinandan: So we're not going to discuss in detail because it should not get the time of airtime it's getting. It's really unfortunate. I'm just saying I've got a, uh, SMS acknowledgement in, uh, on the 8th of April last year for a grievance because the news laundry site had been attacked in a very coordinated way.
A lot of money was spent. And the National Cyber Crime Reporting Portal has said yes. We have acknowledged your grievance. I haven't heard anything since I've asked a few times, but meanwhile, this has been very seriously. 30 people have been summoned. Tanmay Bhatt, all the comedians, Rakhi
Hartosh: Sawant. I
Abhinandan: think they've said they'll forgive him
Hartosh: if
Abhinandan: he can call
Hartosh: himself
Abhinandan: Ranbir Priyadaraji.
Yeah, really. So that's all we have to say on that. It's a disgrace. But before we come to the Delhi polls, which I'd like to talk about, I have one specific thing I want to discuss just briefly on the U. S. Uh, visit, uh, you know, [00:12:00] Anything, Hartosh, you want to say that was noteworthy, which, since we aren't discussing in detail, but it's just happening, even as we speak, the headline is about, you know, how Modi reacted to the question on Adani, where he said, when two world leaders meet, you don't discuss individuals.
Sare Bharatiya Mere Hain. Uh, but yet while, I mean, it was clear that Trump was showing a lot of warmth for Modi. Uh, but his utterances are very, that India charges very high tariffs. Yeah, he really went
Manisha: on and on about how unfair it is. But
Abhinandan: he kept adding, and Mr. Modi agrees. So I don't know whether any of the industry, Hero Honda and all are going to, when he comes in and says, you agreed with that?
Like Harley Davidson? I don't think any of them have asked the guts. But everything that Trump said, which was like hostile to India trade wise, He kind of ended the sentence by saying, and Mr. Modi agrees. So anything on this visit,
Hartosh: if you look at today's newspapers and most people don't look at them, but only the Tribune is leading with the headline that reciprocal tariffs [00:13:00] announced by Trump.
Yeah. Now, clearly you are inviting somebody home and hours before that you make the pointed statement that you will have reciprocal. It's already a sign, babe, sit down. And listen to what we are telling you. And we'll give you some PR as usual. That is what Modi wants. The French have also learned it.
Trump has made the decision in that what will Modi do about it? And Modi understands this, he's going to go pay court, come back claiming some concessions here, a biscuit thrown here and there. And the actual news is this, but none of our newspapers are focusing on what reciprocal tariffs. actually mean, who they will hit, what the consequences of this will be.
We'll find out soon enough, or if they are not imposed, they will be used to rest other concessions, which Modi's happy to grant as long as he gets to face the camera and say, my friend, Dolan and I basically had a good time basically.
Abhinandan: Do
Hartosh: you think anything noteworthy came out of this? Uh,
Abhinandan: have you followed it?
Although it's been very, it's not even 24 [00:14:00] hours,
Anand: it's still going on. Summit talks these days is a lot of peasantry. So, uh, the process would be a longer as though, uh, India and most of the rising powers are more focused now and not in the multipolarity of power system, but multi alignment, there is a difference.
We can talk about it later. So, uh, um. Ultimately, in the protracted process with other big powers, what will, uh, happen that, uh, this, uh, rising powers like India and with their, uh, of course, uh, considerable economic might are, uh, focusing on not putting all eggs in one basket. And With the new regime in Washington, they know that they have come with a kind of political mandate for their tariff rules and policy, and they will tune, uh, get into [00:15:00] tune with it in that, uh, um, more substantive process, which I think the Prime Minister's visit, uh, is not a, a clear indication of.
So, uh, more diplomatic parlays will follow and, uh, we will have to wait for the next few months. All right. I think this
Manisha: is a test of state draft and I think finally the Modi government will. have to seriously think of what it means to engage diplomatically because of the last five years it's just been a lot of U.
S. needs us, the world needs us, we are Vishwaguru, Jai Shankar Lal Ank, we'll show everyone everything and for some reason the Biden administration was very accommodative of that. Not for some reason, I think Europe and America were on the same page with regard to China and they invested in India, accommodated India, everything was backdoor, everything was hush hush and you know there was this Nice Modi getting his way.
Speaker 5: Hmm.
Manisha: I think all of that ends with Trump There's a lot of unpredictability and how he behave in [00:16:00] public and and I don't think there's that distinction within private public So now we'll actually see how they deal with in America, which they can't really make sense of
Abhinandan: right So we move on to the Delhi election before that.
I just want to recommend our audience What's the speeches at the AI conference in France? JD Vance's speech The vice president was there and Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the EU, even Modi spoke, I mean Modi's speech I mean you can watch it. I don't think you'll learn anything from that But what I thought was interesting in JD van speeches even when he's saying the most benign things He says it like a threat.
It's like he's there to fight with the EU, with everybody. This is America believes that, you know, artificial intelligence should be safe for all. And everybody believes the same. I mean, what you're saying is not controversial. Just, and also the U. S. have learned one thing from India, that in India, whether it's an MLA or a class monitor, or some random diagnostic lab who puts [00:17:00] out a front page ad, or Gal Gotya University who put out an ad yesterday or the day before front page, will always start Thank you, Modiji, for making Vixit Bharat and making our diagnostic lab possible, making our university possible, making my class cleaner, making my, you know, my skin better.
Everything is thanks to Modiji. Even J. D. Vance's speech was, you know, as Donald Trump. It's become very Modi esque.
Speaker 9: Our administration, the Trump administration, believes that AI will have countless revolutionary applications in economic innovation. The United States of America is the leader in A. I. And our administration plans to keep it that way and to safeguard America's advantage.
The Trump administration will ensure that the most powerful A. I. Systems are built in the U. S. With American designed and manufactured chips. Now, the president's recent executive order on A. I. We're developing an A. I. Action plan that avoids an overly precautionary regulatory regime. Yeah. [00:18:00] While ensuring that all Americans benefit from the technology and its transformative potential.
Uh,
Abhinandan: and Ursula von der Leyen's speech was so, um, I mean, just the tonal difference. And I think that's the America we're going to be dealing with. Even if you're, they're saying the most normal benign thing, they will say it, ki, salo baith, chai pee. You know, they will not say, baith ye, chai pee je. It was just a really dumb speech in tone, I thought.
And I think that's the new America we're going to deal with. Now let's come to the Delhi election. And I have, you know, called Hartosh because as you know, he's a huge supporter of Arvind and I'm a critic. So then we can, uh, get back on. So, you know, generally what do you make of the Delhi election, the result?
You know, did you think it would be like this? Is it unusual? Is it something? that Congress people thought will come back. They have resurgent or they're done in Delhi in the near term at least. What do you think?
Hartosh: First of all, [00:19:00] I don't know which Congress person thought they're coming back. I don't know in some deluded drawing room somewhere sitting there.
I think you may have had our reporter Sunil Kashyap here. We've had our pieces. I think he was spot on and we can run through what happened in the election later, but the consequences are very clear that if you look at the three parties, uh, The BJP is a new BJP. It has gained in strength since the 2024 elections.
Uh, but it has gained in a new way. And I would say today the BJP is stronger than it was in 2019. The BJP, uh, the equation between Modi and the RSS is substantially changed. People aren't paying enough attention to it. These three elections, state elections were not fought on the face of media or on the back of Modi or Modi.
So There is now organizational strength, which if tomorrow Modi falls by the [00:20:00] wayside, for whatever reason, will not make a difference to the control of the country. They've got that organization. It also means a change in, and you will see as we go along, between the relationship between Modi and the RSS.
Lip service will be paid now, but Modi can't treat Agawath as his henchman and tell him you come here, you go there, etc. That equation is changed quite subtly, but quite evidently. So that's where the BJP stands. So then for them, it's a huge success. Between the Congress and the ARP, I'm today in the unfortunate position of maybe tending to agree more with you and Yoginder, which is like one of the impossible situations I didn't want to find myself in, which is that.
I will call this the Pratap Bhanu Mehta
Speaker 5: syndrome
Hartosh: that in 2014, just because the Congress was a corrupt, inefficient government run badly over four years. And there was media hype with these sanghi backed up people, et cetera, that you actually thought [00:21:00] Modi is the better alternative. And there are today congressmen who otherwise seem to claim they are right in the head.
Who are actually celebrating the a defeat and welcoming of bgp. Is that right?
Song: Yeah,
Hartosh: all of them are. The deli unit
Song: was pretty, all
Hartosh: the deli unit and all the Cory around Raul is very, very happy. There's no secret why, why should we hide this fact? Yeah, I have not. And the Cory around Raul is like fools who will say what is necessary about Raul that fought.
A good election, give it to them. It was much closer than even the exit polls predicted. It was 2%. They ran over the last three years, the government in shambles, thanks to the effort of the BJP and the LG combined. Absolutely. Some of that propaganda stuck about the chief minister's house, et cetera. And I would love to see Narendra Modi's house also opened up in the same way and other houses, but that's okay.
Kejriwal dug his own sort of grave on such matters by posturing as a man who [00:22:00] is this clean up man, corruption man, keep a simple house. Then there's nothing to show. Even if you show some glitz, it is going to be used. You are playing against the BJP. So some of that was there. Some of it was how the BJP effectively played the mobilization of communities and costs from the Jats to the Gujjars, how they broke them.
We're both using the ID. Gaylord and others were broken away. So the op didn't have a prominent jarred face to show. So some of the aura and it's a third term had worn off. I personally feel the biggest loser in this election. Is the Congress party. It's more than irrelevant. It is the messaging you are giving.
You know, you are, first of all, No ally trusts you
Abhinandan: also.
Hartosh: Nobody trusts you. What is the messaging you are giving? Sandeep Dixit is happy about what? I mean, without This is our PT Usha syndrome, we have come fourth, so we have won a medal. I mean, what is this [00:23:00] thing? You've got 5000 votes as a prominent politician.
This is your great claim to elections. And if you look at the Congress through this, no ally trusts you. You are behaving like a villager. In a feud, where it doesn't matter who your biggest opposition, your enemy is, that person took my eye out, I will take his eye out. And this is what the party is reduced to.
It is incapable of organizational politics. Forget the ideological point of view. And in all this, if the liberal says that the ARP stayed silent on Muslims, yes, it did. The ARP did not do anything that was necessary. poster Delhi riots did not take stands. All that is important. But in the end, you are choosing between bad alternatives.
You make your decision. Which
Abhinandan: is the whole thing of politics is a menu that you're given. It's not a buffet. Take what you want. Uh, you have anything on the election result? Does it, what, what does it throw up? I think the one thing that is [00:24:00] commendable with the BJP's pull off is that today's day and age, and I've maintained that for a long time, that You know, personalities are bigger than organizations today, whether it's a Trump, Bolsonaro, that Argentine guy who took that chain, so I've forgotten his name.
