Zoe Lister-Jones has the elevator pitch for "Slip," the new Roku series that she created, wrote, directed and stars in, down pat. As she told me on "Salon Talks" that her character Mae is a bored wife who discovers one errant evening that "through orgasm, she's being transported into a multiverse." Adultery never had consequences quite like this.
For Lister-Jones, known best to television viewers for her comedic roles on "New Girl" and "Life in Pieces," using a "sort of sci-fi lens" was a means to explore female sexuality in a more realistic way. As Mae "slips" from partner to partner and reality to reality, she has to uncover what desire truly really means to her. "I was interested in centering a woman's pleasure in a way that was integral to the narrative," she said," adding that the inspiration for the show also arose from "a sexual awakening in my 30s."
After spending the early days of the pandemic "feeling really trapped," Lister-Jones is now making up for lost time, costarring in Zach Braff's "A Good Person" and Ari Aster's "Beau Is Afraid" this year and planning a hoped-for second season of "Slip." During our candid discussion, she talked to us about the delicate choreography of shooting sex scenes, exploring the "eternal desire for more" from a female perspective, learning to mimic Patti LuPone for "Beau Is Afraid," and why she's still looking for answers to "those difficult existential questions."
Watch the "Salon Talks" episode with Zoe Lister-Jones here.
This conversation has been lightly edited for clarity and length.
When we meet your character Mae, she's at a crossroads in her life. Talk to me about who she is, and this transformative thing that happens.
Mae's stuck in a marriage that's totally functional, but she's feeling very restless within it. One night has a lapse of judgment and ends up cheating on her husband. She has a transcendent sexual experience, and wakes up the next morning to discover that she's now married to the man she cheated on her husband with. Then, over the course of the series, realizes that through orgasm, she's being transported into a multiverse.
There are plenty of stories out there about someone being stuck in a multiverse or finding themselves in different realities and different paths. We've seen that exploration of the "what if," but I've never seen one where your portal into the multiverse is the female orgasm. Why that?
"It's a show about fantasy and seeing fantasies played out to their often disastrous ends."
I was interested in centering a woman's pleasure in a way that was integral to the narrative. My mom is an incredible video artist and really raised me to look at media and pop culture through a feminist lens. Growing up, she was really focused on the sexual objectification of women on screen. It's rare that in those scenarios, a woman's pleasure is actually even a part of the conversation. This is a heady answer, but there was a part of me that wanted to subvert that paradigm.
I also think, for me personally, I was experiencing a sexual awakening later in my life in my 30s. When I talked to more women that age, it seemed that it was actually a sort of universal experience. I hadn't seen that explored on screen. I thought this would be a sort of irreverent and comedic way to explore what a sexual awakening might look like, and what a woman's embodiment might look like through a sort of sci-fi lens.
It is a story that asks the questions of "Why?" Why this is happening, and why we have this dissatisfaction and this hunger and this restlessness. How did you do the research for this? It is a mystical, philosophical, almost scholarly investigation, while being fun and funny and weird.
Well, I'm certainly not a scholar, but I did start to become really intrigued by Buddhism, especially as a central tenet and theme throughout this series, and how desire is reckoned with in Buddhism. Buddhism is so much about how to navigate human suffering. The show is really about that too, and what to do with that eternal desire for more, no matter what stage or station you're at in your life.
I did read a lot about that philosophy. I thought it translated really beautifully into Mae's story, because it is about embracing a certain amount of uncertainty in order to quiet a lot of those voices that keep us in a state of restlessness. I definitely didn't abide by a multiverse formula. I was creating a bit more of a fable that was playing with some old mythologies.
It's also very much based on your personal life. What inspired this breakthrough story for you?
I was contending with some similar questions and struggles myself. I had this idea about a year before quarantine, but I was working on a number of other things. Then I wrote the whole season early in lockdown, and it really just served as a lifeline for me. It was a way for me to try to answer some of those more difficult existential questions, or at least try to answer them. I still don't have them answered.
"I thought this would be an irreverent and comedic way to explore what a sexual awakening might look like."
It was a very important and cathartic experience for me as a writer. Every step of the way has also been cathartic because giving voice to those words as a performer is a whole other thing, and building these worlds. But it's a show that is also about fantasy and seeing fantasies played out to their often disastrous ends. In quarantine, so many of us were relying on fantasy so heavily because we were so isolated. I really let my imagination run wild and allowed for myself to go on Mae's adventure with her when I was feeling really trapped.
This is about the extension of the fantasy and the 10 years later and the, "That person that was my fantasy is now my day-to-day, my daily grind."
Yeah. Boring. Well, the grass is always greener. A universal issue for so many people is coveting what they don't have or imagining that what someone else has, it would be a happier existence. "Slip" allows you to jump to the other side of the fence and see what that grass would actually look like.
