On this episode of Fortune’s Leadership Next podcast, host Diane Brady talks to Marc Benioff, CEO of Salesforce. After 45 years building software, from How to Juggle, the first program he built when he was 15, to his latest slightly-larger product, Agentforce, it would be understandable if Benioff was looking elsewhere for excitement. But he sees no need.
"I've never been more excited about software, more energized or motivated, inspired. And I think that we're about to move into a completely new world," he said. "And I don't really have all the words yet because in a lot of these areas that we're moving into, I'm not an expert and I feel like I need to pick up my level of expertise. And specifically, I think, software is about to become digital labor."
Benioff is starting to see that come true at his own company. They're starting to redeploy support agents into other areas, from sales and business development to account management, as the agentic layer of their Agentforce software is able to take on more customer service questions. He adds that, at the national level in the U.S., even "economists who are not really technologists" are saying "the advancements in AI over the last several years is really an indication of why we're starting to see a little more productivity in the economy today."
Listen to the episode or read the transcript below.
Transcript
Diane Brady: Leadership Next is powered by the folks at Deloitte who, like me, are exploring the changing roles of business leadership and how CEOs are navigating this change.
Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the changing rules of business leadership. I’m Diane Brady.
In this week's episode, I speak with Marc Benioff of Salesforce. In addition to being one of the most successful leaders in tech and beyond, Marc is one of the most vocal when it comes to talking about everything from social issues in San Francisco to the future of AI.
He also happens to be one of the most curious when it comes to learning about leadership from others. So I started by asking him who are some of the most impactful leaders he's met.
Marc Benioff: Some of my mentors, Colin Powell, I think, really influenced me so dramatically in my core leadership, I would say maybe one of the most important people who I've ever had an opportunity to speak to also was Shimon Peres, who really gave me some incredible wisdom in terms of trying to create peace in the world. And I found that to be incredibly inspiring.
And then I'd also add in, really, I think the vision and the insights of some of the leaders who have done so much in, in business. And I guess I'll give you one of the people who I wish I had met, which is Hal Geneen, the former CEO of ITT who wrote the book Managing. People like that, who have really been able to capture their wisdom and encapsulate it for us, I think is so, so important.
Brady: Well, and I think that's what you bring to your own leadership. It's funny, unprompted, I would have said Shimon Peres as well. What a great man. And I remember he mocked me for having a BlackBerry when he'd moved on to the iPhone. So that was when I knew I was behind the times. But I think that's something you bring a lot to your leadership, Marc, as we're talking about AI, is it seems like in addition to running your company, you do feel this, not compulsion, but this desire to be a translator of what's happening in technology to the rest of the world. Do you think that's fair to say as you talk about AI agents?
Benioff: Well, yeah, we have a lot to talk about today, don't we, Diane? I'll say that, yeah, I've really enjoyed being in the software industry for the last 45 years. When I was 15 years old is when I started writing my first software commercially.
And my first software product, How to Juggle, to my current software product, Agentforce, and when I look at them as a continuum, I've really enjoyed software and everything that software can be and what it does and how it works and how we can work with these computers to do all these amazing things.
And especially as I've moved into business software, it's been amazing to help companies manage and share their information and become more productive, to augment their employees. There's no question, but I think that right now, I've never been more excited about software, more energized or motivated, inspired. And I think that we're about to move into a completely new world. And I don't really have all the words yet because in a lot of these areas that we're moving into, I'm not an expert and I feel like I need to pick up my level of expertise. And specifically, I think, you know, software is about to become digital labor.
And that idea that we're going to have digital workers that are built in software, that are replacing, in some cases, our human workers, augmenting our human workers, or just doing jobs that have never been done before, all of these things. Well these are areas that I have very little expertise in, actually, so I’m quite energized, because it's not very often that you get to learn so many new things all at once.
Brady: You know, I, I have to point out that I think the first tagline for Salesforce was the end of software, wasn't it? Wasn't it?
