Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, it got worse.
That's right, it's another Manchester United post-mortem. Although this time it is surely the most needed.
United were absolutely hammered at Brentford on Saturday, going 4-0 down in 35 minutes and looking alarmingly incapable of stopping the red and white wide which headed toward David de Gea's goal - as much as he was guarding it at all.
The defeat has sparked a new round of claim and counter-claim over just what is going on at Old Trafford, so we've reached out to our Mirror Football team to see what they think.
We gave them three key questions, which were:
What do you think a realistic finishing position is for United this season?
Has your opinion on them changed already?
Are there any drastic changes you'd make immediately to stop the rot?
Want to know what they said? Read on to find out.
David McDonnell
After the debacle of their first two Premier League games under Erik ten Hag, a realistic finishing position for Manchester United is mid-table at best.
While Ten Hag is culpable for team selection and the way he set his side up against Brighton and Brentford, United's new boss has been handicapped by the club's failure to deliver him the players he needs.
Chelsea, Tottenham and Arsenal, all of whom finished above United last season, have spent more and strengthened their squads with key signings to consolidate their status as top-four contenders.
United, in contrast, have made three signings which have failed to address the biggest areas of concern within ten Hag's squad. United need a goalkeeper to challenge David De Gea, as well as a right-back to replace Diogo Dalot, who is simply not good enough.
They also need a holding midfielder, a creative midfielder and at least one striker, arguably two. As former interim boss Ralf Rangnick said, United need "six, eight, maybe 10 players" to have any chance of being relevant again.
Simon Mullock
This is the worst Manchester United team since....last season.
Erik ten Hag will be lucky to finish in the top 10 unless the club's American owners realise they have a crisis on their hands.
United were sixth in May and qualified for the Europa League. But European football is the last thing Ten Hag needs because it means his time to work on the training ground with the squad he inherited will be limited.
The Dutchman's other problem is that Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham and Arsenal have all improved over the summer, so those five will quickly be out of sight.
Brighton and Brentford already know from playing United that the Reds have deteriorated further - and they will have United in their sights now.
The Glazer family have spent big money in the transfer market over the last decade - but the wrong people have been trusted to spend it.
The Americans must now put their faith in Ten Hag and give him the money he needs for targets like Frenkie De Jong, Antony and Cody Gakpo.
But they won't. So, just two games into the new season, and it looks bleak for the biggest club in the country.
Freddie Keighley
There wasn't much optimism surrounding Manchester United on the eve of the season after an underwhelming summer of transfer business.
That being said, few could have predicted just how badly they would start, losing at home to Brighton before an embarrassing thrashing at Brentford.
They look miles away from a team who can compete for Champions League qualification and, based on their first two performances, United would be lucky to end up in the top half of the Premier League.
A finish in the Europa League spots is the best they can hope for and that may well prove too much to ask, so a first foray in the Europa Conference League awaits.
With a derby against Liverpool up next, Erik ten Hag must deploy a five-man defence in an effort to stem the flow of goals his side are conceding. Otherwise, Mohamed Salah, Darwin Nunez and Luis Diaz will have a field day at Old Trafford.
James Nursey
Most teams are going through the gears this month in a bid to find their top form but Manchester United seem to have started the season in the reverse.
The club and team are clearly in decline and it is hard to see them finishing the season with European football again. Forget the Champions League, they will do well to make the Europa Conference League on the evidence so far.
I visited Holland twice last term covering Leicester and Wales and the Dutch football writers I spoke to were confident that Erik ten Hag was the coach to revive United.
They said he was a meticulous coach and listed a number of attributes but I don't think they or Ten Hag appreciated the scale of the rebuilding job at Old Trafford.
His main quality appears to be developing young players but United's crisis amid growing fan unrest is a far from ideal situation in which to nurture talent.
I thought we would see progress under Ten Hag after a pre-season in charge but seemingly not. Now United clearly need to accelerate their plans for a shake up of the squad before the window closes to get players better suited to their new coach's style.
Jake Polden
Man Utd shouldn't be concerned with achieving more than an eighth-place finish this season - and perhaps even next year too.
Erik ten Hag's side can't handle the Premier League so they certainly don't need European football to also contend with.
