Opening a bar during one of the most challenging and turbulent periods the hospitality industry has ever faced isn't for everyone.
Unless your name is Karl Kruger Williams, that is.
The former Cardiff Rugby stalwart, who is now the general manager of Barocco in Cardiff city centre, is a man who loves a challenge - not that he ever sees what he does as work.
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"I've run bars for 40-odd years," he explained. "It's not a job for me, it's a way of life. I love it, all I want to do is have fun and see other people have a good time.
"To be able to do that again here is just fantastic. I took it on because I wanted to get back in the game, because I love it."
It was in August 2021 that Karl - along with new owner John Sullivan, the man behind the legendary Sully's Cafe on Quay Street - relaunched the bar on Wharton Street after it had shut its doors seemingly for good nine months earlier.
The venue was one of eight Brains pubs in the city centre which the brewery announced would remain closed following the fire-break lockdown in November 2020 until new tenants could be found.
Having found himself without a job at the start of the pandemic after two decades at Arms Park, where he had looked after hospitality before becoming the club's player liaison officer, Karl was itching to get back to doing what he loved best. After a brief spell working in catering in the NHS, he made a move for Barocco in July 2021.
"I'd never been out of work in my life," he said. "But when Covid came, furlough came with it and for three months, I was sat at home staring at four walls.
"It wasn't good for me at all. I've never suffered from depression in my life, but it really started to get to me. I was feeding patients in the hospital for six months during the pandemic, which is something I'd always wanted to do.
"Sully and I had discussed it when I was back at the Blues, so it was great to actually finally do it."
However, opening the bar with social distancing measures such as the rule of six still in place was not what either of the pair wanted, so they were happy to delay the relaunch until August.
"We couldn't open the bar at that point and, to be honest, I didn't want to anyway," admitted Karl. "In fact, I said that I wasn't going to open it until people could walk in here normally and go up to the bar to get the drink.
"With the restrictions, there's no interaction, nobody can chat at the bar or mill about - instead, you feel like you're encroaching on them. It's not what I'm used to in pubs and bars, and it's not something I like either.
"We waited a few more weeks to avoid them, and that's exactly what happened. It was marvellous, we got loads of people in, all chatting, drinking and having a good time. This was, of course, up until Christmas time, when all the measures came back in again!" he added.
"It's been a challenge, definitely, but when you get to a certain age, you want to challenge yourself. You think, can I still do it? Can I still get people through the door?".
Looking back on the six months since the big relaunch, that question can only be answered with a resounding yes. Business is booming at Barocco once again, with punters piling into the bar just off St Mary Street in their droves, taking advantage of its two spacious floors, happy hour deals and private floor hire.
While the bar was popular in its own right before the takeover, the Karl effect has been evident, with huge crowds heading there for a pint or few during this year's Six Nations, and rugby stars of past and present - including Mike Phillips, Leigh Halfpenny and Nigel Walker popping in to lend their support.
This is really no surprise when considering the huge role that rugby has played in Karl's life, and the esteem he is held in by those involved in the game.
Having managed several bars across the country - including Fatso's, The Bank and Tony's Wine Bar in Cardiff, as well as other venues in Richmond, Bath and Ipswich - the former Blues man has made his love of the sport well known and has seen it boost his business at the same time.
Over the course of our conversation - which runs for more than an hour - he tells me that nearly all of the bars he has run have been rugby-orientated, and is bursting at the seams with stories from them all, each one demonstrating the role rugby has played in his success.
"While I was at the Blues, I applied for a new job for a pub company and said on the form that I'd like to work in Cardiff, where I've worked all my life," he began. "But a bloke in London noticed my rugby background on my CV and told me that he had this pub, with Richmond Rugby Ground right around the corner."
"Knowing the Cardiff players well, I knew that two of them - Andy Moore and Adrian Davies - were going to leave Blues to move to Richmond. So my thought was, if I can get those two in, maybe I can get the whole lot in.
"The pub itself was a toilet. Six weeks after I took it over, nobody had come and we were taking £400 a week, that’s how quiet it was. The Cardiff boys didn't show up for a few weeks, until one day they came in to apologise for not visiting sooner, and told us that they'd come in for a pint after their game with Newcastle at the weekend.
