This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, Manisha Pande, and Anand Vardhan are joined by diplomatic and foreign affairs expert Manoj Joshi.
The Pahalgam terror attack was at the centre of the discussion, with the panel exploring various aspects of the incident, including security lapses, recent developments, India’s immediate diplomatic response, its potential long-term impact, and possible future measures India might take to handle the situation.
Highlighting the severity of the attack, Manoj says, “This is happening for the first time in the past 20 years, where defenceless tourists have been attacked like this.” Remembering the Chittisinghpura Sikh massacre in Kashmir, Raman says, “The buildup of terror attacks has significantly changed over the past 24 years.”
In light of Pakistan Army Chief Asim Munir’s statements about the attack, Manoj comments, “There is an obvious split in the Pakistan Army after Munir’s appointment. The Pakistan Army has a tradition: whoever the chief is, everyone listens to him. But now, the situation is different. So, it’s a move to survive in one’s position.”
Referring to JD Vance’s presence in India during the attack, Anand points out, “Security should have been much stronger when foreign dignitaries were visiting India.”
The panel agrees that Kashmiri people are unanimously protesting against this terror attack. Manisha remarks, “An average Kashmiri today doesn’t see their future with Pakistan.”
Focusing on how world leaders are viewing this attack and what their standpoints might be in the evolving diplomatic relationship between India and Pakistan, Abhinandan says, “When two nuclear-armed states are on a standoff, it’s everybody’s business. It's the world's business.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
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Song: Socho Ke Jheelon Ka Sheher Ho
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements
00:02:35 – Headlines
00:07:57 – Chennai meet-up announcements
00:09:10 – Pahalgam terror attack
01:09:51 – Manoj Joshi’s recommendations
01:15:10 – Media coverage of Pahalgam attack
01:27:02 – Letters
01:43:22 – Recommendations
References
NL Sena - The impunity of India’s police
Campus Pe Crackdown: The assault on student activism in India
Log out to get 'de-radicalised': Kashmir to monitor social media and counsel radicalised youth
Recommendations
Manoj
The Lost Rebellion: Kashmir in the Nineties
Raman
Aar ya paar: Delhi’s escalation ladder with Pakistan, step by step
Responding to the terror attack in Pahalgam
Campus Pe Crackdown: The assault on student activism in India
Manisha
How mutton rogan josh and Kashmiri kindness saved a Kerala family from Pahalgam attack
The Unending Game:A Former R&AW Chief's Insights into Espionage
Anand
The Undying Light : A Personal History of Independent India
Abhinandan
Highway On My Podcast Ep 9: Wazwan at a wedding, and tasting your way through Kashmir’s breads
Apple and Meta attack 'unfair' €700m EU fines
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Ashish Anand.
Production assistance by intern Pragya Chakroborty.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry podcast, and you're listening to NL hafta
Abhinandan: I Welcome to another episode of NL hta. I'm ab uh, it has been a week which has, uh, been dominated and justifiably so by the terrorist attack in Jamun Kashmir, where 27 tourists were gunned down. Is that correct? 27, 26. Final official figure 26 is the official figure now. Uh, and a similar amount, I think 25 were rushed to the hospital.
Yeah. Who now at least appears out of danger. Yeah. Uh, four, uh, gunmen have been identified as the perpetrators of this crime. Uh, so most of this discussion will be dominated by that. Uh, before I get to the headlines and the discussion, I would like to just remind you that we have. Uh, a news [00:01:00] minute and news, news laundry set our project up.
Most of it has been topped up, but we still about to lag short. So do contribute because as you know, we do not take any advertising money. We are only sustained by the money that you give us through subscriptions and your support. Uh, in the studio with me today, our. In house talent. Anan. Hi Anand. Hello, Ram Kal.
Hi, JE. Who he's not wearing a news laundry cap. You must give Raman, sir, a news laundry cap after this. No, I have, I have, uh, Manisha Pande.
Manisha: Hello.
Abhinandan: And joining us is our guest today, Manu Joshi. Thank you, Manu for joining us. Uh, Mr. Joshi is a veteran journalist. He is now a distinguished fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, ORF.
As you recall, Samid has been here on the Hafta, as have many other guests from rf. He has been a journalist and he is had a longer distinguished career. He has been the political editor of the Times of India. He's been the views editor of Hindustan Times, the Defense Editor for India today, national Affairs Editor [00:02:00] of Mail today, the Washington Correspondent for the Financial Express, and a special correspondent for the Hindu.
So he's pretty much worked for every big news organization out there. He was also a member of India's National Security Council's Advisory Board from 2004 to 2006. In 2011, uh, Mr. Joshi was appointed by the government of India's cabinet committee on security to be member of high level national Task Force.
So we hope to get some insights from you, sir, on um, what has developed and what we can expect in the future. But before we do that, uh, Manisha will give us the headlines of the week.
Manisha: Yes. In one of the most horrifying terror attacks on civilians and Jamo and Kashmir, in two decades, 26 people were gunned down in Pegram on Tuesday.
This included 25 tourists and one Kashmiri local. The resistance front. A shadowy group of the banned Pakistan based UBA has claimed responsibility for the attack. The attack occurred days after Pakistani Army Chief General Assem Muni described Kashmir as a jugular vein of his country [00:03:00] and invoked the two nation theory.
A day later, India. Retorted by suspending the 1960 Indu Water Treaty canceling all visas granted to Pakistan nationals under the S scheme and shutting down the Atari Waga Bo, the Pakistani government meanwhile announced the closure of its airspace for all India owned or Indian operated airlines.
Amisha arrived in Sengar on Tuesday, uh pm odi Jada's trip speaking in Bihar yesterday. He said India will pursue Kashmir attackers to the ends of the earth. Aftermath of the Pega attack was that Kashmiri students in their were threatened by the Hindu AL to leave the city within 10 days. GMO and Kashmir Students Association also led there in Chand.
Kashmiri students were brutally attacked with sharp weapons in the hostels. There's been some videos that have come out in Punjab. I'm not sure which city, but. Students there standing up for Kashmir students saying that, okay, you cannot attack them. And we not let them leave. Raquesh Sharma, a senior journalist with Nik Jagran, was assaulted and chased for allegedly questioning [00:04:00] BGP leaders about a security lapse in Helga while covering a protest in Jnk Kawa videos of this out, you could really see him getting, you know, beaten up and he simply asked them that, you know, how long are you gonna keep burning Pakistani flags?
It's an easy way to escape accountability. What are you guys actually doing?
Abhinandan: And he was a jagran.
Manisha: Yeah.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Manisha: US Vice President Jerry Vance made his first visit to India this week. The visit was largely a private affair as Mr. Vance, his wife Usha, and three children tore Delhi gra. There was also dinner with the Prime Minister, which was televised days after VP Jadi Han hit out at the judiciary.
BJPP alleged that CJI, Sanjeev Khanna was responsible for all civil wars in the country, and that the Supreme Court of India was responsible for religious wars. The BJP has distanced itself from these remarks.
Abhinandan: Of course, the hunker has doubled down, but I must say Mr. The Hunker has really, uh, brought every office he's been in to distribute the [00:05:00] editorials by even a now very muted media on the ker the next day.