Benioff: That’s exactly right. We were trying to make the point, which is, Hey, we want to really say you don't have to, you know, you were getting the software on CDs or floppy disks and people were installing it and upgrading it and putting it all together. And that's certainly changed quite a bit. Hasn't it? Now that, you know, everybody understands now what the cloud is. I don't have to explain that anymore. Thank God. So we're in a new world, which is the cloud world. We have a new business model, which is subscription.
Salesforce also introduced its philanthropic model, which is our 1-1-1 model, where we put 1% of our equity, profit, and time into a foundation and ended up giving away a billion dollars and 10 million hours of volunteerism and 100,000 nonprofits run on our service for free. I mean, that's where we started. But today, I would say there is a new technology model, which is going to be this idea of agents. And a new business model, which is you're paying per conversation and there's no question there's a new labor model, a new productivity model, and a new economic model.
Brady: Let's drill down on that a bit, because I'll tell you how I think of agentic AI, if that's the right way to put it, which is basically you give the prompts to the chatbots of the world, and really the agents in essence are executing on their own. So I think of it as that multi-agent model like one will go and source, one will scope and it'll come back to you with sort of a plan. So it's not based on what you've input. It's based on its own discovery. Is that too simplistic? Or how would you define an AI agent?
Benioff: Well, I kind of look at it like this, we look at the healthcare industry right now as probably the largest and most important industry in the United States. It's so significant in our economy.
I'm actually, you can't see this right now, but I'm wearing a boot because I ruptured my Achilles in September scuba diving, and I go through all of these healthcare processes like we all do, and you're very much an advocate for your own health in the United States. Yeah. You know, here, Marc, you need to kind of take the scan. You need to get these labs, take these drugs and make sure you, you know, finish these and come and see your doctor and, and then somehow it's all going to work out and your Achilles is going to repair itself and you're going to be healthy again and everything is fine. And the funny thing is is that as you go through the process, and you're kind of, let's say you get the scan, and they give you contrast on your MRI or your CT scan, and they say, Now make sure you drink some water, and make sure you flush that contrast out, or, and then they give you the drugs, and now here's the drugs, and you're going to finish these drugs, but it's very important that you finish these drugs. Or you get your labs, and they say, now here's the labs, but oh, this number's a little off, so you're going to need to get a repeat lab in 30 days. The burden is on you, you're carrying that burden, that is your monkey on your back to drink the water, to finish your drugs and to get the repeat labs.
And the reality is that you really are not relying on anyone and you know your doctor's kind of burnt out already and doesn't have the time to call you and there's nobody in the hospital that's going to be calling you. So, that's all going to change and the way it's going to change is these agents are going to deliver exactly the word that you used, I think, an agentic layer on the hospital and you're going to be interoperating at the agentic layer and things that do not happen in healthcare because we have nobody to do them, you're going to get a text that's going to say, hey, did you finish your drugs?
And oh yeah, hey, what is the pain like now on your leg? Are you doing all right? And how are you feeling? And do you have any questions about that boot you're wearing? Oh, one more thing, we need to get you to come back for your repeat lab. So I scheduled it for next Tuesday at eight o'clock. Is that all right for you?
And all those things and the constant interaction and kind of helping you to become healthy again, are going to come through the agentic layer because we don't have anybody in the United States who does that. And we all know that because we're all living this healthcare system directly. This will actually make everyone a lot healthier because when you do those basic things, you do get healthier as a society or individually.
Brady: But it sounds a little like a high-end chatbot.
Benioff: I think it's a big idea, Diane, that this is like possible like never before providing digital labor. So in that case, the software is providing that capability. It's not a somebody, it's software, but it's taking the role of what theoretically would be somebody making that phone call or email or text message to you.
Brady: Now this is supposed to be the year of agentic AI, so that would imply that we are already here. Have you used any of this yourself?
Benioff: Yes, I am and our customers, let's talk about that for a second because I think that that is so important and you're right, this was not possible before. We now have hundreds and soon we'll have thousands of companies on our platform, which is called Agentforce.
And one of those companies is an amazing company with 75,000 people, $38 billion in revenue, number one in their class, incredible organization, great CEO. It's called Salesforce. [Brady laughs.] And Salesforce has a service, you know, that we offer to our customers called help.salesforce.com. And help.salesforce.com is where our customers can go to get their questions answered.