You know, social media influencers matter more than the brand. Uh, and they've won an election in Delhi without a face, which I think is amazing. We still don't know who the chief minister is going to be.
Anand: I think in, uh, more simple terms, it was basically a vote between a transactional vote and anti incumbent vote.
So transactional vote in terms of the beneficiaries of the freebies that are offered, and anti incumbency, which is a natural occurrence I would say, which has. Preity attached to it, or five years sell by date or 10 years now. The question was whether the anti incumbent vote is going to have some same transactional effect, and BJP made a lot of [00:25:00] effort in convincing a sizeable section of electorate that the Frees will continue.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, Mr.
Abhinandan: Modi said it in most of his speeches,
Anand: also, the door to day door campaigning. Also, it was also an election in the neighborhoods I saw that the election didn't have any budge and I didn't see much campaigning in the areas I live, uh, possibly a lower middle class area in North Delhi, but I didn't, it didn't seem that an election is happening.
From the both parties. The campaigning was very low key for. And, uh, uh, third is that, uh, uh, of course the organizational strength that Mr. Bal was talking about that, uh, added to, uh, the push factors in I think last 15 days. But, uh, uh, BJP was also very, hmm. [00:26:00] Uh, focused on one factor that was always going to in some election.
play to their advantage is that they were starting with a baseline of 36 percent votes. So in, in 2020 also, and even before that, when ARP swept with 67 seats, they had 35 and 36 percent votes. So, uh, it's a good baseline to start with and you have to add just 10 percent votes more. It is just the first past of the post system that.
It was not giving an actual reflection of the vote strength they had in the, even in Delhi assembly polls. So 35 percent and in Lok Sabha elections, it flips if that 51 percent they breached the 50 percent mark in Lok Sabha and around 35%, 32, 35 percent in last three years, Lok Sabha. So that they worked on.
And, uh, the anti [00:27:00] incumbency factor and a lot of other factors, like in the neighbor, uh, say the peripheral area of Delhi, a lot of, the HD did a data piece on that, a lot of areas have come up with a new, new, with new segments of electorate and you have to appeal to that. And, uh, that they, maybe they, They took into account that also the focus on that.
Anything you want to add? I think
Manisha: the key sentiment that we were getting from our reporters in Delhi was that Uh, if AAP comes to power and they actually can't do much, it's just better to go with the BJP. And this is in a place where this city is not averse to the BJP, right? Lok Sabha more than 50%. So it's a bully having won.
Yeah. So there's this practical choice. And I think, uh, what was Kejriwal's slogan in 2020, that PM Modi in the center and me in the state. So even he knows that this is a city that there's no aversion to BJP, say for example, or there's no fear of an outsider BJP. You can't regroup people along linguistic lines or whatever.
So I think. [00:28:00] There's a very clear choice between many of the voters that we get BJP that can get our work done or we get up and we again have a stalemate for the next four years. So they
Abhinandan: may not dislike us but they know that they can't get anything done. Despite
Manisha: this sentiment for them to get 40 percent votes, more than that.
is I think quite something. And so I would not dismiss, you know, like the op eds that Delhi has rejected freebies or Delhi has rejected ARP's politics. I think this is a huge sentiment. It's a practical sentiment to have. And despite that, if they're able to garner 40 percent votes, it's something. The other thing, I think organizational game, we were hearing a lot from our reporters that we weren't seeing ARP workers on the ground, you know, even on the day of the election, BJP had a lot of people on its table.
It was, you know, getting people, ARP would have won. So. This is important. Why? When you make, when you're a political worker, one of the reasons why you become a political worker is to get people's work done. And how do you become important in the scheme of politics? If you have political aspirations, it's [00:29:00] to be able to have the, you know, the clout to get people's work done.
Now with ARP, No political worker can get their work done or claim in their neighborhood that I can get your work done. So there's no incentive to carry on with the party when you don't have izzat back in your own neighborhood, back in your own little, you know, constituency, that he got his work done. So if you take that away, then you have, you can mobilize on ideology.
You can't get any work done. No up guy can get any work done because of LG. So there's that sentiment that there's no They actually aren't empowering. So
Abhinandan: that's strategy work, basically.
Manisha: Yeah. So that de, that demotivates the worker. And apart from that, then there's ideology you can motivate on the basis of ideology and up.
I do agree with that criticism of the past four or five years at least. It hasn't given us a strong ideological understanding of why they're against the BGP. In fact, like I said, in 2020, there's PMO, the at the center, Vale and State.
Speaker 5: Hmm.
Manisha: Even and the [00:30:00] criticism among a lot of despondency among Muslim voters, although they did strategically, then a lot of them did vote for up, but there is that despondency among specially urban educated Muslims.
Who were saying we don't want to vote for this party because where does it stand on the key issue of what is it defining politics against the BJP? There's no clear answer to that. So, no, so I think that kind of also, thoda thoda chips away from
Abhinandan: So, you know, I read a lot of analysis and stuff, which, I mean, I don't seem to understand politics.
electoral politics that well, although, because full disclosure, I was very much involved in the 2012 13 election, the first one, the 40 day election, which was that, because that time the NGO had just transitioned to a party, there was no media head, there was nobody, everyone was just swimming and doing whatever the hell we could.
Uh, but so I do understand how Election is fought because I was very much involved in [00:31:00] the Nukkad Sabha. The one aspect, and you know, you also said that RSS, the RSS angle, which I can say with certainty is this kind of story that has viral. In fact, Jagdish sir, who I have a lot of love and respect for Choker, uh, but he at least has, has made it clear that he's speculating that RSS has dumbed up, that he's saying that going by how RSS props up.
people or parties outfits that they need and then they shut them down when they're not needed. They could have done the same with us, but he's made very clear that is a speculation. He has not claimed that he has on any good authority that it was a RS. But, you know, Shekhar in his video has said with authority as if he has documents to prove that the whole ISE strategy was done in the Vivekananda Foundation.
I can tell you with certainty because I was one of the first 12. In Parivartan, before it became PCRF, which kind of snowballed into the India Against Corruption movement. [00:32:00] I was sitting one day in the Rajya Sabha studio set, this is when the UPA was around, and there were three quote unquote senior journalists, um, I remember the face of one, he has a scar somewhere on his face, I think he was the editor of the Hindi version of Hindustan Times, I've forgotten his name, but I'll recognize him if I see him.
And of course, they didn't know who I was, it was for them sitting, and they were very close to the Congress. And they were saying, yeh jo chal raha hai na, that time the ARP hadn't happened yet, but it was the, the ISE was at its peak. Haan, yeh toh, inhone, RSS inko paisa dera hai, yeh kar raha hai. So, of course, they didn't know who I was because, not that I'm anyone now, but those days I hadn't even appeared on panels.
So, I said, you know, just want to say that I have just signed the cheque for Anna's air ticket income. And if anyone wants to do an audit, go pull out the PCRF accounts, see who was signing the cheques every time Anna decided. And I used to get really irritated, I used to say, Arvindu, there's no money in the fucking bank.
Anna decides I want to come here with 30 lakhs. [00:33:00] So the people who helped, Shri Shri Ravi Shankar's Gautam Vij and his brother, they're lovely people. They've offered very often, we'll do an Art of Living session with the staff of News Laundry because we're very stressed out. I've said no. Often the tambu was theirs.
I know many people who sent packets of water, this thing. But this thing that this was some strategy that the Vivekananda Foundation dude, the kind of ultra left communists who even I disagreed with, who were part of that. Kotori. It was this snowball. So I just want to say that there is, I challenge anyone to give evidence that this entire app thing is RSS backed.
I can give you evidence that it is, I mean, you really think Yoginder and Prashant would sit in a team that is being organized by the RSS. So why does that narrative get so much traction? Because I see responsible columnists also now they think that's. Part of the deal, which, which it's not, [00:34:00] I can tell you with certainty, IAC was never an RSS creation.
Just to give you an example, the first Mithuri sat, this is the RTI days, and there was this one MP from the North East, I've forgotten his name, who was also a supporter of UPA. We said, please don't go on stage. Because it'll become political. So Ra and that gentleman from the, they sat in the, or this thing with us, Arun and Arvin were on stage.
Um, and then during the movement, when Ram, they tried to hijack it. And again, I can tell you, I can tell you Navin, who was tis former husband, who's wrestlers were a security when ram, they came on stage and took over the mic. I was told by Manish from the stage. Start making a noise because we don't want this guy here and it was pissing off a lot of people.
So then many of us started saying, get him off stage, get him off stage. Some said some nasty stuff. Ramdev figured out that I should get the fuck out of here. He left and he never came back. That's when he started his own this thing because there were a [00:35:00] lot of people there. They said, we are not going to let, but yes, Srisri's team helped us, but it was never this.
Conspiracy, anyone joined
Manisha: in, but it's not like, yeah, it was, I don't understand
Abhinandan: how that has become
Hartosh: that
ask. I think it was backed by the RS because whether you wanted the RSS or not, the RS was backing it. The, the, so, so was the 84 violence conducted by the Congress, but it was backed by the rss. Yeah. So, so the, the question is, where does the RSS come in? Where does it fit in? It does fit in very well. In that convergence of interest, you can go back to the JP movement.
You can see other socialist movements failing to understand what the RSS gets out of a movement and where it sits politically is also an important political failure not to understand where and which political target you have. Yes, the Congress was a huge problem, but did that make the RSS right or that you could Go walk along with their support.
Did that [00:36:00] make it right? I think that was a big error. And in terms of the people that were mobilized, the people who joined part of the movement, a huge amount of RSS organizational strength went into that. Whether you were seeking that Strength or not didn't matter in the sense there was a convergence of interests at that point of time.
And the RSS was quite open about it.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But
Hartosh: for example, Anna Hazare himself, now, for example, Anna was just incidental to it. He came in much later. He was a man who whipped people around and you were projecting him. Once, he did that once, but I'm just saying. Once or how many times? Come on, don't say once.
It was once. That's why it's still terrible. No, no, dude, it happened
Abhinandan: once. At his village and I have photographs of the village and I'll come to that later. That's a longer discussion because I should, I should do a longer, you know, first person account of that. But when the first night and realized a lot of people are coming and people are not going back.
This is before I moved to Ramlila Mantar. When I needed rock stars like Rocky and Mayu to come and say that so that other people will come. The first [00:37:00] set of mattresses was sent by the Gurdwara in CP. Is that to say that the SGPs But Hattush, when you say The
Hartosh: emergency movement, the Akalis were the biggest participants in the anti emergency movement.
That the RSS did not gain and substantially back the RSS movement. It wasn't
Abhinandan: their brainchild. It does not
Hartosh: mean brainchild or organized, but the fact is that the RSS will work together without any pushback from the side is very clear. The distancing from the RSS never took place. Nobody said we don't want these guys.
This is not the shit that we want along with us. This is not the ideology we stand for. This was never from the
Abhinandan: RSS was part of.
