Thirty-five years ago, Wang Dan was number one on China's most-wanted list. The student leader, who headed months of mass protests at Beijing's Tiananmen Square, was arrested after the army violently removed the demonstrators and spent years in jail. Now living in exile in the US, he reflects on how the crackdown proved a turning point in Chinese history.
Following the military crackdown on 4 June 1989, Wang Dan was listed among the 21 most-wanted student leaders.
He was imprisoned on 2 July of that year and spent nearly two years in custody before being tried, in 1991, for "spreading counterrevolutionary propaganda and incitement" and was sentenced to four years in prison.
He was released in 1993, likely due to China's bid for the Olympic Games, and immediately continued promoting democracy in China.
As a result, he was arrested again in May 1995 after interviews with the US-based Beijing Spring and other magazines, where he advocated to build civil society in a more democratic environment.
He was held for 17 months before being charged with "plotting to overthrow the government" and sentenced to 11 years in prison.
In 1998, Wang was released for "medical reasons" and sent to the United States, following an agreement between the US and China, under which the US withdrew support for a resolution criticising China in exchange for the release of political prisoners.
In the US, he obtained a PhD in history from Harvard University, taught modern Chinese history at National Tsing Hua University in Taiwan and today heads the Dialogue China think tank in San Francisco, which he founded, and which studies alternatives for the governance of China.
Wang visited Paris in May and RFI interviewed him in our studios.
RFI: How did 4 June 1989 change China?
Wang Dan: June 4th is a turning point in China's contemporary history. There are two Chinas: the China of before 1989 and the China of after. The main difference is [that] before 1989, the state and the society cooperated. That's why we took to the streets: we as, a representative society, go to the street and ask to cooperate with the government to promote democracy. There's no difference between "us". We think we are all "us". We all take responsibility for this country.
But after 1989, many Chinese people gave up on this idea. "You" are the government. "We" are the normal Chinese people. There's no more "us". It's just "you" and "me". After 1989, the Chinese people gave up the responsibility for the country's future because they thought that they could do anything and that it is the government's responsibility to change China, not the people's.
In the 1980s, everybody talked about China's future. But today, people talk about the future of themselves.
"After 1989, the Chinese people gave up responsibility for the country's future."
Wang Dan, 1989 Tiananmen Square student leader
RFI: The Chinese government has effectively banned almost all mention of the Tiananmen crackdown, and when they do mention it, they refer to it as merely an "incident". The event has been wiped from press, propaganda and history books. To what extent and by whom is "6-4" still commemorated inside China?
Wang Dan: I don't believe that the majority of Chinese people really forgot what happened 35 years ago, because most of them witnessed what was happening at the time. You cannot just erase that memory. The problem is that people do not dare to speak and tell the truth.
But when it comes to the younger generations, they might not know a lot about what happened. They know that something happened, but they don't know the details. But it is a matter of time. In the future, if there's a democratisation in China, this issue will be raised again. So I'm not worried about it very much.
RFI: In 1978, Deng Xiaoping launched the "Open Door" and reform policy, which focused on economic reform, but there was a hope that China would also change politically. That didn't happen – there was the crackdown and political control has become stronger than ever. Do you think it was naive from observers in the West at the time to think that China, with its history of thousands of years of autocratic rule, could ever become democratic?
Wang Dan: You could say so. For myself, when I recall the reflection of that moment, I think I was a little bit naive. I thought at that time we could achieve our goal very easily if [then Communist Party leader] Zhao Ziyang or other top leaders promised something, then we will have democracy. I was very, very naive. The fact is, it's not very easy to have democracy in China.
RFI: Over the years, the overseas Chinese dissident community seems to have trouble speaking with one voice. Groups like Falun Gong fight with people like Harry Wu and there are internal quarrels. Given that you have a common enemy – China's Communist Party, or CCP – why isn't it possible to speak with one voice?
Wang Dan: If we have just one voice, then we are like the CCP. In a normal democratic society, it's very natural to have different voices. So I personally do not want our dissident group to have only one voice. I look forward to having various voices. That's normal democracy.
But in my experience, no matter how many disputes among our community, we also share one goal. It is to overthrow the CCP's dictatorship... Our quarrels are about how we can do that.
RFI: To what extent are you yourself followed or harassed by Chinese authorities, or their sympathisers?
Wang Dan: I am facing a lot of harassment on the internet. There is a lot of blackmail or verbal abuse. It gave me a lot of trouble.
RFI: How do you assess the policy of France towards China?
Wang Dan: I noticed that [China's president and CCP leader] Xi Jinping just visited France. I can understand the China policy and the traditional friendship. But we all know Xi Jinping is a dictator. He has amended the constitution and become an actual emperor. And he did everything against democracy and human rights standards. Why do French people welcome a dictator? This question confused me. I don't have the answer.
RFI: What would you say to French President Emmanuel Macron?
Wang Dan: I have nothing to say about him. I just don't understand why he wants to be a friend of a dictator.
RFI: On 22 April, German police arrested an aide to a MEP of the far-right AfD party and accused him of working for the Chinese Ministry of State Security to share information about decisions by the European Parliament, as well as spying on the Chinese community in Germany. Similar cases were reported from the UK. To what extent do you have the feeling that operatives of the Chinese state are embedded in European policymaking?
Wang Dan: After Xi Jinping took power in 2012, his real ambition was to expand the influence of China to the whole world. So that's why we see more and more of these transnational activities from the government.
You must be aware of this because Xi Jinping not only wants to keep his control inside China, now he's trying to export his ideology, his way of ruling, to the Western countries. He's trying to destroy the very basic value of Western society. That's very dangerous.
RFI: US presidential candidate Donald Trump is seen as taking a soft line towards autocrats: he was friendly with Russian President Vladimir Putin, he met North Korea's leader Kim Jong-Un, and some critics in the US say that he has dictatorial characteristics himself. Yet many Chinese opposition figures and groups like the Falun Gong living in exile in the US favour Trump. Why is that?
Wang Dan: I don't have many comments on former president Trump himself, but I do have a belief in the constitutional system and the democracy. I still believe in that. I think whoever takes power, that system will correct him. And if you keep your belief in democracy, that's very important, more than whoever takes power.
RFI: For a long time, Hong Kong was a place where dissidents could gather. Since the CCP issued the National Security Law there in 2022, that's now finished. How do people, especially those connected to the opposition movement cope?
Wang Dan: I don't think the people in Hong Kong can really do something for some time. They should be very cautious. But as time goes by, I hope the Hong Kong people keep the protest spirit in their mind. That's very important. Sometimes we have to just wait. Wait for the chance.
That's also my suggestion for those diaspora community in the UK or here in France. For those Hong Kong people, who are exiled in Western countries, at least one thing you can do is to do everything to let people know about the protest spirit of Hong Kong, the spirit of 2019. Stay positive, so maybe the next generation...
RFI: How do you see the future?
Wang Dan: The one very crucial thing is the economy. That's the last and the only one legitimate basis for CCP rule. But we all know the economy cannot recover. So if the CCP still wants to use its anti-democratic way to control the country, they will pay more and more until one day they cannot pay for it. And that day people will stand up.
Because as long as the government still has money, they can use it to keep their control. But they will lose their money. So my hope is on the economy.