I want to talk about the sex, and creating that environment on a set where you are writing, directing, and then you are there in those moments with these other performers. You had an intimacy coordinator. How do you create that sense of trust, collaboration and safety?
I think it's helpful that I'm also in the scenes with those people, because I'm putting my own body on the line and at risk, as they are. Inherently there's more trust from the jump. But our intimacy coordinator was amazing, and it's so much about being really meticulous in terms of the choreography of each sex scene.
I also, directorially, really wanted to distinguish each sex scene since they are set pieces of every episode. It was just about having those conversations with my intimacy coordinator and really outlining beat by beat, what body parts would be exposed, what body parts would be touched, and then the actors and their teams consenting to that long before we're shooting, so there's no surprises. And then, when we get there, we talk through the choreography again.
There's obviously such a harrowing history of people feeling exploited, especially women, in sex scenes in film and television, so that was really important to me to create an environment that felt safe for my co-stars and safe for me.
You have been outspoken about your own experiences on sets and in environments in this industry that were not intimate, but where you still were dealing with individuals, by your own account, who were predatory. How much of an impact does that have?
"There's obviously such a harrowing history of people feeling exploited, especially women, in sex scenes in film and television."
My directorial debut was a movie called "Band Aid" that I also wrote, directed and starred in. On that, I hired a crew that was made up entirely of women. I was interested in what that would feel like, having been on some sets where I witnessed not just inequity behind the camera in terms of hiring practices, but also some uncomfortable experiences.
I have many amazing relationships professionally with men, but I just wanted to see what that would feel like, and it was incredible. I try to hire as many women as department heads as I can whenever I'm working. But much of the environment on a set is dictated by the person running it and so I take that responsibility really seriously. Energy is really contagious. I try to just set a good example and tone.
You've had two pretty big movies come out this year. I've heard you say that you don't know how to not write and make art that's about your life. When you're on a set with other people and you're collaborating with them, is that a challenge for you, to let go of the reins and be in someone else's reality?
No, I like it. It's such a nice break from wearing all the hats. When I was doing Ari Aster's movie, I remember I was in my trailer and the producer came up and was like, "I'm so sorry you're waiting so long for your scene." And I was like, "It's so nice to just be in a trailer laying down." I really love being able to do all of those things independent from one another as well as at the same time.
You are a very important figure in "Beau Is Afraid," and you are also playing a character who is then played by someone else. As an actor, how do you coordinate that, especially when it's Patti LuPone?
I studied her. I studied her from afar on my own, just watching videos. She's so singular in her mannerisms and in her tone. Then, once we got to Montreal, where we shot, we spent a lot of time together. I had her read all of my scenes into a recorder, and then I would just listen to the way that she said them and try my best to mimic them.
In some scenes, we were doing them at the same time because Ari would do quick crosscuts between us. She would always go first, which is a wild experience as an actor, to watch another actor say your lines, and then to go in and try to mimic, but also make it authentic to my own take. But it was a dream. I mean, who better to study?
It must be interesting as an actor to have someone look at you and say, "You know who she could play?"
The greatest compliment.
I have heard you say that you like to lean into the things that scare you. What are you working on right now that is scaring you? Maybe Season 2?
Season 2. Yeah. Roku greenlit a writers' room for Season 2. We just finished writing the entire second season. I would say that is scary. Second seasons are challenging, so that was quite a task. It was the first time that I had showrun a room. I wrote Season 1 by myself, and I've really only written films on my own. That was a new experience and one that was so thrilling. The next film that I'm going to write is definitely something that scares me. I'm not going to talk about what it is, but it's elevating.
The fact that Roku has done this with you is unusual and unique. They just gave you almost carte blanche with this show. How did that come about?
Dakota Johnson's production company, TeaTime, came on board, and we brought it to Roku. They read all seven scripts and gave me a green light to series without one script note, and within a couple months, we were in pre-production, which is really unheard of. It was such a fast-tracked production schedule, but it was such a vote of confidence.
"The next film that I'm going to write is definitely something that scares me."
I wrote all seven because I wanted someone to put their trust in the vision and to see that I had it. I had come from a studio film, and I think I intentionally wanted to create something that had a few less hands in it. I couldn't believe that Roku afforded me that opportunity and that much creative freedom, and I'm so grateful to them.
Growing up, your mom was a big film buff, but you went to a lot of independent alternative films. You have said you still have gaps in your pop culture knowledge. What's a blockbuster that you have never seen?
Oh God, there's so many. I've never seen "Star Wars." I think I've seen sort of bits and pieces. I think I saw "Return of the Jedi."
But you don't want to commit.
I can't commit to that. I could answer not a single question. I know characters' names.
If I said Han Solo to you . . .
I'd understand. I have to be able to function as a human being in this world, so I know how to fake it till I make it. I don't even know if I've seen "The Wizard of Oz" all the way through. My mom really was not a pop culture [person]. She was very sort of anti-capitalist and wanted me to just be exposed to obscure, bleak European cinema.
