When Steve Cooper and Jamie Robinson met 22 years ago it must have seemed almost impossible that they would end up where they are today.
Cooper was managing Wrexham Under-16s with Robinson in the opposite dugout in charge of Shrewsbury Town Under-16s - a decent rivalry in that part of the world at first team level. Now Cooper is a Premier League manager with Robinson one of his first team coaches at Nottingham Forest having joined from the FA in the summer.
Both men have Liverpool connections going back to their formative years, Robinson as a player and Cooper as the head of their Academy. Both have come through and even formulated to a degree the modern FA style of coaching, especially in Robinson's case, but back at the turn of the millennium, the Premier League and the FA was a long way off.
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Robinson could see Cooper had something about though even from their very first meeting.
"Steve's a very good person. His work is built on sound principles," Robinson told the Garibaldi Red Podcast.
"What stands out to me is his outstanding coaching skills. He was absolutely passionate back then and still is now about developing players He's 100 percent enthused by the work as a coach and that comes through day in, day out. When I saw him at Liverpool I thought he had a real presence as Academy manager. There's something about him you can't put your finger on. He has humility and confidence in equal measure.
"He believes in the players and understands the game. I thought he had huge potential. Part of me is very proud of the journey he's made."
After leaving Liverpool without making a first team appearance, Robinson went on to play as a central defender for Barnsley, Carlisle, Torquay, Exeter and Chester before going into coaching, which was clearly his true calling.
"My career was sliding down into being a lower division journeyman. I thought from early on I'd be better as a coach. I don't know why," he said. "I offered empathy and understanding from a player's point of view which coaching didn't offer in that era.
"I enjoyed my career. I always felt I was the player in the dressing room who read books and listened to Radio Four, who was a bit different. In any culture you have to fit in to a certain degree. I felt coaching let me be my true self.
"I've spent 21 years coaching and coach developing. Liverpool was very much pass and move. I was privileged to spend six years there, two years as a schoolboy and four years full time. The Boot Room was still in operation. Ronnie Moran and Roy Evans would coach you about the first team the night before and tell you how Ian Rush would press from the front.
"The training was all with the ball. It's similar to what we do here. Some of Liverpool was fundamental to me becoming the person I am, but also it's about seeing other ways. Lower division football shows you can win in different ways, like soak up pressure. You saw last season Forest had to suffer at different times and be organised.
"The combination of cultures I've been in over the years as a player and with coaching, I feel privileged. League Two stuff is very similar to what we do now in a way as well, it's about focus and how you do the work."
Robinson joined Forest this summer after Steven Reid departed. He had spent 11 years with the FA as head of professional game coach development at St. George’s Park. He left a stable and important job to get back into the more cut throat world of club football, but felt Forest were too good to turn down having spent time meeting up with Cooper after games at the City Ground last season.
Now he works alongside fellow first team coaches Alan Tate and Andy Reid - there is no assistant manager. That is at least in part because Cooper does not stick to traditional hierarchies, but he does very much retain the last word in any debates.
"When I was here last year I used to get back to my car and think I'd like to go back there and see what they do tomorrow. My coaching philosophy is built on relationships. You have to know what makes people tick. Coming here was a chance to build relationships. It was a chance I couldn't turn down even though I'm proud of my work at the FA," Robinson said.
"In the modern era you need lots of pairs of hands around the players. Steve is aware of that. You need cohesion and people need to offer different things to different players. We're trying to piece that together and be forward thinking, then we play to our strengths.
"For myself, I'll work with the coaches a bit more on their practices and what they're trying to put together. Tatey is a fantastic defensive coach with a defensive mind. Reidy was a fantastic creative player and we want him to help players unlock their creative potential.
"There's a democratic management but Steve has the final say. It would be wrong for us not to give our opinion but you can't be outliers and have wacky ideas. There has to be a framework but we aren't yes men.
"The role of the head coach is to piece the information together. It's all on Steve's plate and he pieces that together really skilfully."
Cooper and his staff have already had their first experience of the ruthless world of the Premier League with the 2-0 defeat to Newcastle United, although they were already aware of how hard it would be. They are now working to learn lessons with the players - new and old - but the plan remains the same as they prepare for the much anticipated first home game of the season against West Ham on Sunday.
"The principle of how we play hasn't changed with new players. The squad was always going to evolve this summer. The challenge is to get new individuals to hit the ground running," he said.
"The clearer we are with them and the boys who are here the better - you want to accelerate that process as it does take time. The Championship has English principles at the heart of it.
"The Premier League is the world league that's based in this country. We're trying to recognise the league has a global feel and that allowed the boys from other countries to come in more comfortably.
"When I was playing in League Two, the left sided central defender was always going to put the ball into the channel. You'd not dream of playing in into central midfield. That's not how the game was played then, but it is how you play in the Premier League. You play through the thirds.
"It allows players we've brought in to hit ground running as we play progressive, attacking football ourselves. The first game was a brilliant learning curve. We're obviously disappointed with the result
"The goals came at tricky times and could be preventable but we're trying to be progressive and play out. We learned a lot and hopefully the players did. Newcastle put in an impressive performance. They caused us problems in the wide areas and there were lots of things we can improve on.
"The response this week has been really exciting building up to the first home game. That's going to be special. The attitude has been first class. We're not deviating from the plan and we're looking forward to Sunday. I'm excited personally. It's still a game of football with two goals and offsides. It's defined by what we do on the pitch.
"The motivation you get from the home crowd is a fuel we can use this season, but we're still looking at how we play. We have to use the emotions of the City Ground to fuel our performances."
You can watch the full interview here, or listen here.
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