Were humiliating. I mean, if I was be embarrassed, uh, pretty much I think I read threes. No. If you were danka you
Manisha: wouldn't be. You just like, if I was, I
Abhinandan: wouldn't, I wouldn't give a shit, but yeah. Uh, I know the Times Express and there was one more.
Manisha: Times are a very strong leader in this. Yeah. Which,
Abhinandan: uh, all three.
But I mean, and even
Raman: Ible also advised him that he should not, uh, you know, look like sad with the ruling party. So, right. Yeah. They said that
Manisha: in Manpo, several homes were burned down into K villages in the Naga dominant KA Jong district. The Delhi HAI court ordered Patan founder Ram they to take down advertisements against Za, where he claimed that the drink was being used to orchestrate Shaba Jihad.
The HAI court said that the command by Ram, they was indefensible and it shocks the conscience of the court. The Marat Farah region in Mara recorded 269 cases of farmer [00:06:00] suicides between January and March, 2025 alone. This is government data 204. Such deaths were registered in the same period last year, so this is an uptick of three, 2% in suicides.
The police in Isha URA arrested two men in connection with the murder of a father and son in West Bengals, mu during violence that erupted, uh, in the work amendment protests. A suspended SHO in Ana was arrested on charges of custodial torture and police brutality against a raan local. He was detained on allegations of fraud in December.
In his complaint, the victim said I was made to drink chili solution and the same was injected into my private parts.
Abhinandan: In fact, it's a good time for us to remind you of this project that you see. There's a QR code on the screens. Uh, this is gonna investigate police brutality and police successes across the country, across at least five states.
We will be sending five reporters and about four producers. Uh, so blue contribute. You can scan the QR code or you [00:07:00] can click on the link in the show notes pillow. And do share this with other friends or relatives of yours who are, uh, you know, cribbing about there not being any media that does investigative journalism.
Uh, we are doing it, but we can only do it if you support us because we cannot do it with ad funds.
Manisha: The union government told the Supreme Court that its recent judgment on Tamal Nadu governor's Bill will not apply to Kerala, a bench of Justices PS Naima and Joy. Muah. Bci. Were hearing a petition filed by Kerala in 2023 against the governor's delay in acting on Bills.
Pope Francis, the head of the Catholic Church and the Vatican City died at the age of 88. On Monday, president MOU will leave for the Vatican City to attend Pope Francis' funeral
Abhinandan: and I found out he was a bouncer when he was young.
Manisha: Really?
Abhinandan: Interesting. Yeah.
Manisha: I don't know. He
Abhinandan: worked as a bouncer as a student at, at a bar, right?
Is that the headlines? Yeah. Uh, so before we go into the discussion, just wanna tell all our wonderful subscribers that we will be having a subscriber [00:08:00] meetup in Chennai. That's right in Chennai on the 3rd of May. Uh, our wonderful partner organization, Zin chief will be there as well. Shabi Rahad, and I believe Gehi will also be there.
Sure. Uh, we had a chat with her so you can meet. Danya and Sha and also get an idea of what all is planned going forward. The idea of these subscriber meetups is that we can actually interact with you face to face, get feedback inputs, which is what makes us, you know, better and better, so that we can ensure that what we cannot see from an objective eye or a dispatcher eye from inside, you can hold the mirror to us and tell us what we're doing right, what we're doing wrong.
So you have to be a subscriber. Uh, so if you want to attend the meetup, there are limited seats, so please send us an email at subscriptions@thenewsminute.com. I repeat subscriptions@thenewsminute.com. We'll send you the details of where the subscriber meetup is, what time it is. So do attend and give us honest feedback and meet other [00:09:00] subscribers.
It's a fantastic way to meet like-minded people. On that note, uh, thank you so much Mano for joining us. Uh, I'd like to, you know, explore this development from three or four angles. One of course is the media angle, which, uh, you know, Raman and Manha can comment on. But, uh, let me start with the two since you're also foreign policy expert.
One, um, in light of the speech of the Pakistan Army chief and I have seen much speculation that this is his way of staying on in power because he's due to retire. A bit like the Netanyahu kind of formula that so that I don't have to face justice. Let me continue the war.
Asim Munir: Our stance, government stance on Kashmir is absolutely clear.
It was our jaar win. It is our jaar. We'll not forget it, and we will not leave our Kashmiri brethren. In their heroic struggle, what they are waging [00:10:00] against the Indian occupation. And
Abhinandan: I mean, is that, um, a, a, a fair assessment? Is it a credible assessment or is it just coincidence? Uh, what does park really have to gain because it has a significant amount to lose?
Uh, and I'll just throw the third question right now, and you can take it in any order given Trump is the president and his entire boast was that if our president, you know, Ukraine, Russia would not have happened. Taiwan, China would not have happened. No one would've hit anyone. I basically can stop. So it would be egg on his face if there was a conflict to, to start.
Yet he is a close L of Modi. So do you think to save his face in the us Trump, he would put undue pressure? I. On India, do not retaliate. Those are the three, you know, broad, uh, angles that I'd like you to tell us about.
Manoj: Well, starting with the last, uh, point, uh, I'm not so sure that Trump is so [00:11:00] focused on this region.
He's got enough headaches of his own mini, he's right now Ukraine has made a, he's criticized Putin yesterday. Uh, he's looking at West Asia. Uh, I don't know if he's really concerned too much about what is happening in, uh, south Asia, so I don't think he's about to jump into the, the, the Fre as far as, uh, ASEM Uni is concerned.
The, uh, my own guess is that, you know, Pakistan's a, uh, divided polity, you know, it's a divided polity. The most popular man in Pakistan is in jail. Iran ka. Mm-hmm. Uh, the government, the civilian government there, Shaba, Sharif, and all the, they don't really have credibility. We all know who won the, who really won the election mm-hmm.
In Pakistan. And, uh, [00:12:00] the other more, um, dramatic thing that's happened has been they split in the Army. The General affairs Hamid, who used to be the former ISI chief has been, has been put in jail. He's been court marshaled, uh,
Abhinandan: on what allegation?
Manoj: I don't think it, I, I'm not quite sure about what are the specific thing, but the point is here was this man who was riding high, who was a potential chief.
And, uh, uni was appointed. And thereafter, uh, this, uh, Zaomi has been arrested. I think they'll have some charge or the other cooked up, meaning corruption or whatever it is. But, um, Hamid was s supposed to be close to, uh, to, uh, uh, Iran Khan.
Abhinandan: Right?
Manoj: And, uh, when Imran lost out, then he also lost out. But the point is that there is a split in the Army, meaning the, the, the Army normally is very united on who becomes its chief.
And the Pakistan army also [00:13:00] has the tradition that whoever becomes the chief, uh, everyone listens to him after that. Meaning say if you, if you recall, uh, when AV became chief, so when he did Cargill, the Pakistan army was behind him when he changed and he, uh, uh, uh, he and India started making peace over Kashmir.
The Pakistani army backed him. But the moment he left and General Kani came, Pakistan army was back to its old ways. Mm-hmm. And of course, right through there is this so-called deep state, uh, elements of the ISI and others who in some ways run a k an autonomous operation, uh, of the kind like the Bombay attack in 2008, the, the, uh, current, uh, attack that has taken place.
So I think when, um, uni and, and, and the other thing with Pakistan is [00:14:00] that it's in, uh, um, not in particularly good shape economically. So this is an ideal time to raise the flag of Kashmir and to raise the flag of Kashmir liberation movement to externalize the problem by creating a situation in Kashmir.