And, the first round, if you're not authenticated into our system and we don't know who you are, you can ask questions and get answered. Answers that are pretty good. But then if you authenticate it and we know who you are and we know what products you have and what you've asked before, we can give you really good answers and we have converted help.salesforce.com completely over to an agentic layer. So it's now 100% Agentforce.
Brady: And those are chatbots who will then go operate on your behalf.
Benioff: They can go and operate on your behalf. And let me tell you why that's important. Salesforce also has, of our 75,000 employees, 9,000 or so are in support. So as the CEO, now what I'm actually seeing is a lot more productivity on the agentic layer and those support agents are coming to me saying, Hey, you know, we're not as busy as we were. What would you like us to do? And it turns out we're so busy at Salesforce we want to redeploy them into being sales development representatives and business development representatives, in some case account executives, and other things directly working with customers because that agentic layer is working so well in support. So, of those 9,000 support engineers today, on my mind is, well, are we going to redeploy 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 of them? And how has the agentic layer changed our labor model at Salesforce? That is a big idea and that's an idea and a thought I've never had to have before at Salesforce.
Brady: It's true. I can't, I'm trying to imagine somebody going to you and saying, I need more to do. That sounds like a perilous career move, but those 9,000 agents that you have, you wouldn't need 9,000 of them going forward, would you? Because I think about, like in the nineties, if you had a team from India, you know, my favorite country on Earth come over, you would think, okay, I'm training these people to replace me because Wipro and, you know, Mphasis and all the other places you'd outsource to, I'm imagining there must be some resistance among those 9,000 people as opposed to excitement, I would perhaps be nervous that this agentic AI is going to replace me.
Benioff: Well, I think that this is reality that we have to live in right now, which is we are entering a new world. This is a new horizon for business. And the thought that labor is going to change. You probably saw in the third quarter, while labor in the United States remained basically stagnant, productivity went up actually significantly. And economists are saying, economists who are not really technologists, that they're saying AI, and the advancements in AI over the last several years is really an indication of why we're starting to see a little more productivity in the economy today.
So when we start to apply that to our company at a company level, like with this example, with help.salesforce.com, now there's another question which is what other things are improving? I'll give you another example in my own company because I know my company very well, we have about 13,000 software engineers and our software engineering leader is an amazing executive came to me and for the first time said, Hey, we're building the new plan for fiscal year ‘26. We're going to start at February 1st of next year. And I have something I want to tell you. And I'm like, Well, what's that? He said, I don't want to hire any new engineers this year. And I'm like, What did you say? I don't want to hire any new engineers because I am 30 plus percent more productive this year based on technology that I have added into my organization using Agentforce and other special tricks that we have up our sleeve.
Our software engineering team is just a lot better. And that is also amazing. So here I am, you have to realize. You know, I'm actually doing the work, right? I have to write a business plan for next year. And now I'm saying, okay, well, how many support engineers am I going to have? And how many software engineers am I going to have? And how many salespeople am I going to have? And accountants and all the people who are so critical at Salesforce. And I can augment and extend and change different parts of my business based on this. And that is what every CEO has the opportunity to do right now, which is to rebalance, shift, and change what their business looks like based on what technology can do today that it could not do even just one year ago. That could be in my industry or other industries, and I'd love to talk about that with you.
Brady: Well, I think it is exciting. I was listening to you in a different conversation where you compared Microsoft's Copilot to Clippy. Talk a little bit about Microsoft, because it definitely is, what would you say, I suppose, big man on campus with regard to having ChatGPT, OpenAI, Copilot, where does this leave a company like that?
Benioff: Microsoft has been a disappointment to so many of our customers with Copilot and I know anyone who's used Copilot has had the same experience that I've had, which is it doesn't seem to be able to do anything more than I can do with just ChatGPT or even Perplexity or Gemini or u.com on my phone. And the reason why is because to make this AI work and to get the value from the AI and to deliver the agentic layer, to make it truly successful, to get the accuracy to lower the hallucinogenic capabilities, you have to ground it into data and metadata. You have to give it your workflow. You have to really let it know who your business is. And I think where Salesforce is really benefiting here is, we're managing a lot of data, you know, 230 300 petabytes of data for our customers.
