Host Sumedha Mittal is joined by Newslaundry’s Tanishka Sodhi and Shivnarayan Rajpurohit.
Tanishka reported on the Ladki Bahin scheme, launched recently by the Maharashtra government for women in the poll-bound state. She explains whether this scheme, the Mahayuti’s biggest bet this election, holds currency for voters. to multiple women and tries to make out that the newly minted scheme is Mahayuti’s biggest bet this election.
Shivnarayan talks about his deep dive on Rahul Gandhi’s formula to win on YouTube and social media. He says Gandhi’s team uses strategies that are no different from those used by Narendra Modi. He also explains how Gandhi’s team is sidelining mainstream media, since they believe the media played a huge role in establishing Gandhi’s image as “Pappu”.
Tune in.
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:59 - Ladki Bahin scheme
00:11:33 - Rahul Gandhi’s YouTube channel
00:44:01 - Recommendations
Recommendations
Tanishka
Imbalance of power: Women at international climate negotiations
Shivnarayan
Who was behind the NCP split? Ajit Pawar's BIG REVEAL to Sreenivasan Jain
Produced and edited by Saif Ali Ekram, recorded by Anil Kumar.
Sting: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry Podcast, and you're listening to Reporters Without Orders.
Sumedha: Order, order. Hello and welcome to Reporters Without Order. This is the podcast where we talk about what made news, what didn't, and something that absolutely shouldn't have. And today we have two stories to discuss. One, uh, of Tanishka's, uh, who has done a story on Mukhe Mantri Majhi Larki Bhen Yojana.
I, I, I hope I'm pronouncing it right, Tanishka. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And Tanishka is joining us. From Mumbai, she's on ground covering Ashra elections, and we have Shiv, Nara and Rahi in the studio to talk about his story on Raul Gandhi's YouTube channel. So, but we'll first start with Ishka because she has to
She's still covering Ashra elections and she has little less time on her plate in Mumbai,
Tanishka: the city that never sleeps. Remember
Sumedha: so tan. Please tell us that what is this Mukhe Mantri Maaji Laad Ki Behen Yojana?
Tanishka: Sure. So it's a [00:01:00] scheme that the Mahayati government introduced right after Lok Sabha between the Lok Sabha and the Maharashtra Assembly elections.
As you remember, they didn't perform very well in the Lok Sabha elections. And this scheme provides a rupees 1500 monthly to women from the age of 21 to 60 who come under a certain bracket that their family annual income should not be over 2. 5 lakhs. So, uh, there are so far, uh, the women who have received all the, um, months assistance, it's a total of 7, 500.
And, uh, if you've been following, um, news of the Maharashtra elections, this scheme has really taken, um, it is being called the game changer of the Mahayati government. And it is, it is everywhere in Mumbai and Maharashtra in the sense that it is The advertisement is in the newspaper. It's on the metro.
It's on the billboards. The publicity amount also given to this has been a lot, but it's clearly working because The people I'm speaking to, all the women know about [00:02:00] the scheme. Like, I've not really met anyone who's unaware about the scheme. So the publicity is definitely, uh, the awareness required to introduce a scheme is definitely working.
But,
Sumedha: uh, yeah. When was the scheme launched? And like, how, how many months it has been since it launched?
Tanishka: Been about four months, so it's exactly in the period between, uh, the Lok Sabha and, uh, the Assembly elections, about four months. Hmm.
Sumedha: So, has, have they able to create that buzz? Like, is it, like, is it the first thing on the women's voters mind when you talk to them?
Tanishka: See the buzz definitely is there in terms of people are talking about it. Um, I was even speaking to women about how they got their, uh, how did they make their accounts? So, um, they all sort of, uh, you know, got together, had discussions, took help from people. And because everyone wants that, everyone needs that extra.
income, no matter how much it is. But in terms of, is that going to be, uh, the main driving force behind their vote? [00:03:00] I'm not really sure in Mumbai, if that is going to happen because my story focuses on two slum clusters that are a part of two completely different constituencies in the city. And, um, the women there, most of them do, uh, acknowledge and appreciate that at least there is a scheme because in Mumbai a direct cash transfer scheme but um, most of them have said that they're not going to be voting based on this because it's, it is 1500 per month but the prices in Mumbai especially are at an all time high when we talk about inflation when the price of, you know, it's almost Again, speaking to women from different constituencies, different lanes, they were speaking in the same, um, it was the same sort of, uh, echoes of their words.
Everyone was talking, everyone was listing, um, the prices of rice, of oil, of, um, dal, of literally everything and saying that, you know, the 1500, it [00:04:00] literally goes like 50 rupees when you're spending it. Like in today's age, there is not as much value for it. It's not like they're completely disregarded. They do acknowledge that at least someone is doing something.
And in terms of, when I ask them, has it, um, changed their life at all? Has they, have they been able to use it? Uh, so everyone uses it. I mean, they are like the pe we are going to use it because we need it. Like, and these are again, slums of Mumbai and not ha slum that gets a lot of attention, gets a lot of, uh, media coverage.
