Evening summary
Rishi Sunak has said in a BBC Question Time leaders’ special that he was “incredibly angry” to hear about the Tory election date betting allegations and that Tory colleagues should face “the full force of the law” if they are found to have broken the rules. (See 9.36pm.)
Keir Starmer has again refused to say if he really believed in 2019 that Jeremy Corbyn would be a great PM when he said he would. But he has said Corbyn would have made a better PM than Boris Johnson. (See 9.12pm.)
And here is a fact check from Ben Quinn from the QT special, which also featured John Swinney and Ed Davey.
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What Keir Starmer said when asked about his 2019 comment about Corbyn - full transcript
Here is the transcript of the exchange between Fiona Bruce and Keir Starmer about Jeremy Corbyn.
FB: You also said in February 2019 that Jeremy Corbyn would make a great prime minister. You said already, you thought you weren’t going to win that election. Putting that to one side, you said he would make a great prime minister. Did you mean it or did you have your fingers crossed behind your back?
KS: I didn’t think we would win that election.
FB: You said that. Irrespective of that, you said he’d make a great prime minister. Did you mean it?
KS: It wasn’t a question that really arose because I didn’t think we were going to win the election.
FB: We all heard you. We all heard you saying he would be a great prime minister. That was your way of telling the people here to vote for him. Did you not mean that?
KS: I was campaigning for the Labour Party. And I’m glad I did.
FB: But you also campaigned for Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister.
KS: I was campaigning for the Labour party. I was a Labour politician. I wanted to be elected, or reelected, and I wanted good colleagues to be reelected. Some of the people around the shadow cabinet table were people whose seats were saved because we campaigned hard for the Labour party.
FB: Just answer this, yes or no. When you said Jeremy Corbyn would make a good prime minister, did you mean it?
KS: Look, he would be a better prime minister … [pause] … look what we got, Boris Johnson, a man who made massive promises, didn’t keep them and then had to leave parliament in disgrace.
FB: Did you think he’d make a great, not even just a good, a great prime minister?
KS: I didn’t think we were in a position to win that election. And the more I looked at the preparation we’ve now down, the more convinced I am about that.
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Rishi Sunak floats sanctions on young people for refusing national service
Here is Peter Walker’s story about the Question Time leaders’s special, which leads of on Rishi Sunak indicating that young people might face restrictions on access to finance or driving licences if they refuse to do national service, as he faced a TV quizzing from voters.
BBC Question Time leaders' special - snap verdict
Who won? Arguably Ed Davey. It sounded as if the audience was more receptive to what he was actually saying than with Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak, and he was good at engaging with the questioners. John Swinney generally got a respectful hearing too. But the first hour felt like a warm up for the two interrogations that mattered most.
Of the two, Sunak was really struggling. It is hard to recall a leader facing such a hostile audience at one of these Question Time specials, and overall the exchanges didn’t do anything to imply all these MRP polls are on the wrong track. Sunak started with a statement about how “incredibly angry” he was about the Tory election date betting scandal. (See 9.36pm.) On paper, the words were strong, and passionate. But if he was really so “incredibly angry”, why did he adopt a very different tone when the story first emerged in the Guardian last week? (Answer: it was not leading the BBC news all day.) And then, when faced with a follow-up question, Sunak resorted to saying the same thing all over again – his standard modus operandi in pooled media clips. He was also lucky not to be asked why he is waiting for the outcome of a Gambling Commission inquiry when, if the allegations are correct, he could very quickly get to the bottom of what happened himself with a phone call.
As the hostile questions continued, Sunak did push back. He argued with Fiona Bruce on various points, and he seeemed happy to have a row with people in the audience over immigration, and the European convention on human rights. Perhaps some Tories will like the combative approach. But he sounded increasingly short-fused and unsympathetic, and when he tried to link Starmer with Liz Truss, that was bizarre and desperate too. It was all a bit unedifying.