And because that data is there, plus the metadata, you know, that metadata is like data is a phone number. The metadata is, this is a phone number. So the AI, when it can get those two pieces of information, plus other things that we're able to feed it based on how you're using our platform, we've been able just to extend our platform.
You know, Agentforce is just a switch you're turning on in Salesforce. Now, it's not something new you're installing or some new team you're hiring, and I think that idea that it's easy for our customers just to turn this on now is very powerful. We have 135,000 customers. We have given them all Agentforce. They all have the ability to turn it on today. And not all of them are going to do that because either A, they don't have a desire, or B, they don't understand it, or C, there might be some other, situation where they're not ready in their business to do that, but we are seeing a very high rate of adoption where we're starting to see customers say, Yes, I'm going to do this, and for new customers coming in, they're designing their systems and their companies agent first.
And I think that will be a big moment where you're really saying, I'm designing my platform, my company, my industry to be agent-first. And that is a big thought.
Brady: Yeah, I think that’s interesting. It's almost like, you know, when we talk about the automobile originally just replacing sort of the horse and buggy, and once you get a critical mass, then you start to reimagine how cities are designed, how work is designed.
So. I think it's exciting. You did mention hallucinogenic. I want to stop and pause there. Do you worry about that? Because obviously, the sophistication of deep fakes, the risk of hallucinations, as we call them, how do you think about that?
Benioff: Well, this has been a very interesting process for us. Now, Salesforce not only builds Agentforce, we build some of the most accurate and compelling models in the world, AI models. And two out of the five most accurate models are Salesforce models. And we do that in our incredible AI engineering team. You know, Salesforce is the number one provider of enterprise AI already in the world today. We will do over 2 trillion—2 trillion with a T—transactions, AI transactions this week with our core platform, which is Einstein. Many people know Einstein and use it every day. Now, Agentforce is kind of the next version above that and it's new models, new techniques, new capabilities. And one of the reasons that we've been able to basically kind of grind hallucinogens down to zero in many cases, where we're seeing accuracy up in the 95, 96,97, 98% level on AI and agents is because we're grounding this data into the model itself. And that is a big capability that we have that others don't have. And we're really doing some cool things.
I also have to say we have other techniques that we've created at Salesforce, including new RAG techniques. That's Retrieval Augmented Generation. That's the ability for the AI to go out and get lots of data to ground itself. And we are able to do some cool stuff and we're getting some great results. And again, you can see it on our website, like help.salesforce.com that I mentioned, or if you go to salesforce.com on your phone, you'll see a test that I'm running right now, where I'm running an ungrounded model as a front end of my website and that idea of an agent on the front end of my website where you can just ask it about my products and even my competitors and product information has never really been done before and that is really opening my mind in terms of all the new things that I can do with customers with a completely agent first website.
[Music starts.]
Brady: Generative AI has been a transformative force in the business landscape for the last 18 months. According to the latest Fortune Deloitte CEO survey, more than half of CEOs are experimenting with generative AI in their own daily activities and, of course, trying to spread it throughout their organizations. I'm joined by Jason Girzadas, the CEO of Deloitte US, which is the longtime sponsor of this podcast. Jason, good to see you.
Jason Girzadas: Hi, Diane. It's great to be with you.
Brady: How are businesses integrating AI into their organizations? Where do you see the most substantial benefits?
Girzadas: I think it's true, as you say, that every organization wants to capitalize on the benefits of AI, particularly generative AI. The benefits have been largely around efficiencies to date and looking for ways to automate routine tasks. The promise is there for more insight driven use cases and innovation use cases. That's the next stage. We're seeing organizations looking to move from proofs of concept and pilots to see these technologies and models put in place in true operational uses at scale.
Brady: When you think about how much change there's been in the last 18 months, really curious, how do you think it's going to evolve in the next 18 months, 36 months?
Girzadas: I think we're actually needing to change our timing horizon. By all indications, we're more in six month intervals, and I think that's exciting, but also a challenge. Enterprises aren't accustomed to working in that type of cadence and with that type of pace, and so the winners, if you will, will be those that can assimilate this technology that quickly, which I think is putting real strain on organizations ability to adapt that quickly. This is a perfect instance where leadership has to be in sync to assimilate technology that quickly.