Other slums that often go unreported on for a long time, you know, even now when I go to the slums versus when I did 10 years ago, it's still very narrow lanes. Um, their problems are also the, the sort of basic necessities that you would think have been resolved in the financial capital of the country.
You know, when it comes to not enough electricity, when it comes to water shortages, when it comes Uh, comes to just basically roads being [00:05:00] safe and garbage not being all over the place. So since this is not a Lok Sabha election, um, this is sort of the primary concern of the people. And of course the price rises, like many of the women told me in so many words that, uh, Um, instead of this amount, if they would instead reduce the prices of goods, we would appreciate that much more.
Because they were to quote one of the women, she was like, Ek haat se aa se Ek haat se wo de rahe se le rahe hain.
Sumedha: But do you think that the scenario would have been different in rural parts of Maharashtra?
Tanishka: Yeah, I was talking to our colleague Prateek yesterday to sort of discuss what he has found is he is also doing a similar story.
And he said the response in the rural areas is much more strong. It may be the driving force for women when they do vote, because we also do know that, I mean, enough studies and all political analysis always do speak about how cash transfer schemes really work very well in [00:06:00] terms of, because it is tangible, it is not, um, and something that is like, we will do this in the future, or we will sort of overall reduce the price of something.
It is. Directly in your account and for a lot of women actually even that I met this was the first I mean They had their own individual bank accounts. They opened it just for the scheme. So that's a big thing, you know, because otherwise It is a joint account that they have so I I do get the sentiment that There is that, uh, intent of giving them agency, uh, which of course, every woman, uh, should get, but I'm not sure how much it is working, at least in Mumbai, in the urban slums of Mumbai, because, uh, I asked all of them, you know, whether they were able to buy themselves anything, uh, with this amount, you know, something that they really like, or they want, or something just for themselves.
And. A couple of them were, but most of them were not able to because it's like 50, 100.
Sumedha: So you think that price rise is going to be a big issue, at least in Mumbai?
Tanishka: Inflation, [00:07:00] even during Lok Sabha, which I was on ground covering inflation and unemployment were two of the big, uh, factors and now also they are, which I think is a pan India, uh, scenario.
Of course, um, there, there is a lot more, there are so many more layers in Maharashtra when it comes to literally everything, especially politics, because for example, one woman told me that she uh, has been voting for Shiv Sena for years, for decades actually, but she likes Udhav Thackeray, but she doesn't like Congress and Udhav Thackeray is with Congress now.
So she's just like, I'll vote for the Shiv Sena symbol, which is the Eknath Shinde Shiv Sena, which is the BJP Shiv Sena. So these alliances, there's still confusion. There is still also Um, just restrain in, uh, really understanding who is the real Shiv Sena. You know, that question has not really been resolved.
So yeah. And also Mumbai is a extremely, even though constituencies I went to, I was only able to speak to a handful of people, maybe about 20 [00:08:00] women I had proper conversations with, but the population is so crazy that I still don't feel comfortable using a sample to You know, say that, okay, it's not going to work because yeah, and there are so many different areas, uh, you never know where it is working, where it is not.
Sumedha: But I wanted to ask you that, uh, like this, these kinds of schemes stem from what we had seen in Madhya Pradesh from Shivraj Singh Chauhan, where it became a big factor, like, uh, Ladli Behen Yojana. In Maharashtra, in Maharashtra. So it kind of stems from those schemes in Madhya Pradesh. But do you think that, uh, But do you think that this has actually increased the vote share of women voters in, um, like, like does Shinde has less women as voters in comparison to men?
And maybe this is really
Tanishka: not sure about that because this is also the first election that he is, uh, fighting the state election alone, you know, because otherwise it was the undivided Shiv Sena. And for this [00:09:00] story also, I'm not looking as at what share as much as, uh, vote preference, you know, who are you.
Another interesting factor is that, um, some of the women also said that, okay, this is Latki Bhen Yojana, but now Congress also has actually in its manifesto announced a Yojana in which they will give women 3000 rupees. They have doubled that amount. So one of them was also like, Ek doosre se toh milega.
So it's also, I mean, in a way good for the beneficiaries that at least now the stage has set that, uh, no matter who comes to power, at least. Uh, I mean, both the alliances have made promises to women, so, yeah.
Sumedha: Or is it also, uh, an image makeover kind of a scheme for a politician, you know, like, to be I don't know, like, I've never been to Maharashtra, so, like, uh Uh, like, you know, like, there are some schemes which are just not to get votes but also for an image makeover.
So like, is he, is he popular among women [00:10:00] voters, uh, is Shinde that much popular among women voters or, or his perception amongst women has changed after these kind of schemes?
Tanishka: Maharashtra, again, it's hard to differentiate in terms of gender and in, Instead of gender, mostly the, uh, constituencies would be a much better way to compare because there are six huge constituencies and, um, everything like, for example, even Lati Bhanujna, what I am telling you and versus what Prateek would tell you may be very contrasting, uh, Things of what we've understood on ground because it's, it's very difficult.
I mean, uh, one of the constituency I was reporting from yesterday, which is, um, it, it is a village, uh, it is a, um, Nagar. Most of the people, their main concerns were actually that electricity bills, which have been really, really high. I mean, they have been starting from 3000 to like 15, 000 per month. And this has completely, um, their monthly, [00:11:00] uh, balance of, uh, you know, earning and spending.