Starmer’s most difficult moment in the campaign, until tonight, came when Beth Rigby asked him if he lied about admiring Jeremy Corbyn, and it was understandable why Bruce came back for another go at this. (See 9.12pm.) Starmer was still evasive, but less so than he was last week, and it felt as though this is not a topic that can harm him any more than it has already. After that, he was on stronger ground, and overall it was a solid performance.
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The final question comes from a student who asks what Sunak will do for young people.
Sunak says he will cut their taxes sothat, when they get a job, they can keep more of their money.
And that’s it.
As the credits roll, there is some shouting from the audience that sounds like “Shame on you.” It is a reference to Sunak’s answer on the ECHR.
Q: Russian and Belarus are the only two countries that don’t subscribe to the ECHR.
Sunak says the UK does not need a foreign court to tell the UK what to do.
It’s not a foreign court, he says.
He repeats the point about putting national security first.
Q: Why are you considering leaving the European convention on human rights. That’s inhumane?
Sunak says 15 EU countries have now backed removing asylum seekers to safe third countries. He says, faced with a choice between national security and a foreign court, he will choose national security every time.
Bruce asks why he is calling it a foreign court, when the UK helped to set it up.
It’s in Strasbourg, he says.
“If a foreign court…forces me to choose between our national security and membership of that court, I’m choosing our security”
— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) June 20, 2024
Quizzed on the European Convention on Human Rights, Rishi Sunak is applauded for saying he will prioritise Rwanda flights over ECHR membership #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/iyd1xJPFqQ
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Sunak says Keir Starmer has spent the last three days not saying what he will do about council tax. It will go up. Sunak will fight that, he says.
Bruce points out that the tax take has gone up under the Tories.
Sunak claims Starmer promising UK 'same fantasy that Liz Truss did', and it will lead to higher taxes
A woman says the UK needs foreign workers because “our lazy lot” won’t do these jobs. She asks why the UK can’t be stricter on illegal immigration.
Sunak says he agrees. He says the government is copying something they did in Australia. If he stays as PM, he will deliver the Rwanda deportations. But Keir Starmer won’t, he says.
Q: Why did you call the election early?
Sunak says his number one job was delivering stability. Once he had got inflation under control, he wanted to give people a choice.
Q: Are you glad you called the election when you did?
It was the right thing to do, he says.
When he was in a leadership contest against Liz Truss, he said she was wrong. He kept going until the end and was proved right. He goes on:
And that’s why you can trust me now when I say that what Keir Starmer is promising you is the same fantasy that Liz Truss did, and it’s just going to mean your taxes are going to go up.
Sunak says of course migrants can make a contribution, like his grandparents.
But the level is too high, he says.
He says, if he wins the election, there will be a legal migration cap.
Q: But, if you want the right kind of workers, they need to be able to bring family members.
Sunak says the government is saying, if people bring family members, they need to be able to support them.
Q: What happens if people cannot afford to do that?
Sunak says there are fantastic people willing to come to the UK without dependants.
Expecting people to support their families is fair to everyone, and that is why he thinks it is the right thing to do, he says.
Sunak says the NHS is doing more operations, treatements and referrals than at any time in its history.
But during Covid 6m operations were missed, so that is a lot to catch up on, he says.
Q: NHS waiting lists have more than doubled under your government. What message do you have for people on those waiting lists?
Sunak says he comes from an NHS family. The NHS matters to him. But he is putting record investment in, he says.
He says inflation hit 2% yesterday. When he became PM it was 11%. That shows what can happen when you stick to a plan, he says.
Q: Brexit has denied young people a future.
Sunak says we had these debates a few years ago. He is not going to relitigate them.
You don’t have to go far from here to see the benefits, he claims. He says the Teesside freeport is attracting thousands of good jobs as a result of Brexit.
Bruce says you could have freeports without Brexit.
Not in the same way, says Sunak.
He says he is focused on the future.
Sunak is now being asked about his national service plan.
Asked how he will make it compulsory, various options are available. He mentions access to finance.