Hartosh: The core committee of the ISC, not a single person. What was the ideological position till now? The ARP doesn't have a position on communal issues, still doesn't articulate it.
The problem is that this is the neutrality on these positions. The weakness of standing up for saying this is what is wrong or right has always dogged the ARP movement from the beginning.
Abhinandan: On the Kashmir issue when Prashant had to step back because he articulated his view on [00:38:00] the Kashmir issue and anyway, you were saying something.
I'm
Manisha: saying that when you say backed by the RSS, It's different from joining in. Like, do you mean they just joined in and they were never kind of up or whatever the IAC members never took a position to distance themselves versus the suggestion that they were backing in terms of money, in terms of Planning how the protest will be.
The whole
Abhinandan: Vivekananda foundation is the brainchild, that I don't understand, like, I didn't even know what the fuck Vivekananda foundation was back then, you know.
Hartosh: I'm drawing the same parallels. It is not as if they stood there, but there was no attempt to draw the line when they were very much part of a movement that was gaining effort or mileage at that point of time, working in tandem in their own way with nobody.
ever drawing a line and saying, these are not the people we want along with us. They didn't
Manisha: clarify their position or deliberately.
Hartosh: So
Manisha: because the goal, I guess, was just to rally around anti corruption, then you get
Abhinandan: everyone instance on that. But you have any take on this, on the narrative that this was, [00:39:00] so I'll tell you, this is, I think in 2000.
Six or seven. I may get the year wrong. Uh, K S Sudarshan was the Sarsanchalak of the RSS. Six, seven yoga. I'm guessing maybe eight. Yes. Uh, and, um, Arvind Manish and I had, we were conducting these RTI camps all over the country. There was this big ghoosko ghoosa. We had met Digvijay Singh in South Avenue, North Avenue.
His flat was, I think the second or third, if you go down North Avenue from, uh, he of course wanted to undercut Manmohan and his gang. Because he was team Sonia and there was a, he says, I'll help you set up these RTI camps because Sonia was pro RTM and Manmohan was anti RTI. So we said, okay, if you're going to, if your workers can help set us, set up camps in Boulogne sur Mer and all.
Yes. As long as RTS are filed and people get accountability that Hamara paisa, hamara haq. We met Mr. K. Sudarshan also. And I was there in that meeting. Uh, and I remember at that time, uh, because My view on RSS and also Arvind's view on RSS was not very distant from mine. Today he can't say it because [00:40:00] politics changes people.
He had said Arvind, you know RSS runs these schools for very bright kids who are not supposed to crack the UPSC so that they can have their people in, uh, what are those? He says, you come and train those. Now we had gone like, you know, that had said, I will get congress workers to help you know, this big, and of course that map was nowhere near the scene.
No one even had thought that there'll be election. I'm talking 2006, seven said the communists were helping us in states where they were possible. RTI was the main thing R, that you come and teach our children. Uh, for the UAPSE for the last stage so that they can crack the exam. Arun was very uncomfortable with this.
So he said, yaar, how do I get out of this? I don't want to do this. I don't train RSS to get. He says, theek hai. We'll hold a press conference that we are doing these exams to get RSS people into this thing and then I'll do it. Because he knew, he's a nanny. Agar aapko itna shor macha na phir rehna hi do.
That's how he got out of it. So [00:41:00] I'm saying first hand. It's not second hand. Yes. In those days, he was that. Love all hate nobody. Why do we have to do this? Of course, Arvind today is very different from Arvind 20 years ago. But if you were to see it in the context of saying Sitaram can come as part of the coalition, you know, it was not And that we will solve Kashmir crisis.
Of course, the problem in politics is now you have to have a position in everything, but I see, you remember, right, when Prashant was ticked off that why do you talk about Kashmir? We have nothing to do on Kashmir. We are just wanting Janlokpal. That is all I'm saying. There are, it, the context is important, which is why when I saw Shekhar's video that this was, this plan was hatched in the Vivekananda Foundation, I was really like, I don't get that.
That's all. I
Hartosh: think the criticism that was coming up at that point of time, and we were among at that time in that heady period among the strong critics, especially because of people like Anna Azari. But two things. One was [00:42:00] this failure to articulate on very important public positions. The second, and this is again, continue to dog the app.
is how do you engage with the question of caste in this country? And the up has failed miserably. One of the things that failed over the last five years is in the programs that they had specifically announced for Dalits without implementing them, withdrawing them, having people leave the party. Because right from the beginning, from the years you were with Arvind Kejriwal, he was an anti reservation man.
He was going around town talking about this idea of merit that continues to dog the mindset of the upper caste in this country. That is something has changed now. There are many things he has to change, but it hasn't changed enough. So that they, outside Delhi and outside Punjab, why do they run into problem with politics?
These are the two places where you can do viable. politics without necessarily understanding caste structures because Sikhism posits a very different kind of problem in Punjab. It has its own caste hierarchy, but it doesn't operate in the same rules that a [00:43:00] lot, even Haryana does. Which is why they played up the desecration of Iqra.
Many other things come into factor. And OP has never been able to understand how you operate outside this area. How do you this? And with the loss of
Manisha: the selection, this is something they really have to think now think, which is in a way a good thing for the party. Mm-hmm. You have to think about identity issues.
How do you actually respond to the BGP on the issue of communalism?
Speaker 5: Mm.
Manisha: Because we have not heard anything on that from them.
Hartosh: And the last thing, I mean, BGP says
Manisha: that Rohingya is a problem. App says go to every school and check the Rohingya kids. What
Hartosh: Bangladeshi There is an echo. But the one last thing, and I think the Congress also has to learn that I actually am myself a strong opponent of the term freebies when it is used in the context of, uh, I think we are post liberalization, one of the stupidest countries in our sort of capitalist structure, not Western Europe, not the U S has this lack of security at the bottom for People, there is where the government does not intervene in any [00:44:00] real measure to help our people, whether it's healthcare, education, these are not freebies.
This is a segment that has stayed with us for good reason. These were not freebies. This is what governance is supposed to grant to people. Even now it is
Abhinandan: the poor that has It's remained overwhelmingly with up, it's just the middle class and the rich that have moved away. So the
Hartosh: income tax rebates are not freebies, but these things are consistently counted.
I think these are necessary aspects. If the Congress has to fight these elections, it has to understand that there is a space for a social Democrat formation, which. It is not about shouting at Adani. It is what is this alternate vision you give to a large mass of these people in the country.
Manisha: And where do your allies fit into that?
Like, how do you guys come together? Actually, in a cohesive way, state after state, there seems to be a complete lockdown. I think that's
Abhinandan: one thing what Hartoj said Rahul has really failed at is like you have an Aditya Thackeray came and met Arvind. You know, Akhilesh's view, people don't see either Rahul as a personal friend or Congress as an ideological friend.
That is something Congress has failed to do to keep its [00:45:00] friends, friends.
Hartosh: If you are the biggest national opposition, you have to show the magnanimity. You can't reduce, I'm not saying our behaved very well with the Congress, it didn't. But then if you are no different and you can't win the elections that up can fight elections a little better than why, what are you as a party?
Abhinandan: Before we, you know, move on to UGC and other issues. Um, because on this Manipur thing, um, anyone has any, because it didn't get the kind of coverage that I thought it should get because this immensely important thing of Ranveer via biceps became the, but, uh, the BJP managed to pull off very cleverly avoiding a midterm poll and the optics.
Not to say that, you know, losing an election, Manipur would have a huge, but you know, BJP has gotten to the heads of people that we are always winning, winning, winning. So even losing a Manipur will make that narrative go. Uh, [00:46:00] how they pulled this off. And what it means because today's paper says, I think the meti groups are unhappy that it's governor's rule.
I think today's express has covered that. What are the implications of that? And why has the BJP, you know, how have they convinced Biren Singh to resign? Because one theory also in the rounds is that the court had asked for the forensic examinations of his voice and it has come like 95 percent accurate and they will have to now submit that in court and court will say something.
So that's why he resigned. , how, how does this impact things on the ground and manipul, you know, do you have some insight into that or do you have a reporter there who's filled you anything?
Hartosh: Look, we've reported so far on the ground, the, I do not claim to have particular insights on how this is happening, but I mean, there is a larger problem that the BGP is running into and it's trying to solve through it.
Mm-hmm. It, it, it basically ran, which is what it specializes in. an ethnic approach to a state where you [00:47:00] basically made what was an ethnic hoodlum of one community into the chief minister and bolstered him through a period when this violence was carried out in some senses. Yeah. Now to withdraw this kind of support is not easy because you tend to then lose the support of the vast, the majority that has given you that consolidation in a state where you did not have a presence.
Uh, In this space, how do you operate when every normal norm of law and order policing governance had been violated? Your central forces, which is under Amit Shah, are clashing with forces that Biren is handling. Uh, so, Between local support and what is just the bare capacity of governance, they were falling into this trap.
They are trying to manage it by getting Biren out in a way that does not alienate the BJP politically from the state. And they are trying to manage it to the best they can. But they have no [00:48:00] other greater intentions of, uh, trying to necessarily, uh, make sense of a state where communities have to live with each other.
That's never been their interest anywhere in the country. They live and thrive of conflict as long as that conflict can be managed and kept at a level where they can gain from it.
Abhinandan: But, uh, you have any take on Manipur, will this governor's rule You know, positively impact things there. Will it help BJP?
What, how does it help anyone anyway?
Anand: It is, the assembly is in suspended animation. So, uh, suppose, uh, if they find a way out in having another chief minister, that's always a possibility now also, but I don't think they will go for it. The president's rule will, uh, extend till the next elections are held.
What's the rule? Six months? Uh, it would need to be ratified every six months. So, uh, that, that is one [00:49:00] second, uh, sorry, how long was
Abhinandan: the maximum it can go for?
Anand: Six months at a time and, uh, then it would have to be ratified again.
Abhinandan: No, but is there a limit or you can keep getting gratified? No, no, it
Anand: has.
Abhinandan: Achha,
Anand: okay.
So, so, uh, uh, second, uh, of course, it leadership's, uh, um, uh, support was withdrawn to begin. So, that, that is the reading people have of, uh, that's the obvious reading. And, um, I think the political management, uh, of it is now going to be that, uh, anyway center was in control. So, uh, remove this face and, uh, uh, the community community say the popular perception is that, that, uh, it was catering to a particular strong men of a community.
So, One way of doing it is to opposite the, a strong man and try to resolve the [00:50:00] crisis. And second is that, uh, even, uh, remove that er and, uh, have that hand of a central control and try to do it in the interregnum. So that, that seems to be the obvious. Reading from my side, the
Manisha: JP cookie, Emilys had been in talks with Han, they'd been abandoning this for a while.