So it's, it's because in Mumbai, it's not the same. I mean, a slum in Mumbai versus a village in rural Maharashtra, uh, it is very different, uh, in terms of their, How much they're spending, where it goes, because rent in Mumbai, even in slums, is really not cheap. Yeah.
Sumedha: And now we move to Shiv's story, the YouTube fight for the future.
So Shiv, uh, first please tell us, like, what are Rahul Gandhi's YouTube numbers?
Shivnarayan: Ani currently, uh, Han's YouTube channel, in fact, currently has, uh, 8.8 million subscribers.
Sumedha: Hmm.
Shivnarayan: And, uh, the YouTube channel has uploaded so far 2,700, uh, videos. Hmm. So, Raul Gandhi, uh, theme started this YouTube channel in 2017.
Very late started compare with the, with Nand Modi's YouTube channel. Uh, n Modi began his YouTube, [00:12:00] uh, channel in 2007. 10 years before Rahul Gandhi.
Sumedha: Oh. And,
Shivnarayan: uh, Narendra Modi has three times more subscribers than Rahul Gandhi's YouTube channel. So Narendra Modi has 26 million subscribers. Wow. And, uh. But that's also
Sumedha: with 28, 000 YouTube videos which he has uploaded.
Shivnarayan: Yeah.
Sumedha: This is like 10 times more videos than.
Shivnarayan: Frequency of uploading videos is much more Narendra Modi's channel than Rahul Gandhi's It has much to do with, uh, not much to do with, but, uh, you also see. The starting point, uh, Naendra Modi was, uh, was, was the early bird, uh, started 10 years before, and Rahul Gandhi jumped into the social media, jumped onto the social media bandwagon very late.
Earlier he was very skeptical of social media. Maybe, uh, I was speaking with a few, uh, journalists who, who have covered Congress for, for, uh, for long period. So they were saying the whole Gandhi was not [00:13:00] a big fan of initially not big fan of social media strategy or
Sumedha: what would he say?
Shivnarayan: His idea was that, uh, they should have people on the ground.
Uh, our grassroots people at the grassroots, they can, uh, make us win or lose elections, but social media would not have that much impact.
Sumedha: Uh, but the game didn't matter to that
Shivnarayan: initially. Yeah. But then, uh, they realize the importance of social media, uh, the engagement, uh, uh, on the Modi social media channels, Twitter in Twitter or Facebook or, uh, um, how, um, how the BJP has used WhatsApp groups.
Um, to, uh, push their narrative, uh, during elections and after elections.
Sumedha: When was that? Was it in 2017 or even much later than 2017 after 2019 Lok Sabha elections?
Shivnarayan: Oh, when he started,
Sumedha: uh, When the Congress started, like, when was that? The Congress started paying attention much to their digital game.
Shivnarayan: So until 2019, uh, most, most of the videos that, uh, [00:14:00] uh, videos that were uploaded by his team on YouTube, they were related to his speeches, his monologues, or.
Public, uh, I mean, speeches in public meetings. So they were not sort of interactions that we see nowadays where he goes to a tea shop or where he talks to, he goes to, uh, fields, he meets farmers, he invites, uh, female farm laborers to his house or, uh, so these interactions or these, uh, creative videos were not there until 2019, at least
Sumedha: that change of 19 elections.
Shivnarayan: No. So such videos start coming in, uh, uh, I mean, such videos coincide with Bharat Jodo Yatra, which started first leg of Bharat Jodo Yatra, which started in September 2020, 2022. So that was the tipping point point for Rahul Gandhi's social media team, because there was this, uh, uh, content. Uh, very natural content.
They didn't have to look out for content because Bharat Jodha provides so much content for Rahul Gandhi's [00:15:00] social media team. So people say the content is king, right? So if you have good content and then everything falls in place. So, Even during Lok Sabha elections in 2019, they tried some experiments, uh, inviting students or inviting small businessmen.
Um, he had interactions also, but those videos, uh, seemingly what did not come across as genuine or, I mean, For, for any outsider, it would seem, uh, would seem that the, I mean, these interviews were staged or these interactions are staged. Nowadays, maybe some of the interviews are also staged, but, uh, he looks very naturally, he looks very comfortable in front of the camera.
So, uh, I think the, the social media game, Rahul Gandhi's team or for the, for that matter, Congress also, they upped their social media game from September 2022.
Sumedha: Mm. So it was Tata when they realized that, you know, there's a lot of natural content, but what [00:16:00] exactly changed Rahul Gandhi's mind? Was it like much later when his YouTube video started doing well or was it in 2022 and they were like, Chao?
Let's experiment with,
Shivnarayan: so before you, before I answer this question, I would like to go back, uh, slightly. Uh, when, uh, the Congress held a Chin shi in Eppo. Hmm. Where they discuss the organizational structure, how Congress can be strengthened organizationally, um. Uh, or so there, uh, at the time, uh, so they decided one person can't hold two posts.
So one person, one post. So at the time, Randeep Surjewala was the communications in charge of the Congress. So I think he was also given, uh, he was also in charge of Karnataka or some other state at the time. So I think he was, uh, and he was in charge of communications for around eight years until then.