Abhinandan: But they have to be able to afford a conflict as well. Right. If they're so bad or, you know, in, there's such a bad situation economically.
Manoj: You see, the thing is that, uh, if you are in their, uh, look at it from, if you are in their boots Hmm. Uh, you're looking for options, you don't really care. Right? Meaning the, the, your, your point is how do I buy?
You just refer to Netanyahu and you, you know. Mm-hmm. So the, you don't really care. You, this thing is survival
Abhinandan: by time, not survival
Manoj: as a human being, but survival in your post.
Abhinandan: Right. So it, it is highly likely that, uh, you know, the general has acted unilaterally without really necessarily [00:15:00] having a buy-in from the political class.
Because there is no, no, no. Political clause. Doesn't matter. It doesn't. Right. So he can just,
Manoj: political classes doesn't matter in, uh, when it comes in Pakistan to the India policy
Abhinandan: mm-hmm.
Manoj: Uh, it is the Pakistan army.
Abhinandan: I
Manoj: see. So there's no question of acting unilaterally. And then this. Uh, we have been seeing since, uh, you see when General Bais was there.
Uh, 20 19, 20 20, 20 21. There were, uh, back channel talks between India and Pakistan. Meaning Doval met, uh, Pakistani official. There was a talks in London between an Indian intelligence official and, uh, general, uh, if K Patau, who was, uh, uh, a an ISI man. And there was also talk of Modi going to visit Pakistan and go to the temple of, [00:16:00] in, in Pakistan.
So all that is happening in that period
Abhinandan: and nothing like that happens anymore. Back chance? It's pretty much done. Well,
Manoj: I, I don't think so. I, I'm not in the know, in that sense, but nothing of that sort. But after uni has come, there has been a. Hard line.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Manoj: And we have seen a step up in Kashmir of the attacks.
You know, there've been attacks on security force, you know, all the, around in, in, uh, in, uh, PJA range, Rajo Ka, uh, Doda, uh, there'd been some attacks. And then last year after, uh, um, Omar was, uh, sworn in as chief minister. Mm-hmm. Uh, again, the attacks began in the valley. You know, there was an attack in that tunnel project mm-hmm.
That is going on. Eight or nine people who were killed.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Manoj: So, 8, 9, 6, 7, 4, 5 people kept on, you know, whether security forces or civilians [00:17:00] have been dying, uh, in incidents in Kashmir in the last three years. And now this is, uh, the culmination where. For the first time in 20 years, uh, tourists have been exclusively targeted.
Meaning they're defenseless,
Abhinandan: specifically just them. Right.
Manoj: See, they're completely defenseless and they're, uh, uh, incidentally, Helga was the place where in 1993, uh, six foreigners were kidnapped and out of them, uh, one escaped, uh, but the others have never been seen again.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Manoj: So they, they, they, it was a similar thing.
The foreigner, foreign tourists thought that, uh, that the conflict would not hit them and they could, you know, be in Helga and have a good time, but clearly not the, at that time, uh, decided that they wanted a, a big, [00:18:00] sensational, uh, event. So they, uh. Actually it was triggered probably by the arrest of, uh, uh, the, the, uh, j Mohammad, the chief Chief.
Abhinandan: So, um, you know, before I come back to it, I'd just like to go to the rest of the panel. One is, uh, Isha, you had spent some time in Kashmir during the election and that, you know, you were telling me about on ground, the sense of security or lack of security, and also what you saw, uh, that now the terrorists come from, not whether it used to come from earlier way more forestry region, which is harder to kind of patrol, and the army is not too keen to go the analyst, they have a lot more reinforcements.
Tell us about that.
Manisha: Yeah, so actually I was there in November and any journalist who's been to Jammu in Kashmir who's been reading about it or has sources there, speaks to journalists, there would not be, it's a shocking incident, but I was [00:19:00] not. Surprised because when we were there, there was a real sense of foreboding that I was at least picking up on because, and especially in Jamu, because now for two years there's been infiltration happening.
There was enough conversation about the fact that these guys are coming in from the p pja areas. That is where the new battleground is. Army had lost about 20 more than 20 soldiers in 2023 itself. So Army was suffering heavy casualties, and we were hearing about this in the pun, jori sector. There had been the SSI attack, which was a signaling of the fact that something is shifting in how terrorism was operating in that area while the valley was peaceful.
And we were Tom Toing tourist numbers. Jammu was quite uneasy. Azi was way into, you know, India. It was, again, an attack on tourists. It was broad daylight. It's the same resistance force that took accountability or, uh, that took responsibility for it. And what was, what people were saying were basically three things.
One, that these guys were infiltrating. It's [00:20:00] very difficult to catch them because they're using sophisticated technology that we are unable to tap in. So we are reaching where they were, but 10 days later. So they're using SMS technology, which cannot be tracked. They were using drones to drop weapons along the LOC, which again, cannot be tracked.
They weren't depending so much on local networks. So if you're not depending too much on local
Abhinandan: networks. So local informants are outta the, so it's very difficult
Manisha: to gather human intelligence on where they're moving. Um, the second thing was that, uh, so, and the area, it says the topography, it's dense jungles.
They were using guerrilla tactics. So it'll attack an army, convoy, go into the jungles. Following them all the way into jungles would mean falling into the dead trap.
Abhinandan: Possible casualties. So.
Manisha: And this was all being reported quite a bit and talked about in Jammu, especially after Azi attack, but not by the
Abhinandan: national media, clearly.
Manisha: Yeah. I think that now we are hearing that, you know, from sources in the government that this Helga Meadow was opened up without police permission. I don't know how 2000 [00:21:00] people can land up in a meadow if the police had not allowed for it.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Manisha: We know that the Prime Minister was gonna inaugurate a train, uh, just 10 days ago, and it was canceled because of bad weather.
But surely if the Prime Minister was supposed to be visiting this place, which is seeing such heightened activity, there would've been intelligence that they're picking up on. Something could have happened, and it's possible that the, you know, inauguration was canceled because there was a threat perception.
But questions have to be asked on should this have been a normal. Summer tourism season, when you know that these attacks have been happening in Jammu, there's been infiltration, there's a lot of unease about the fact that we are unable to detect these guys. They're like ghosts. They come, they go, we are unable to, you know, track where they're going, what they're doing.
One of the, uh, terrorists apparently has been around for two years, what we are hearing, and he's claimed, uh, you know, uh, uh, some other attack on a tunnel where they said that they were, again, claimed responsibility for that. So the fact that this was happening and you allowed a normal [00:22:00] tourism season, I think questions have to be asked about why there wasn't enough.
You know, at least if you can't track the guys and you know that you are, you know, you're having a human resource issue in tackling this, you could have tackled the trickling down of tourists at least. So, and this thing of that the meadow was open and the police didn't know, is just, it's very difficult to digest.
Abhinandan: I mean, you use it. How does
Manisha: a person, and I mean, how does the whole security app ERs and Pega not know that something has been opened? 2000 people are going there and you don't know.
Abhinandan: And also, like when eye witness said 25 minutes passed before any security arrived, that means for half an hour there was this happening and it was the pony guys who finally a alert, the CRP.