"Saturday came, and we thought at one point they weren't coming - but then they all walked through the door," he continued. "Andy, Adrian, Brian Moore, Ben Clarke, Scott Quinnell, Craig Quinell, the whole squad, even the physios, everybody. The place was heaving and at the end of the night, they said - ‘this is our pub’. So it would be busy every Saturday, and it worked backwards too - people would see how busy it was at the weekends and then come and pay a visit during the week.
"It worked brilliantly, we were taking £15,000 a week by that point - a bit better than £400! But when they packed their bags and moved clubs, so did I, because that was the end of it, without them."
Having a raft of customers who were also international sportsmen wasn't just good for drawing in crowds, however - it also helped Karl get out of some sticky situations.
"While I was still in Richmond, the company who owned the pub decided to remove Sky from all of its pubs because it was too expensive," he said. "They announced it in this big meeting with the landlords and licensees. Now this was on a Wednesday, and I'm sat there thinking: the Lions tour starts on Saturday.
"The other pubs there were all football pubs, so the timing of it didn’t really affect them. But I knew it would be terrible for us, so I rang the director of the company directly and told him - if you can name me another pub in the whole country that has six of its customers playing in that same tour, I’ll pay for Sky myself.
"Well, it was back on by Friday." he chuckled.
But while the game clearly holds a special place in his heart, to say that Karl values rugby above anything else is to underestimate him. What's really important to him, it seems, is fun.
He drifts in and out of laughter as our conversation continues, and he reminisces about his hijinks. One venue that crops up, again and again, is the Bank Café Bar on St Mary Street.
"It was a remarkable place," he said. "It was the only place I’ve ever worked where, at the end of a night, especially on a Saturday night, you’d turn the lights up, and say ‘that was the last tune’, and you’d get 400 people calling for more.
"You’d put the lights down and give them one more song, and the place would go ballistic. Nearly every night would end on such a high."
But while there were reasonably priced drinks and a range of sing-a-long classics on offer, punters at The Bank often had to expect the unexpected.
"We did all sorts there," Karl admitted. "We had a cream pie fight one night, although we definitely shouldn’t have.
"This very well-dressed, smart-looking man came in that night with his wife, he was wearing a very smart suit jacket with red lining, we’re probably talking about £500 back in those days, a few thousand today. Well, he got covered in this cream - his missus was horrified, but he said he’d had a great night.
"I’d got it all over me too, so the next day I went to the dry cleaners across the road and asked them to sort out my two-bob suit. Well, the response I got was: 'is that fresh cream? Oh, that will never come out, you may as well throw it in the bin'.
"My first thought was - Oh God, that man’s suit, it must be ruined. But we never had a letter of complaint, because people absolutely loved it. It was just unbelievable fun - but you can imagine the cleaner’s reaction the next day!"
By his own admission, Karl became involved in managing pubs almost out of nowhere, being put in charge of Tony's Wine Bar in Cardiff aged 18, purely on the basis of his popularity amongst regular punters.
After being snapped up by Eddie Pointer, who owned Fatso's on Mill Lane, a short time later, he knew he had found the career for him. "I had no experience when I started, and I didn't know what I was doing - but I knew that I was enjoying myself."
And this is the reason why he does it. Although times remain incredibly tough for the industry, and many pubs, bars and restaurants are looking to get by, Barocco is thriving with someone who genuinely loves their job at the helm.
"It's a wonderful feeling watching people having a great time and smiling," he said. "When people come in and leave at the end of the night saying they had a fantastic night, that's what it's all about for me. It’s not about the money, I get off on people having a great time, the buzz of it all.
"With the help of my brilliant staff, it's been a fantastic atmosphere here, especially with the Six Nations on. Win or lose, get on the booze and have a bit of fun - if you're down about the result, that won't last long in our pub.
"I’ve had fun all my life, and I’ve laughed every day. Having Barocco, it gives me another opportunity to share these laughs with others - and after the last couple of years, we've needed it!".
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