So I think that was, uh, that, that, that was one of the triggers why. Congress also, uh, uh, changed the, um, social media team [00:17:00] communications team. So at the time, Surjewala was, uh, Surjewala demoted office and, uh, Jairaon Ramesh took charge as the head of the communications, overall communications. Then Supriya became the head of social media and, uh, and, uh, But Rahul Gandhi's team, social media team, works independent of the Congress communications team.
Sumedha: Okay. They
Shivnarayan: work in tandem in some aspects in terms of content or strategy. But they are two different teams. Yeah, but they are two
Sumedha: different
Shivnarayan: teams. And Rahul Gandhi's social media team is headed by Srivatsa YB who, Was he joined, uh, uh, Rahul Gandhi's team in 2021, much before the Udaipur Chintan Shivir. Uh, so, uh, he, Srivatsa was earlier Karnataka social media head.
So the reshuffle in Congress and Rahul Gandhi's team also contributed because Uh, since we have seen earlier, the Congress would only react to BJP [00:18:00] charges or allegations. Since then, we have seen how the Congress goes about, uh, um, um, I mean, goes about pushing their narrative.
Sumedha: They're
Shivnarayan: not reactionary. They are, uh, they sometimes they set the agenda.
Sumedha: That's the change at least that has happened on their social media.
Shivnarayan: Social media. Yeah. In the press conferences also. And, uh, Jaron Mesh was very, uh, I mean, he would not wait until next day to reply to any allegation, any charge, or if there is something in news. So he would tweet or he would, uh, I mean, the Congress would hold press conference.
Sumedha: Um,
Shivnarayan: uh, so this is the change that. That people have seen, um, since J Ram Ramesh took over and that change also, uh, uh, rubbed off on Rahul Gandhi's team and Srivatsa also, uh, they also got some professionals on board who can make sleek videos. Who can come up with good content strategy.
Sumedha: Hmm.
Shivnarayan: And, uh, it was not only WhatsApp, but [00:19:00] people from other departments, other Wings of Congress, they also contribute to what kind of content we need to push.
Sumedha: Hmm.
Shivnarayan: So most of the contents is Bahar. Gerta we've seen on YouTube is very organic.
Sumedha: Hmm.
Shivnarayan: Uh, so they didn't have to look for con they didn't have to look for content.
Sumedha: They don't have to go out and make content.
Shivnarayan: Right, right. It was just there and have to capture it. They were just sketch along the way. You meet so many people.
Hmm. Raul Gandhi is running, so it just. 30 second clip and it's a big hit. Rahul Gandhi stopped somewhere. He talks to a chaiwala and that's also a big hit. But initially the interaction which people could see on YouTube, the interactions were very, uh, uh, very short. But as he went along the social media part, the YouTube part, so interactions became longer.
The YouTube videos became longer. So that shows how confident has become. He has become over the, over the past few months and about his YouTube, about his YouTube and facing the camera also. [00:20:00]
Sumedha: He was not that confident.
Shivnarayan: He was not confident. I can't say, but If we look at the YouTube, uh, I mean, if it's, if it's about public speeches, then of course, uh, I mean, you have to go about, because you're a political leader, you have to go about giving public speeches, monologue, right?
But, uh, uh, when you're interacting with people, one on basis, asking, asking what problems they are facing, providing solutions. So that has to be, you have to be slightly natural, right? So I think that naturalness, uh, be acquired slightly later. So some, some people from Congress said that, uh, the, the, the, the negative with Rahul Gandhi, one of the negatives with Rahul Gandhi is he doesn't, he does not stick to the speeches written for him.
Sumedha: Uh,
Shivnarayan: He speaks from his mind. He says what he wants to say. And that's also there in YouTube videos, uh, where, I mean, it's part of the story. I would not reveal everything because the story is behind paywall. Uh, I mean, uh, some sources from his team, from the [00:21:00] Congress team also told me that, uh,
Sumedha: Whenever you'll try to.
Shivnarayan: Yeah. So there are more videos which are dropped than uploaded.
Sumedha: We'll come to that part later. But then you're saying that this is a good thing that, you know, like this thought that maybe it's better to, you know, make organic content around what, like how he's interacting with people that, you know, That sounds more convincing,
Shivnarayan: right?
So you can be selective what you want to show to the two, two people. So for example, there was this, uh, uh, he goes to, uh, do you campus? He goes to, um, uh, this, uh, Man's PG mess. I think, uh, he goes to North campus and he interacts with the students there and there's this one. So the interaction, I mean, some of the people I spoke to who were part of that, um, who were part of that interaction.
So some of them told me that the interaction lasts for, for an hour, over an hour. But the video is not that long. Video is very short. At the same time, there was a, there was another video of. Some digital journalists, uh, [00:22:00] interacting with Rahul Gandhi, raising their issues, raising their concerns, how it's become difficult for them to work in current environment because of threats, intimidation, or notices from the government.
