The leader of the Welsh Conservatives has insisted he isn't 'at odds' with Rishi Sunak after discussing the controversial HS2 funding issue with the Prime Minister. Andrew RT Davies spoke to Mr Sunak at the Welsh Conservative Party conference in Newport over the weekend and their conversation included a chat about the £5bn Wales won't be receiving due to HS2 being classed as an 'England and Wales' project.
In an interview with WalesOnline, the Welsh party leader spoke about his relationship with the PM, why he focuses so much on 'culture war' issues, and his vocal opposition to the Welsh Government's policy pilot of giving £1,600 a month to young people leaving care, including some asylum seekers.
Speaking on the second and final day of the conference in Newport's ICC, Mr Davies defended his bold claim that the UK's economy is better off thanks to Brexit and directly addressed the damning opinion polls showing how far behind Labour the Welsh Tories are.
He revisited some of his reliable talking points in small boats and Labour's NHS record as we pushed him on the big issues. The conversation came on a day when the Conservative Party's English deputy chairman joked that he wouldn't move to Wales due to the Labour government in Cardiff Bay and Tory MPs and MSs joined forces to criticise the Welsh Government's transport policy.
WalesOnline: Are there any standouts from the policy that has been discussed at the party conference?
Andrew RT Davies: Well, obviously highlighting where Labour have been failing over the last two years since the Senedd elections, making the point that they need to get back to the day job and highlighting how waiting times regrettably here in Wales are as high as any other part of the United Kingdom. There are nearly 700,000 people on a waiting list, and nearly 40,000 people are waiting two years or more.
That's a priority for the Welsh people, they want to see that change. We sadly had Betsi go into special measures for the second time. And so the whole agenda that we've been talking about is making sure that we pull Labour back to focus on the day job, rather than talking about more politicians and fringe issues that detract from getting the day job done.
It's interesting you talk about doing the day job. If it was your day job, if you were in power tomorrow, what would be the first policies you'd put through to try and affect the NHS?
For the NHS, we've been passionate about rolling out diagnostic hubs and surgical hubs which the Welsh Government were very slow to bring forward. I remember when I was health spokesperson, they ridiculed the idea.
The Royal College of Surgeons endorsed surgical hubs... to bring waiting time down. They were deployed in other parts of the United Kingdom, and they made a massive impact. smashing waiting times Regrettably, in Wales, after the prevarication, we're playing catch up. And that's why our waiting times are so slow. We wouldn't have seen that under Welsh Conservative government.
Rishi Sunak was here yesterday - did you get a chance to sit down and have a chat with him?
I spent a lot of time with the prime minister. He was with us all afternoon. Yesterday, he was doing various things around the conference arena... we had a good clear discussion with him, and in particular, show him what we could do to help him win the General Election next year.
Did you talk policy at all?
We highlighted exactly what we want to do to make sure we're going to return a record number of MPs come the General Election next year. The Chancellor and himself are highlighting the five pledges that he's brought forward at the start of the year; having the deficit, cutting inflation, making sure that we get the economy growing, cutting waiting times, which in Wales is the responsibility of the Welsh Labour government, and stopping the small boats.
Those are five pledges that he said he wouldn't have endorsed if he couldn't deliver them, and he's going to deliver them.
Did you talk about HS2?
Well, we always have that discussion. And it's a debate and discussion we will continue to have. Let's not forget the Welsh Labour government haven't even succeeded in convincing their colleagues in opposition and Westminster to endorse the policy of consequentials. Now, I want to see consequentials come to Wales and we'll continue to keep fighting that corner.
Do you feel like you're directly at odds with Rishi Sunak over that?
No. I mean, politics is all about debate and discussion. And sometimes there are issues that you have to go a little bit further within your own party management to have a robust discussion and debate over.
We'll continue to have those discussions and debates. But let's not forget, it's a bit rich for Liz Saville Roberts to stand in the House of Commons saying Wales needs consequentials when if Plaid had their dream of an independent Wales, there'd be no consequentials coming from the wider UK economy to Wales.
So what we've got to be doing is making sure that within the union of the United Kingdom, Wales prospers and thrives. And we know that the Conservatives in government have been delivering on that. Two freeports, for example, recently announced - one in north Wales, one in south Wales, which will have a transformational effect on the economies within those areas.
