Caste and untouchability owe their origins to brahmanical Hinduism. But caste oppression is not restricted to the Hindu community. Dalit Christians and Dalit Muslims face challenges in asserting their rights and demanding affirmative action.
In this two-part episode on What's Your Ism, Sudipto Mondal speaks to Ambedkarite author Shalin Maria Lawrence and sociologist-professor Khalid Anis Ansari about the complexities of anti-caste politics among Christians and Muslims in South Asia.
In part one, Lawrence talks about caste oppression in the Christian community, Periyar, caste identity, political lobbying in Tamil Nadu, the POA Act, and laws to protect the rights of minorities at the intersection of caste.
She also recounts her lived experiences of discrimination in church. “Within my church, I’m an untouchable. Within the church my ancestors built. The church I stopped going to. For generations, only Dalit women have been sweeping the church. Why?”
Watch.
Shalin_audio
Sudipto: [00:00:00] The most influential ism in the country today appears to be Hindutva.
It has taken a long time for this ideology to come of age. But what happened to the other ideological movements that began in the early 20th century? The RSS will turn a hundred years old next year, but So will the Communist Party of India. We
-: will always be with you. We will always be with you. Long live India.
Long live India.
Sudipto: Ambedkarism, Marxism, Liberalism, Dravidianism, Feminism, Gandhism. What role are these great big isms of the 20th century playing in the 21st century? What relevance do they have today?
-: We
Sudipto: I'm an atheist in the same way as I'm an a leprechaun. Why have there been casteism existing in the country still today?
Feminism by
-: definition is the belief that men and women should have equal rights. The nature of the system is to be as mean and rotten [00:01:00] as you can. Uh, to try to maximize profits.
Sudipto: The national elections are around the corner, and what better time than now to talk about isms. I'm Sudipto Mandal, and welcome to this special election series of What's Your Ism?
Hello and welcome to another episode of What's Your Ism. Today, we're going to understand the ideology of a woman who is Nadu. She's a scholar, activist, and an author. Shalin Maria Lawrence, thank you for coming on Watch Your Rhythm. Thanks.
Shalin: Thanks. Vanakkam. Vanakkam, Sudipto. It's nice being here. Thank you.
Sudipto: And I think this is a little difficult time for you and for the last couple of days you've been under attack. I'm going to come to that. I'm going to let you talk about what has been happening in Tamil Nadu. the Tamil Twitter space over the last, over the weekend. But, uh, before that, uh, you know, to, to get started, I just wanted to flag the point that Shalin, now, how do I put it?
You, when I say you're [00:02:00] embattled, You're, I mean, definitely the right wing doesn't like you too much, but I understand that the CPM or the left, the Dravidian parties also have, have it against you and, you know, have been coming up, their trolls and their supporters have been coming after you, you know, and that's perhaps what makes you unique, uh, in that entire space, which is that you're not a Sanghi, okay?
In spite of which you are quite a prime target for the, for the non Sanghis, for the, for the so called, uh, progressive crowd of Tamil Nadu. So to get this ball rolling, I think I'll start with your critics who are perhaps a little closest to your, your ideology. You're an Ambedkarite, an anti caste voice.
And I've been noticing off late that a lot of Dalit Christians, for example, have come under criticism from quote unquote Ambedkarites who believe that Dalit Christians should not get the S. C. Right. Uh, [00:03:00] how, how, how did that come about? Can you just first talk about that experience and where you got attacked from?
And, uh, you know, the people who are saying that SC is an essentially Buddhist Hindu or a Sikh category and does not include, uh, Christians and Muslims for a good reason. So what do you think that good reason is, or do you think it should be changed?
Shalin: No, it should be changed because it is about my identity, right?
See, for example, uh, if there is a black person and, uh, the black person in us gets an African American gets in, uh, you know, affirmative action and tomorrow he just changes his, uh, you know, that is based on his race, right? Uh, because racism still exists in race discrimination still exist in America. And tomorrow, if he goes and changes his religion, you cannot call him white.
Right. You, you cannot call Malcolm X White because he's, he became Muslim, or, uh, you cannot call, you know, um, Christianity was one of the main reason. Bible was one of the main, uh, backbone of racism in, uh, you know, in America. And, [00:04:00] uh, but Malcolm X believed in Bible, a lot of, you know, uh, anti-car movement, people, anti race, uh, movement.
People believed in the Bible. So you can't call MLKS White. So likewise, how can you call a Dalit, a person who is untouchable by the caste system, um, you know, a non scheduled caste or a non Dalit because they don't belong to the Hindu religion anymore. You know, the Hindu religion itself did not exist.
For a long time, just 150 years back or 200 years back, the Britishers, you know, uh, put up, uh, you know, they collated, uh, they organized all the, you know, um, indigenous people who were not Christians, not Muslims, you know, not any, that's what the constitution says. Who's a Hindu? A Hindu is someone who is not a Christian.
Muslim or a Sikh that is a Hindu, right? So obviously where is this, uh, Dalits being Hindu comes because Ayodhya's Pandit says that we are indigenous Buddhists. We are Mullavasi [00:05:00] Buddhists. You know, when Ambedkar was converting their people, you know, uh, as Dalits, as he was, you know, uh, converting them, uh, voices from South, uh, MC Raja or, uh, you know, uh, Ritamala Srinivasan, uh, he went ahead and said, Why should I convert when I'm already a Buddhist?
He said, I'm not a Hindu. I'm a Paraya and I'm not a Hindu and I will not convert. So converting, not converting, both ways. I'm not an Hindu. I'm an indigenous person and I am a, um, Poorvakudi Bautis. That's what they say. I am a Mulyavasi Buddhism. Tamil Buddhism dates 3000 years back. Tamil Buddhism, that is the root of whatever you call as Damedian politics right now.
What do you call as Tamil politics right now? That is the root. So we've never been Hindus. So when you say Garbhapasi, I'm wondering where should I go? Because I have been converted for like, uh, six years. I, I can't go to, because before sixth generation, there was not a Hindu organized religion. So should I, I should be going to Buddhism for [00:06:00] garbhavasi rather than Hinduism and RSS make this point and I'm like very, you know, I'm like laughing at them.
They don't have any data on this.
Sudipto: Let me quickly come in over here. So I, I, I, I find that very interesting, you know, this entire, uh, discourse of Ayodhya and, you know, before anybody proposed it, it was Ayodhya who proposed, uh, the concept of Buddhism as an emancipatory. faith. Uh, but, but, uh, while we, while we are on this topic of, uh, Dalit Christians, right?
Uh, let me share with you, uh, some of the things that have been said in order to justify the denial of, uh, SC status, uh, to both Christians and Muslims. And this is coming from, how do I put it? Um, can I call them Maharashtrian, uh, Ambedkarites, North Indian, Hindi speaking, uh, Ambedkarites. Academic
Shalin: Ambedkarites.
There is a group of academic Ambedkarites, yeah.
Sudipto: Okay. Uh, but you know, they, they, they, I picked up something very, very recently where, where there was a discussion and it was said that there is no moral justification for [00:07:00] granting SC status to either the Dalit Christians or Dalit Muslims, uh, because they have been rulers in the past.
Right? That there was an entire, uh, the British Empire, which, which, which, uh, gave Christians a lot of, uh, say supposedly a lot of power. I don't know.
Shalin: The British gave a lot of power to Brahmins actually. The sanitary workers were maintained sanitary workers. Christians were doing menial jobs and we were just like that.
Missionaries only did good for us. British maintained the caste system. British maintained the status quo. There were some things given by them, like the depressed class reservation that they only not give to Christians. No, they gave to everybody. No, it was blanket depressed class reservation. We were the first one to get the reservation in India, the affirmative action, right?