Q: Will you take people’s bank cards away?
Sunak says there are various ways of having incentives and sanctions.
Sunak says he is 'incredibly angry' about betting allegations, and suspects must face 'full force of law' if found guilty
And finally Rishi Sunak gets his go.
Q: We have had five PMs in the last seven years, and one of them lasted just seven weeks. We are a laughing stock. Are you embarrassed to be here as Tory leader?
Sunak says this was a problem he acknowledged when he became PM.
Q: Aren’t the latest gambling allegations an example of the lack of integrity we have had to put up with from Tories for years and years?
Sunak says he was “incredibly angry, incredibly angry” to learn of these allegations.
I was incredibly angry, incredibly angry, to learn of these allegations. It’s a really serious matter. It’s right that they’re being investigated properly by the relevant law enforcement authorities, including a criminal investigation by the police.
And I want to be crystal clear that if anyone has broken the rules, they should face the full force of the law. That’s what those investigations are there to do. And I hope that they do their work as quickly and as thoroughly as possible.
Q: You are happy for them to go into the election?
Sunak says these investigatons are ongoing.
They are serious investigations. They must be done seriously. The integrity of the process must be respected.
If anyone has broken the law, he will make sure they are booted out of the Tory party.
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Asked about housing, Starmer repeats the pledge made earlier today about banning landlords from getting renters to engage in a bidding war.
Q: Would landlords have to take the first offer?
Starmer says there would be a scheme in place to stop this.
UPDATE: Dan Bloom from Politico has the full answer.
Full Keir Starmer transcript on rent bidding wars, courtesy of @bethanymrd
— Dan Bloom (@danbloom1) June 20, 2024
Lab officials insist this is not rent controls — previous Lab amendments would've forced landlords to advertise a single rent figure in advance, then prevented them raising that figure during the process pic.twitter.com/xd4KkPuj0c
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Starmer says he agrees with what Tony Blair said recently about gender and sex (that men have penises and women have vaginas).
He says he is also worried by how the debate on this became very toxic.
“You criticised your MP Rosie Duffield for saying only women have a cervix, you recently backtracked on this”
— BBC Question Time (@bbcquestiontime) June 20, 2024
“My view in life is to respect and give dignity to everyone, whatever their position”
Sir Keir Starmer cites “toxic” debate around issues of biology and gender #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/NZcNUmNnv2
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Q: Is it acceptable not to have a target to cut immigration?
Starmer says he does not want to set a target that won’t be met.
UPDATE: Starmer said:
Every single politician who has put a number on it has never met that number …
We want to get it down significantly. It needs to be balanced immigration so it works for our economy and works for our country.
We need to get it down, but if we are going to do that, we need to understand what the problem is.
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Q: Why should anyone think you will create a trustworthy government, given all your U-turns?
Starmer defends his U-turns on tuition fees and nationalising energy companies.
After Covid, he decided it was more important to spend money on the NHS than on getting rid of tuition fees, he says.
And he says that nationalising energy companies would not help people with bills.
Starmer again refuses to say if he really thought Corbyn would be great PM, but says he thought Boris Johnson worse
Q: You also said Corbyn would make a great PM? Did you mean it or did you have your fingers crossed behind your back?
Starmer says he did not think Corbyn would win.
Q: But did you mean it?
Starmer says the issue did not really arise. He says he was campaigning for the Labour party. He wanted Labour people to be elected. He was a Labour politician.
It wasn’t a question that really arose because I didn’t think we were going to win the election.
Q: Did you think he would make a great PM?
Starmer says he would have been a better prime minister – he pauses, and goes on – “Look what we got, Boris Johnson, a man who made massive promises, did not keep them, and then had to leave parliament in disgrace.”
Q: But would he have been a good PM?
Starmer says he did not think Labour would win.
This is a more prolonged version of the exchange that Beth Rigby had with Starmer on this during the Sky News leaders’ special. Starmer is still refusing to give a direct answer to the question, but today he went further then he did with Rigby, saying that he thought Corbyn would have been a better PM than Boris Johnson.