And I think there was a lot of pressure from within the BJP unit, which they just couldn't ignore anymore. But how does it help Manipur? It's in such a mess that I really don't know. I mean, there's complete division. We still have students who've not been able to go to Imphal. There's a complete separation of the hill areas and the valley.
I don't think you can fix this problem now with just politics in mind. It requires real leadership and intent, which we don't have. But,
Abhinandan: uh, great. We have our next guest joining us, but before I introduce him, I want to remind you again, here's a QR code. Do contribute, pay to keep news free, because when the public pays, the public is served.
We are an ad [00:51:00] free platform. We take ads from nobody. Future lovers, past enemies, past friends, future agnostics, nobody. We only depend on you. So please scan the QR code. Gift a Valentine's subscription to someone you love or hate. And help journalism survive, because without that, democracy can't. So joining us on Google is our next guest, Professor Tanvir Ejaz.
Welcome Tanvir.
Speaker 10: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me at the show.
Abhinandan: My pleasure. Uh, I'll just introduce you with your titles, et cetera, to our audience. Uh, Tanvir is Associate Professor at Ramjas College, which was just behind my former My college, Hansraj, back in the day, Delhi University, he was appointed Honorary Lecturer Extraordinary at Stellenbosch, Bosch University, pronouncing that incorrectly, I'm sure.
Speaker 10: Yeah, Stellenbosch, South Africa. Yes. Between 2021
Abhinandan: and [00:52:00] 2023, he's Honorary Vice Chairman at Center for Multilevel Federalism, New Delhi, and also writes regularly at the Express and Outlook Magazine. You can check out his column. The link is in the show notes below on the UGC rules. Uh, it'll give you some sort of an idea of what exactly the context is and why this is the simmering tension is playing up.
But before we get into the discussion, Tanvir, could you, by the way, in the studio, there's Anand, Manisha, Hartosh, Singhbal from the caravan, and I'm Abhinandan.
Speaker 10: Nice to meet you all guys.
Abhinandan: If you could just briefly tell us. What is the proposal? What is the context and what in your view, uh, will the implications be?
Speaker 10: Uh, so, uh, this UGC draft regulation, you know, uh, has come at a time when, uh, uh, you know, this whole in the backdrop of, uh, the idea that, uh, we need to have, you know, sort of one curriculum across the country. We need to have, uh, one, uh, Sort of education system across the country. So that's, [00:53:00] that's the larger take, you know, on education, but the point is that education is in the concurrent list, right?
And, uh, both the states and the center, they have their powers to legislate on it. And, uh, and of course, uh, uh, the states, uh, in the states, we find the state universities and all those universities, they have their own acts. So, uh, I mean, uh, uh, Kerala university act or for that matter, we are university act or whatever.
So universities have their own acts. They pass the laws for running the, uh, universities. And, uh, central universities, of course, uh, they are done by the center. Uh, but you know why? It's very interesting and very fascinating also because, because you know, earlier the education was in the state list, right?
Uh, at the time of independence when, uh, and most of the good, I would say good federal countries also, you'll find education in the state list, right? Because, you [00:54:00] know, I mean, in federal countries, of course, uh, Uh, the states, uh, normally, you know, I mean, they are formed in a way in which, of course, they have different culture, different language.
And the idea of federalism is that how, how the pluralism can be accommodated in the larger modern nation state. So that's the idea of federalism. And of course, education being part of the state is a concern because, uh, normally language and culture becomes so important. Right. So, uh, in the backdrop where you see so many states having their own acts and, uh, states having their own universities.
Now the center in the process of centralization, I mean, you must have seen, uh, uh, that there is, there is a tendency of, uh, centralization. Right. And what do I mean by centralization is that, uh, the institutions which are supposed to work, you know, for let's say state level institutions, which are supposed to work at the local level, you know, institutions, which are supposed to work independently [00:55:00] of the central ministry or central government.
You know, they are finding it difficult for themselves to carry out their functions because there is a tendency of centralization through various institutional and intergovernmental mechanisms, right? Now, education, of course, is one of the ways in which the present government thinks that, you know, we can control over the whole, uh, Uh, education system of the country.
Abhinandan: Or the narrative of what
Speaker 10: people are studying, what you're training
Abhinandan: them to be.
Speaker 10: That's right. That's right. And, and in fact, education is a very important agenda of this political party, which has formed the government at the center, right? Because they want, uh, uh, you know, sort of, uh, brainwashing students, right, at the school level, at the, at the, at the, uh, college level, at the university level.
So this whole brainwashing idea, you know, which is very prominent in psychology, if you read psychology, what, how does it happen? So this brainwashing is, has to be done at the school level. So therefore you see a lot of changes, but I'm not getting into the [00:56:00] school. The school has a very different terrain, but of course there also, there are a lot of problems.
What I'm trying to say is that at the university level, Right. Uh, uh, this whole idea of one nation, one curriculum, one framework, one, uh, sort of, you know, everything, everything in a monistic form rather than in a plural form, uh, that, that creates a problem for the whole idea of federalism, which of course is the basic structure of the constitution.
Abhinandan: And education is impacted severely. So just to, you know, simply put for many of our audience that. UGC, which is the University Grants Commission, what this says is that the governors, which are appointed by the center, will pick the VCs of universities. So therefore, the hiring basically similar to what LG was doing in Delhi.
on all departments. That is what this is going to do. So, so, and that has caused concerns. And I mean, I think science is how they are taught, where they are taught is pretty much the same. I think basically the tussle is for history. And if I can give a little context, uh, I don't know whether it was [00:57:00] initiated, whether it was swung by the MEA, at least from some people I've spoken to the purpose, I mean, of, uh, Narendra Modi going to Marseille, I don't know how to pronounce it
So that he can bring up Savarkar. That Savarkar had this brave escape from here. In fact, if you read Arun Shourie's book and Savarkar's own words, when he jumped from that ship, it was just about 10 12 feet to the He just like kind of waded there and got onto the road when a French cop caught him and said, who are you?
And then he said, take me to the police, et cetera. Whereas, you know, the legend has it that he jumped off and he battled the waves and swam whatever, half a kilometer, one kilometer to the shore of Marseille and all. So it is the creating this myth of Savarkar and Savarkar has written that in his own words.
No one has quoted him. So I highly recommend you read Arun Choudhury's book on that. The battle is for history and the state universities. appointed their own chancellors, which was coming under the state of the chief minister had more [00:58:00] influence. And now the governor will have more influence. That is what the battle is all about.
Now, Anand, you have, you know, trained to be bureaucrat, you are studying law. I mean, you would have a interesting technical perspective to this. What do you think are the pros and cons of this? And is the battle basically for history?
Speaker 10: It's not only about history, it's about science also. You know, I mean, you have seen the science curriculum also. They have tried to, uh, you know, chop off a lot of things, you know, which goes against their perception of. Rationality. So that go back and not absorb
Hartosh: radioactivity of uranium. And it has impact on medical research on various research, what your focus is.
It's
Speaker 10: about, it's about the knowledge system, actually, you know, I mean, in the name of. Indic knowledge system. All kinds of [00:59:00] Renaissance understanding is being debunked. So I don't know whether they are postmodernist or ancient, what they are, but the point is that they are not accepting what modernity is, what rationality is, what Renaissance talked about.
You know, all these things are being debunked. So, so that's the major problem. But I think the question of UGC draft regulation concerns more about control through governors. So, I think that was the, I think we should move towards that discussion, right? Anand.
Anand: Yeah. I think, uh, on the constitutional question, uh, there are two things.
First is, as Professor, uh, Azaz pointed out that, Uh, in the concurrent list entry 25, it's a, uh, both state, uh, since it is concurrent list, both center and state can legislate, uh, on, uh, say education, which is includes a school education, uh, higher education, medical and means technical education, but that is subject [01:00:00] to.
Uh, entry 20, uh, entry 66 of the union list Article 2 46. So that is subject to it, and that is in union list that gives the Center the edge over it. Hmm. So, uh, they're using that basically. Yes. So con uh, the EE the higher education from the time of the pro promulgation of the Constitution has been, is in the union list in, in, uh, 66 Union List, article 2 46, and.
Uh, the concurrent list, which professor has rightly pointed out that it was through 42nd Amendment in 1946, that it came 76, yeah. Yeah. 1976. It was during emergency that, in fact, in the, uh, Madras High Court, the DU government, uh, recently went to when it said that the, uh, this amendment, uh, in 1976, it has, uh, uh, tilted the scale, uh, uh, uh.
[01:01:00] So, uh, so, uh,
Speaker 10: in fact, uh, 42nd amendment was a process towards
Song: centralization,
Speaker 10: right? If you look at the contents of 42nd amendment, it was all, uh, you know, indicating that, uh, Uh, we are moving towards more centralization. So the whole idea of, but very interestingly, you know, education, I mean, I don't know, uh, how much higher education in which way, uh, in the union list, of course, it's all about maintenance, but surprisingly 73rd amendment, you know, local self panchayati raj system and municipalities, you'll find that the education is listed over there at the local level.
Right. Uh, in the 11th and in the 12th schedule, education is mentioned. So the idea is that education can be there at the local level, right? And at the central level, but not at the state level. In the state list, you will not find even a single item, [01:02:00] uh, calling education. So they have picked it up and it's process of centralization, but through governor.
Governor is subterfuge, you know, I
Abhinandan: think the misuse of governor is always been a case, but it's reached a level which we've, at least I haven't seen in the living memory, but yeah, finish your thought on it.
Anand: So what's the, um, uh, the current, um, Rules are draft rules. They have been put, I think, for a month for public comments and feedback.
So, uh, what it is saying is this, that not directly governor, but governor, uh, would, uh, say, uh, uh, appoint a such committee of out of which one would be the Raj Bhavan say that is governor and the second would be a UGC person and the third one would be from the university that is you can assume a state government.
So, uh,
Speaker 10: No, no, no, no not the, not the, uh, [01:03:00] State, state's role in appointing a governor has been completely, you know, yeah. So the research search committee, so the search committee is the chairperson is the governor as chancellor or visitor. Three member search committee is the chairperson, right? The other person is the, uh, UGC chairman appointee, which means, which means UGC.
And the third person is the former vice chancellor. Now, if you are appointing vice chancellors, so your, it means that it is the central vice chancellor would, which would be recommending. So it's complete control. The state government has no control over it.
Anand: Third would come from the university anyway. So it's anyway, the central veto is there, so it can be 2 1, even if the third person doesn't agree.
No, no, no. It's 3 0. It's 3 0.
Speaker 10: Because the vice chancellor, former vice chancellor is also hunted by the federal government. I
Anand: concede. Let us say 3 [01:04:00] 0. Even if it's not 3 0, it's 2 1. Let's say. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 10: Because at the end of the day, the vice chancellor is from the central government.
Anand: Right. Right. So. Uh, uh, this is a position now and, uh, the second thing that they have done is liberalizing the, uh, say the criterion for the VC appointment.