And they gave the, in Madras presidency, they gave the political representation before 1920s itself that we got, everybody got it, not just Christians, right? The British were Treating us as Indians, not Christians or [00:08:00] Hindus or Muslims or Dalits, okay? Mohammedians, that's what they used to call, not like that.
So everybody were Indians for them. And so, another point is, uh, see, in, in nowadays, when they say, I will not accept you as a SE, I think the only point of contention is sharing the reservation. Sharing that, you know, percent of reservation, what you have, that is where they are fighting. They're not saying, okay, you're not this.
So they're putting up all, they're bringing in all invalid, you know, arguments. Or sometimes it is more inhuman arguments to call your brother. Who's still an untouchable in this country because I'm an untouchable. I, I, you know what happened when I went to, you know, I'm a Christian. Um, I went to, uh, Matura.
I went to, because I, you know, I used to travel a lot in UP. I went to this birthplace of Krishna. And as soon as I reached, uh, I was like 18 years old. And this person didn't ask me whether you're a Christian or a Muslim or Hindu. He asked me, Brahmin ho, the guy with the, he said, Brahmin ho. And we were like, [00:09:00] and then he said, don't touch the walls.
He said, don't touch the walls, come inside and give us money. And that's the time, first time I'm like, okay, I am an untouchable. So he didn't ask my caste, uh, religion. He only asked whether I'm Brahmin or not. India is about, are you a Brahmin or not? And then Tamil Nadu is all about, are you a non Dalit or a Dalit?
So the religion is not a problem here. And then we have Christianity. We did not. you know, change to Christianity because, oh, it's a good, you know, we will get out of caste. We did not want to remain in a system which called us untouchables. We just want to get away from it. And we have all the reasons for it.
And constitution guarantees us to profess our faith and to, you know, To preach or profess constitution says that and then to, and in, within the church, I'm an untouchable within my church, my church, the church, which I stopped going to where the church, which my, uh, you know, uh, uh, elders, my ancestors built, where they are, the Dalit women are made to sweep the church in the name of, you know, a congregation of Mary.
And [00:10:00] I'm like sitting in like, why so many years for generation only Dalit women sweep the church. Only Dharitvamans leave the church. So that's where I saw the discrimination exists within the church. You have 18 diocese Catholic Osis in that only two of them are Dali bishops and 70% of Christianity in, you know, in du are Dalis.
But we do not have, you know, there are places where are certain churches where we can't enter and there are d dual symmetries. So you can symmetries you said? Yeah, there are d dual in and only have two symmetry. And my symmetry, the, the one which, uh, my family, you know, gets it from the britishers. We, we are in the last me.
You know, the last part where the goats shit and the pigs shit, that is a place where we get buried in the hole of the symmetry. So you don't, I am a Dalit, but I converted because there is Dalit theology, there is suffering, you know, I, I see a God, a God who's not super, but a God who does not, you know, steal things or whatever, a God who died [00:11:00] for you.
And then I see someone without clothes, he's been mocked upon, his clothes are auctioned. So I'm like connecting with that. I like it. There is wine, there is bread, I like it, you know, we can convert
Sudipto: it. Let me come here quickly. So you're saying two things. One, you're saying that, uh, Christianity did offer emancipation for those who were under Brahminical Hinduism, but you're also saying that the church as an institution.
is, is, has been quite casteist and despite this, the Indian church, the Indian church has been quite casteist. Now, uh, let me, let me use that to get into another point where there are, there is a criticism that Dalit Christians are not bothered about the anti caste agitation, that they are more Christian.
This is not me. I'm just saying that this is one of the things that I picked up, right? Uh, saying that they, they would rather say that they are Christian than, than say that they are Dalit, right? And the, the, the conspiracy [00:12:00] theory, the conspiracy theory is that, uh, the SC Dalits who, who at present get notified as SC, uh, still have that radical potential to overthrow the caste system.
The, the attempt to add Dalit Christians, to add Dalit Muslims dilutes that. The radical potential of the Ambedkarite movement. And in fact, it is a leftist or a, or a, uh, you know, liberal conspiracy to dilute the radicalism of the Dalit movement, the Ambedkarite movement by introducing people who don't even relate to the anti caste struggle.
Uh, how do you respond?
Shalin: First thing you have to note that we came under schedule caste. It is an ethnic identity. Scheduled caste or scheduled community, scheduled class is an ethnic identity. I think Chandrachud also, uh, Honorable Judge, you know, gave an explanation on that recently in one of his observations.
So we, we scheduled Class or cause means that these are indigenous people that are the, we call ourselves Adi Dravida's the [00:13:00] pariahs. So like Adi Andhra, we are Adi Dravida's. We belong to this place ethnically. So it's an ethnic identity. And then, uh, we had the schedule car status until 1950 in 1950 Rajendra Prasad.
Under this Congress government, Rajendra Prasad, he brought a, you know, um, uh, presidential order, uh, you know, scrapping it and, you know, and making us, you know, non scheduled cars. Don't you think this is RSS agenda? This is RSS agenda because I read about Rajendra Prasad recently that how when he took oath as the first president of India, he made, you know, a hundred, uh, Brahmin priests to come to the Rashtrapati Bhavan and then there he washed the feet of all those people.
So this Brahmin Hindu man goes and scraps a law, uh, something which is there. He erased my identity. He erased my caste identity. So [00:14:00] you Dalit brothers should have. But you just blank there. So what gave the strength for RSS? What gave the strength for Jan Sangh? To, you know, who gave that strength? Congress.
The presidential order, Rajendra Prasad gave the strength to RSS to build a majoritarian nation based on one religion. That was anti radical. So, this, this is the reason that, you know, Hindutva, a right wing extremism started growing. Now, you're saying, you know, BJP is, you know, fundamentalist. No, Congress was once also fundamentalist.
I don't know. Pranab Mukherjee, I didn't know Pranab Mukherjee was RSS. Until, you know, 10 years back, you had a RSS person sitting in your office and then you said you're fighting Hindutva. Who are you fooling with? Who are you fooling with? So the whole country, the majoritarian ethos is about Hinduism. So you have not let us practice our [00:15:00] religion and you have scrapped our ethnical right.
Will any country will scrap the, you know, anything saying, no, you will not be native Indian because you're not native Indian in America because you suddenly became a Christian. Will they do it? They will never do it. They're not saying you're not black anymore, but I've lost my schedule caste status. I lost.
This person is coming and saying, oh, she's a D convert. Tell me, tell me
Sudipto: about pcr r Tell me about, yeah. This person, I'm
Shalin: telling you, this person comes and tells me online because I go through so much of online harassment, I can't book a one fucking SES thing. He says, we can rape her. We can rape her, and she doesn't, will not apply on her.
He says that to me. I have a screenshot. And what do you think? You think the most radical people right now in India are Dalit Christians because I'm done Dalit Muslims and Buddhists. You know why? Because the whole BJP is riding on the communalism horse [00:16:00] and we are the one we are giving you full tough.
Uh, you know, challenge who else will give you because you're seeing the binary also India's thing is not binary, but when VJP comes to power, the first, you know, it is in power. The first one who got affected with the Kandamal people know how many martyrs in Kandamal died. Are you talking about the Kandamal, Dalit martyrs, Christian martyrs?
Are you talking about the Bihar, the sisters, the sisters, the nuns who were de robed in Bihar and paraded naked in the nineties? Yes. All this happened when Congress was the ruling. No, but BJP had the power even then. I
Sudipto: what you're saying. I just wanted to add to what you're saying, which is that in your own state, I suppose the first atrocity against, mass atrocities against Dalits were committed in Tamil Nadu.
The entire history of, uh, uh, uh, Emanuel Sekaran and what was happening in the
Shalin: south. A lot of them in Kilimanjaro were Christians. Because they were, uh, you know, they belonged to the [00:17:00] Pallar caste and a lot of people were Christians and from the Delta region and most of them, it was on a Christmas Eve, it was on a Christmas Eve that they burned to death.