He also went a bit further in hinting that this was just obligatory campaign insincerity (praising your leader, even if you don’t mean it, because that is what you are expected to do during elections), although Starmer did not put it in those terms. He won’t, because he does not want to admit that when he said he thought Corbyn would be a great PM, he was not telling the truth.
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Keir Starmer faces BBCQT audience
Keir Starmer is up now.
It sounds as if the applause is louder than for Davey and Swinney, but is is hard to tell. There is also a bit of booing.
Q: You criticised the Tory manifesto as Corbyn-like. So why did you campaign for Corbyn?
Starmer says:
I campaigned for the Labour party, as I’ve always campaigned for the Labour party. I wanted good colleagues to be returned to parliament. I knew we had a job and a half to do as a Labour Party because I didn’t think we were going to win that election. Afterwards, we got the worst results since 1935.
After that he decided Labour needed to change.
And he says he said what he did about the Tory manifesto because it is not fully funded.
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Swinney says Labour election victory 'racing certainty', and Tory government has been 'total disaster and calamity'
Q: Which Westminster leader would be best for Scotland, Sunak or Starmer?
Swinney says the Tory government “has been a total disaster and calamity, so it can’t be out of office quick enough”.
He says Labour winning is “a racing certainty”.
But he says Scotland needs SNP MPs to put the case for Scotland.
Swinney says Rishi Sunak has said he will authorise new oil and gas licences. That’s “completely and utterly irresponsible”, he says. He says Sunak is denying the climate emergency.
He says he wants to see a transition to net zero.
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'Sooner we're back in EU, the better,' says Swinney
Swinney says people in Scotland are really suffering because of the absence of freedom of movement, the single market and the customs union. “The sooner we can get back into the European Union, in my view, the better,” he says.
Q: How can you bring people together when you are campaigning for a second, divisive independence referendum?
Swinney says it is about having a debate, and bringing people with you. He tries to do that through “respectful, courteous debate”.
The next question is from Tina.
Q: If you get no more funding from Westminster, how will you fix NHS funding in Scotland?
Swinney says he accepts there are “some very significant challenges” in the NHS in Scotland. Some of that is due to Covid.
Scotland gets the block grant from Westminster, and the money it raises itself.
The Scottish government has increased tax for higher earners. It now has £1.5bn as a result, that it would not have if it had not raised tax.
But 14 years of austerity is also having a long-term effect. And Labour and the Tories are not proposing a solution to this, he says.
Bruce asks why long hospital waits are so much longer in Scotland.
Swinney says he thinks that is due to complex conditions.
But there are other metrics, he says. He says Scotland has the best performing A&E system in the UK.
Swinney implies he does not accept not SNP would lose right to demand independence referendum if it does not get majority
Q: Will you carry on calling for independence until you get the answer you want?
Swinney says he thinks Scotland will be better off with independence. But he is a democratic.
He says politics needs is politicians who set out what they believe and ask the public to judge.
A majority of MSPs favour independence, he says. But they can’t put that to the people.
Q: You say getting a majority of MPs in Scotland means you should get the chance to put the choice to the people. Does the opposite apply? If you don’t get 29 seats in Scotland (just over half), do you accept you won’t have a mandate?
Swinney says he wants people to vote for the SNP.
Bruce says that sounds like a no – he is not accepting not getting a majority means he has no right to demand a referendum.
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Swinney says one of the things that really worries him about politics now “is the polarisation of the debate”. He says he may have played a part in that. He wants to bring people together.
John Swinney takes questions next
John Swinney, the SNP leader and Scottish first minister, is up now.
Q: Given the problems the SNP has had, how will you project competence?
Swinney says he has recently taken over with two goals; to rebuild trust, and to make policy in the Scottish government to improve people’s lives. He is focusing on eradicating child poverty, on moving to net zero, on boosting the economy and on improving public services.