If we didn't know United were in trouble at the close of last season then it's clear for everyone to see now and the only way to fix this mess is to start again - exactly as Mikel Arteta did at Arsenal.
Ten Hag's first job is therefore being ruthless in the transfer market and parting company with at least 10 players: Cristiano Ronaldo, Harry Maguire, David de Gea, Marcus Rashford and Anthony Martial are all on that list.
Once these individuals are gone, Ten Hag can slowly set about signing young stars to play a certain way in his system alongside moulding the likes of Anthony Elanga and Hannibal Mejbri.
Arteta did exactly this when he parted company with Mesut Ozil, Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang and Matteo Guendouzi etc. and replaced them with Bukayo Saka, Emile Smith Rowe and Gabriel Martinelli.
Yes, Arsenal had two years in the wilderness as a result and yes it was a stressful period for the manager. But two years fly by in football and the Gunners are now back moving in the right direction.
Where do you think Manchester United will finish this season? Let us know in the comments section
Mike Walters
Some of us are old enough to remember Manchester United being relegated - just six years after a dynasty built by Sir Matt Busby on the genius of Best, Law and Charlton conquered Europe.
Some of us remember Denis Law's back-heeled winner for the other lot across town nailing down the coffin.
Some of us remember Tottenham following them through the trapdoor three years later.
It can happen to big clubs - and it still does. Just ask Newcastle, Aston Villa, Leeds or Nottingham Forest fans.
Are United too good to go down? Yes - on paper, of course they are. But football matches are played on grass, not on paper.
On the evidence of Saturday's gutless shambles at Brentford (and that's the polite version), they are more likely to operate in the bottom half of the table for a while yet.
Top four finish? You're having a laugh. Manchester City, Liverpool, Tottenham, Arsenal and Chelsea are all miles better than this shower. And right now, Newcastle look more organised.
Top six? Only the most brazen optimist at Old Trafford would back them to reach such rarefied altitude, especially if Erik ten Hag persists in picking Bruno Fernandes and Christian Eriksen in the same team.
The first thing Ten Hag must do is to settle on a preferred formation, and decide whether United are going to press high up the pitch (which they are ill-equipped to do) or sit deep and hit teams on the break - which is much more up Cristiano Ronaldo, Marcus Rashford and Jadon Sancho's street.
My prediction: Seventh.
And if they get their act together, maybe - just maybe - one of the domestic cups.
Daniel Orme
Just two matches into a new era at Old Trafford and Manchester United are already playing catch-up on their rivals. Following a desperate season under first Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and then Ralf Rangnick, Erik ten Hag was expected to be a breath of fresh air at Old Trafford but instead it is more of the same.
The debacle at Brentford sees the Red Devils prop up the Premier League table and it is tough to see them escaping the current mire - let alone assemble a challenge for a Champions League place, which would have been the target immediately after Ten Hag put pen to paper on his long-term contract with the club.
As of now, the best that United look like achieving are the lower reaches of the European places - potentially seventh - but only if Ten Hag decides on the side that he would like to deploy for the majority of the season, a decision he is yet to reach.
David Anderson
Top four was always going to a stretch for Manchester United because of the improvement in Tottenham and Arsenal and it looks like they will end up scrapping for sixth again.
I knew Erik ten Hag would need a couple of seasons to turn United around, but I’m alarmed by the way they have begun.
He has been in position for four months, yet the rot, which began under Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, accelerated under Wreck-it Ralf Rangnick, has continued.
I don’t see what changes he can make in the short term because even David De Gea, United’s only decent performer in recent years, has collapsed.
There are very few players I would keep and Ten Hag has very little to work with.
United now are paying for the price for years of poor decision making at every level and the tragedy from their perspective is that they have wasted this summer when they had a chance to bottom out at least.
Kieran King
Erik ten Hag witnessed one of the most shambolic Manchester United performances in recent history against Brentford, but could it get worse before it gets better?
The Red Devils are all over the place, and it is perfectly summed up by their decision to be open to sell James Garner this summer. United's midfield has been hopeless in their opening two matches, and surely giving Garner a chance to impress would do any harm before selling him?
If they do not sign another central midfielder and do not continue with Fred and Scott McTominay, then United will not finish higher than sixth this season. I don't think Lisandro Martinez is the answer, even in midfield.