More than 70 people. So who they died? No. And Emmanuel Segrin, he was a Christian. He was a protestant Christian and he fought so much. He's one, you know, he, this Muthuramalinga Devar, who's been worshipped by the Dravidian parties and all the parties in Tamil Nadu as a freedom fighter. This Muthuramalinga Devar is a dominant caste, violent, violence provoking caste leader.
Who got agitated that this Dalit Christian was sitting in front of him, you know, because he was a military man. He, you know, you used to wear boots, Emmanuel Segrin. So he sat with legs, you know, with the knees on his knees and he couldn't take it. And he said, he went out and said, Oh, this person is it, you know, you let this person sit in front of me.
And next day, Emmanuel Segrin is slain, killed along with a lot of people. And everybody are Christians. And you take it today, you take today, [00:18:00] you're, you're telling no, that we are not saying Dalit Christians, who, who, who are the top most, uh, you know, uh, who, uh, who died for these people, who are the top most human rights defender in this country right now, defending people.
Evidence Kadar is a Catholic Christian, Charlotte Maria Lawrence, who has 23 threats. 23 threats on rape, murder charges on a whole family with, with a very, very morphed, gory morphed photographs. I am a Catholic. I'm a Christian Dalit. Cynthia Stephen is a Christian Dalit. And then you have Ruth Manorama.
And then Stan Swamy, and then you go ahead. You have all the priests, John Suresh, the priest who brought Parai to Tamil Nadu. He was a Dalit Christian. Alex, who was a Dalit Christian, you know, publisher who revived the Renaissance. He got the Renaissance of, you know, the 80s. He brought in the Dalit arts back in, you know, Madurai.
The Parai was brought back. All the Dalit arts and literature came back [00:19:00] because of Alex. Alex was a Dalit Christian. Paratai. People should learn about Paratai. Paratai was a Dalit theologian. He spoke so much of self respect. This Dravidian parties in Tamil Nadu did not talk about these Dalit leaders.
They did not talk about these Dalit Christian leaders. They were Hindutva from the beginning. They were never secular. They were either anti religion, like, you know, either atheist. But they were never been secular. Tamil Nadu has never been secular. Tamil Nadu's identity is Bharatanatyam, Filter Coffee and Madras.
You ha we blame the media. We blame Hindu and Express. You had the textbook, uh, you know, ministry with you. You had the education ministry with you. You could have made a lot of difference. You've been in the power from 19, you know, uh, sixties. What have you done to change the majority ethos of communism in the state?
Leave the country in the state. What have you done? You [00:20:00] have breeded only caste leaders, Hindu caste leaders. So, when I'm going to talk about DMK or Dravidian party, I will talk about Hindu and caste. I'm not going to leave them on the communalism path. They were never secular. They were never secular.
Sudipto: Okay.
Okay. I think now that you've already yourself, uh, gone in the direction of, you know, the critique of the Dravidian parties, let's get there because that was supposed to be my second segment, you know, after the question of Dalit Christians. Um, I'm just trying to see if there's anything I left out in that section because, you know, uh, uh, um, It's great that you actually, uh, gave that shout out, that entire list, uh, that, you know, Cynthia Stephen, Ruth Manorama, Alex, you know, all these people.
Uh, and it's important, I think, because that you say it, because I did read a couple of articles saying, where is the anti caste among Dalit Christians?
Shalin: And the irony is, we, we work for, you know, whenever there is a caste honor killing happens or anything happens, we apply for, you know, SESCPOA for the victims.
Something happens to me or [00:21:00] Kadir, uh, SESCPOA will not be, you know, applied. It cannot be applied. And there is a lot of manual scavengers in Tamil Nadu who died in Chennai.
Sudipto: Quickly let me tell our, uh, uh, listeners who Kadir is. Uh, Kadir is an NGO activist, uh, who, who heads this organization called Evidence.
A lot of us journalists have been working with him. For several years now to, uh, because he's somebody who's most often the first person on the spot when an atrocity case happens. Um, so anyway, so that's, uh, about the Dalit Christian question. Now I think is a good time because you've already started it off, uh, to talk about what has been happening over the last two days.
Let's start from there. Yeah, because that will be a good entry point to talk about your differences with the Dravidian movement. Right. What, what, what exactly happened two days ago? You were at the Vanam festival,
Shalin: and
Sudipto: you said something that really, really, uh, set off the [00:22:00] trolls. There was a lot of sexist abuse and I'm, uh, you know, I'm very sorry that that happened to you.
Um, But the crowd that went after you had a fair number of, uh, communists and a fair, fair number of Dravidian ideologues, right? So what did you say? Okay, let's take it step by step. What did you say to trigger that? What really ticked them off?
Shalin: First of all, I have to appreciate Ranjit for doing a wonderful job with, you know, uh, Dalit arts, literature, because to me, His job does not end with just making movies, he extends beyond that and he includes a lot of people and he, he, uh, builds public discourses, which is like really, you know, and this Vanam, the literature festival has been happening for three years and I've been part of three years.
Everybody takes part in that. Like every cast, every person from every, you know, even Kani Mori has been a part of it, you know, a lot of people. And then, um, uh, I was given a topic as, you know, Dalit topics and, you know, public discourse, what is the Dalit politics and public [00:23:00] discourse. So I go ahead and I talk about Ilay Raja, especially because right now we speak a lot about Ilay Raja's music.
I mean, a lot of people didn't know, don't know that Ilay Raja is a Dalit, that he belongs to, you know, the Pariyar community of the Teni, you know, these people worked in, you know, the. His, his, his whole family has been communists and his whole family has been, you know, working in, uh, cardamom farms and plantations, and they've seen the worst in their life.
And he comes from such a, you know, a caste and class location. And he, you know, and he's one of the biggest geniuses. across the world globally. And then people are here and they are, you know, making fun of him all the time, bad mouthing him, foul mouthing him. Why? Because he
Sudipto: joined the BJP.
Shalin: He didn't join BJP.
He was an appointee of the central government based on, you know, there's an art social sector where they appoint people as, you know, uh, nominated MPs. He's never part of BJP and he's praised Kalanji in a lot of He's praised [00:24:00] Stalin and he's always been, you know, a DMK person. And I would say his politics is very different.
He's been very inclusive. He, you know, he's been with Jayalalithaa, has been with Karnanidhi. He's been very loyal to the Dravidian politics in the first place, but Dravidian politics has never given him the due respect, which he's supposed to. So that's
Sudipto: what you said. So that's what you said.
Shalin: And I said, That's what I said.
Don't badmouth us because these communist groups sitting in Tam, as soon as he wrote a foreword for Modi's book, he just wrote a foreword. Okay? Nothing else. They go ahead, they bash him. They call him like, you know, you are someone who you, who you know, you do, uh, menial jobs. You belong to this barrier community.
You people are good for nothing. Ija is good for nothing. You, this congress leader, Ilan, go, he keeps that, you know, Vera money. Head of Dravidian movement in a stage in Erode and says you beat that parai, no? They call molam, molam in a more derogatory manner. He says you're playing molam. You become, you'll become a music director [00:25:00] He says that word.
You are, you are a, you know, you are a dalit. You are thalthapattavan That is more, you know, derogatory way or thalthapattavan. Tamil Nadu, all these periyar's use the word and he says you, you'll become a music director Who's a bigger music director than Ilayaraja in the world right now? And can you talk like this?
And everybody are clapping and Veeramani is like laughing. You people talk about social justice so much in the North. And everybody in JNU, everybody in, you know, even the Columbia University, they all come and say, Oh, you have a social justice movement, Periyar's movement in Tamil Nadu. And this whole Periyar's movement has been whitewashing the crimes in Tamil Nadu against Dalits, no?