Uh, so, uh, their interaction last also last for, for more than an hour, but the YouTube video is, I think, less than four minutes. So on YouTube, on social media, what you want to show, you can be very selective. You can show only the positive aspects of Rahul Gandhi and if
Sumedha: you have more command over literally everything,
Shivnarayan: like
Sumedha: even where he has would have gone wrong in his, you know, in his public and in his private interactions with people, they have the command to drop it.
Shivnarayan: Right. But also earlier we were comparing Rahul Gandhi and in the Modi's YouTube channels. Of course, Narendra Modi's channel has much more videos than Rahul Gandhi's channel. But if you look at the views per video of both the channels, Rahul Gandhi's channel is much better. Uh, I mean, views for [00:23:00] Rahul Gandhi's videos approximately four times more than Narendra Modi's.
So for Gandhi, it's 8. 44 lakh views per video compared to Modi's 2. 18 lakh views. And that's, that's a huge difference. So that's four times more.
Sumedha: But, but, but I'll go back to what you had said, you know, like, uh, Congress is really selective in putting out, uh, you know, in deciding, you know, which video should be uploaded and which video should not be.
And they have more command over this, but like in the last three, four years, we have also seen that Rahul Gandhi is not giving any media interviews and they have, they're seeing this. As a channel, YouTube or social media as their only channel. Rahul Gandhi is seeing as his only channel to interact with people.
So what's the reason behind that?
Shivnarayan: Of course, I was speaking with Supriya Srinth, who is the Congress social media head. So I asked us the same thing that do you, uh, do you see Uh, YouTube as an alternative platform where, [00:24:00] uh, where you don't have to like as an alternative platform to push your narrative, uh, uh, push your agenda.
So, and that's why you sidelined the media. So she said both are not exclusive, exclusive to each other. So we go hand in hand. Uh, We also interact with the media and we also, uh, um, use social media, including YouTube. I think she was speaking from the party's perspective. Right. My question was very specific to Rahul Gandhi.
Sumedha: Right.
Shivnarayan: So she could not speak about Rahul Gandhi, but On the party line, I mean, she gave me the party line that we also, we are also, we also participate in debates on TV. Uh, we also write columns in, um, in newspapers. So we do both. But if you look at, look at Rahul Gandhi's, uh, history with the media, latest history, the last two years history, he has not given interviews to anyone, any journalists, but he has given interviews to YouTubers.[00:25:00]
Sumedha: That to also not YouTube journalists.
Shivnarayan: Yeah. I think one of them could qualify as a YouTube journalist, which is Mina Kotwal, uh, from, uh, from Mook Nayak. She could qualify because they do journalistic work, but the rest of them are content, either content creators or political
Sumedha: content creators like Samdish.
Shivnarayan: Yeah, content creators or food bloggers, uh,
Sumedha: lifestyle people like Kaldi Tales.
Shivnarayan: Yeah. Food. Yeah. Food bloggers. So that's what he has done. So, so Pia told me that a lot of journalists. have approached the Congress and Rahul Gandhi's team for an interview, but they flatly denied because she said the media is very adversarial towards the Congress and Rahul Gandhi.
And, and some sources also said that to create this image of Pappu being a Pappu, somebody who is novice who doesn't know about politics, much about politics. So [00:26:00] media had a big role to play. So maybe Rahul Gandhi did not like, did not, uh, did not take it in his stance. And, uh, maybe that's the reason why he doesn't want to, he didn't want to interact with the media.
But before, I mean, before 2020, 2024 general elections in 2019, he gave interviews to almost everyone.
Sumedha: That's what I'm saying. Like in the last three, four years, I've not seen him interacting with media at all.
Shivnarayan: Right.
Sumedha: But, but don't you, but
Shivnarayan: at the same time, Rahul Gandhi has also created a space for himself where he can, um, uh, he can.
He can show his own image, uh, without this intermediary where you interpret what he has said or you, you select if, I mean, of course the media is biased in so many ways, like it's not.
Sumedha: But that's the mainstream media. No. What is his problem with not giving interviews to independent, uh, independent media outlets or him not giving interviews?
Talking to even newspapers, I've not seen, I've not seen him [00:27:00] giving interviews with Express or the Hindu or any newspaper. Like the only thing I can remember him talking, giving one quote to Financial Times.
Shivnarayan: First, Rahul Gandhi's team or people in the Congress, they believe that, uh, in creating this Pappu image, media played a big role, huge role.
Uh, uh, before 2019 and after, I mean, I think that image, uh, image makeover happened after Bharat Jodhaviyata to some extent. So he was able to turn the tables. Uh, but why he's not talking to the independent media, uh, uh, that's a big question, uh, uh, which I have, uh, I don't have any answer, uh, because one reason is that, Independent media houses, they don't have that much reach, that much influence.
That's
Sumedha: what he feels.
Shivnarayan: That's what he feels. That's what, that's what his team feels that, uh, because of influence, because of impact. And if, if by just putting a YouTube video, uh, it's like feed, right? It's like ANI feed. You put out a video and [00:28:00] all newspapers, all media houses, they run. So he doesn't have to go to each person, each newspaper or each TV channel to, um, uh, to, to push his narrative,
Sumedha: uh,
Shivnarayan: to, to, uh, to spread his message.