Mm-hmm. Uh, so, uh, like you not be an academic. You need not be an academy. You can be a public, uh, administrator, you can be , you can be from, uh, you can be from industry. So what they're trying to do is that the. The stated objective is that the modern education or the modern non energy economy needs people for, uh, skill enhancement, more employability.
And of course, in the past, we had administrators at VCs, suppose, say, Zamiya, you had Nazib Zang. And even you had [01:05:00] a, um, uh, uh, left hand general Jackie from military as we see in late nineties. That's right. And, uh, so, uh, and in Bihar you have many bureaucrats who have been university VCs. So, uh, and there, there also that has been a bone of contention.
So, uh. Um, that is something not new. Also, the, on the question of political neutrality, the, of course, uh, from the very beginning, uh, as an ideological project, the, uh, from early 20th century, the. Um, Hindu, uh, political forces were very serious about elections, even if they were weak, very. And also on the, uh, battle of ideas.
So, two things. They're, they're very serious. And it also, uh, in the right of center space from in the seventies in the same decade when the centralization [01:06:00] came through 42nd amendment of school education. There, there has been a criticism, uh, that the education minister from 71 to 77, H. Noorul Hassan, he was accused of, uh, pushing the left, uh, um, inclined agenda in, uh, university curriculum and also in the career advancement of many academics.
So, the right of center, uh, one was their original or. ideological project. And second was this backlash that we have to somehow even this out. So, uh, both have combined this way.
Abhinandan: Right. Uh, uh, Artosh, do you have anything to say on this?
Hartosh: Look, none of this is surprising. And the problem is it is headed in one direction, because I think in that, uh, it doesn't, then are both in agreement.
This is exactly what the right wanted. This is what always the right has signaled. This is what they've told us they will do. So we should not be surprised that they're doing the [01:07:00] consequences of what this means and where it leads us is what we have to understand because yeah, you can say the left, this led did this, but there is a substantive difference between the.
qualifications and the quality of the people that have picked and what these guys are picking, because they just do not, despite a century of trying to do this line, they don't have academically qualified people with the right credentials from wherever they want. So they are trying to dismiss the credentials itself.
They are trying to create people who are basically not just pawns, but they are. Intellectual dwarfs, which will do exactly what the central government says, they don't have the capability of running a subject as I was saying, they have run away from the very idea of what modernity is. Whatever you call them, they do not have the substantive ability to set down a book.
They have been in power for 10 or 11, 12 years. And there is so much [01:08:00] incentive to support them. And be on their side, yet they can't produce a single person of any intellectual depth who can stand in public space and actually openly debate issues or openly write about things or pass a book that matches the credibility of anything you put out.
But cinema, like
Abhinandan: they've got Kashmir files. Absolutely.
Hartosh: They've got this kind, they've got files on everybody including. Their own cinema. So this is really the probability.
Abhinandan: Uh, Sapan had written a piece on why that is. He acknowledged that the r does not have that intellectual depth of someone who can come up with that.
But he had said, because it has matlab, it has never been allowed to develop. He had that excuse. I, I don't develop decades of decades of liberal. You know, left wing, um, what do you call it, give patronage has given rise to the overall harper dot com.
Hartosh: In these 11 years, they've had their universities, they've had their people, they still have to write, you have somebody like [01:09:00] Swapan who did all his learning from the left and is regurgitating it to wag his tail for the right, basically, you know.
Sorry, Tanveer, you were saying?
Speaker 10: No, no. What I'm trying to say is that, uh, is that, you know, uh, I think there is some pressure from outside academia, right? That please appoint us, but we do not have degrees. We do not have qualifications, but we are very close to you. We have worked for you for your elections, for your mobilization.
We want to get into the system.
Song: Yeah.
Speaker 10: Right. Now that is, that is the whole problem. So therefore, in the name of making it more open system, et cetera, the government is coming up with these rules. But let me tell you the problem, you know, I mean, how I call this, you know, I wrote this, uh, Uh, word there in my piece, but that was edited, you know, the manner in which government, you know, the manner, I use this word [01:10:00] suborn, right?
Suborn, I hope, you know, through bribery, through subterfugery, through, it's a legal word, which means that you're trying to change things. Right. You, you are working on procedures. It would appear that, you know, it is right, but actually it is suborn, right? It's not right. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's constitutionally legally not tell me, give me an answer.
And anybody, you know, for that matter, anybody can give an answer. Uh, I would be very happy to know. I mean, of course, you know, I mean, I have studied so much on the constitution, et cetera. UGC is a regulatory body, right? And in a federalism state government is very much like you have a parliamentary system at the center.
You have a parliamentary system, assembly system that you can call it as at the state level. Right. Now state makes a law from its assembly, which is backed by people, right? So when assembly makes a law, it's [01:11:00] backed by people. It has the legitimacy of the people, right? But UGC every day now and then coming up with laws, which completely violates the acts which are made by the state.
But UGC doesn't have any locus standi in terms of political accountability. Tanvir, we are at a Legislatory bodies. If you have, if the government seriously want to come up with a law, you know, they should discuss this in the Parliament.
Abhinandan: You're at beginner level right now. Supreme Court is having to tell the governor of how he has to deal with bills that in passed by the tam.
You we're at that level. Whether they're having to tell the governor,
Speaker 10: I mean, if you get into the posi, uh, get into the, this gubernatorial office. The history, the quality and everything. It's an independent office. It's an independent office. It has nothing to do with political party. It has nothing to do with the central government.
They have to see the governor, you know, has to see that the politics and the [01:12:00] polity and the procedures are being followed. That said nothing and does not have the discretionary power. You make, you're giving all functions and powers to the governor. I think that is established
Abhinandan: clearly. I mean, you know, the Supreme Court having to reiterate that is unfortunate, but.
I just want to, uh, you know, before I come to Manisha, a little anecdote, I, uh, I'm not saying I'm an academic or I even deserve to be there, but for whatever reason, I was in a meeting on an advisory board of a university, uh, and, uh, there were two people who were also on the advisory board who are affiliated to the Baba Ramdev Foundation.
Uh, organization. Uh, so it was a very long and boring meeting. I was like, why the fuck am I here? Uh, and there were no snacks that were without sugar. All the snacks had sugar. I'm diabetic and I wanted to eat. So I kept waiting. Organic
Hartosh: honey? No, honey is also, by the way, that's a myth. It's a myth.
Abhinandan: Ghee and sugar is all mixed up.
In that meeting, there was a long discussion on, you know, this university should be world class. on medical [01:13:00] issues, you know, like Harvard Medical School, this medical school, uh, Sloan Cataract, there's some Sloan Catering or something in New York. Um, and then they said we have to open a very robust, world class homeopathy department.
So I was like, how the fuck are you going to be world class if you have a homeopathy department in your medical school? Like, because homeopathy is anti science. And if your advisors Are affiliated to the organization that has claiming to cure COVID, AIDS, homosexuality,
Manisha: give you a male born also.
Abhinandan: What the fuck will this university achieve and how are you even thinking of being world class?
I think it's because of your
Hartosh: diabetes you have a problem with homosexuality. You just
Speaker 10: look into, uh, you just look into the research projects. Crores and crores are given to teachers, to researchers who want to do research on gobergas. One of my colleagues, she teaches in chemistry. She got huge amount of money to do research on [01:14:00] this.
Tanvi, there was,
Abhinandan: forget research, 60 percent funding was to be provided for startups that would create products from cow urine. I don't know if you remember a few years ago. Manisha, you were saying?
Manisha: No, so I just want to stress on the point that it's not just about, uh, curriculum, academy. geography, science, they actually want to shape individuals within university.
We've been traveling throughout central and state universities from 2022 every election, the kind of complaints we hear students tell us what RSS back VCs are up to. There's a complete crackdown on protests in universities and protests, protests for even things. Within the university, you want better infrastructure, you want CCTV somewhere, you want library infrastructure.
There's, you, and we're recording the shorter point where yesterday I think police entered Jamya. Jamya, uh, police was called in because students were apparently doing unlawful protests.
Hartosh: Picked them up for More than 10, 12, 14 hours without explanation. Students within the university.
Manisha: [01:15:00] Kurukshetra University students tell us that, look, when we want to call someone who's from, uh, you know, an anti BJP, we're not given any halls.
LSR students are saying that, you know, we don't have a feminist reading club in a You know, women's college, we had to call Nivedita Menon and she had to talk to us outside the campus premises. So there's just so much suppression across colleges and state universities. And I think the idea is to really shape individuals like the Galgotia University chaps that we saw, right?
Just, just Erwin Maxwell, hi, hi. Don't think, don't be an irritant, listen. And unfortunately we do live in a society where there's a lot of, uh, You know, acceptance for this sort of a model student. Parents will also say, why do you want to get into a protest? Why should you be sitting there? Why should you question?
Why should you think?
Speaker 10: The reason why they want to appoint vice chancellor either from military, army, or a bureaucrat who can crack down on these students protests, dissent, any kind of association, any kind of union. So [01:16:00] that is perhaps the larger idea. Or, or you have a businessman who can just simply, you know, uh, uh, uh, sell the whole university, privatize the whole university.
Cost benefit analysis. Like, like Trump
Abhinandan: is running for election, right? For a
Hartosh: lot of academics who now supposedly support the right, this is also a cover up for their own. inadequacy as researchers. Actually, a good case study should be, and we'll get into some time or the other is our old friend, Anand Ranganathan, whose own science is now being questioned on very strong grounds, but nobody will raise those questions.
And this is true of a lot of these people sitting as historians, social scientists, et cetera, who cater to the right, all sorts of charges, which are very serious, will never be examined within academia because they are with the current regime of the day. And the Output that they are producing does not measure up to any publishable material in any world class publication or [01:17:00] journal.
They have to create their own journals because they've suddenly decided that the whole world is against them. Yeah. So this mediocrity celebration of mediocrity through the song, which is what we are seeing, which is really the
Abhinandan: reality, which extends to art cinema. In fact, Manisha had internally that the latest revenue model for for even stand up comics or podcasters is you got to suck up to the government.
That's the revenue model. So if they say this one's bad. This one's bad, even if you had said something nice. And the response
Hartosh: to that will be, but you know, 15 years ago that happened and this happened, you pick these instances, that instances and try and balance it out. But still there's an output, not saying necessarily the best thing, but there is, was good history written, there was good social science done, et cetera.
This man has no understanding, even the ICERs which were created. Modi wants them to be self. financing, you know, you were cutting down funding even for science, pure science institutions. How do you expect pure science institutions to be generating their own money [01:18:00] this at a time when we want to be Vishwaguru, AI, et cetera?
Abhinandan: Right. Anand, do you have something to say before we give Tanvir the last word and say goodbye?
Anand: Another, coming back to this. Another, uh, proposal has been to, uh, do away with the silos of disciplinary compartmentalization that if you have, um, your master's or graduation in other subjects, you can also apply for professorship.