I think as a CEO, it's important that we lead by example. So I've been through all the training. I've been through all the productivity tools that we have available within our organization. But then more broadly, we've embarked upon a significant investment to deploy this across all we do.
Brady: I'm feeling the urgency, Jason. Thanks for joining us.
Girzadas: Well, thank you, Diane.
[Music ends.]
Brady: It's interesting. I think the first time I saw you, you were holding up a Philips Sonicare brush talking about how much it had improved your brushing and your teeth. You are the quintessential salesman for your own company and for your customers. And, you know, I want to talk a bit about you as a leader.
Let's start with that. What is the hallmark of sort of a great salesman? Because not every CEO has the mindset you do.
Benioff: Well, I think that number one is what the Japanese say, shoshin. Shoshin is the beginner's mind. And I think as a CEO, you've got a lot coming at you all the time. You know, you got your text messages, your email messages, your one-on-ones, your operational reviews, your investors, your activist investors, you have a lot, the media, there's a lot going on in the CEO life. And to those CEOs, I would say, I've been doing this 25 years, which is probably too long, shoshin. That is, reclaim your beginner's mind. In your beginner's mind, you have every possibility, but in your expert's mind, you have few. And every day, are you starting with some practice? Mine is, I have a meditation practice, prayer, you know, are we able to really have a beginner's mind and really look at things from the beginning?
And I think in this example that we've been talking about, Agentforce, I need to have a beginner's mind because this is new. This is very different than anything that's ever happened before. It does not fit in existing models. Our models, and when I say models, I mean really, business models. You know, it doesn't fit in our business models or anything that I've seen in any other industry.
So I need to have a beginner's mind, but this is something that I think is every CEO really needs to cultivate. And for those that get stuck and don't have a beginner's mind, they get in trouble. Because there's too many things happening too fast. And so if you are in that flow in the river, you're in the river and you're fighting the river, you're going to have a problem. You've got to get into the flow of the river.
I do a lot of consulting with CEOs, they will call me, Hey, I've got this problem or that problem or this activist investor or this. And I'll try to give them [help], but in all cases, I will tell them, hey, let's start really with your level of mindfulness and your mindset. You go, where are you? What do you really want? That is the number one question in wherever we're going to start. What do you want and what's important to you? And let's just start there and your vision and your values. And that is where I want to spend the time with you right now.
Brady: It's not something people like to talk about in public. I think about, I think your first book was Compassionate Capitalism. I know you've been very outspoken on a lot of social issues in San Francisco and elsewhere. We're entering a period right now with a different administration. You can certainly comment on that if you want, but what do you think about the state of society right now, Marc?
Benioff: Well, core values, that's what we're really talking about. Society can have values, and your business can have values, and you can have values. And when we look at administrations and presidents, and this is the time of the year when I'll get that question from, you know, on a podcast like this, and I will say, Look, I've worked with a lot of presidents and a lot of administrations in a lot of countries all over the world and administrations change, presidents change, our core values don't change.
We know who we are, and this is the opportunity for all of us to like revisit, who are you? What is your core value? We know at Salesforce it's about trust. That's number one. It's about customer success. It's about innovation. It's about equality. It's about sustainability. And those values are not going to change that.
That's what's important to us and our employees, or we call them our ohana, which is the Hawaiian word for family. You know, this idea that we believe that the business of business is not business, but it's the business of business is changing the world and that business is the greatest platform for change.
This is our core values and our mindset at Salesforce. And look, we realize technology is not good or bad. It's what you're doing with this technology that matters. And the technology is constantly changing. It's constantly getting lower cost and easier to use. And we have to then apply that to make the world somehow better. And that's what we're doing with our lives and with our company, and that's what we've been doing.
Brady: And these are the things that, I think personal values don't change. And I guess I'm, I was thinking more about the landscape where you've been, I, you were a pioneer, I think, in the gender pay equity. You've been outspoken on LGBTQ+ rights, homelessness, abortion rights. I mean, these are, it does feel like there's a lot of people right now who, maybe shocked might be too strong a word, but how do you talk about this? Or do you talk about this internally to your employees? Is it just about recapturing your corporate values and society will take care of itself?