Q: What will the Lib Dems do for young people wanting to buy or rent a home?
Davey says the Lib Dems have plans to build more homes.
He says he met his wife through a Lib Dem housing policy working group.
Davey says he 'really hopes' people go to prison over Post Office Horizon scandal
Q: Should Paula Vennells, the former Post Office chief executive, face criminal proceedings?
Davey says serious mistakes were made.
He says the inquiry is underway. He does not want to prejudice that, but he goes on:
I really hope that people go to prison for this.
Q: Are you proud of your record as post office minister on the Horizon scandal?
Davey says this was “the biggest miscarriage of justice in our country’s history”.
He says he made two mistakes.
First, he initiatially refused to meet Alan Bates – although he subsequently did agree to meet him. He was the first post office minister do that.
And then, after he met Bates, he put his concerns to officials and to the Post Office. But he was given assurances that what Bates was saying was wrong.
He says he wishes he had seen through the lies.
Q: Would you go into coalition if you had to give up some policies?
Davey says he is focused on doing as well as he can in the election.
Bruce says he has already said he is unlikely to be PM. So he should be able to say what he might do after the election.
Davey repeats the point about focusing on the campaign.
Bruce points out that he is not answering. Davey says he has seen a lot of Lib Dem leaders; the ones focusing on what comes next after an election have not campaigned as well as the ones who haven’t.
Davey says the Lib Dems are looking “really good” to beat the Tories in Hazel Grove and in Cheadle, in the north-west.
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The next question is about the broken tuition fee promise. A student says people like her have debt worth hundreds of thousands. How can her generation trust the Lib Dems?
That gets a round of applause.
Davey says it was a difficult government to be in. “We did not win everything, and we lost that one,” he says.
He says he learned you should not promise what you can’t deliver. He claims the manifesto promises are now more realistic. That was the “big lesson” he learned.
Bruce says the broken tuition fees promise still comes up regularly during Question Time programmes.
Davey says the party was “severely punished” in 2015, and in the subsequent two elections. He lost his seat, he said.
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Davey says the two-child limit on benefits is “just wrong” and has to go.
Q: Are you trying to persuade people you can be PM?
Davey says he is being realistic.
It would be “challenging, given the polls”.
But he does not want to put a limit on his ambition.
Q: So is your manifesto just a wish list?
Referring to the extra GP policy, Davey says this is achieveable. There are people who are trained as GPS, but who cannot get a job because the money is not there to employ them.
Q: Is the manifesto a wish list?
No, says Davey. It is “absolutely a programme for government”.
As a minister in the coalition, he learnt you should not promise what you can’t deliver.
Q: Like cancelling tuition fees?
Indeed, says Davey.
He says he has spent time trying to rebuild trust.
The next question comes from Linda, who says Davey’s antics during the election campaigns (fun photo opportunities, often involving him getting wet) haven’t looked prime-ministerial.
Davey says he has been trying to grab attention.
But the stunts have had a serious purpose, he says. He says, when he fell in Windermere, it was to highlight the problem with sewage in water.
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Davey says he is 'not proud' of some of what Lib Dems did during coalition with Tories
A man in the audience says the Lib Dems lost credibility because they broke their promise on tuition fees and they supported austerity.
Davey says he is “not proud” of some of the votes the Lib Dems supported during the coalition. But he says they stopped George Osborne cutting welfare by £12bn.
UPDATE: Davey said:
It was very difficult governing with the Conservatives. We couldn’t get everything we wanted …
You either had to stay in and fight inside the government or leave. I think the easy choice for me would be to leave, vote against it, and tour the media studios and complain. The hard choice was to stay in, roll up my sleeves and really fight.
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The first question is from Alison, who says the Lib Dems will spend five times as much extra as Labour. Won’t you bankrupt the country?
No, says Davey.
He says the Lib Dems have costed their plans. Oil and gas companies could pay more. Big banks could pay more too. The Tories gave them tax cuts; reversing those would raise £4.3bn. And there should be a tax on digital media giants.