Sumedha: But don't you think this is also coming from a part of like arrogance, uh, that he does not feel that he needs media at all. Like he's not the only politician who has been berated so much. There have been other politicians as well. And, and. Like, isn't it goes also against his progressive values that, uh, about like, he stands for progressive values and press freedom is one of them.
So what is your opinion about that? Or like, have you, like, was it inside? If you are, if
Shivnarayan: you are, if you are in politics, there are no permanent enemies, there are no permanent friends. So if somebody has baited you, uh, say three years ago, uh, you can't hold it [00:29:00] forever. As I was talking about how the media's impact.
Independent media houses impact or influence, uh, uh, is not that much by the same time there are people, there are some experts who told me that, uh, just to make sure that these videos are well received, they are propagated well, everybody, more and more people watch it.
Sumedha: You
Shivnarayan: also need, you, you require media at the end of the day.
Because. Back home in villages, people read Hindi newspapers. So, if they are not covering your videos, so the latest video is on is, is, is zipping through zip line campaigning in Kerala in Wayanad campaigning for Priyanka Gandhi. So, if This video, this, uh, campaign is not covered by Hindi newspapers. People, people would not get to know about it.
Sumedha: Exactly. This is never going to become news.
Shivnarayan: So the media's [00:30:00] role in propagating and spreading Rahul Gandhi's video messages. It's very important. Right. It cannot be played down. Right. The Congress has to see it.
Sumedha: Are, are his party workers convinced with his decision to not talk to media at all?
Shivnarayan: So, so the, the, the biggest flaw, uh, uh, when I was told by Rashid Kidwai, that Rahul Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi, He's, he's one of the most prominent leaders in India.
He's LOP now. He holds constitutional post and he's the, he's among very few leaders who does not have media consultant. So, I mean, he had very valid question, like who are the people who are, who have advised him not to interact with media at
Sumedha: all.
Shivnarayan: Yeah. So his theory was that, uh, if the day Rahul Gandhi starts interacting with media, the coterie of Rahul Gandhi would lose.
Uh, it's relevance. That was his argument. Why Rahul Gandhi is not interacting with media or Rahul Gandhi is not allowed to interact with the media. So [00:31:00] there are two things. So, uh, Rashid Kidway believed that, uh, Rahul Gandhi is, I mean, he can face all kinds of questions. He said he's well educated. He's, uh, he's well articulated, but and he can answer all the questions.
He has, uh, he can speak on all kinds of subject. It's not that he's afraid of the questions. Unlike Narendra Modi, who hasn't held any press conference, one press conference where he did not answer questions. So Rahul Gandhi goes to press conferences. He answers questions. Giving interviews is not a big ask for Rahul Gandhi.
Sumedha: Exactly. But
Shivnarayan: how Rahul Gandhi has been influenced by his team, his core team. I mean that's how Rashid Kedwai saw it. And that's, I mean, Rashid Khedwai also said that in giving interviews to media would not reduce, would not reduce your stature.
Sumedha: Hmm.
Shivnarayan: It will only help the Congress in spreading its message.
Sumedha: Hmm.
Shivnarayan: Rashid Khedwai said like, who doesn't want to interview Rahul [00:32:00] Gandhi?
Sumedha: Right. Is there
Shivnarayan: any media house?
Sumedha: And then. Which,
Shivnarayan: who would say, no, we don't want to do this. And
Sumedha: then how does it make him different from, you know, like, uh, Narendra Modi also does not believe in press freedom. Hmm. Hmm. Like, I mean, it raises big questions, you know, like, will he encourage press freedom tomorrow if he becomes the prime minister of the country that is to be seen because he also wants everything like so much hold over everything is, you know, putting out in the world.
So there's also another, uh, thing which I had mentioned about the, which shows how much control he wants about what is putting out in the world is that you had, you had just mentioned that, you know, there are more number of videos which are dropped. Then. the videos which are uploaded. So what are the kind of videos which are dropped?
Shivnarayan: First, I'll tell you the reason why these videos are dropped. So there is a third party, uh, called Teen Bandar. So, which is based in Mumbai. It's a, it's a communications PR, uh, firm. So they edit videos. They also, Shoots, [00:33:00] uh, most prominent videos of Rahul Gandhi. Otherwise, Rahul Gandhi has his own team also that shoots videos.
So once at the editing stage, uh, they see what Rahul Gandhi has said, uh, they want to make sure Srivatsa's team also is part of, Srivatsa has. the, the veto power. So he, he can decide which video will go, which will, which video will be dropped. Uh, so the most common reason for dropping a video is that, uh, if this video is out, it might have political cost to it.
It might, uh, dent Rahul Gandhi's political image. It might, uh, it might become me material for the BJP or for the parties. Uh, So they're very cautious. So they're very cautious what they put out. They're very cautious about each word uttered by Rahul Gandhi in, in such interactions. And, uh, so one video was, [00:34:00] I, I don't want to name the leader.
If I name the leader, I think that I would be outing the source. Uh, one video was, uh, about a leader with, with, uh, with whom Rahul Gandhi had an interaction, just like, uh, former RBI governor had interaction with Rahul Gandhi and the video was put out on his YouTube channel. So similarly, there was, uh, another leader, political leader in, in, in the, in this example, uh, and in that interview, Rahul Gandhi said something against minorities, something against minorities, sorry, something against minorities.