And you, you demean a Dalit, you insult a Dalit, Ranjit also, the way he's been treated, all Dalit creators, writers like me, Dalit activists like me, every time they are dehumanized by these OBCs because Tamil Nadu has a very big OBC population and a very less Brahmin population. And they, in the, in the, in the garb of, uh, you know, in the garb of, uh, anti caste politics, [00:26:00] they spew venom on us.
They talk ill about our Bahujan God, Bahujan deities, and they, you know, they throw tantrums, they'll call us indecent, ugly. Not well, you know, behaved and all those stuff. And this has been happening for a long time because of the Oat Bank politics, the OBC Oat Bank politics and the caste violence is high.
So I'm questioning there. I'm talking about, okay, why are you not? Because I spoke about Reddyur Pandian. See, we were talking about menial jobs. So I spoke about how Reddyur Pandian, uh, hereditary Parai player was forced to, you know, play Parai in the, in the eighties. And he said, I will not play. And he, they cut him off.
They killed him. Kote. Kan also said, I will not play Par because they're supposed to play par and they're considered untouchable. They stay outside the village. If they said, I'll not do, they cut his penis off. They cut his penis off in front of his home, and these people are still making us play parade.[00:27:00]
So I spoke about why you are not, why you have not, you know, respected these people, why you have not honored these people. When you are honoring OBCs. When you are honoring Braman in in Kado. You know, the amount of respect even Hindu Ram gets or whoever gets, everybody gets a lot of respect, but these people, anti caste activists, you have not given importance to them.
So I asked them why you're not given importance to them. That's the question I asked. I said, why are you insulting Nile Raja and his music? I asked these three questions. And then I said, you communists sitting here, you have, there was a book released, whitewashing. You know, when I heard about Marijapi massacre, I heard about it five years back.
I was in trauma for one month. I couldn't handle it. And when I heard about Karamchedu, I couldn't sleep. You know, it was horrible, the blood bath, the blood, it became a blood island. The carnage they did, the West Bengal government. And anytime you go, you know, Nannur, you take [00:28:00] Singur, you take Nandigram, you know, who gets affected, no?
You get, who gets affected? Muslims and Dalits, they get affected. And then, uh, uh, you know, a journalist, a communist journalist, a Brahmin, goes and writes whitewashing a book, whitewashing the whole massacre. And this Adhavan D. Chania, a Dalit writer, is sitting and promoting that book two months back. And all the, uh, uh, Dalit writers from the communist party who have got this new progressive, uh, you know, writers union, they're sitting and they're promoting this book.
I've heard yesterday that Neelam said they will not showcase that book in their exhibition last January, the book fair, and they fought with them. And they fought with them. I came to know only about that yesterday.
Sudipto: So the book is titled, the book is titled what? What is the title of the
Shalin: book? What is the truth?
And then there is a whole review of the book, me, and you know, I spoke to Subhajeet on the book. I spoke to a lot of people on the book. [00:29:00] And, uh, you know, we discussed about the book. And the book is justifying the murder. It says nothing like that happened or only less people happened. Or they brought it on themselves.
They were unprepared and they brought it on themselves. And they only blame Congress and Congress was a part of it because Congress promised this people land that time in the Sundarbans. Now we're only not going to talk about communists. We're going to talk about Congress also, right? And then you kill so many people, hundreds of people, more than 400 people, children, women in the night, these Polis wade through the waters and then they kill them.
So the book says those Polis are communists. So they cannot kill anyone. Communists cannot kill anyone, is it? Do you know Russia and China? Do you know Kerala?
Sudipto: But, but let's come to communism. Do you know how many
Shalin: of them are killed in Kerala? Let's talk about Kerala government. All these places I'm telling you, West Bengal, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, All these [00:30:00] has this progressive mask and you know, they go ahead with all those across India saying, look at us.
We are the poster boys of progressiveness. But these are, if you go and talk to the Dalits, the women, the tribals and the Adivasis in the States, then you will know. These people think Kolkata is West Bengal. One of the biggest states in India, they think Kolkata is West Bengal. They'll not even know what is Sundarban.
They're sitting here and they're saying this one, uh, this Aadhavan Dheechanya and everybody are saying, you know, this Marijapi is a myth. It is debunked by scientific Data. What the hell is scientific data? You have documentaries on Marijapi. You have seen victims talking about it. You have Deepak Halder's book.
You have a lot of, you know, people, Dalit scholars talking about Marijapi, not just Maridapi for the last 60 years in, in the West Bengal. Dalits have not been given the due, due [00:31:00] credit in the government.
Sudipto: Okay. So I, there is an example from Bengal. I'm sure there's stuff in Kerala as well. But what about the communist movement in Tamil Nadu?
Shalin: Communist movement in Tamil Nadu used to be good. Used to be good because even the skill and money, you know, they claim it as, you know, You know what happened when Thema, in his initial phases in the nineties, he wanted to go to this, uh, Kien money massacre site, which is, uh, you know, it has a member of, they have a, you know, uh, in memory of them, they have a stupa kind of a thing.
And when went there in the nineties to visit, he was very nineties with the golden period of, and he, when he was like in his full vigor and he went to kill money, and these communists chased him, I said, this a communist matter. You don't come here. And then we, everybody, then he started talking about Kilvin Mani.
And then he started saying, the people who died here are Dalits. And the people who committed crime on them are OBCs, Naidus and Naikars. And the people who saved them was, you know, uh, most of [00:32:00] them are part of Congress and DMK. And the person who was behind everything, Gopalakrishnan and Naidu, he was released.
He was released. And Justice Chandru wrote an article saying how the DMK government was very aloof and instrumental in him getting released without being getting, you know, um, jailed.
Sudipto: Periyar was very much around.
Shalin: I, I, you should read my latest, I think like 2022, I wrote an article on that. Like how Kheelvanmini is not a communist struggle.
It is a socialist struggle of the Dalit and Dalit woman. You know what happened in Kheelvanmini? You know, the, they were given one, uh, half. Uh, you know, a pot of, uh, Patty that was their salary. And these women asked for quarter, more quarter pot, more of this, and they were killed for it. So these women who are cooking at homes, they, they even treat kilvin many as a masculine or a communist moment.
What Kill men Many Moment was a Dali woman movement because 80% of laborers [00:33:00] land, agricultural land, uh, laborers are women and they are 80, uh, 70% of them are dalis. So this movement for the rise was not just for rise. It was for self respect in the 1968 and these people, these women fought for it, the women and men and everybody, and they burned them down on Christmas Eve along with the children and everybody.
You can see the bodies, you know, all burnt and charred. I think the next day when somebody went there, I think Krishnamal Jagannathan. Uh, she's also one of the Dalit, you know, um, activists, but she was Gandhian. And she went the next day, she could say, you know, I could smell the chad, you know, uh, smell of the bodies and DMK government could not even prosecute him properly.
And this guy who did it came out. And then years later, the person whose family got affected by it, he murdered him.
Sudipto: Okay, now tell me in this Keelvan Mani case, you know, you have also criticized the role of, uh, Periyar, E. V. Ramaswamy Nayakar. What, what exactly is your criticism? So
Shalin: I went back. [00:34:00] I was, I, I, see, I'm a staunch Periyar supporter, right?
I, I got married in Periyar Dhril, self respect wedding. I got married in Periyar Dhril. I did have, you know, I did have a very big Fascination for Periyar. And right now, I do respect him on his takes on scientific temperament, uh, federalism, uh, atheism, you know, a lot of things. I do, you know, give respect to that.
But when it comes to anti caste, uh, Periyar was more anti Brahmin than, you know, Dalit friendly. Then, you know, he did attend the last five years I've been seeing, he didn't attend a lot of cast group meetings of the OBCs and talking to them. He did or he didn't? You're saying he
Sudipto: did or he didn't?