So, but you use the phrase questions should be asked, but the fact is, who's gonna ask those questions? In fact, I'm gonna get to that later, the media angle. But, uh, but I
Manoj: think there was, uh, you see there's, uh, one must look at this in perspective, uh, back in 2000. I'm not even going beyond that. In 2000, according to, uh, the figures of the South [00:23:00] Asia terrorism portal, uh, about.
1,025 people, civilians were killed in Kashmir. The last two or three years, it has been 30 per year, approximately 35, 36, 30 this incident, 27 have been killed. Mm-hmm. So what I'm saying is you look at it in perspective. So there was a sense of complacency from the thousand, it had come down to 30. Right.
Same thing if you look at security force killing casualties. Casualties. So that this has bred a sense of complacency
Abhinandan: out there. Right. I mean, if we were not to take, let's say 40 a window, and I just wanna come to Anan on the foreign policy angle, but you know, to your point, uh, between 2002 and 2015, I personally have visited a court this anecdotal, but I I mean the data on how much violence there was is public.
Uh, I have visited Kashmir at [00:24:00] least seven times, uh, and not just alone as a tourist. With a camera crew shooting shows for, you know, discovery Fox, traveler n Good Times that has to do travel shows. I have driven from Delhi to Jammu, to Kmi to Laak. Uh, I have driven to Helga and at no point did we ever think twice that should we go and shoot there with a camera crew with, you know, a unit.
And those days, cameras are not like iPhones. They were big. So it was quite a thumb jam when you'd go. One of our documentary films was screened at a film festival, uh, in Rinah and they had a film festival. So I'm not saying it was normal, but at at least between 2007 and 2015, I visited several times and we never thought twice that should we go, should we, you know, attract attention towards ourselves?
And we'd go by road. I. Uh, so, I mean, I don't know
Manoj: how, but that is the period in which you [00:25:00] have, if you actually look at the figures, the lowest comes down to about 20 11, 20 12.
Abhinandan: Right.
Manoj: Okay. The lowest figures of casualties of, I don't have the figures right here, but you can always look them up in s satp.org.
But, uh, lowest is about 2020 2007 was when the process began with Mohara to resolve the Kashmir dispute where we had agreed on the so-called four point formula. We were about to settle on that, which would've seen a So
Abhinandan: what, why do you explain there is this resurgence of
Manoj: the surg? Well, the point is, raf, when that four point formula never came, because Raf, uh, uh, mu the raf, um, was overthrown, if I may put it that way.
And Pakistan went back to Kani, the hardline, um, uh, chief of the Army. Mm-hmm. So, as I told you earlier that Pakistan army is quite, follows its chief and the chief under RAF [00:26:00] was making peace with India. Okay. But Kani Kani. So there was a shift. So that period, 2007, 2014, I would say thereafter that, you know, but in this period what happened was that you were having the so-called storm throwing incidents.
Abhinandan: Yeah. In fact, there's a documentary on that. It was regular after every NAMA would be the, so,
Manoj: so, so there was civil protests, but that itself was indicator of normalcy. Exactly. It was a valve release. Like you could, you could throw stones and not expect the, uh, security force to shoot back at you.
Abhinandan: In fact, I mean, that's an interesting point, that the, what they claimed was.
They had made Kashmir quiet, like you pointed out, was actually s the opposite was actually happening just because of the visual. Because they are, you know, management of, of information is such, it appears that everything is well, but not necessarily. But Anan, uh, you know, a couple of things. One is, um, ambassadors of five or six, uh, [00:27:00] countries, significant powers of the world were briefed.
Uh, yesterday and day before, uh, Amitha went and met the president of India, there were a bunch of such meetings. Now, in foreign policy terms, does that mean something significant has already been decided? What? I mean, 'cause I could be wrong, but I don't recall, you know, ambassadors of various countries being briefed about something.
Um, so what could that be? Should we assume that something significant is gonna happen, which is why this. Entire, uh, you know, pre-production is happening so that there is no surprises for any foreign country so they don't intervene. Or is this SOP, so we should not read too much into it.
Anand: It could be SOP also, uh, the exercise in letting countries know that, where we stand on this.
So, uh, a kind of messaging of, uh, the self-perception about the [00:28:00] incident that could be. And third, of course, uh, retaliatory kind of exercise could be in making. But, uh, I cannot guess that also, um, also to add to, uh, Mr. Jo's point, like, uh, the factors that might have saved, uh, uh. The supposed response of, uh, uni one could be also, uh, the diversion from the insurgency within Pakistan, the Stan Factor.
And so they have an insurgency themselves. Uh, them, they themselves have an insurgency in India and they're engineering it, so let us deflect it there. So that could also be one of the triggers. So, uh, if t proxy terrorism is, uh, as India sees an instrument of state policy in Pakistan, the Pakistan's way of seeing it has been, [00:29:00] um, in a fridge managed escalation.
Hmm. A kind of escalation that can be managed, uh, when two nuclear powers are there. And so do something which is below the threshold of, uh, very direct confrontation. Uh, but, uh, since the signals in ways that. Uh, uh, one could be the domestic for domestic consumption, and also in terms of, uh, military projection of a foreign of policy objective.
So that, uh, all these things, uh, might have worked. But, uh, uh, second on the security, uh, point of view is, uh, of course competency factor. Is there also, uh, eh, it's just common sense that, uh, if you are even very much prepared, the. [00:30:00] Subversive forces have to get lucky only one time. Mm. And if, even if you are ab boating, lot of attempts a thousand times, it may not be reported, but uh, uh, say violent incident like this would come to light to be, they have to get only one time lucky.
And the vigilance has to be a much, much, uh, like, uh, round the clock for months, for years, you look, look at, uh, say Israel and the idea of supposed to be the best security mechanism of a security state, and they didn't get lucky on the day. Mm-hmm. And they were, uh, their security was breached. So, uh, I think on ground, a lot of other factors matter.
Uh, third is that, uh, one factor, which might have come into many, uh. Discussions like [00:31:00] coinciding these kind of attacks when foreign dignitaries are visiting? Yeah. Just a day before Bill Clinton visited India in 2000, there was attack on Sikh six in Kmir also, uh, Madeline Albright with Tro uh, Talbert when she visited there was an attack.
Then the Kalu check, Kalu check is, I am getting so lot of, I think this could have been a trigger for greater preparedness is so if a high profile visit is there, JV is visiting maybe, uh, extra security measures and some preparedness could have been put in place. But
Abhinandan: after the specifics have emerged of the amount of time it took for, uh, you know, the forces to actually show up.
Um, while, you know, I take a point that they just have to get [00:32:00] lucky one time. Mm-hmm. But considering it's the most militarized zone in the world, uh, and I remember when all the times that I've gone and, you know, we've gone to shoot. In fact, we used to, after the shoot was over, we used to have dinner. We used to go for walks around.
I mean, it was not even like, we felt scared in the dark to take a walk. Um, whether it was Helga, whether it was, um, we've driven, you know, across also at night. Uh, in fact, I remember when we, uh, the second time we went, we came back from the dark side, uh, you know, it was dark and it, it didn't really bother us.