Marginalized communities. So had that video been uploaded, it would have if it would have had huge political cost for Rahul Gandhi. Maybe it would have ended Rahul Gandhi's career. Another example is, is when Rahul Gandhi's team invited Dalit journalists to his house and, uh, Our one of our colleagues full
Sumedha: disclosure here, like one of our colleagues was also a part of it.
Shivnarayan: So, uh, one of our colleagues, Avdesh Kumar has also written on his interaction or other reporters [00:35:00] interaction with Rahul Gandhi in that meeting, though the video was not uploaded and, uh, I think all the reporters were not allowed to carry any recording device. And, uh, from his memory, what he noted down, so he penned down his experience, what transpired in that meeting.
Sumedha: Abdesh has done that. Yeah. Abdesh
Shivnarayan: Kumar. So that video was also not uploaded. The reason was since. Avdhesh has told us, Avdhesh has written about it, uh, Rahul, the moment Rahul Gandhi entered the room, his first question to all these Dalit journalists was, tell me is Mayawati Dalit or not? So he's questioning the very identity of Mayawati.
So had that video been uploaded, I think it would have become a Or would it have dented the same
Sumedha: Dalit voters he's trying to Take on his side.
Shivnarayan: Right, right. Now his whole, uh, political plank is constitution, saving the constitution, saving him
Sumedha: saying this in private would have,
Shivnarayan: would have had
Sumedha: huge consequences.
Shivnarayan: Huge [00:36:00] political fallout for the Congress and Rahul Gandhi. So such videos, uh, I dropped. I dropped. And you also see the frequency is not as much as Rahul, as, as Narendra Modi's YouTube channel. So the Congress leaders also lamented that we need to increase the frequency of uploading videos. So I think the latest video, which is, uh, the why not campaign, uh, it has come out, uh, uh, with a, with a gap of 12 days.
So just one video in 10, 11 days on YouTube. But this says a lot, you know,
Sumedha: like the kind of videos which are being dropped and you know, like how the videos have to be edited, like how the politicians in India have found not just in India, but how the politicians have found a way through the social media and have found a way to have more command on.
About, you know, how they present, how they want to present themselves, you know, like, I feel it's also dangerous, you know, like tomorrow when they come into power, they'll also feel [00:37:00] that, you know, that the media is not that important, how we have seen in the region.
Shivnarayan: They've taken it from BJP's book, that there's no need to interact with the media.
Our top leader doesn't. doesn't have to interact with media because he can do it from his social media accounts, uh, from his YouTube channel. And then how will they
Sumedha: be different? That's the question, you know, that's something to be seen.
Shivnarayan: Right, right.
Sumedha: But my last question is that how does Rahul Gandhi decide to which YouTuber he has to talk to because we have seen him talking to curly tails and there's this one food vlogger also he has spoken to which is he's also very popular where he had gone in in that video he's gone to a Al Jawa restaurant in Chandni Chowk and had also drank this Yeah.
So how, how do these, you know, like, how do they decide that, you know, they have to do these kinds of videos because Curly Tales I've seen has done more, most of her videos are with, you know, the BJP leaders.
Shivnarayan: I wouldn't go into [00:38:00] Curly Tales background, but how they decide, uh, for example, How they decided to, uh, to give interviews, uh, to these five YouTubers, five, uh, uh, five people.
It was decided by the, by the Rahul Gandhi's team.
Sumedha: So
Shivnarayan: they handpicked these people. Most of them. I wouldn't say all of them because Kunal Vijaykar told me that it was from both, it was both ways. I got, got in touch with the Teen Bandar, which is the PR team, which edits videos and shoots videos for Rahul Gandhi's YouTube channel.
So he got in touch with the Mumbai firm and then that, that happened after he saw, he watched. Curly Tales video, because he's also a food blogger. So he was like, if Rahul Gandhi can be interviewed by Curly Tales, why, why not by me also? Uh, so that's how he got in touch with Rahul Gandhi's team and Teen Bandar.
Uh, but other, uh, interviews, at least three of them in three of, uh, in three [00:39:00] instances, Rahul Gandhi's team approached them
Sumedha: rather
Shivnarayan: than the approaching Rahul Gandhi. Maybe because it, Because at the time, Rahul Gandhi's team was also looking to popularize Rahul Gandhi's YouTube channel. And not all of them had huge following, but at least Samdesh, Curly Tales and Kunal Vijaykar, they had huge following at the time.
Still they have, they've grown, but not so much. Um, uh, I can't say that, uh, Shyam Meena Singh and, uh, Meena Kotwal had huge following on YouTube.
Sumedha: Um,
Shivnarayan: uh, but. Mina Koal and Shami Singh, they pushed the Gandhi narrative. Mm.
Sumedha: Because
Shivnarayan: Shami Singh was terminated by Aztec, uh, in 2021. After he called out Modi. He called Modi Shameless Prime Minister.
Sumedha: Mm.