And so, uh, I think, uh, the net examination, which was, uh, the eligibility, which still is, uh, the eligibility examination for teaching in colleges now, it gave an option earlier. Also, there was an option that, uh, suppose you were, uh, uh, having a master's in say, [01:19:00] history. You can, and if you are confident enough in say, political science or sociology.
So, or economics, you can write that exam in economics. So, uh, so that, that was at the net level. Now, uh, in some, uh, sections of university have welcomed this that yes, if you have say competence in other discipline, you can come, uh, uh, but there have been some reservations also that. That may not reflect, you may have knowledge, but not the academic discipline or years of training in it.
To apply
Abhinandan: for professorship basically. Yes.
Anand: So, that is also one area. And when you said these rules
Abhinandan: that have been drafted, the, for public consultation, they don't have to get clearance from Parliament. Okay. They cannot be notified. How do they have to get, it is not like an amendment, right? It is.
Anand: No, it is a regulatory body.
It is not an amendment. Right. So, it, it, so, uh. So, it need not have [01:20:00] any. So, I, I, I, I am, what I am saying that that is also a proposal, it is, it is good or bad, I am not saying that. So, uh, for fluidity of, say, or breaking the silos of compartmentalization of disciplines, it may be a good idea. but also what to who have spent years in training themselves in a particular discipline.
So, they may, they may feel that disincentivizes and then they may feel shortchanged in their career career options. Right. So, uh, uh, yeah, sorry, sorry. Go ahead. Also, uh, uh, means, uh, on, uh, the question of shaping individual, my experience does not. Because I have been a student of Central University, I travel to different universities also.
Uh, so, uh, at different points here, at the beginning of 20th, this 21st century and now also I am a student. So, then also, uh, Professor Raj would be knowing, uh, Uh, say, [01:21:00] Professor Ishnarayan Mishra, very, uh, left, left inclined, uh, teacher of political science that Mishra has also teaches. So, he used to tell me that all the cats and dogs of all the professors have become professors.
So, there was a, there was a patronage system. There were teachers who could, who would take you to the sidelines and say that I am having a Naxal training camp or in Muzzafarpur. would you accompany me? So, this is what I heard then. So, it is, so, uh, they would not say Naxal, but they would say something similar that we have activists left, activists we want to train them on, on.
So, uh, but I could get that. So, uh, I could. So, So, it is not as if the indoctrination machine was not working then, so, or the patronage system was not working then, it was working, and it is my first experience, I am not saying that I heard [01:22:00] it from a group of sample, a journalistic, say, observation of 15 20 year students and I talked to them and I drew this conclusion.
So, It has been maybe the intensity with more power, uh, into this current, it's become more, more, the intensity has become more, but will that statement.
Speaker 10: So what you're saying is for that policy. No, no, that's not, that's not true at all. That's not true at all. Yeah.
Abhinandan: So, uh, before we say, uh, any recommendation for our audience that could enrich their lives.
Speaker 10: Uh, so, you know, I'm, I'm reading two books at this point of time. One, of course, I have to review. I review, uh, you know, in various places, business standard and, uh, uh, Biblio and all. So one book I'm reviewing is by Professor Zoya
Speaker 5: Hassan,
Speaker 10: which deals with democracy. Uh, the name of the book is Democracy on Trial, right?
It's a very, very interesting book, very fascinating book that how. How this whole [01:23:00] majoritarian politics is, is playing out and the autonomy of the institutions are sort of, uh, emasculated. And then, uh, you know what, uh, your panelists was talking about that, uh, how the Dysent and the critical thinking and all these things are being eroded.
It's a good book, you know, which deals with, uh, backsliding of democracy. So the larger thing is about, we are hearing about backsliding of democracy, but the another one, which I think everybody. And the other one that I think we should read because this age is, is, is about, uh, uh, by, by, uh, the name of the author is, uh, Yannis Varoufakis.
And the name of the book is, uh, uh, techno feudalism.
Abhinandan: That's the former Greek finance ministers. Yeah,
Speaker 10: that's right. Absolutely. That's right. So that's a very fascinating, how, how the markets are changing. Capital is changing, you know, and how capital itself is becoming, uh, uh, you know, sort of, uh, killing the capital.
So, so, uh, he's an interesting guy. [01:24:00] Fascinating book. I, I, I suggest all everyone, you know, who's interested in understanding this larger macro change, which is happening at the technological level. So, uh, uh, where it is leading to and, uh, how, how we are moving. You know, we are moving, uh, or we are regressing towards feudalism.
Anand: Right. One thing about capitalism and this, uh, university and state. So Adam Smith, the godfather of, say, laissez faire and state non intervention, even he favored a state to be in the Patron of education. Hmm. So it, it was one exception that he made.
Speaker 10: Right. But thanks. The No, no, no, that's, that's, that's Prince, that, that was the patron client actually, because university was seen as subservient to some patron, either King and then of course after, after King.
So some power, you know, that, that, that was, that, that's what Adam still talked about. Right.
Abhinandan: I also think that, uh. [01:25:00] It is time to stop quoting a Marx or an Adam Smith because I, I think a moderate postgraduate in economics, uh, would have a better insight, uh, on political philosophy today purely because they have had the benefit of observing how things have worked out over the last 80, 100 years, like Adam Smith's idea of what capital of free markets to do was theoretical.
Today's economist can tell you what happened 10 years ago when water was privatized in, say, Philippines, uh, you know, or in Columbia or, you know, what I'm saying is it's, you know, we keep quoting these guys as if they were gods. They were brilliant because they could predict many things. They were, cause they could predict many things that we, that no one had seen.
But now, but today to say that. Adam Smith's view on market was more informed than any economists today, I think is a bit much.
Hartosh: You should make that the first [01:26:00] word and then we'd have to argue for hours on this
Speaker 10: instead of ending on this note. They laid down the framework actually. So that's what. I mean, see the market.
Market, you know, cannot operate without the understanding of Adam Smith or Ricardo. I'm saying it can, of course,
Abhinandan: you, you can, but what I'm saying is that, that they said this, therefore it must be true. No, no, no, not at all. A hundred years ago, for example, every economist worth their salt 20 years ago, 30 years ago was both tell us the benefits of free trade.
You know, everybody had a view 30 years later. Trump down the line, everybody say, Oh, actually we were wrong on world trade.
Manisha: But it's important to know the views. Of course. What I'm saying is,
Abhinandan: but for them, it was predictive and speculative. For today's economist, it's real. Yeah. It's not, they're not imagining it.
I
Anand: don't know what was your, what was your trigger? Because people say things, give historical references for trivia to add to conversation. That is not to [01:27:00] say that he was God or something.
Hartosh: As a discipline was created to give jobs to bad mathematicians
Abhinandan: says the mathematician. Thank you Tanvir. Pleasure talking to you.
Speaker 10: so much. Thank you so much for having me.
Abhinandan: All right. Thank you. Bye. And before we move on to the emails, let's get the last word and recommendation from Hartosh there as well. What do you have for our audience, Hartosh?
Hartosh: Well, two things. I also want to take up the last thing and that's the question of comparisons between the past and the present.
And what is missing strongly from that comparison is the question of the increase of mediocrity that I mean, yes, there were problems then, by the way, the people reporting on those problems then or during Congress rule now. are the same people who are accused of being anti national. I tell, actually, I can't tell my Sanghi friends because I don't have Sanghi friends.
I refuse to have Sanghi friends any longer. I'm not [01:28:00] hoping to fall in love with them ever.
Abhinandan: But not
Hartosh: even on Valentine's day. But the fact is when they will go out of power, they will. Come to us with their grievances. They will not go to an A go Swami. That's because a go Swami will be doing exactly what he's doing to this government, to the next government, that the only place they will have to actually talk about independence and questions and examination of governments will be with us.
Yes, and this is the mediocrity of the right I talk about. There is no such representative on the right. I can challenge you today. Guarantee this, that there is no right wing journalist who can be called a journalist, despite 10 years of power of this government, who will do the job of asking questions of the government and who will not succumb as soon as a liberal government comes to power to saying something.
That is the difference that we are talking about of moral integrity of educational integrity or integrity of professions that the right. Lacks. I
Abhinandan: agree with you. I, that is one of the most important things I have made [01:29:00] that point on the whole a progressive mindset as opposed to the conservative mindset is that the intervention, like the RT days, the UPA
Song: Sure.
Abhinandan: The Mocha always led by the so-called PR Han and the communists like me only there was, and I, I will never take his name because he, you're a communist. I'm apparently . So many people say, so I have said this on HTA before. Every time I'd make. A panel discussion, I'd get a call from him saying, bolna, say this.
I said, why don't you come? We don't have enough. Pagal hai, sarkar keema bana degi. Today he sits on panels, abusing, using the vilest language. He didn't have the fucking guts to even come to a, so you're absolutely right. When the regime changes, there will not be a single. Rightwing journalist or historian willing to put his, because Kadi is part of the Sker DNA.
Absolutely. And that is, and I completely agree, sker
Hartosh: was a complete covered this [01:30:00] apologist of the worst kind. I completely agree with you on that, but let's forget all that. Let's come to the recommendation. The first, sorry. In all the news there I think we have done in the caravan, I think a very important story.
It's a follow up to our story that was removed. From our magazine on the Kashmir killings in Poonch, this time we have carried a story of this killing was not done at the OIC level, the brigadier level, but the brigadier, et cetera, have testified in the court of inquiry that two generals were sitting and directing these operations, the torture and killing of the Poonch, the two generals we are talking about, one continues to be a general heading the RR in Kashmir.
The second one is today the head of the IMA. This is the message that we are sending to the country that the training of the I. M. is being done by generals like this and we put it out again. It's there available in print, available on our website. I think that's a story that needs to be followed, picked up and spoken about.
It's by Jitender too? Absolutely. And it [01:31:00] is something we need to focus on. This is what we are coming to institutionally where from the very top, you're giving sanction to something like this, to your own citizens. I mean, it is
Manisha: privately in Kashmir. people within the government, there was nothing wrong with that caravan story that went down.
Everyone admitted privately that all facts are correct in this report.
Hartosh: And so are the facts now, because we are basing it on the own records of the people involved in this, not the civilians, but the officials themselves. And
Manisha: if they've testified, that's that's
Hartosh: the testimony there. And In the removal orders in the courts, the government has not said or pointed out to a single line or single word in error in our story.
And that story continues to exist in print. So what it is only because they've created these digital laws meant for censorship, not for journalistic conduct or the truth that this has happened. The second book I would recommend is [01:32:00] one that I'm reading now is. Peggy Mohan's on linguistics on mother tongues and fatherlands, which is fascinating.
It is her attempt to search for a language X, the language that may have been spoken in the Indus Valley region at some point of time through the grammatical structure of languages that could exist today. And it is fascinating because there's an attempt to do a whole hogwash through archaeology and DNA, et cetera.