And now there is of, you know, there's a lot of, um, paranoia. Mm. But. If no uniform showed up even after 30 minutes, then that is elapse. Uh, and I, I, and I think, uh, sorry, I'll just come to you. I just wanna take Ram's view. Uh, if you were to see, 'cause you've covered crime, you've covered various aspects. The one person who has not been questioned while a small 8-year-old [00:33:00] boy has been questioned, journalists who have been questioned, have been questioned.
Uh, no one has the guts to question Amed Cha and Amed Cha's, uh, who was the Congress, uh, home minister Yeah. Who used to keep changing his clothes. Raj Patra Patel. You know, he used to be hold over calls on a regular basis.
Manisha: He used to keep changing.
Abhinandan: Uh, and, uh, I remember on Loop they played this video of his, where he didn't want to step in a puddle and he was avoiding the puddle and they played this on loop.
What do you call, uh,
I think am Shaz record has been dismal. I mean, look at what happened in Delhi. In the capitol when the Northeast riots happened. You know, if you were to investigate like we have, there is enough evidence to say there was no desire to stop it. Um,
Manisha: Manipur I think, I
Abhinandan: mean any other home minister with this kind of record would be hold over calls.
Mr. Amed Sha No has the guts to ask him a single question. So [00:34:00] from that perspective, you think he has just got a complete free run. And would um, would it be smart of Modi to haul him up because media, I'm gonna question him. Small outfits like ours will never get a chance to question him. So what accountability, what, what is his, uh, incentive to be a good home minister?
'cause he's been a useless home minister so far. He's good at, you know, instilling fear in the media. He is good at instilling fear in opposition. He's good at. Ah, these kind of, you know,
Manisha: cha yeah.
Abhinandan: This level horse trading is his forte. As a home minister, what is his incentive to be at all useful?
Raman: See, violence is not new to Kashmir.
And, uh, if it was the all time, so maybe the home minister will, you know, take the moral responsibility and [00:35:00] resign for this. But I don't squarely blame Amit Cha for whatever is happening in. Kashmir, just look, look at the buildup. I mean, I was there, uh, for the Indian Express in 2000. Mm-hmm. And my first ever visit to Kashmir where I was going to attend the meeting, uh, my editorial meeting and, uh, the chi chi happened.
Manisha: Mm-hmm.
Raman: So early in the morning when I am leaving, uh, for the airport, uh, there was a bond, uh, taxi could go to one point or two kilometer. I'm running towards the, uh, you know, airport just to catch the plane, uh, catch my flight. And then I land there who is still with Express and, uh, Javi, uh, Javi Khan, I think he was the photographer.
So the both of them had come at the airport to. Uh, saved me and I drove that, uh, j's car, Mati 800 directly. We went to Chi Sura. [00:36:00] So they were, I'm just telling you the buildup, uh, you know, how things are happening. I mean, that was my first, uh, I was witnessed to it. Uh, so Chi Sura, when we reached there, uh, there was a gua and there were about seven to 10 pirates within the vicinity burning.
And, uh, inside the gua, there is one retired IPS Sikh officer who was telling that, how it happened. You know, so again, uh, there were some people in the military at, uh, they used to come to the village, acclimatize themselves, you know, with the, uh, uh, people over there with the, uh, this thing, uh, children, they started playing cricket with them or whatever game they used to play.
So for a month or so, this is how these people used to come, and then the massacre happened,
Abhinandan: which is what Manisha is saying doesn't happen anymore. They don't kind of, so [00:37:00] the massacre happened. Hello? With the Lopez. So this is
Raman: what we, uh, witnessed. We saw, we heard, and uh, and then you see the, uh, buildup, uh, you know, in the past 24 years, again, four years.
Ago I went as a tourist, uh, to Kash me where, uh, I went to Re's Valley where hardly anybody used to go, you know? Um, now people had started going to that place and also you see, uh, whatever has happened. Uh, I mean, you three 70 was abolished. Uh, I was with DNA. Then we had done also a story based on government intelligence reports that.
S over 70% of the youths in, uh, in, uh, living in Kashmir. They have been radicalized Desai. She, my reporter, she had, it was a very, uh, credible story. We had quote it and everything. It was in DNA and we had done [00:38:00] that story. So, uh, if you just look at the buildup, uh, internally, we did not care so much, uh, you know, uh, uh, into the confidence building among the people.
Mm-hmm. So the locals were completely alienated? That's correct. Okay. And our response was, and that is something we've got from several people. Our response was handling, of course, we did lot of, uh, development also like this train, uh, thing. I mean this, uh, this, uh, bridge where the, you know, it's, it's a iconic bridge.
Uh. 3 59 meter, uh, you know, above the land.
Manisha: Mm.
Raman: Uh, it's a, it's a, it's a beautiful bridge, I was told, and which Prime Minister was going to integrate on 19th, but due to bad weather, he could not go over there. So, and we, uh, it has nine tunnels, uh, to reach Shih Nga, uh, QRA from Qra to Xga. So I, I mean, our development is happening.
Everything is happening, but local people were [00:39:00] completely alienated. So, so in this kind of scenario, of course there is a park spotted, uh, you know, uh, there is, which is happening and not happening now. It has been happening for
Abhinandan: decades.
Raman: For decades. So now, and you have eliminated these people. So the local, earlier there was, uh, during our time when we used to, uh, work in, uh, Jamo and Kashmir, it was, uh, you know, unwritten rule that, uh, the business class should not get affected.
So that is why the tourist. Those who come. So the economy, there may be some isolated incident, but never an attack like you know, what had happened in ra.
Abhinandan: So this can also isolate, basically this can also eliminate, I mean, whatever little sympathy there was with terrorists, because if you are RO Roti goes, then you know, ideology goes out the window when you have no way to, well that.
Manoj: But that is the surprising thing, as I told you, that for 20 years there has been, uh, no attack on tourists [00:40:00] and then suddenly an attack on tour. Because as you're pointing out that, uh, tourism is business in Kashmir, you know, that is huge dependency on tourism and the very fact that you have trashed tourism through this attack.
It means that you don't give a damn about the locals, which actually reinforces the point that this is a Pakistani thing. Mm-hmm. Not a local Kashmiri. Right. You know, because Pakistanis keep on saying this is a freedom movement, this, that, and that kind of stuff. Right. But I'm just saying, I'm saying that barring got those six foreigners business, which I told told you about nine three, no tourists have really been affected and to such
Manisha: a point, like point blank to your face in short pursuit, you know?
Yes. And this was
Manoj: deliberate, uh, uh, the, the foreign tourists were caught because the, we had just arrested Maza in 1993. There was four to five attempts to have mass released. And this F [00:41:00] foreigners, uh, kidnap was one of them. And then finally, of course, IC 8 1 4 was hijacked. Right. And we had to release him, you see?
But there were four or five attempts. You know, uh, that, uh, Ft. Delhi, um, financial Times guy, David Hago, his son was kidnapped in, uh, before that. So what I'm saying is that there, there has been a pattern there with regard to security. See, what I'd like to make one point for a long time, you know, when in this counterinsurgency thing you had a count what is called a counterinsurgency grid.
That is, that there, the, the whole state is divided into a grid, okay? And there are points, there are nodal points from which you should be able to rush to a point in very quick time. So the army had this grid, uh, there, uh, but 2020 has disrupted that grid
Manisha: after Galvan,
Manoj: you see, after the Galvan incident because India has moved a large number of forces to [00:42:00] Laak.