Q: You are promising an extra £28bn.
By the fifth year of the parliament, says Davey.
Bruce says she cannot see how some plans are funded, like compensation for Waspi women.
Davey says the Lib Dems will crack down on tax avoidance and evasion. And their plans are more credible in this area, because they would spend £1bn investing in HMRC.
Alison says the public finances aren’t a bottomless pit. Of course not, says Davey. But he says the public services need rescuing.
He is worried about children going to school hungry, he says. When the Lib Dems were in coalition, they insisted on the government introducing free school meals for infants. George Osborne was not happy. Now the Lib Dems want to go further, he says.
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Ed Davey takes questions in Question Time leaders' special
Fiona Bruce introduces the programme.
She starts by saying the audience reflects the political complexion of the country.
She introduces Ed Davey.
BBC responds to legal threat over Tory election date betting allegations story, saying publication 'clearly in public interest'
The BBC has responded to the statement put out earlier tonight by Laura Saunders, the Tory candidate being investigated by the Gambling Commission over an election date betting allegation. She said she was considering suing the BBC over the story, which it broke. In response, a BBC spokesperson said:
We are confident in our journalism. As Laura Saunders is a candidate standing for election, it is clearly in the public interest to report allegations made against her.
At the BBC event in York, Kevin Hollinrake, the business minister, is in the spin room on duty for the Tories. Asked about the Tory election date betting allegations, he said it was “absolutely wrong” if anyone placed bets using insider information, but he said an independent investigation was taking place and that should be allowed to run its course.
Ed Davey, the Lib Dem leader, has arrived for the Question Time leaders’ special. He is first up, at 8pm.
The climate crisis has not featured much during the election campaign, but Chris Skidmore may shift that a bit. As Pippa Crerar reports, Skidmore, a former Tory energy minister who also conducted a net zero review for the government, has announced that he is voting Labour because he thinks Rishi Sunak has been “siding with climate deniers” to politicise the energy transition.
Here is John Swinney, the SNP leader and Scottish first minister, arriving for the BBC Question Time leaders’ special in York. He is on at 8.30pm.
Sunak, Starmer, Swinney and Davey to face audience in BBC Question Time leaders' special
Good evening. Tonight we are getting the BBC’s Question Time leaders’ special. It starts at 8pm and it will feature the four main party leaders. They will get half an hour each taking questions from the audience in York and they will be appearing in this order: Ed Davey, the Lib Dem leader; John Swinney, the SNP leader; Keir Starmer, the Labour leader; and Rishi Sunak, the Conservative leader and PM. Fiona Bruce is in the chair.
This won’t have the drama of a head-to-head debate between Sunak and Starmer. There is just one more of those to go. It is on Wednesday next week, hosted by the BBC, with Mishal Husain presenting and acting as referee.
But Question Time is still a very tough gig, and it is a programme that regularly illustrates how members of the public can often ask questions that are more challenging, more aggressive, and better informed than the ones politicians normally get from journalists. And there is a long history of politicians coming unstuck here at election time. In his London Playbook briefing for Politico this morning, Dan Bloom recalled some examples.
This show has in the past produced some of Britain’s most memorable election moments, as politicians’ rehearsed lines crumble upon impact with public anger. It’s the one where Theresa May told a nurse there was there “isn’t a magic money tree” … Ed Miliband drew gasps for saying Labour didn’t spend too much (then tripped off the stage) … David Cameron refused to say where £10bn in welfare cuts would fall … and Tony Blair, well, he duelled a pipsqueak Richard Tice.
Tonight Sunak may face particular flak over the Tory election date betting allegations. Here is our story about this.
And here are the questions Labour says he must answer about the allegations.
We are not able to open the comments tonight. I’m sorry about that. But if you want to flag something up to me for my attention, do use X; I’ll see something addressed to @AndrewSparrow very quickly.
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