I know the people who do the DNA research, who tell me in private, what they are forced to say in public is all bunkum, but they don't again have the courage basically. But this book is interesting because it is open ended. It raises many important questions among them. This fascinating question. Which should, uh, delight you of the kinship between Punjabi and Tamil that bypasses the Hindi belt.
Oh, really? Yes.
Abhinandan: So,
Hartosh: I would
Abhinandan: say. Is it about me? No. Okay. I should read that. In fact, I should gift that to my entire family. Thank you so much, [01:33:00] Hartosh. Do the links for the stories on our show notes and also do contribute to the caravan. They also take subscriptions. The link will be in the show notes.
Support journalism and don't leave it to either billionaires or millionaires or even Sarkari ads. Take control of journalism because only then it's of the public. Thanks, man. Thank you.
Manisha: Happy
Abhinandan: valentine's day to artosh Here's a QR code again for the joint subscription on valentine's day gift it to someone you love Now we only entertain the emails of our subscribers.
So if you want to mail us You have to be a subscriber. You can mail us at podcasts at newslondon. com, I repeat, podcasts at newslondon. com or click on the link in the show notes, a window will open out and you can give in your feedback there. If it's more than 150 words, only the first 150 words will be read.
That is our rule. So please. I request you to adjust, Maneesha, we have 30 emails. So let's start with last week's and we'll come to the rest later with time.
Manisha: So Agitha says, uh, on the issue of representation of upper [01:34:00] caste faculty, along with the caste census of faculty in central institutions like IITs and central universities across the country, the Hindu has frequently covered the issue.
on how very few lower caste and other caste people were there in such institutions. My concern is that the under representation of faculty from lower and other castes may be affecting PhD admissions. However, I may be mistaken and it would be helpful to investigate whether the issue truly impacts PhD admissions or if other factors contribute to the situation in these prestigious institutions.
Speaker 5: Mohammed
Manisha: Salman says, Hi team, both Hafta and Chacha did a superb deep dive into the Qom stampede and I have nothing to add, but can we please question the estimates of Pilgrim numbers a bit more aggressively? Are we that bad at arithmetic that we believe it when someone tells us that 45 crore people will circulate in and out of a small stretch of land over a month in a massive state?
whose resident population is half that number. Who counts these visitors? What are the mechanisms to estimate that on the most important [01:35:00] snan days, four to five crore people are going to be there in just one day. The first thing state fudges before bandobas or administration is numbers. While cultural, national, religious pride are important, we shouldn't take it.
Abhinandan: Yeah, this is something I haven't seen an explainer and we've discussed this also that how, how do they figure that out? And is there any way to check?
Manisha: To my mind though, in
Anand: 2001, Kumbh, so, uh, not only in the Indian media, but the foreign media, I think, uh, it was in NYT or BBC. So they did a report on 2001 Kumbh and they said that today's Prayagraj is the most populated city in the world.
So, uh, and the estimate was that around 5, 6 crore people are there. Uh, also in the same report and, and, and he was very lauded for his, so the district magistrate of Allahabad was, I remember the strap line, the world's most powerful event manager, the district magistrate [01:36:00] of Allahabad.
Manisha: Also, it's not just people from the state who come, right?
It's from, I mean, this time, and this is a factor of social media also, of the kind of advertising also, a lot of people come from everywhere. My point with fact checking this is Maybe an explainer is good, but I think fact check also have to have an end to, what are we trying to say? MB is very popular. It is the largest gathering, so maybe it's not 45 crow.
But
Abhinandan: yeah, I mean it's, it's a question of trivia. It doesn't
Manisha: really, yeah, it's a question of trivia to me. It's not like such a, because it won't negate the actual fact that it is large,
Abhinandan: right?
Manisha: I mean, that is not being made out. Okay. So the heart says the shit show at KMB took me into an Instagram rabbit hole for 1.3 30 hours.
One and a half hours, which turned into a couple of sleepless nights. This re emphasizes the need for news laundry in the current situation. I'm a very, very proud subscriber now more than ever and will upgrade my subscription as soon as I get a job. Yeah, there were lots of Instagram reels and people talking about the bheed and everything.[01:37:00]
In fact, it's crazy how it works. Even I went down this rabbit hole of Kumbh Reels. Like for one day, I was only seeing Kumbh Reels on my Instagram. Vatsal says, saw these posters in New Delhi constituencies near Khan Market. Uh, there were a few e rickshaws too carrying the same message. Whatever be the election results, you can't beat the creativity here.
I'm lost for words. This is the final boss of propaganda. So we can show this image right now on the screen. It says Desh Drohi Kejriwal Ka Amerikki Naxali Isai Aatankhwad.
Abhinandan: So it's basically everything. It's a bit like what Newsman and Newslaundry were accused of that. We are
Manisha: seceding
Abhinandan: south by taking help of Khalistan and USAID.
And so like everyone is. It's a magic coalition. Lekhak is Mukesh Jain. Lekhak ne
Manisha: apna naam bhi likha hai by the way, is poster mein.
Anand: Ek
Manisha: Hazar Pustak Ka
Anand: Mooli. Oh, they have to give their name. The printer has to give his name. He is from
Manisha: IIT
Anand: Roorkee. The printer has to [01:38:00] give his name to election posters. I think.
There was a controversy in last.
Abhinandan: Yeah, I remember that. You have to give, you have to take ownership of the poster. Yeah, he
Manisha: can't be from IT Roorkee. I think he's just maybe studied there. Maybe. I don't know. Okay. Abhishek Jadhav says, Hello Abhinandan, Manisha, Shardul and Raman sir. I've been coming, coming across the news of Ram Rahim getting paroled again and again.
In recent news, he again got paroled. Parole for 20 days. I would love to see some stories on why and how the court has been granting parole to a rape convict, and what flaws does the judiciary have. Maybe this topic can also be part of the podcast at Hafta. It's disturbing to see no progress on bail appeal for activists to murder college and how courts blatantly grant parole to convicts of serious offenses.
Yeah. UAP is a law that just doesn't allow for, but even so, I think Umer Khalid's case is specific because even Sydney Kaan did walk out after 800 days.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But the, I mean. Of course, laws, these days, like today, Bela Trivedi, uh, the judge, Supreme Court judge has, uh, uh, overruled an earlier judgment of an AD.
Bail. Bail. Saying [01:39:00] that, so yeah, it's.
Manisha: Nidhi Shah says, I'm a new subscriber and a doctoral student in the US, deeply passionate about Indian politics. Many tell me to focus on life here, but I feel out of place. I want to return and contribute to change. Despite its struggles, India is my country. But what kind of a nation are we if we can't even ensure clean air and water?
These are basics, basic rights, yet they remain luxuries. Our constitution grants us the right to life, but what is life without breathable air? I contributed 500 campaign. Not much. That's more than enough for us. Thank you, Nidhi. This campaign
Abhinandan: will. Snowball. We are confident.
Manisha: But I'm tired of politics that prioritizes propaganda over PM, over people.
A PM who avoids press conferences yet thrives on self promotion. Don't we deserve better?
Abhinandan: Yes, we do deserve better as does everybody else, but such is life. But thank you so much. This. You know, campaign, the QR code is there. Get involved, we have to clean our area. We at least have to make sure the next generation has cleaner lungs than us.
Manisha: Dheeraj says, Hi, I had previously [01:40:00] written to you using this form itself, so it would not have crossed any word limit, but that letter was not read or even acknowledged. It was about Anand's defense of election commission using too many elections as excuse. At the same time, I had written to Awful and Awesome about making video of recommendations each from NL for New Year.
That was read. That's a misquote.
Anand: I think Dheeraj, we read your email, but anyway, go ahead. No, no, that's a misquote. I, uh, too many elections I used as, uh, in my articulation of the electoral fatigue. Election commission, I didn't, uh, defend nor attack. I said that. Uh, like any, um, say assertion or any argument if election commissions, uh, views are not taken into account and version of events not taken accounts for me, it's not a complete picture.
That's my point. I think, uh, and for that goes for any policy or [01:41:00] decision, um, or any issue regarding if a government version is missing in any criticism. So. It doesn't give me a whole picture as a report. That was my point. So we can read a
Abhinandan: few more emails. We can read a few more. I'll just read a couple.
I'll read Rohini Banerjee says, hello, love the discussion with Govindra Jayathiraj on the budget. But what intrigued me most was Manisha's question on whether police states led to strengthened economies. Another interesting case study is South Korea, which faced harrowing wars, colonization, dictatorship, and economic crises, and yet has re emerged as a major economic power due to strong government control.
I find the growth story fascinating. They too have a similar toxic corporate work culture like Indian corporate sector. Yet they are thriving more than us. Well, Rohini, right now South Korea is going through their own issues. But yeah, I get what you're saying.
Manisha: Maybe we should do a Let's Talk About on this.
Abhinandan: On Korea? I'd be
Manisha: very curious. No, on this question.
Abhinandan: That's right. Dhruv [01:42:00] Kumar says, To be under the 150 word limit, I'll keep my question brief. I understand why you are not taking ads from political parties, but why can't you accept ads from brands like any music concert fan as How will it limit your independence?
Kindly elaborate. Because Dhruv, brands, uh, will not give ads to anyone who's a little bit controversial. Uh, if you go by ad logic, then there is a tendency of wanting to go for more clicks because brands only give ads based on how many clicks you get, in which case we'll have to do. Stuff that is more click baity rather than investigative and data shows ranty opinion pieces get more clicks than ground reporting.
So we've discussed that at length in one of the earlier podcasts, it will be, the link will be in the show notes below. Anisha. Any other emails? Yeah, we can't read all, but we'll read it. As many. We will, but we'll come to the rest also later, by the way, in a future episode,
Manisha: uh, so I'll read uh, some short letters.
Shivani A says, hi guys. This is [01:43:00] regarding the request some people made for subtitles to add on NL. Have the episodes when someone starts speaking in Hindu Udu if it's not financially feasible for you guys and I'd be happy to offer my services free of charge. I'm a professional translator and subtitler, let me know if you'd be interested.
So we should get in touch with you. That is a very, maybe not for Hafta, but we do need subtitle help. Yeah, Shivani, that is
Abhinandan: a wonderful offer. Thank you so much. See, this is newsletter subscribers, so many of you offer vehicles, homes, services, tech services, services such as translation. Yes, Shivani, we will get in touch with you.
Thank you.
Manisha: Anonymous says, I've been following your content for a long time and I'm a big fan of your reporting and business model surviving and thriving for 13 years and a subscription model is. I have a suggestion for a possible long form story regarding the slow yet sustained land acquisition by the Adani Group in Mumbai.