Shalin: He did.
He did go and attend. He did. So when I went and, because all the proofs are there in their own magazine, there is a magazine called Vidya De Lai. Uh, translated as freedom and they own magazine run, which was run by Periyar, which is now run by Veeramani and that in that in, uh, the Periyar goes to the East Delta region after that, uh, you know, uh, carnage, which happened in Kilwanmani [00:35:00] and he said, Dalit should not engage in political things like that.
And he said, the communists are the ones who provoke them, uh, to do that, otherwise this would have not happened. And he did, he didn't condemn anybody. And the paper is there with me, a copy of that is there with me. And then when I published an article saying it is very disappointing that Periyar did not take to the support of the Dalits, instead he victim blamed them, he gaslighted them, and he didn't support them.
And I felt very bad about it. And then I wrote about it. I took the, uh, you know, proof from their own magazine and a part of his speech and I wrote about it. And all these communists, even the communists, They all came barking at me saying, you know, you can't talk about that. Why do you ask me? You know, I am always in battle because I write the truth.
I write the truth. I speak the truth for Dalits and they do not like it. See, what has happened is all the people who are vigorously engaged in Dalit politics are now part of this Dravidian vote bank politics ecosystem. And they do not like the communist writers, Dalit writers, or few Dalit leaders [00:36:00] who say we don't talk Dalit politics.
anymore. So they've been absorbed by these Davidian parties and they're not talking Dalit politics anymore. And when few people like me or Ranjith or anybody speak Dalit politics, we are battered. We are threatened right now. I'm sitting in your office and you were setting your editor was setting up this whole thing.
I get a text message from a DMK supporter saying, you will die in the hands of DMK. This is what I got. You will die in the hands of DMK. I can post it after this. And then it is because I questioned why there is no monument for an anti caste person. I questioned why did you, why these communists have went ahead and, you know, uh, erased, you know, a Dalit massacre.
And why these communists are not talking about Dalit rights or land rights anymore and they are only slaves to Udayanidhi. I'm saying, why are [00:37:00] you saying you're supposed to talk about D? Right? Because I do believe in communism. I do believe in Marx. I do like Lenin a lot, but I, I'm more Leninist than Marxist.
But I do, you know, kind of, you know, uh. Yeah, but I'm an Ambedkarite. So if you're going to ask Buddha or Marx, I'm going to say Buddha. Buddha had all the answers. It is there. You don't want to follow Buddha. You want to follow some, you know, follow Marx and, and it is like confuses me. May 1st is coming, yaar, Sudipto.
May 1st is coming. Who you should, who the communists in Tamil Nadu should celebrate? Tell me. Tell me who, who should they celebrate on May 1st? You
Sudipto: tell
Shalin: me. Ambedkar ya, they should celebrate Ambedkar. 8 years working, 8 hours working hour. Graduity, maternal leave, maternity benefits, land mine, the miners law, tripartite, the tripartite thing, no, the union thing.
Whatever Communist Party is doing, [00:38:00] we have a union, we have a union, that is possible only because in 19, I think 1931, Ambedkar brought the tripartite agreement, that law, without which you can't have a union, without which you can't have a union. If not for Ambedkar, your unions will not exist. So, if I sit and take, there are so many, you know, laws, labor laws, more than hundred labor laws Ambedkar has brought.
And I'm sitting and I'm like, I'm confused, I'm like, what? This was brought by Ambedkar. This was brought by Ambedkar. Yes, he, he brought, he got you graduity. He got you leave. He got you AITAS and May 1st leave, everything. And somebody is taking credit for it. You're celebrating Marx. You're celebrating Marx on May 1st, in India, you should be celebrating Ambedkar.
You're not doing it. And then there are Tamil leaders, a leader from the fishing community called Singaravelar, a Bhagujan leader. He was, he, he, he was a communist, but he, he was the one who, you know, struggled for these people here. They're not even [00:39:00] celebrating him. They are straight, they want to go to Germany, Russia, China, West Bengal.
Nobody wants to talk about Ambedkar at all. And I'm asking them, oh, you're not talking about Ambedkar. He's a saviour. He's, Ambedkar Babasaheb is a saviour of the Indian labourers.
Sudipto: There's something you said back there, which I want to go back to. You, I suppose, are one of the few people I know who has managed to, uh, criticize Periyar, not necessarily Periyaris alone, because the criticism of Periyaris has happened over time and, you know, their contradictions have become apparent over time, you know, with these atrocities, with, um, several instances have piled up over the years.
For us to say that, okay, there is a contradiction there, but, um, you are somebody who's, who's, who's, who's, uh, putting the blame in the, you know, right at the origin, right? You're, you're saying that there was something [00:40:00] wrong at the very start with the person who, who started Periyarist politics, which is Periyar himself, uh, Do you, do you think that, uh, that is a sum total of Periyar or do you think that's just an aberration?
What happened in Kirwan Mani, right? You are saying that he took the side of, uh, not took the side, but he kind of, uh, you know, victim blamed you said. Uh, is there anything else you've noticed in Periyar's career that kind of, uh, Yeah,
Shalin: something which I noticed, like, you know, they always talk about his marriage to Mani Amma, you know, and, uh, they talk about the age.
But, uh, somebody came and asked me, like, why did he marry a person from his. Uh, you know, OBC cast itself, a feudal cast itself, he could have married a Dalit woman if he really wanted to, you know, get, you know, then I said, it's love or if it's commitment, you can't choose cast in that, right? You can't choose a person based on that.
So it's highly, you know, it's wrong. And even the Sanghi is talking about Periyar marrying his daughter. She was not his daughter. She was someone very strange to him, [00:41:00] but he got married to her. My question arised when, uh, you know, um, This person called Sampath Sampath, uh, he was the one who, uh, per adopted, uh, because per had a huge wealth with him, a very huge wealth.
And there is this Perham, uh, uh, the foundation is in thousands of crows and, um, there's a lot of money which is involved. And he adopted a, a, a person from his own ker, cast sampath than anybody else, if per would. wanted to do, you know, something very anti caste. You could have, you know, uh, uh, adopted a Dalit, which didn't happen.
And I was like, Oh, Periyar was so, he was not a normal man, right? So you're saying Periyar is an intellectual. Uh, Periyar is someone who's, you know, talking about, uh, you know, a lot of reformation and everything. He's talking about cutting off the uteruses. Then why he did not cut off his caste ties. He could have, you know, adopted a [00:42:00] Dalit guy or a girl, which he didn't do.
So the amount, the wealth goes to the same caste. And then. Veeramani comes into picture and Veeramani also is an OBC and he's not a Dalit and the whole, uh, you know, we've seen the OBC violence in Tamil Nadu, a lot of activities doesn't happen here. Anticast activity doesn't happen here at all because what Veeramani does is political lobby.
He's a political lobbyist. He sits here. He got, he has a lot of network in us and Europe and everything. And he talks social justice on the stage, but he does not get down and he doesn't do anything, you know, and there is like solar eclipse and moon eclipse. No. Uh, There's a lot of Hindus here. They don't eat at that time.
So the only revolution they do right now is on solar eclipse and, uh, lunar eclipse. They eat dosa from pure vegetarian hotel. They don't even eat non veg. They eat pure vegetarian. That is the only [00:43:00] revolution Dravidar Kalagam right now is doing. Nothing else with so much of money and wealth and
Sudipto: resources.
Shalin, Shalin, can I ask you, can I, can I ask you a question? Do you think your ambedkarism gets you, gets you into trouble or your sarcasm?
Shalin: My sarcasm gets me into trouble a lot of time because yeah, because like what dude, it's 2024. If you have to do, you know, rebellion, Shalin can, you know, they call me a keyboard warrior, but I'm telling you something, I've done very big stuff.