Benioff: It's a funny thing, I think that a lot of people think, Oh. He's this political persuasion or he's this party and he's interested in this issue and really none of those things are true and it's funny I won't correct people even on social media when they said well you know he's in this political party and I'm like I'm really not but I'm not going to talk about that right now. You know, because the most important thing for me as a CEO is that I have my employee’s back.
So, in regards to changes that are happening in our country and in states, and if we have an employee who is being discriminated against in a state, which has happened, you know, and it's going to happen, I will say to them, and they will complain, and they'll say, you need to get involved, and you need to call my governor, and you need to do this, and you need to do that.
And I'm like, listen, I'm going to be able to do some things, but I'm not going to be able to do everything. But I'll tell you one thing I can do, which is, we have a big company. We have offices in all the states and in all the countries, where would you like to move? And if you're not happy there because of a change going on with these laws, or this politician, or this political philosophy, we will move you. And I think that that is probably the most empowering thing that I can do as a CEO for my employees and I think at a moment like this, I already know what's going to happen. It's gonna be very tumultuous And it'll be tumultuous in our conferences and we'll be accused of things and we're supporting this and we're supporting that.
But at the end of the day, the one group that we must support is our employees. And that is where my mindset will be, because I already know what's about to unfold, because we will be accused of being complicit in something that I don't even know what's about to happen, because the U. S. government is our customer. So, of course we have this agency, XYZ, running Salesforce and all of a sudden we'll be complicit in some action that someone will not like because we are a vendor. And, of course, that's not true. So, and the U. S. government is going to be our customer no matter who is the president or what administration is in place.
Brady: Less regulation at a time of innovation is not necessarily a bad thing as we head into the next, you know, but you're right, there's no upside in discussing partisan politics. But I do think about just the mindset of customers. And you know, you're out in California, so I know that you, that's one of the reasons you built Salesforce Tower in downtown San Francisco, right, was to keep it as a hub. Where do you get the most…
Benioff: I'm a fourth-generation San Franciscoan. I was born in San Francisco. And so San Francisco has influenced my life. You know, we are the home of Levi's, the Gold Rush. But we're also the home of the Summer of Love, we're the home of gay rights. I've grew up in that culture, in that world. And maybe that explains some of my views. Today, San Francisco is a more important city than any other in the world because we are also the home of AI. And we have all the top AI companies in San Francisco, including Salesforce and others. And, look, San Francisco is an innovative city. We're a creative city. We're a place, Haight-Ashbury. You know, a lot has happened in San Francisco. And there's a lot more to happen in San Francisco going forward. And sometimes it goes well, and sometimes it does not go well.
And then, San Franciscans have always been ones who've kind of come in to say, Hey, we're going to support the hospital. We're going to support the public schools. We're going to support the public parks. We are going to help somebody who's homeless. Yes, we're going to do all of those things. That doesn't make you a Democrat or a Republican. It makes you a human being if you're actually going to go make sure people are educated, healthy, and have shelter. So, I would say that that is incredibly important right now.
Brady: It's interesting, uh, I think about your book, Trailblazer. I think that's your fourth book, right? Maybe you could write another one are you going to write a fifth one with AI? I suppose I should ask that first.
Benioff: I would like to write another book. I don't have time. I am making some notes on what I would say if I did write a new book. And if I get a little time, maybe I'll be able to start working on it, but it does take a lot of time to write a book.
Brady: That's what agents are for, I suppose, right? One of the many things we can use them for. But I do want to kind of end off by asking a bit about where you get the joy in your job. You mentioned the 25 years with Salesforce. I know before that you had 13 years at Oracle. You had your own, as you say, since you've been a teenager, you've been entrepreneurial. What is it that you think about right now that really lights up your eyes and fills your heart when you go to work and I know you work from home.