This issue extends beyond the Dharavi redevelopment and includes both commercial and residential projects. For years, the state government has amended housing and land rules to enable the Adani Group to dominate Mumbai's real estate. Changes in TDR and FSI regulations are still pending. [01:44:00] Steering the city's development towards an Ahmedabad like model, with the Adani group emerging as the sole or most dominant builder and landowner.
I believe this warrants an in depth investigative report. Great idea. Very good
Abhinandan: idea.
Manisha: Write to me at manisha at newslaundry dot com, because you're anonymous here, and we shall put a reporter on this. Could be an interesting piece to look
Speaker 5: at.
Manisha: Supportive critique. I like how they've For the last couple of weeks, Hafta has seemed more like Abhinandan interviewing a guest rather than a conversation with all panelists.
There was hardly any inputs or questions by others on the panel. Abhinandan could probably do single person interview as a separate podcast. He clearly has a lot to say. Love the NL work and happy 13th guys.
Abhinandan: Very polite way of saying it. Message received. Milord.
Manisha: Chirag says in Hafta 523, Manisha posed an excellent question that she couldn't direct to Govind Raj as he had to leave.
Her hypothesis was that Vietnam is doing economically well because of being a police state. It's hard to [01:45:00] answer the question in 150 words, but I would recommend How Asia Works by Joe Studwell. The book explores how countries like South Korea, Taiwan, China, and post war Japan achieved rapid growth. Part of Studwell's Manisha's hypothesis.
He emphasizes the role of activism. Government interventions and authoritarian leadership during the early stages of development, followed by a transition to free market policies once exports become globally competitive. Mm. He shows this through the lens of growth of companies like Hyundai, Sony and TSMC, which make it a fun read.
His explanation also makes you realize where India went wrong in its industrial policy and how to fix it. I definitely read it.
Abhinandan: Yeah. It seems very sensible because a lot of things have suggested it depends on what phase of growth you are at here.
Song: Hmm.
Abhinandan: So, I think we'll read the rest later. We have still about, uh, how many?
20. 19 emails left, Abhishek, yours is Yaditi, Laws, Ujjwal, Mahendra, many of you. We'll come to these, but today we've gone a little over time. [01:46:00] So, uh, thank you for your feedback. Please keep it coming. But, uh, we'll, like we normally do, after every 5 or 6 episodes, we'll have one longer episode where we make sure we finish all the emails.
But before we finish, Manisha, your recommendation for the week?
Manisha: So, we did not discuss the beer biceps, uh, slash Sameera.
Speaker 5: Hmm.
Manisha: But I think if you're keen on knowing about it or understanding what's behind the outrage and if you want some good commentary on this, you must read Anurag Varma's piece on News Laundry.
There's no formula to be safe in India. I think he packs in everything really well in this piece, so do check that out. I'm reading a book on the Chola Empire by Anurudh Karnasethi who I'm going to be interviewing next week. So maybe that's my recommendation. It's quite pacey.
Abhinandan: Anand, yours?
Manisha: Yes,
Anand: since we talked about university, so I am going back to the mother of universities, Nalanda University. So, uh, [01:47:00] uh, mother, maybe some people, but actually in last two years, even Western scholarship has been, uh, giving very convincing replies to, yes, Nalanda was the mother of universities. And that's why, uh, Abhay K, who has written a book on Nalanda the world, uh, he says that in two years ago, if you said that Nalanda gave the idea of an university to the world, you would be laughed at, but now the West is accepting it because of the new evidence.
Uh, and, His book, of course, my recommendation is two, three things I would like to add to that, that, uh, the idea, one is in the Greek like academies of Plato and this, but it, it was not developed in a multidisciplinary dormitory form or the courtyard structure that you see in Western [01:48:00] universities, great universities like Oxford and Cambridge, but, uh, oh, So, Nalanda was a dormitory system, nine story library system and courtyard and thousands of scholars, also external, and it was not only about philosophy, but also the mathematics, science, multidisciplines, linguistics.
All. So the idea that multiple disciplines could be taught in a campus with residents, with hostels, with library, it, it first, uh, now came to west, uh, say Asia, say, or, or a bit closer in Baghdad, in form of Madrasas Madrasas because people, na. Nalanda trained people came there and they established with the same concept Madrasaad.
Wow. And, and it further traveled, even William Darlimple says that it further traveled [01:49:00] from Nalanda to Afghanistan and to Europe. And we see great Western universities, Oxford, Cambridge, Nalanda model. Uh, he, and it is now. generally accepted. Now, it is not a laughing matter of, say, boast of past glory. It is being, uh, by renowned historians, it is being acknowledged.
Also, uh, the Aryabhatta's zero came from that Nalanda training, which transformed the world of computation and calculations. So, the modern science is based on this binary system of zero one, uh, means information science. The Philippe gave to also the number system. So the, I think, uh, Indians have not been very aware of the how great the contribution Narda made, and it, it is known in fragments.
But what Ake does is that he tells the complete story. He is a diplomat here, [01:50:00] 2003 batch Indian Foreign Service official. And he, uh, has delved into. Strands and built a good story. And he says that it's only half a story. Even Daral says that only 10% of Nalanda has been excavated. So that's it. So, and you've interviewed him?
Yes. So you can catch
Manisha: the interview on News Laundry soon.
Abhinandan: So, um, I was telling, you know, after the interview we had an, uh, one chapter on Nalanda in class eight or nine when I was in school. And at that time, if I remember correctly, it was, um, at least in our textbook, it was. called it was the most ancient university ever in the world.
But yeah, but some about time
Anand: fragments now, now more credible information of how Really, it's contribution was to the ancient world is getting the
Manisha: question of what her toes were saying that why in 10 years, why haven't we had a right wing historian? Like, it is something to think of that it takes a William Darrymple to [01:51:00] write a book on ancient India's contribution and everyone starts talking about in the last 10 years.
Why hasn't? And only 10 percent of Nalanda excavated. I mean, if you have cultural projects also, there doesn't seem to be a focus on even cultural projects.
Abhinandan: Well, I mean, I think that's because of the reward incentive system and I won't take the name, but one particular reasonable right of center voice who I'm fairly friendly with, who I was speaking with at A holy Milan by the way at RSS, uh, has a holy Milan, which they used to invite me.
I don't think they've, I used to go also. Um, and that person said, I said, dude, you're also going a bit off. Like you're going into the open India zone because you have solid work and you can, and this person said that unless you go all the way, you get no patronage and I'm never going to get patronage from your liberal side.
This is my only chance. And if I want patronage, I have to go that far. And when you go that far, then you can't have. [01:52:00] sense. I mean, if, if you like, for example, the idea of Swaraj, you know, the magazine, the digital initially when it started was great idea because there were no right of center sensible voices.
They did not stick to that. They went into the open India zone. I think that's why, because if anyone wants to stay there, you can't, so I think that, that is. For
Manisha: political patronage. Political patronage. Exactly.
Anand: The very expectation that Nalanda's glory has to be retold by a right wing historian is absurd, because it's not a right or left thing.
Yeah, yeah. It's not. It's not a right or left thing. It should be a matter of his. But then if you say that the left ignored it, or that
Manisha: there was injustice. This is why, why haven't you been able
Anand: to come up with it? So, so it's a, no, no, nobody is saying Kim Il sung is left ignored. What is that, uh, that the new evidence has emerged that how real its contribution is?
Maybe also left focused more in the Marxist terms on economic history. So, cultural history projects have been like a, a, a, apart from a great work, A. L. [01:53:00] Gossam's The Wonder That Was India that in 1954, cultural history was generally ignored for different reasons. But I think
Abhinandan: also objectively, Anand, I just want to know your view on it, because, um, I mean, I'm, I am not meaning to single out Bihar in that sense.
For example, you know, the kind of excavation that happened in Tamil Nadu with the state getting so involved, uh, like I've traveled to Bihar extensively because of the shows that we used to do there. Uh, the places that are really well kept there are the ones that are adopted by the Chinese, uh, by the Japanese or the Koreans, you know, the Gaia.
Uh, I think the states inherent how corrupt or not corrupt it is, like for example, Punjab has some phenomenal history if you really want to excavate. But there, though, the attention will never be on that. I mean, I've seen some, uh, you know, ruins and things in Punjab, which the government does not even care about.
So I think how important it is for the state and the general level of, [01:54:00] um, you know, corruption and importance that the state would give to it, like Stalin has turned it into a, uh, linguistic and identity issue. It's politically smart. to talk about and fund that excavation. You think that has something to do with that as well?
Even
Anand: the new evidence has not come from excavation. It has come from the digging of the literary sources. I see. Centuries ago. So, uh, excavation is still at 10 percent.
Abhinandan: My recommendations are two and this is to, you know, dovetail the point. Context setting was what I was battling for. I wasn't Uh, you know, necessarily, uh, it wasn't, uh, uh, retort to you saying Adam Smith, it just, what triggered it is that Adam Smith as being seen as this, because with benefit of hindsight, you know, a lot more like, for example, today, a cub reporter.
can give you a better analysis of Delhi election [01:55:00] than a 40 year experience political pundit could before the election because they've seen the result. So the two are, one is, would you rather be rich in 1900 or middle class now? NPR Planet Monday is from 2010. It is a fascinating, uh, podcast that I had heard.
I mean, if you think that, you know, the kings of the 1800s lived such great lives, they'd be dying of malaria, they'd be dying of bloody diphtheria, kali khasi, lose emotions because nothing was clean, they didn't have ACs. So, even if you're middle class today, you're a lot better off than the super rich of the 1900s.
Uh, context is important, you know, where technology has reached, where economics has reached, where data has reached. And the second is also an NPR. Why economists got free trade with China so wrong. And this was written just last week. This is not a podcast. It's a newsletter. Uh, do read it because. Again, the point I was making is [01:56:00] hindsight gives you so much more information than the most brilliant predictors of things, and I think that is why I would take today's economists, even if they're mediocre more seriously than the brilliant economists of, you know, 200 years ago or a hundred years ago.
Whenever it's on that note, I'd like to thank our producer, Pali, and our sound, recordist Anil, and all our subscribers. Happy Valentine's. All of you who are lovers, go out, love, make love. All of you who are haters, buy a subscription, get the lathi, and go looking for people who found love just because you losers can't.
See if you can fuck it up for someone else. Why are they buying
Manisha: the subscription before doing all that?
Abhinandan: Because you might as well, it may teach you some love. You know, haters, I mean, just cause you're fucked up. Yeah, the best thing you can do is fuck up other people's lives. You
Anand: missed a very large category, which is of majority.
People who want to love, but will not get. Yes, love,
Abhinandan: but will not get love. [01:57:00] For you, I have this share. Kabhi kisi ko mukamal jahan nahi milta.
Be happy that you've got on that note s and we'll close with the song for students such as an anthem back in the day for re Rebels, and I think it's still relevant. Check it out. See you guys next week. Bye-bye.
Song: We don't need no education.
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom. Teacher leave them kids alone.[01:58:00]
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