I do very big stuff sitting in my home. And you know, the whole internet is buzzing for three days. With Marijapi and you know, talks on communism, these people are fighting and he, and you know, what happened is you asked me, what is the fight? No, because Adhavan Deechania called me, you know, uh, fringe element, you're, you know, you people are talking fringe element, you're, you're not part of any, you know, association or party, you're fringe element, you're a sellout.
So Ambedkar was a separate man. He was an independent man. MC Raja was an independent man. Reddy Malai [00:44:00] Srinivasan was an independent man, but those people, Ayodhya's Pandit was an independent man. He never believed in either of your associations or any of your parties, right? They stood alone.
Sudipto: Speaking of Ayodhya's, I remember you once put up a statement saying that the Dravidian movement has appropriated Ayodhya theory
Shalin: that
Sudipto: he's the first person who talked about Ravida who talked about father
Shalin: of rationalism in Tamil Nadu because in the mid 19th century, Ayodhya was.
He belongs to Chennai, a Dalit from Chennai, Dalit. Uh, you know, he belongs to our, uh, uh, Pariyar community and his family, they were the ones who had the, uh, palm leaf, uh, scripts of Tirukural. They were the ones who went and gave it to Ellis, Governor Ellis at that time. And that Tirukural, that Ellis, uh, what he did was he printed it and he put it into vernacular usage because of [00:45:00] Ayodhya ascent.
Have you heard, have heard of this? Have, have you, did you know that the war is, that belongs to UR community? I asked that on the stage. I said that the war belongs to the UR community when Tar Vi put a a on and took th they, they tried to appropriate Thur and took him to gang. So I asked, why are you taking him there?
When they did that, Tamil Nadu government, none of them said, oh, he's not a Brahmin. But when we with proof tell you that he, Valluvar is, you know, Thiruvalluvar is a Dalit, you couldn't take it? That's why they got angry that day. I'm talking all these things. They, they couldn't take it.
Sudipto: Why did they get angry?
Uh, because they saw it as something which was demeaning. Well, how, why exactly did they get angry? They say,
Shalin: how can you claim Buddha as whatever? How can you claim, uh, the I, uh, uh, they don't want to hear the word D. So we, if anybody say, this particular person who's achieved this is a D, they can't take it.[00:46:00]
Even if you say they're Braman, they'll believe it.
Okay, she belongs to the SI Vellalar community. But M. S. Subbulakshmi married a Brahmin, Kalki Sadashivam. And then, he Brahmanized her totally. She wore Madisaran and all. So everybody, the civil society started believing that she's a Brahmin. Nobody fought about it, nobody wrote about it, nobody did anything about it.
Okay? But, when suddenly you come and say that, you know, she, this person is not a Brahmin and she, this is a Bahujan person, then everybody opposes it. Like, if you say Thiruvalluvar is a Dalit, with proof, they can't take it. So if you're going to Brahmanize a Bahujan, it's okay. If you're going to Brahmanize a Dalit, okay.
But you Dalitize a Dalit, you can't take it. Because Dalits are not intellectuals. Dalits cannot be intelligent. Dalits are hardworking cow like humans in Tamil Nadu. They'll be foot soldiers, they'll be building parties, they'll [00:47:00] be carders of party. We are always equalized or synonymized with hard work. We are not synonymized with brains.
So when there is a set of people who talk about intellectuality of Dalits, when people talk about the, you know, we, the school of thought of Ayodhya, how, you know, Ambedkar came here, Babasaheb learned, you know, uh, from the South Asian Buddhist Association formed by Ayodhya. You know how he learned that and how he became converted after that when he's been he's talked about that They can't take it.
You know, they talk about Periyar before that even before Periyar become, you know, Dravida Kalaham's head Rettai Malai Srinivasan brought the law that anybody in Pedras presidency can go into any temple, drink water from any well, use any public water resources. It is a law 1927 law in the Madras Legislative Council.
Anybody has talked about it? [00:48:00] Spoken about it? No, no. But you're saying Periyar only did everything. Today no, I put something and they said if not for Periyar your life would have been haywire. I said my grandfather. Completed his English education in 1930s. In 1940, he was a teacher, and my grandmother was a teacher in the 19, you know, 38 itself.
Now you tell me how did I benefit and my depressed class reservation was there before 1926. So the obesity reservation came later. Who got that? You got OBC reservation, Mandal Commission was possible because of who? Sudipto, one more ghost you tell me. Who's responsible?
Sudipto: I'm asking questions, you don't get to ask questions over here.
Tell me, you tell me.
Shalin: So, because of Ambedkar. Because of Ambedkar, OBC reservation was possible. So you don't fool Dalits here. Let me
Sudipto: ask you, so there is an [00:49:00] allegation, not an allegation, a criticism, let's say, that Shalin speaks rhetorically, right? That she doesn't have data. Right. That she doesn't have facts and figures and things like that.
So, you know, to take you back to one such example, or not even an example, one such case where you were accused of being rhetorical and not factual was when this, um, uh, debate broke out between, uh, Modi and BJP and your, uh, DMK over, uh, freebies versus My DMK.
Shalin: My DMK. I support DMK. I've been a
Sudipto: supporter of DMK.
I've been a
Shalin: supporter of DMK. My party has, you know, my, my, my forefathers have actually went ahead and campaigned for DMK. Until the last, uh, you know, Satya Sabha election, the legislative election of the state, I voted for DMK only. So my heart is with DMK only? Yes. You can say your DMK. Yes, please. Your dmk.
'cause we build the party. So when we build the party, let's build the party. Yeah.
Sudipto: Okay. So there was a fight between your DMK, an argument between your DMK and the BJP where the BJP was [00:50:00] talking about freebies. And all this stuff started. And at that time, I remember, uh, PTR, right? Uh, who was the finance minister back then?
Um, uh, said that, uh, you know, he, he came up with an entire counter argument to that thing saying that these are, these are welfare measures and these are not freebies, right? And you came and said something very interesting. You said that, you know, for all their welfare measures, the money comes from SCST sub plan.
So they are giving out, you know, mixer, grinder, TV, building flyovers, doing whatever, but that entire Dravidian economic model, because PTR keeps talking about the Dravidian economic model, right? So your counter was that money comes from Dalit funds or SCST sub plan funds, which are misdirected or redirected towards these general schemes, but diverted.
Now you couldn't back that up with numbers or statistics or things like that. So,
Shalin: no, yeah, I couldn't back, uh, back that up with numbers, but people, we knew that color [00:51:00] TV, uh, the, um, the mixing, the mixer grinder and, uh, you know, the Asamato Burams were built with Dalit money. Uh, I think I spoke to a lot of journalists on that and they couldn't get the data.
Like even, I think you also couldn't get the data. I think it, it, the data has been hidden in such a way that, you know, you can't go ahead, but they can't prove else. Tomorrow, if I'm going to say that, uh, today, today I'm making an allegation that Color TV, uh, the, you know, the mixer grinder and whatever the government gave us freebies, a part of the money came from SAST plan, the fund.
They cannot file a case on me. If they have guts, they can go ahead and file a case on me. I can go that and prove them wrong. They can file a case of me if they have data. Okay. The onus is on that. Another one. I'll tell you what happened. Then after speaking about the sub plan, I went and look into Samathopuram.
They say [00:52:00] Kalanjith built Samathopuram. So we took that data. That data is there. Samathopuram houses, it's a failed model. Okay, just quickly, quickly
Sudipto: tell people who are not from Tamil Nadu what's Samathopuram and then you can Uh,
Shalin: Samathopuram is a locality, like 100 200 localities, townships, which Kalanya came up with, where all castes will live together.