Liz Saville Roberts is someone whose entire political existence is in opposition to the UK Government. You're someone who's got the ear of government. Do you feel you're any closer to convincing Rishi Sunak on those consequentials?
Well, we have those discussions on consequentials but a whole range of other issues.
The speeches yesterday were all in line in tune with obviously what the government's priority in Westminster is and what our priority is, in Cardiff Bay, about focusing on delivery for people wherever they live in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom, so that people can have confidence that instead of looking inwards as Conservatives, we're looking outwards, to sort people's lives out, make sure they've got good jobs with record rates of employment at the moment, make sure the housing crisis is solved, make sure the small boats are stopped coming across the Channel because that's a big issue for a lot of people, we've seen record numbers coming across.
Getting those waiting times down. And we've been pushing the Welsh Government time and time again for a Covid enquiry, something they've refused to have. Ultimately, everyone I speak to outside of the government bubble believes is the sensible thing to happen. Instead, what we've got is a Constitutional Commission looking at more politicians and more powers for the Bay.
You said yesterday to "ignore the naysayers" because "the UK economy is growing, not in spite of Brexit but because of it." Where's the evidence for that?
The last two years, for example, the UK had the fastest growing economy in the G7. The announcement about the two freeports, that wouldn't be allowed if we were in the EU because of the EU rules and regulations.
So those two freeports that have gone into Anglesey, Milford Haven and Port Talbot, ultimately will create a dynamic alternative to the old tried and tested ways of creating quality jobs, inward investment and opportunities for parts of the country that desperately in need of it.
The Chancellor was here yesterday, and he highlighted how Google, for example, are locating their rtificial intelligence research centre here in the UK. PricewaterhouseCoopers have just done their annual survey, 4,500 senior CEOs from across the globe rated the UK the third most attractive place in the world in the world for investment decisions.
So there are positives there. But we don't underestimate the challenges as well. And that's why in government, you have to have an eye on both challenges and opportunities.
There is that side of it with investment. On the other side, the chairman of the OBR said the economy is 4% smaller because of Brexit. Do you not accept that analysis?
Well, we've just gone through two major shocks - the COVID crisis and the Ukrainian crisis, two shocks which most probably would hit an economy maybe once every 50 years. What we've got to do is make sure, as I said, with freeports as an example, I've offered that and other examples to you, that we take these opportunities and grow the economy.
I'm confident we can grow the economy outside the European Union, whilst maintaining good relationships with our neighbours to make sure that we all prosper and we all benefit from an expanding world economy.
Do you think the average person in Wales or the UK feels like the economy is in a good state?
Well, let's look at the picture of unemployment, for example, where it's under 4% across the UK. Those are numbers that we've never seen for a generation or so. But what we've got to do is get productivity levels up, and if we increase productivity, we can increase take home pay, and if we get take home pay going up, people will start to feel more better off because inflation is too high at the moment. We all accept that.
And that's why one of the key pledges the Prime Minister has set is to have inflation by the back end of this year, where people will start to feel that they are better off. But I accept that it's a challenging position at the moment. But that's across the globe. Food inflation in Germany is far higher, for example, than it is in the UK.
Do you think the legacy of Liz Truss is at all to blame for that level of inflation?
Well, political decisions obviously have an impact on all sorts of events globally, nationally, and regionally.
And what we're doing now is making sure that we're delivering going forward in the run up to the next election with the current chancellor, with the Prime Minister.
But do you feel like it's a mess that wouldn't have to be cleared up if we'd have ended up with Rishi Sunak in the first place, rather than Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng? (Mr Davies said in March that he didn't regret backing Liz Truss as leader)
Well, ultimately, we are where we are today. And we've got to look forward, not backwards.
And I believe that we have a solid platform to build on by the decisions of the current chancellor and the Prime Minister, we can succeed in making sure if people feel better off, and if people do feel better off in the next election, it will be good for us as Conservatives.
Moving now to Welsh Government policy. The £1,600 monthly payment for two years set to be given to 18-year-olds leaving care. Is that something that you would support in principle?
I think there's more we can be doing for those leaving the care system. I think it's important we intervene as early as possible, because we know the life chances are not as good for those in the care system as those outside of the care system. So we need to get the education system firing all cylinders, we need to get careers advice in place, and we need to get the housing crisis sorted out so there are housing opportunities for people to get their foot on the property ladder.