So this grid has been dis. Now this is something which you can. Check out, uh, locally whether the, the, this, this has had an impact because of this. There is no reason, uh, otherwise because with, with the grid system that you should, uh, uh, the, they, they, uh, they will, they themselves tell you that we can reach any incident point within so much time.
There is what's called the QR t, you know, the quick reaction teams can, uh, uh, so
Abhinandan: that's not what it used to be.
Manoj: So obviously if it took 25, 30 minutes for, uh, security forces to reach the meadow
Abhinandan: mm-hmm.
Manoj: After the incident, that means there were nowhere there in sight. So that they had no, no system was operating.
There was no system in operation because of complacency. This is what I pointed out to you. There was a sense of complacency that tourists will not be attacked because they had not been attacked. All the more reason the minister should be questioned.
Manisha: In fact, uh, no. No.
Manoj: That, no doubt that the, uh, home minister, because don't forget, [00:43:00] he had, he had held a security meeting just a couple of days before that.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Manisha: In fact, Vita saying of the Hindu has just put out that, so the near A-C-R-P-F camp was seven kilometers away, so it took them time. Army is saying that there was no specific input and we were, as government policy told to stay off tourist areas. So they were told to stay off tour area because I guess the focus is so much on pictures of normalcy that you don't wanna see people.
Um, and also must freak them
Abhinandan: out.
Manisha: Freak them out also. But if there was such a infiltration happening, and if we've already seen incidents in Jammu this, this decision also has to be questioned that why was the Army asked to stay off tourist areas? Why was there no input, especially on the back of the Prime Minister's visit?
One thing I wanted to add was that I have never seen such an outpouring of. Public protests in Kashmir after a terror incident That's new. I don't think it's orchestrated. I think it's as genuine one because I think people are genuinely shook [00:44:00] by the fact that people were shot in the head point blank.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. Just the gly nature of it. The gly
Manisha: nature of it. But I think also there is increasingly, when you speak to Kashmiris, there is no charm or attraction to the idea of merging with Pakistan. And you pick that up very clearly because they see what has happened with Toran. Can they see what's happening with that country?
I don't think an average Kashmiri today looks at their future with Pakistan. That may not translate to an immediate affinity with India because they also get to hear how some BJP ministers said that now you can marry Kashmiri girls after the abrogation.
Abhinandan: Yeah. That, but the economic activities, I mean, just to give you an idea that Pakistan's GDP is one 10th of India.
Yeah. And the per capita is half of us so,
Manisha: so stories of uh, uh, tourists saying how they were helped by locals, I think. Despite the media getting visibly uncomfortable with it. I mean, at least on some channels, when eyewitnesses were coming and saying that, you know, locals really helped us, they were just shut up.
Okay, thank you. Bye. Can you tell us what the terrorists did? [00:45:00] So, but in a lot of tourists have come out and said that we were really helped. We are thankful to the people. Yeah. I've seen a lot
Abhinandan: of that, but very,
Manisha: a lot of, yeah, a lot of protests. Very spontaneous protests of people coming out and saying, we reject this violence.
We don't support it. We are not for it.
Abhinandan: In fact, I, I mean, I I do wanna point out that Marketly and DVS coverage, Shiva rule was there. Uh, I think it was the most fair amongst everybody. You know, he was speaking to people who were talking about the economic activity. They want to risk there, they want normalcy.
It wasn't like the typical times and the other of
Manisha: A A BP was doing a p Yeah, a
Abhinandan: p was doing the same thing. But Manu just, you know, I just wanna kind of again, re-ask you this one point, because I, I personally, I'd be a little surprised if that wasn't part of the, uh, you know, scenario planning. I mean, I dunno if India does it, like, you know, what are the outcomes possible, you know, modeling that they make, like, famously when, uh, Taiwan, China standoff for that, it's peak.
I think before [00:46:00] Trump came, during the Biden era, I had heard, uh, a foreign policy podcast where, uh, they had done some war gaming that if. Um, you know, China were to 'cause red carried out. Those, those, um, exercises very close to Taiwan if they were to actually gotten it off or something. How long before, let's say, to escalate a nuclear war, how long before?
So various scenario planning was done. Um, same thing with Russia, Ukraine. If the US were to actually, you know, put boots on the ground or, you know, how long before it becomes a nuclear war, do we, our government also do such scenario planning and, uh, it's not, you know, especially, you know, senior thinkers and journalists like yourselves would not probably do it in life as a profession, but there's an inevitability to speculating of what the outcome is because that is part of, I guess, what think tanks do.
So I'd just like to ask you that. Do you think, uh. Uh, [00:47:00] retaliatory action, whatever it may be, is inevitable. One, and I'd like to, you know, reemphasize the point that can India really discount what America thinks? Because all the times this has happened in the past, right? From Ragan, this time onwards to Cargill.
Two more recently, when, you know, India struck, we know that when there are two nuclear armed states on a standoff, it is everybody's business. It's the world's business. So even if it doesn't make sense for Trump as a personality to give a damn about what's happening here politically, it cannot be ignored.
I mean, it, there will be some kind of pressure saying, guys, back off. You know, if we take action, it's fine. You guys should not take action. What do you have to say on those aspects?
Manoj: Well, you see, uh, look at the, uh, action the government has taken. They have suspended the, uh, Inus Waters treaty. Mm-hmm. Now, the interesting thing about that is that India does not have the means, the technical means to divert waters or to block waters at present.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Manoj: [00:48:00] So, so that this is, in a sense, a kind of a slow moving retaliation.
Asim Munir: Okay?
Manoj: Now, the point is that if you are Pakistan,
Abhinandan: so once the ball isn't, we don't have the capacity to stop the water. We don't have dams or
Manisha: reservoir. We don't have the, so we've just
Abhinandan: said, we'll, stop whatever. We can't
Manoj: No, no. What I'm saying is that we, we have announced it, but the point is that if we build over the next 10 years, we can build dams, canals, et cetera.
Nothing immediately can happen. Yeah. Yeah. So what I'm saying is nothing immediately can, uh, can happen. Uh, maybe you there, you know, most of the, what you are permitted in the treaty is what is called run of the River. Uh, uh, those four, uh, three Western rivers, uh, indu, chenab, the water are promised to Pakistan.
80% of the Indu waters are promised to Pakistan, 20 to India, 20% to India. Okay, that is the Ravi Ledge and bi. Now, uh. What you can do in those western rivers is make run of the river [00:49:00] dams. Meaning the river can't be blocked, but you can generate hydroelectricity. But the point is, instead of run of the river, if you just raise those dams a bit, you'll be impounding a bit of water.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Manoj: Which be water, which can't go to Pakistan. Now there's a limit bit to what you can do because otherwise you'll end up flooding, uh, Kashmir itself.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Manoj: You see, because if you, if you damage hillam, you know how the lum operates out there, the water have to be stored somewhere. So, so the, but the point is, even if you reduce in one point, you take a, make a canal and take the water away down some, somewhere else, that's that much water less for Pakistan.
Abhinandan: But this doesn't have the deterrence or the optics of a strike.
Manoj: Yeah, it doesn't have a strike. But the point is that it's a slow strangulation. Sure. You see? But would that be acceptable
Abhinandan: politically mo? No, it would be too slow.
Manoj: See, what I'm trying to say is that the, uh, what you have done is to place your hands around the next of Pakistan.