Because in Tamil Nadu, people don't live together, okay? Uh, the dominant caste lives in the center of the village, then the least dominant caste lives outside, and Dalits live outside of the village near the crematorium. That's how Tamil Nadu exists. Tamil Nadu is not California or Los Angeles or whatever it is.
Tamil Nadu exists like this only. This is how caste operates in Tamil Nadu. And I mean, I spoke about this and for this also they abused me. Like, you know, I got death threats for talking about this.
Sudipto: What's your point about Samathpuram? What were you trying to say?
Shalin: I spoke about, uh, Samathopuram is where Kalanji said, Oh, people are living separately.
We'll all put to put them [00:53:00] together like 200 model townships they built, but everybody will be there according to their percentage of, uh, you know, the thing. So there'll be like, you know, 20, 25 Dalit houses, and then there'll be, uh, you know, 3 percent of Brahmins and OBCs. The irony is that, that there's a lot of, uh, existing Samathopuram itself, a lot of caste violence cases there already.
People killing, that itself we have a case study. That is different. The money which went, where only 25 percent Dalits were using it, the whole money which went was from Dalit SESG fund. So, peace, so peace and equality, you know, Can we achieve only through our money?
Sudipto: No, no, you are saying that, uh, the entire money for the entire, you know, township would go from sub plan money.
Shalin: But
Sudipto: only 25 percent of the residents would be Dalits, you're saying.
Shalin: Yes, yes, they can prove me wrong if I'm wrong. And then now [00:54:00] with proof, with data, what happened was, uh, last year, I think last year, uh, we put an RTI, we, we put an RTI, Karthik, my friend, he went and he filed an RTI on the sub plan. So we came to know around 11, 000 crore rupees of SESD fund was sent back without being utilized.
Sudipto: No, no, sent back funds we always have. There are two things in this sub plan thing. Every year we see, uh, statistics coming out from every state almost, that the largest chunk of money that was allocated under sub plan for ACST development has been returned. It has The question really is, where was it spent?
And that is the more interesting thing because that is what is hidden. We have not managed to find data anywhere in the South.
Shalin: Two things. One is, they spent on certain parts. Another thing is, they sent away certain parts because they did not want to irate the OBCs also. They don't want to use Dalit money because OBCs will get offended.
They don't want to bring a honor killing prevention bill [00:55:00] because OBC will get pissed off. They don't want to prevent manual scavenging because OBCs will get pissed off. They don't want Dalits to enter temples because OBCs will get, you know, pissed off. So they didn't use a lot of the money and they sent, but certain thousand crores went into diversification.
Because if you put the full money, you know, it'll be easily deducted. So only small part cannot be detected. You know what we did? We filed this RTI, we got the data, we questioned them. So what they did was, the thousand rupees thing is coming. The thousand rupees, uh, you know, this whole India is copying thousand rupees per month for women.
See, self respect movement has been shrunk to thousand rupees. Self respect is thousand rupees for me. That's what a self respect movement. So, they all went around asking for votes, saying, we gave you thousand rupees. Oh, this, uh, minister, Durai Murugan's son went around and asked women, Oh, you're looking sexist.
[00:56:00] You're looking all lovely. You look fair and lovely. You bought fair and lovely with the money we gave us. You went to beauty parlor with the money we gave us. You're all shining. Everybody, everybody went and said, thousand rupees, thousand rupees, thousand rupees. But what happened was, again we filed an RTI to find out the thousand rupees, because we had a doubt what was happening.
We filed an RTI, and we found out, thousand five hundred crores. 1450 crores from the Dalit SESD fund has been set for this, uh, Mangalir Urimai Togai. And I was like, we all started asking, like, how could you do that? And Uday Chandran said, no, no, we are not doing anything unlawful. I said, why? Because he said, uh, a part of that whole people will be Dalits.
No. The part of the beneficiaries will be Dalit. No, actually SESD fund, according to the, you know, constitutional values and according to the law of SESD fund, you cannot divert it for any generic schemes. You can only use it for any scheme where 100 percent beneficiaries [00:57:00] are Dalits. So the case is going on.
The Schedule Caste, uh, you know, the Republic Party of India in Tamil Nadu have filed a case. A lot of people have filed a case. It's going on. There'll be a verdict. But Uday Chandran came up with something and said, Ah, a lot of Dalit women are using the funds, so we use the funds. 1450 crores! And then you said you gave them money?
We gave them money. It's Dalit's money, no? And now, since we're putting all this RTI, they came up with a legislation. They came up with a legislation where all Dalit NGOs went around and saying, Oh wow, we got answered. One person called and said, Shalin, we spoke about it last year, no? See, now they said they'll, they'll budgetize this, uh, SCST sub plan.
They've come up with the legislation. So we went and we're searching like, oh, okay, really? Maybe they would have done something good. What they've done is, they've changed the legislation in such a way that The money can be diversified legally hereafter. The money can be diverted legally. So all the money now will not be returned, [00:58:00] but be diverted into all the things.
All the things for, you know, uh, talents travel or anything. Yeah, anything. It can be used for anything.
Sudipto: So the reason why, uh, legal protection was demanded in the first place has been defeated by a law that was finally brought in to defeat that very demand.
Shalin: Oh, you, you also made a, I think News Minute came up with a report, no?
With all the factual data of that order, government order. So it is like, you know, this shocks me because instead of doing good to Dalits, you're oppressing me. You're thinking we are fools. You're thinking we are, we are thinking we are fools and we are naive. And we can just give him to your all, you know, Davidian progressive, uh, rhetoric.
Sudipto: All right. Now my last question, uh, you know, I want to talk about this other term that you have used, which is the NGO ization of the Dalit movement, NGO ization of the Dalit movement. And you, and you have said in the past that there's a lot of focus on atrocities. [00:59:00] Why do you, why do you have a problem with focus on atrocities?
What do you, where do you think Dalit NGOs are going wrong? What exactly is, uh, your critique of that space? The reason I ask this is because see, uh, one of the things is that, you know, in the rest of the country, you know, uh, there's a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of people know about the kind of atrocities against Dalits that are happening.
Uh, in Tamil Nadu and the, the, the credit for that should go, I suppose, to the, uh, uh, NGOs who are working in that space, you know, because they have managed to highlight the plight of, uh, Dalits Give some
Shalin: credit to me, Aar. I'm risking my life to bring out this
Sudipto: information
Shalin: on Twitter, you know, what job I'm doing, you know, and people say she does nothing.
So there's a lot of times for the last three years, I brought out a lot of, you know, I worked with those NGOs and I brought out a lot of information on Why
Sudipto: are you critical of that NGO activity? What exactly is the political problem with that? Why do you think there's, that's, that's something which, which cannot, it's not sustainable.
Why?
Shalin: Yeah. [01:00:00] Um, I've worked with these NGOs. I still work with few and, uh, I've done a lot of, you know, uh, media lobby for them. I've, I've, I've digital activism for them, brought out news. Kathir himself said that, you know, last year, because of me, 25, uh, cases in Tamil Nadu, uh, in the last one year have become a national and international news.
Everybody will know. Uh, from Vengevayal, we were even threatened. You know, writing about Venge? No, uh, because last one, uh, for last two weeks, they didn't write about it. Kaher went and did all those, uh, fact finding report. He came up and I started writing about it on Twitter and it, it, it got viral. And, um, in one of the Tamal magazines, uh, they, you know, uh, code named me and Kaher and they said they will arrest.
The government went ahead and said that and that happened. And, uh, they said, like, you know, they're doing digital activism, which is kind of spreading fake news and all. And then a lot of things happened. Then because the incident of social boycott and all, we brought it and there's a lot of things which happened.
So [01:01:00] I'm very glad these. I will not even say NGOs. I will say these human rights organizations, which exists in Tamil Nadu, uh, which has been bringing out Dalit issues. Otherwise we will not about, we'll not know about the Hanna killings in Tamil Nadu. I would say Tamil Nadu is the Hanna killing capital of India.