That is irrespective of whether you're in the care system or the general population at large, so I think there's more that can be done and I don't think necessarily a specific scheme that the Welsh Government have put in place is necessarily going to solve the deep rooted problems in the Welsh care system.
And your opposition specifically to the fact the payment would go to people who've arrived in Wales as asylum seekers?
That's that's a point that obviously the Welsh Government have sought to try and do, which is three ministers writing to UK Government ministers wanting to enlarge the scheme so that they can pay £1,600 to those coming who haven't got settled status, i.e. illegal migrants who have put themselves in the hands of people smugglers, who we know furnish the market to bring people into the country by illegal means.
The £1,600 payment would be a pull factor, it will bring people into the country illegally. Immigration is a good thing, immigration actually helps the economy grow, it actually helps us integrate our cultures and communities better, it does. I'm someone who believes that passionately and I've always believed that politically, but what I don't believe and support is illegal immigration supporting the criminal gangs.
We don't have the exact numbers for how many asylum seekers will receive this payment. What we do know is that at least for this initial version of the scheme, the people eligible have left the care system from July 2022 to July 2023.
So a lot of the asylum seekers receiving it in this initial stage will have been in the UK already. These aren't people who are going to come to the UK because of this policy.
Do you think it's fair to tell one person leaving care they won't get the payment, and another that they will?
I believe what's fair is that where people have citizenship of this country they are supported, and all the opportunities the state can give them are put to their disposal. What I don't believe is a good thing is to put pull factors in place that will be exploited by criminal gangs, and putting £1,600 a month on the table to say that people potentially could be in receipt of that £1,600 is a pull factor, and will be exploited by the criminal gangs who will market it as an opportunity to bring more illegal migrants in.
That's my position. That's many other people's position as well. There's a political debate about it. I challenge the First Minister at FMQs, people can follow that debate and reach their own conclusions.
What seems to be a key part of your comms strategy is the 'culture war' issues including trans issues. You refer to them as 'minority fringe issues'. Is that Is that not a difficult thing, saying that certain minority issues shouldn't be talked about as much as they are? Is it not the job of a democratic government to represent those?
No, we should always look after vulnerable people, we should, but when the First Minister is on record as saying that he wants to bring Nicola Sturgeon's gender recognition bill to Wales, he's on record as saying that, it's my job as leader of the opposition to highlight the fact that it's part of the government policy that I oppose and obviously scrutinise.
And if I didn't do it, who would? So it's perfectly reasonable for me to highlight that, again, it's for other people to look at it, judge it, which side of the argument they want to fall on, but I don't think bringing Nicola Sturgeon's gender recognition bill to Wales will benefit the people of Wales. And I have to say, the majority view that I speak to recognises that and believes that and endorses that,
When you say 'vulnerable people,' do you believe trans people are vulnerable people - do they fall into that category?
We've had a group of trans people at the conference today. Yesterday we were chatting about this very issue, we were, and they were very grateful for the position that the Conservatives have taken, and in particular the Welsh Conservatives have taken.
It is important that we help and support people who are transitioning from either being a male to a female or female to a male, because obviously that's a journey they decided to undertake. What I don't believe is helpful is where you have legislation such as the Scottish Government have brought forward in Scotland, I don't think that helps the cause. And I think that sets it back.
That's my opinion, it will be for others to judge whether it's the right opinion, but at least I put it on the record. And I say it as I see it, and as far as I said, in a democracy, people to make their own decision and be informed accordingly.
What about that legislation sets the cause back?
Well, I just don't think it's a sensible piece of legislation that allows it to be exploited as we saw it, in the case of that prisoner, who obviously reclassified or sought to reclassify her gender to go into a female prison. I don't think that's acceptable. I think most people would say the same, they would. And ultimately, as I said, in a democracy, it's my role to highlight that... but it is Welsh Government policy to try and seek the powers and responsibilities to bring a gender recognition act to Wales. And I don't think that would help the cause.
As I understand, the Equality Act enables exceptions to where it is obviously the case that, say, a transgender prisoner shouldn't be in the prison of their acquired gender. Is that not enough of a safeguard?
Well, it clearly doesn't seem to be does it?
In terms of polling, the Welsh Conservatives don't seem to be massively close to being in government in Wales. Is that something you see changing under your leadership?