Shivnarayan: So Shami Singh and Mina Koal Koal for, for her, uh, her stories on Dalits and marginalized communities. Uh, I think they fit, they fit in the narrative that Ra Gandhi was trying to push. [00:40:00] Push, huh? Uh, Usme at the time he was, he was saying ki Uh hmm. So, Shamir Singh was somebody who called out Prime Minister.
Sumedha: Hmm.
Shivnarayan: And, uh, I think that's why Shamir, I asked Shamir Singh like, why do you think Gandhi asked you? Were you surprised? Hmm. So, of course he, he said he, I, I, I was shocked. Hmm. Why Raul Gandhi would choose me to interview him.
Sumedha: Hmm.
Shivnarayan: So my next question was, uh, do you think that Rahul Gandhi chose you, his team chose you because you fit in that dharomath narrative
Sumedha: of them?
Shivnarayan: Oh yeah. How journalists are working under pressure. They are being intimidated or they're not allowed to view their, uh, view their, uh, express their views. So sha ing agreed to some extent. Like yeah, maybe that's why I was chosen. Ah, Mina al to some extent also, because she writes on Dali, on the lit issues on, on
Sumedha: Dali issues.
Yeah. And,
Shivnarayan: uh, it was a huge political plank for Ra Gandhi to, uh, attract uh mm [00:41:00] Dali voters. So. These, uh, plays were chosen either to, uh, increase Rahul Gandhi's YouTube following, YouTube followers, or push a certain narrative of Congress and Rahul Gandhi. But at the same time, the dark side of, people say it's not dark side that, uh, At least two of them, two YouTubers who interviewed Rahul Gandhi, their flight tickets were paid for by Rahul Gandhi's team.
And, uh, there were other YouTube journalists, not content creators, who were also approached by Rahul Gandhi's team to popularize his channel. Uh, so they refused to, they refused to interview Rahul Gandhi by saying that we cannot let others edit our content. our interviews. So I think Rahul Gandhi's team set this condition that Teen Manda would edit out this video.
And first we will put this video on our YouTube channel. After that, you can put it on your YouTube channel. So [00:42:00] some journalists, some of the journalists said that this compromise with our editorial independence, how can we let third party edit our video? So
Sumedha: those interviews were totally,
Shivnarayan: they agreed to everything.
These YouTube journalists and Rahul Gandhi's team that, yeah, we have scheduled an interview, but YouTube journalists pulled out because of these conditions
Sumedha: that
Shivnarayan: the YouTube video would be edited by a third party and the video will be first uploaded on Rahul Gandhi's YouTube channel. So these conditions, uh, they didn't want, they didn't, they said we can't abide by these conditions because of our editorial independence.
So if we are interviewing But that speaks
Sumedha: a lot about, you know, how his team is functioning. They don't want anything uncertain at all. You know, they want command over everything. That speaks
Shivnarayan: volumes about Rahul Gandhi. How Rahul Gandhi's team or Rahul Gandhi sees the press, the media. Yeah. If they come to power, I don't think so they'll be different from what Narendra Modi does to the media.
Sumedha: That is to be seen. Let's see. Like, that's a big statement. Let's see.
Shivnarayan: I think Ahmadi Party is doing the [00:43:00] same in Punjab.
Sumedha: Yeah, not just in Punjab, but in Delhi also, like we don't,
Shivnarayan: if you write anything against Aam Aadmi Party, I don't think so any, any, uh, any journalists would be even allowed to enter their party office.
There have
Sumedha: been several instances where, you know, even
Shivnarayan: single article, they've been thrown out of their WhatsApp
Sumedha: groups. Yeah.
Shivnarayan: Yeah.
Sumedha: This brings me to the point that, you know, how press freedom in this country is being eroded every day and independent media is, is playing a huge role in, uh, saving that and especially news laundry, because we are not paid by big money.
We, we depend on our subscribers. That is you. And so if you're not a news laundry subscriber yet. Please consider becoming one. And we have two Senas going on. Uh, like our reporters and our editors are on ground covering Maharashtra and Jharkhand elections. Uh, so please go to our website and contribute to these two funds.
But last thing from you, what's your recommendation for our [00:44:00] viewers this week?
Tanishka: I'd like to recommend a story in Dialogue Earth, which is called Imbalance of Power, Women at International Climate Negotiation. So it's a very interesting deep dive that shows how women's representations at UN climate conferences has actually barely improved in the last 30 years, especially women in South Asia.
And it also explores as to why women delegates are missing in cops. So I think it's a timely story. And, uh, yeah, I thought mentioned the reporter's name. That is my fault, but her name is Shalini Kumari. So yeah, do read that. And also just, uh, I would urge our viewers to check out our reports from Maharashtra and Jharkhand.
Shivnarayan: And also my recommendation is Srinivasan Jain's interview of Ajit Pawar, which is making a lot of headlines. In other newspapers,
Tanishka: it's definitely the talking point and in Delhi, I'm assuming. Yeah, it is. It has the
Shivnarayan: shocking, the shocking, the most shocking thing is how come Adani was part [00:45:00] of the political negotiation.
Tanishka: Who knows whether the interview comes out, maybe there will be updates.
Sumedha: And with this, this podcast is adjourned.
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