Manual scavenging death capital of India. And untouchability, I don't know whether it's in capital or not, but high levels of untouchability. They are talking about Vikram 100 Kerala, he's standing with the comrade Vijay, Vijayan, and here People are not able to enter temples, small temples also. Even today, yesterday I spoke to a group of people in Tenkasi.
I've reported about it, I've written about it. People are still not able to get into temples. So there's a lot of temple entry problems. Children are made to wash toilets in schools. There are a lot of institutional murders which is happening. Uh, and there's a lot of untouchability. Villages [01:02:00] existing and people living as outcasts outside.
And the caste system in Tamil Nadu is
Sudipto: We know all these things because of the NGOs, right? So what's the problem in?
Shalin: Yeah, but what happens is we come to know about it. A sensationalization is created. A sensationalization is created. A number is created. A data is created. But what about conviction rates?
Why there is a drop in conviction? Two things are there. Conviction rates in Dalit atrocity cases is 5 percent in India. So what happens after these NGOs engage with them, engage with the victims? What happens after the fact finding reports? Because we do see certain cases going to, you know, uh, the court, the judicial thing, special courts, but after that, what happens?
Nothing happens. For example, this case of, uh,
Sudipto: Is that the mistake of the NGOs?
Shalin: The domestic violence case, not the domestic work. Rekha's case. It all sensationalized, everybody came, spoke [01:03:00] about it. Now what is the status? So if I go back and track those cases, the cases are lurking, you know, in the space.
There's nothing, there's no closure to this cases at all.
Sudipto: So you think that's a mistake of the NGOs? Because the entire, I mean, in the case of atrocities, the entire system, I'll tell you, yeah, between you and others watching, by the way,
Shalin: I will see the system is a desired problem. Caste is there in the special courts.
The PP, the government PP always comes up with a weak prosecution, weak prosecution and all those stuff. But apart from that, I initially analyzed what I analyzed Next is the human rights organization at one point become NGOs and they become this process oriented where they just stop, you know, stop with training and bringing that sensational news outside.
But pursuit of justice does not happen with most of the cases except for two or three cases, which is very sensationalized for the year. And then what happens [01:04:00] is a lot of Dalit political parties, a lot of Dalit political parties, these, these, see these NGOs. Can take the help of political parties to bring, to get awareness, you know, in their consultations and all.
But certain poli NGOs are aligned with these political parties. And when these political parties are aligned to Dian Political Electoral Bank, they'll not make these NGOs work in the goodwill until the end. You get my point? Because suddenly there is a case. And a human rights organization is taking care of the case, SCSC case, and then a political party comes in and the case gets closed.
Or the case doesn't get closed, it just stays there. And then the, you know, the victims come back to us asking for help and compensation and all those things. So, what does those political parties mandate the human rights [01:05:00] organizations to do? And then I work with a lot of grassroot level organizations, human rights organizations.
Activists, separate activists, uh, like, uh, you know, um, uh, Arundhatiya community, Pallar community, Pariyar community, they always complain that these political parties are doing Katta panchayat, Kaap panchayat in most of the Dalit cases. You ask me, right? Why as a Dalit, I've been fired by political parties or my own brothers in the state?
Because it is my job to criticize my brothers, question them, right? So every time there is one party or two party who go ahead, even now in Alangulam, in Tenkasi, a barbershop incident has happened where Dalits are not allowed to cut the hair. An MBC person is involved. [01:06:00] And I'm hearing of news of political parties getting involved and charges was not booked.
So what are these political parties aligning with this human rights organization trying to do with these cases? It's because of their electoral alliance is my question here. You can go ahead. You can speak to any witness because I spoke to this panchayat because we are talking, we, Kaldur and all, we're working with this panchayat leaders.
women panchayat leaders, Dalit leaders, who were horribly, you know, cruelly treated in the name of caste. And this one person from Vedanayaki, she was from Kadalur and she came up with like, you know, she was literally crying. And I said, I said, this one particular Dalit party is there in Kadalur. And I said, why don't you take those help?
They take their help. I'll give their number. And she said, madam, I wish they don't come inside in the first place because they'll create me more problems. Because I know what they are capable of. [01:07:00] They never support us, but they will only support the dominant caste. And this today, at the cost of my life, at the cost of my career, at the cost of all, you know, abuse and the horrors I'm going to face.
I'm telling you the truth today because I want some kind of, you know, pull stop to this. I just want an stop. Okay. Stop it. It's enough. Don't do this. Don't do this. Carpenter with your own dance. Not with your own bloods. Horrible. You can't do that. Don't don't don't. The whole slave thing. No Django unseen.
Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. I mean, it, it's the greatest betrayal that you can do to the work of, um, Baba Sahi Aida or any person. Take my grandfather. No, he was a land rights activist. He spent his whole life living in a slum, protecting the slum and everything, and tomorrow he's dead and the slum will be gone because in the main, it's in the main road and it, they, they [01:08:00] cut the water supply, sewage connection.
Everything has been cut, but I'm sitting and I'm, you know, I'm fighting for it. And tomorrow the Dravidian government will, you know, take people out of that place. And you think these parties will come and support us? They never support us. They want us to work for them. They want us to praise them. They want us to, they want to patronize us, but they don't want to save us.
If they have so much of power, they just went ahead and saved these slums from being evacuated. You know, I will not be able to see my own relatives. I feel guilty that I will not be able to see my own set of relatives. Oops. After a couple of years, I lost a lot of relatives who migrated 40 50 km away. A lot of my relatives are in jail, under trials, on false cases.
Because they are Dalits, they are Pariyars. Because they speak like me, but they don't speak English. I speak English, I'm on internet. I get [01:09:00] online abuses, but they are booked under false cases. They, they take cases, you know, que they take cases. They, they do a lot of stuff. I, I don't, I don't have a family tree.
I don't have a family tree. No. I, I don, I not have my land.
I have a 200 square feet home.
Sudipto: Okay. Shalon. Okay. I will, I'll, I'll let you be. I think, I think we'll, yeah. We'll call it here. Yeah.
Shalin: Thanks.
Sudipto: Thanks she for sharing that. Sorry, sorry, Jamie. Yeah. I'm sorry. You know, uh, this discussion brought out the, brought out your tears.
Shalin: It's okay. It's okay. It's about loss. So yeah, no problem.
Yeah. I mean, I am strong, but losing your roots is not the same. Exactly why I should be called schedule cast. I don't want to lose my roots. I am, I am a schedule cast person. It's not about reservation. [01:10:00] It's about the identity. I can't lose my identity. I can't be erased from the map because it's easy to erase a Dalit from this map.
Sorry. See, I've become a cry baby.
Sudipto: I, I, I, yeah, I, I guess you don't want your tormentors to see your tears. It's
Shalin: okay, let them see your tears. Even Ambedkar cried. Even Babasaheb cried. Vulnerability makes us stronger. This empathy. When people ask me, you know, how you fight? Because somebody told me Ambedkar cried.
Buddha cried. Buddha cried. Ambedkar cried. So we cry so that we wash ourselves of this sorrow. This tears washes off that fear. Tears wash off everything and we fight, we fight after this. We become very strong to fight this because I've told you a lot of truth and I am scared what will happen to me after this.
But I will speak the truth. Thanks. All
Sudipto: right. [01:11:00] Thanks. Thank you, Shalin. Uh, so that was Shalin Maria Lawrence and her ism. Some of you obviously were provoked by what she said. Some of you, I'm sure, passionately agree with what she said. But that was Shalin Maria Lawrence and her ism. I'm sure listening to her gave you a sense of where you stand and what's your ism.
That's all from here. I'm Sudipto Mandal. Thank you.
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