I tipped United to finish fifth at the start of the season and thought they could challenge for the top-four, but given Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea's start, then I don't think United will come close. Although there are still 36 games to go, the Red Devils look way off in every area.
There's just over two weeks to go until the transfer window slams shut, and they must sign a midfielder. Why have they not gone for Youri Tielemans yet? He is available for around £25m and doesn't want to sign a new Leicester contract.
He could easily slot into that midfield and improve it drastically. Even Ruben Neves would be an astute addition, with the midfielder out of contract at Wolves next summer. This is a must for United.
Andy Dunn
Ninth. And - on behalf of my Manchester United-supporting friends - that is blind optimism.
Yes, there have only been two matches but the performances in those games have been so wretched that it is hard to see anything other than a season of struggle for footballers whose collective form has fallen off a cliff over the past 12 months and is still plummeting.
Say what you like about recruitment, about coaching, about the ownership, but how do you account for so many key players - the likes of Harry Maguire, Bruno Fernandes, Marcus Rashford and Jason Sancho, to name only a few - going into a tailspin?
Maguire has to be given a break and new faces have to come in.
Panic buys? Yes, maybe … but it is already time to panic.
Nathan Ridley
Manchester United are still in with a good shout of finishing fourth this season. Hold on, don’t keep scrolling, because Erik ten Hag’s first campaign in the Old Trafford dugout can yet be a successful one.
Remember a certain other Dutchman who took five points from his first five Premier League games? Well, that man eventually led his side to a top-four finish and secured Champions League football, a solid start despite the lack of silverware.
Coming off the back of a shockingly bad season, welcoming a raft of new signings and implementing a whole new footballing philosophy, there’re multiple similarities between Louis van Gaal’s early days and Ten Hag’s.
But like his predecessor, he’ll have to make some changes - and it starts at the back. Forget more transfers, firstly rescue Lisandro Martinez from his nightmare and move him into holding midfield.
Then bring Aaron Wan-Bissaka in from the cold to replace the shaky Diogo Dalot and hand Tyrell Malacia a starting berth, showing Luke Shaw that his place in the XI isn’t guaranteed - exactly what spurred him on during his spectacular 2020-21 season.
As Ole Gunnar Solskjaer found during his best spell, the goals will come from United’s mercurial attackers once they shore up their rearguard. With Liverpool coming to town next Monday, fixing the Red Devils’ defence is now Ten Hag’s top priority.
David Maddock
I've been looking back at the 1973-74 Manchester United squad that got relegated, and everyone said back then they were far too good to go down. Readers, they were not.
They actually finished six points adrift of safety, despite having players like Alex Stepney, Martin Buchan, Brian Greenhoff, Jim Holton, Alex Forsyth, Stewart Houston, George Graham, Jim McCaliog, Sammy McIlroy, Brian Kidd, Lou Macari and Willie Morgan in their side.
Let's put that into context. Buchan was a considerably better ball playing defender than Lisandro Martinez, and he could head the ball too.
Holton was more commanding that Harry Maguire, Greenhoff one of the outstanding defenders/defensive midfielders of his or any generation (and considerably more talented than Fred or Scott McTominay). Both full backs were better than any currently at Old Trafford.
In midfield, Stroller Graham was a similar signing to Christian Eriksen, while there was depth in there that United currently don't have.
Up front they were light...but not lighter than this current forward line, where Cristiano Ronaldo's presence is an absolute disaster, and one of the most ridiculous signings of even this past, baffling decade where United have specialised in mind-blowingly bad transfers.
Oh, and I did mention they brought George Best back? But at least they realised the error of bringing back iconic players well past their prime, and got rid of him by the turn of the year.
All this is my way of saying that in their current mess, United's ambition must be to first avoid relegation, and then to weed out the forest of dead wood which is holding them back.
It should have happened already, but for God's sake get rid of Ronaldo, Eric Bailly, Phil Jones, Raphael Varane, Luke Shaw, Aaron Wan-Bissaka, Fred, Donny van de Beek, Anthony Martial and the rest, and bring in some bloody leaders.
Oh, and where the hell is the midfield? That needs addressing like, yesterday.