Benioff: Well, I can tell you the joy at work is fleeting because it could be a lot of good days and a lot of bad days, but I'm going more for the fulfillment. I want to have, look at my career and say that I was able to not just make a successful business, but also to have a business that improved the state of the world. And some of those things that we've been able to do for others and give back, those are the things that I think that have really been powerful. All the new products and all the new technology and the continuum of innovation and the continuum of customer success are extremely important to me, but I would say the continuum of giving is equally as important to me. And looking back over 25 years as CEO of Salesforce, I would say that is maybe the most important thing and maybe in many cases the most differentiated against other companies or what other CEOs have done or and I guess the one of the most fulfilling things is 20,000 companies have now copied our 1-1-1 model and that has been great because I think every company and every business culture can benefit from this idea.
Brady: Do you know 80,000 companies have the term AI in their name now. That's a statistic that wows me, but, um, may I ask one other question if you don't mind? Because I have three kids that have ADHD. I know you've talked about that. And I remember doing a book with John Chambers where he talked about dyslexia, which is now seen to be such an advantage in business. So many entrepreneurs have dyslexia. I don't hear that conversation around ADHD. I'm just curious how you work differently, knowing that that's just part of who you are. Obviously, nobody questions your success or your vision, but I think it actually matters a lot to how people perceive themselves when they hear they have something like that.
Benioff: Well, I think that there's many different kinds of minds, and this is number one, there's many different kinds of human beings, and this is, we have to value our, the diversity of our genetics. It's kind of amazing, it's one of the great gifts of the world, that we have this genetic diversity.
And so I think that we have to start there and when it comes to different kinds of minds, you can have different labels, you know, somebody might have ADHD or ADD or OCD or dyslexia. And I think in all cases, I think getting some self awareness around what kind of mind you have or what you're trying to accomplish, I'll come back to mindfulness. I think that this idea of mindfulness and prayer and meditation. And having those moments during the day to kind of right size and align with your values and what's important to you and really look at what's preventing you from being successful or how will you know that you are successful and keeping track of those things and having some kind of a North Star of where you're going with your life because it does go quickly and what you really want to do is have some clarity of, hey, I'm going here.
So when I look back at my career over 40 years in software, I'm like, wow, yeah, I've accomplished, I think, almost every single thing I've set out to do. And when I haven't accomplished something, I usually get to the point where I say, Wow, that was never a goal of mine. You know, when I put my mind to it, I tend to get there. You know, I love Stephen Covey, who's no longer with us, is an amazing leader, who said, Begin with the end in mind. And I think that that's a really key phrase for all of us in business or in life. And I think when we look at our different types of minds, all of us, regardless of the type of mind you have, you have to have intention.
That is, you have to be able to ask that question, what do you want? What is your intention? The Japanese call it ishi, you know, what is it that you exactly want? Where are you exactly going? Because for the most part, regardless of the type of mind you have, if you could set your goal, you're probably going to go there if you focus on it continuously, persistently, every single minute of every single day.
Brady: That's great. And is there any question that, well, I should have, of course, asked about TIME. Former sister publication, now, now, I suppose, rival publication. I'm not sure if you enjoy being a media owner, so you can comment on that. But anything else that I haven't asked that I should have, Marc?
Benioff: Well, I've enjoyed being with TIME. Media is a difficult business. I've learned a lot. I guess that's what I've enjoyed the most is how much I've learned with the magazine. I even published a piece today on digital workers and digital workforce. You can find it on my Twitter feed.
And look, I think that this is just an incredible moment where we need to like, just appreciate how much is happening in the world and the amount of change that's going on and, and then find our place in it and then go forward. I will get back to that thought of there's never more, been a more important time to have absolute clarity on what you really want.
Because if you write it down, I think you will definitely achieve it. And with everything that's happening, we can get lost in our minds or get lost in our emotions. And we need to get back to our intention.
Brady: Great. It's a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you for joining us.
Benioff: Great to be with you, always.
Brady: Leadership Next is edited by Nicole Vergalla. Our audio engineer is Natasha Ortiz. Our producer is Mason Cohn and our executive producer is Hallie Steiner. Our theme is by Jason Snell. Leadership Next is a production of Fortune Media.
Leadership Next episodes are produced by Fortune‘s editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel. Nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.