Okay. But that itself is quite, [00:50:00] uh, an allowing thing. Meaning if I'm the guy who, someone's put his hand around my neck, I'll worry. Pakistan is worried. So they've given a, a, a nuclear threat. In response, they've said that we will respond in a full spectrum. That those words, full spectrum for any strategic thing, means that they, the nuclear option is on the table up to the nuclear option, uh, is uh, on the table.
Now, the point that I like to make is that this is the, uh, this is the first move in the chess game. Other moves can be there. You can use, uh, you can use diplomacy to get the United States, Saudi Arabia, UAE who are also friends of Pakistan to tell Pakistan guys, the Indians are serious. Uh, you better do something.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Manoj: See, so I'm just saying that this is the, that's the diplomatic maneuver. Now, you can also simultaneously be planning a military thing. Now, what would the military thing be? The problem is that the last two military strikes were not particularly effective.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Manoj: The Bala code strike, we [00:51:00] missed, uh, the target, uh, the so, so-called surgical strikes, uh, were too shallow, you know, to make
Abhinandan: an impact.
And Aand incident didn't. Exactly.
Manoj: So I'm saying the, uh, it was, was you missed the target. That's the most important thing. And, uh, then you, in the class, you lost an aircraft, you know, so, so the military thing is not an easy one. Mm-hmm. You see, uh, the Pakistan military, um, uh, from the defensive point of view, it's quite strong.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Manoj: They, they have, uh, um, um, along the border, et cetera. They, but you can, yes. Lob always lober missile. And then be
Abhinandan: satisfied with it for the longest time, you know, firing mortar shells was a regular function. Yeah. Now a cease cease.
Manoj: Technically there's a ceasefire. Yeah. Right. And that remains on the line of control.
But what I'm saying is that is hardly, uh, a deterrent.
Abhinandan: Right. See, how
Manoj: do you deter, how do you, uh, the, your challenge is how do [00:52:00] you deter Pakistan? And here they've got sufficient canon port to keep on sending them into Kashmir. Sure. And creating this mayhem. I mean, I, I guess the
Manisha: final aim has to be to dismantle Kar.
I mean, can that happen? I think a, a combination and
Abhinandan: Muhammad, I think it can that
Manisha: happen?
Abhinandan: I think it has to a combination of identifying where significant offices of these outfits are, those offices
Manoj: don't matter.
Abhinandan: And being able to, for the optics, yeah. Have to take those out. You bomb those, you know, we've destroyed the headquarter, but the
Manoj: optics, if you can, law.
You know, some where the headquarters is concerned, that's quite possible. Or in papo, if you know where, um, the half Moba, sorry, uh, uh, Hamad, the chief is, uh, is, is, is, uh, residing. But you know, that you need, uh, the kind of intelligence and continuous intelligence with the United States
Abhinandan: has, has, and whether they'll share it with you or not is a question that, and I think, [00:53:00] I think this is the time to prove how close Mr.
Modi is with the international community. See, you look, you look
Manoj: at how they killed, uh, Zhi. Mm-hmm. Literally, he was out on his first floor balcony. Yeah. He opened the balcony and a bomb came to him. Right? Yeah. You see, I mean, I, I think this, or they killed, uh, KA soleimani, uh, you know, the Iranian, uh, general.
Yeah. In fact, it was
Abhinandan: inside a building in India apartment, right? Yeah. Yeah. It was that, that specific, I mean, of course this is the time, the proof is in the pudding that, you know, Mr. Modi's friendship and rapport with all these people. But on one thing, you know, anan, if you would come in historically, you know what Manu spoke about?
Strangulating. Now, if we were to actually break this down into specifics, that impacts a large chunk of the population of Pakistan historically, has such sanctions which actually impact the population of a nation, been a deterrent. To the people who are [00:54:00] governing. In fact, in countries like Pakistan ruling, because North Korea, all the sanctions in the world doesn't impact Kim Jong's lifestyle.
So none of his decisions, no sanction makes any difference. Iran, you know, the public and staff to death. Yeah, but it's not like it's a democracy that they'll vote out, you know, the ola, the OLAS decisions doesn't matter. You can sanction them. You can starve the population of death. So this strangulation, it's not like the generals will stop drinking scotch whiskey and the finest wine.
I mean, I don't believe in war democracies like Pakistan. Even India is far from perfect democracy. I, I don't see any historical evidence that such actions make any difference to the decision making of those in power because it doesn't impact their lives.
Manoj: See here the thing is that, uh, you look at the threat, the threat to terminate the treaty, you know.
80% of Pakistani agriculture is dependent on [00:55:00] waters that come from India. They're drinking water supplies. I wouldn't be surprised if this summer, and like all summers, there's a reduction in, uh, uh, in flow right now because of the glacier melt. Uh, the water, the high, uh, the water start coming down in this summer.
If there are water shortages in Pakistan, uh, you're gonna have people saying that the Indians have done it. Sure. The Indians are doing, they just blame you with respect. Uh, Indians are doing something. So yes, a certain pressure does develop out of this. So I'm saying this is just one, one instrument, but one instrument if it carried to the logical end, meaning, uh, if, if India says that, okay, we have begun in these three projects, we are raising the, the dam, uh, the size of the dam by a meter,
Abhinandan: right?
Manoj: See that itself And, and Pakistan's problem is that they have, uh, LAR Dam and the Mangala Dam. Two dams, but they are not even able to [00:56:00] impound more than 10% of the waters that they're supposed to get. They just don't have the capacity to store the water.
Abhinandan: Right. So, so
Manoj: there's, so what I'm saying, it's a, potentially, it's a very, uh, lethal kind of a thing.
But as I said, the, the, the As, and you rightly pointed out, uh, are the people who make the decisions. Because unless you be able to hit them and you can't, India can't hit, meaning we can't take out asem mug, uh, like the Americans took out, uh, QIM Soleimani. That's, that's an impossible, uh, situation. But, uh, I think it'll have to be a combination of, uh, military, uh, threat, military action maybe, but small level skirmish strike.
As well as diplomacy. I think, you know, one of the most successful things, and I'll give you this example, Mumbai 2008.
Abhinandan: Right
Manoj: now we know that uh, half his mum say Lucky Rahman la [00:57:00] uh, various other people and the ma the actual guy who planned all this m hmm. Uh, were involved in this in Pakistan. Uh, two ISI, officer Samir Lee and Major Bal, uh, we got hold of Kassab.
The only guy we managed to lay our hands on was Kasab. So he was tried and hung. Hmm. Now when it comes to these other fellows in Pakistan, we were shouting from 2008 down to 2020. Nothing happened then came what is called the Financial Action Task Force and the Financial Action Task Force threatened to put Pakistan in a blacklist.
Under that blacklist, Pakistan would stop getting loans from the IMF and they would, they would be trashed in the world, uh, financial markets. So suddenly the Pakistanis tried half his mom say, for money laundering, not for the Mumbai thing. Mm-hmm. For money laundering and sent into [00:58:00] 30 years. Suddenly they found Z Rehman LA and they sentenced him to five years.
They found, and of all wonders, SAR Mir is the guy who may be an ISI officer who was the actual planner. The Pakistanis had claimed for years that he was dead or he is not missing. Suddenly they found him and they have, uh, sentenced him to jail. I don't know for how many years. Yeah. But again, and that
Manisha: sentencing, does it mean anything because they're all operating?