Where do you think Manchester United will finish this season? Let us know in the comments section
Josh O'Brien
Despite the dismal display of just about every other Manchester United player, Cristiano Ronaldo remains Erik ten Hag's most pressing problem.
The uncertainty surrounding the 37-year-old's future and his subsequent temper tantrums are doing nothing more than harming the morale around United at the moment.
If Ten Hag is told he can't try to cash in on Ronaldo before the window's close, expect United to finish no higher than sixth yet again this season.
By having the five-time Ballon d'Or winner on the books, it is as if any manager HAS to play him or fear the consequences of daring to bench the former Real Madrid man.
United's fans and hierarchy alike must remain patient with Ten Hag, if given time to implement his ideas - most of which are unlikely to include Ronaldo, the Red Devils could return to their former glories eventually - but it will take time.
Alan Smith
It is almost certain to get worse before it gets better. If they deliver a similarly deplorable defensive performance against Liverpool on Monday, Jurgen Klopp's team will inflict an even more embarrassing defeat on a club that is rotting from the core.
Nothing less than a change of ownership, and then a change of structure within the club, can restore them to the top.
But in the immediate Lisandro Martinez, targeted mercilessly in the opening two games, needs to be taken out of the firing line or at least be used in holding midfield - but there are problems in every area and no tactical or personnel tweak will solve their issues.
Already a top-four finish looks out of reach and a Europa League spot looks a longshot.
Perhaps the short-term pain of another defeat, to their biggest rivals, could end up being a good thing in the mid-term if it prompted significant action in the transfer market?
Alex Richards
So when the season began, I had this Manchester United side pitched as likely finishing sixth again.
The five ahead of them had all improved and that gap would get bigger, but I just couldn't see anyone below breaking past them because, by hook or by crook, they still win enough games.
I thought Erik ten Hag would bring in new ideas and change things. That they'd become a more modern side, tactically more savvy. Instead, Ten Hag has begun life in the Premier League with his best Frank de Boer impression.
No doubt he needs time, the question is whether these players will allow him any. Because the 2-1 loss to Brighton was bad, but you can write it off given Graham Potter's team are a very good side.
But losing 4-0 at Brentford and in the manner that they did so. It looked like within 135 minutes of the Dutchman's arrival, some players had already downed tools, giving up on what he wanted to do and his management.
In the opening 45 minutes, Fred looked like the only guy even remotely busting a gut out there or caring about what was happening - and he was hooked at the break.
They look an absolute mess defensively, weak in the air, slow on the ground and uncomfortable in possession. Raphael Varane must cry himself to sleep at night thinking it wasn't worth leaving Real Madrid for this, no matter how much he's paid.
The midfield has already dragged Christian Eriksen down to its level, with Bruno Fernandes still living off the glory of his opening 12 months at the club and the others having proven time and again they're not good enough.
And in attack, Jadon Sancho is a shadow of his Dortmund self, Marcus Rashford looks scared to run at a full-back and Ronaldo isn't helping matters at all.
They're not going to go down. It's silly to think it. Eventually they'll go on a little run and stack up some points.
But a mid-table finish, between 8th-12th isn't out of the question if they don't improve fast.
Mark Jones
We know about the ownership. They are deplorable and should not be allowed to run a world football institution in the manner that they do.
We know that real change will never happen at the club while they are still there, and we should support those fans who continually speak up against the Glazers and peacefully protest against their rule - as they were again at Brentford on Saturday.
What we don't know, though, is how this clearly broken group of players are going to react if nothing significant is done in the last couple of weeks of the transfer window.
Given that it is such a mess it is almost just as much about who they can get out rather than who they can get in now. There are no magic bullets out there that will transform this miserable group of players overnight, as previous arrivals have shown.
So it's about hunkering down for Erik ten Hag now, and getting through these rocky early weeks by chiselling out some points from somewhere.
What I saw in front of my disbelieving eyes at Brentford on Saturday was a group of players who are in no way capable of that, and so darker days could lie ahead.
Where will they finish? If we are to go along with the theory that United are a third of the way through the 30-year title drought that Liverpool experienced then how about a repeat of their rivals' lowest Premier League placing?
Eighth. If they're lucky.