Well, I very much hope so. We had a record 2020 result, a record number of new Senedd members coming in and a record number of Senedd members for the Welsh Conservatives. We achieved a record share the popular vote, I don't underestimate the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead of us. Obviously, they'll be tested at the general election in 2024.
And as we springboard from 2024 to 2026, I'm confident that we can make an attractive and appealing offer that will show that the Welsh Conservatives are on people's side, wherever you live in Wales, we can make those improvements into people's lives, we can get those housing problems sorted, we can get the health problem sorted, and we can do it grow and develop the economy here in Wales that people want to be part of and get decent take home pay. And importantly, we can make those improvements in education that Labour have failed to do over 25 years.
I'm assuming you'll have seen the Redfield and Wilton polling that came out around a week ago. You've got a drop in Westminster voting intention in Wales for the Conservatives since 2019, and on Senedd constituency voting intention Labour are at almost double (41%) what the Conservatives are on (21%). Why do you think that is?
Well, ultimately, polls come and go but what we do know is when an election's called, that's the election we've got to focus on. I accept obviously, we've had a challenging couple of months. And it hasn't been easy for us. But what we've got to do is focus on a united message, as we've done in this conference.
In fact, I've been speaking to your journalistic colleagues from other news outlets, who are saying how united, positive and engaged the conference has felt, and how focused in its message. And that's what we've got to do is make sure we have a united front, offering solutions and problems in everyday life, so that people can look to the Conservatives and see that we've got the answers for them to make the improvements in their lives.
If we don't do that we'll be punished at the ballot box. And last year, we spent a lot of our time looking inwards, having internal disputes, we've turned the page, we've turned the corner. And we're focused 110% on delivery.
Your messaging does lean quite heavily on the 'culture war' stuff. Say, for example, if you've got a working class voter who lives in an area that would benefit from the new freeports, and is very happy about that policy, but very strongly believes in increased rights for trans people, or falls on the other side of the culture war debate to yourself. Do you feel like you're at risk of alienating that voter?
No, we're talking plain common sense language that resonates with that type of voter. You talked about that opinion poll- the gender issue, I think, was 1% of a priority to the people have responded. What was the important priority areas was health, the economy, the environment, transport education, immigration, they were the ones that polled as the top five or six issues.
But it's not that you've been ignoring things like trans issues. I appreciate the Welsh Government spends a lot of time on it...
I have to say, you're fixated on the trans issue.
Because the messaging you put out is very heavily focused on that sort of thing.
No it's not. I was 20 minutes on the stage yesterday talking about a whole range of issues that people raised with me on a day to day basis. If WalesOnline are fascinated by the gender issue fine, fair enough. I very much. I've given you a load of detail on that. I've given you my position. I'm more than happy to engage, but I think the bulk of this interview has been focused on the gender issue.
My point is your messaging focuses on it as much as, possibly more than, the Welsh Government's. I just wonder whether the blue collar voter that you talked about might be looking at this going, actually, can we get back to the policy that matters to me?
Well, I have reacted to obviously the First Minister's statement that he wants to bring in Nicola Sturgeon's gender recognition act to Wales. That's a legitimate point of scrutiny for me as an opposition politician. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't be doing my job as an opposition politician.
Back to the polling again. Just under a quarter of 2019 Tory voters prefer Mark Drakeford over yourself. Why do you think that is?
I'll have to change my aftershave.
Is that your response?
We've all got to be making sure that we connect with voters, whether you're the Labour, Conservative or Plaid leader. I accept that there's a lot of hard work to do rolling the sleeves up, getting out there engaging. I do that on a day to day basis, my Politics and a Pint night. I think I'm the only leader in the Senedd that goes out and about and does engagement in public houses, social clubs, hotels, we've held a load over the Easter break, we have and will continue to do that. And I continue to go to all parts of Wales promoting what's good about the Welsh Conservatives.
Out of interest who gets invited to Politics and a Pint - party members, or is it open, and where are they advertised?
Here there and everywhere. I've held them in a hotel in Newtown, in the conservative club in Birchgrove, in the pub in Cowbridge, that's a pretty wide variety of establishments.
Do you feel that you hear from people who disagree with you those events?
Very much. I mean, I get challenged all the time. And that's the nature of politics. And I like to think that's my psyche, if you like, that I'm prepared to be challenged and prepared to engage and discuss.
That's what an open politician should be about and that's what the political debate is about. And sadly we don't have enough of that in Wales.
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