No. So what,
Manoj: what I'm trying to say, what I'm trying to say is that through this diplomatic. Financial process. They were hit. They, they, so if we can manage, if we can, uh, if our diplomacy is effective, we say that we are now a rising power. We have got lots of clout. We, uh, Mr. Modi is a friend of Putin. He is a friend of, uh, of, uh, Trump.
He's a friend of, uh,
Manisha: and Shanger has laser eyes that can, and, uh,
Manoj: the trend of Saudi king, MBS got award from the ua Crown Prince. [00:59:00] So what I'm saying is we do have sufficient diplomatic clout. Do we have the diplomatic tactics, which can pin down Pakistan in such a way like the FATF, you know, like FA, as I said, FATF may not have been entirely satisfactory, meaning those guys should have been hung.
But the point is the fact that the pakistanians were forced to acknowledges some action happened. Okay, whatever miss has happened and it has happened through diplomatic means.
Abhinandan: Alright, so a, you know, if you could come in just one thing, there's no way to audit this, but I really like, at some stage there be an audit that under Mr.
Sha, my assumption is he knows more about what's happening in the newsrooms around the country and in opposition party offices. Um, whether it is through his intelligence gatherings, whether it's through Pegasus or whatever else, then he knows what's happened on the borders because I don't think there is any incentive I repeat for them to perform at that level.
If your intention is only to stay in power, your entire [01:00:00] resources are. You know, in, let me use my intelligence gathering that which person can be broken from Ena, which person can be broken from this Sena. That is your intelligence gathering. There is no other intelligence, intelligence gathering that's happening.
But you know, on the war gaming and the scenario planning, uh, do you, you don't like to speculate anyone, but give it a shot. Do you think it's inevitable that we have to strike? There is no option, whether it's politically or even just as a deterrence to Pakistan. This the slow strangulation. I get the point it can have a significant impact in the long run, but as an immediate deterrence, something like this.
I'd be surprised if we were just to sit and wait for the, you know, water, you know, scarcity to hit
Anand: the government. Now in power, it prides itself on its credentials or say its advertisement of its credentials on national security. So it'll take, uh, it more, uh, seriously to at least project what it is doing.[01:01:00]
So, uh, having said that, I come back to the point Mr. Josie was making. There can be a combination of other forms of deterrence, like, uh, the approach that Pakistan takes of, uh, uh, managed ex escalation. Uh, and that's a thing that you have to do with an, uh, if you are a nuclear power, uh. Like what India did that we are putting in this water, uh, treaty in events.
So Pakistan's response is that, uh, Pakistan's response is that it'll, uh, it's, it, it'll be taken as an act of war if the, uh, water doesn't flow. Okay. Putting it in events. Uh. But we'll see if it actually put into practice and water does not flow, we will take it as an act of war. That is what Pakistan foreign office has said yesterday.
So, uh, obviously it, it has a kind of deterrence for Pakistani [01:02:00] establishment means they're taking it seriously. Whether if, uh, in the popular imagination of the people here, that that would be also be a, uh, concern. Is that enough concern? Concern for the comment here. Yeah. Second is that, uh, isolating Pakistan diplomatically?
That is, that, that is a, a tougher challenge, uh, because there are a group of countries with which, uh, even Pakistan can manage to convince its case. Third, uh. Would be of course, and the, um, say, uh, that though there is not a significant trade between the two countries, but uh, India has already done it that severing all the trade ties.
So, uh, that is the third, uh, veterans. But, uh, yes, you are right that these two, uh, the trade one as well as on the DU one, it does not have the same effect [01:03:00] on say, uh, public perception that a direct military demonstration of a NCE does. So, uh, uh, we will have to see what combination the government, uh, resorts to, but it will have, and the world powers would be more interested.
I am coming back to the phrase to see that it's a managed escalation.
Abhinandan: Right. Um, so before I come to Rama, I know Mr. Joshi has to go, you know, any closing thoughts? 'cause you know, we've kept you for an hour, uh, already. Um, any closing, you know, views on how this could possibly be handled or whether foreign policy outcomes or the local, you know, national defense outcomes of this.
'cause one person who has been missing from the headlines has been a defense minister on this issue. It's all about am has
Manoj: threatened also. Yesterday, there were
Manisha: headlines that he's also
Raman: has also threatened. [01:04:00]
Manoj: See, the, the thing is that, uh, we are in a, in a, in a, in a, uh, particular situation, the relative power between US and Pakistan, you know, when you talk to others, I also did this, uh, this kind of a thing with some foreign channels yesterday.
And, uh, there is always a tendency to equate India and Pakistan. We are unable to get away from that equation and to try to convince the world that it is India, which I keep telling people that from 1980s onwards, we have been suffering from terrorism, which is coming from across the border in Pakistan.
Manisha: Hmm.
Manoj: It's one thing today to say that, uh, you know, Kashmir, there's the freedom movement,
Abhinandan: but
Manoj: what hap what are there in Stan?
Abhinandan: Right.
Manoj: You know, so, so what I'm trying to say is that somehow or the other, uh, the Pakistanians have got a free pass. Uh, they got a free pass when in the, during that Stan thing, because of, uh, the Afghanistan, [01:05:00] the West needed them from a, for Afghanistan.
Uh, so then it, then it has come to Kashmir again, Afghanistan, uh, continued. So Musharaff played them well, uh, in, in, in that case. So the, the thing is that there is a challenge before us, a security challenge. Uh. Because of what is happening. You know, we can't, uh, sit, sit by ideally when these kind of things happen.
When a massacre happens, you have to retaliate. Now, we have been, mind you, they have been covert retaliation. We know that people have been killed in Pakistan. So it's not that, uh, our people are not doing something, they are doing something, but it is probably not sufficient.
Abhinandan: Right?
Manoj: Meaning if that those shootings reach a higher level.
For example, the Israelis knocked down, knocked out, uh, Mosin Ade, who was the top, uh, nuclear scientists by that AI operated machine gun. Mm. Uh, you know, in this thing. And then I [01:06:00] told you, uh, about, uh, Kam Soleimani. So what I'm saying is that there has to be a combination, meaning we have, we have, we are faced with a security problem.
So there has to be a combination of covert action, overt action, as well as diplomacy. How to combine. This. Now, this is where when you say home minister, what's he doing? So yes, it's his job, meaning it's, it's his job. Or you want to say that the home minister sheds all this and lets Mr. Al handle it, but Mr.
Al is okay. Uh, uh, in tactical handling, uh, Mr. Al doesn't have a reputation for strategic handling. You need, you need someone to handle this at a strategic level and also a sense of urgency in the sense for too long, you know, our strategy under when Sing was there, our strategy was that we would reduce the level of violence.
Which he managed. The, the level of violence did come down. So there [01:07:00] were, there are two strategies. One is that you can't have an absolute, uh, sure break The Pakistan can't certainly overnight become, uh, a very, uh, good state and not support terrorism. So there is a strategy in which the, the, the levels of violence comes around slowly.
You see what has happened now is that there is no policy happening. You know that since 2020 there been, yeah, I sort of
Abhinandan: thought through policy there is what, what is your desired outcome and what you're doing to achieve that desired outcome. See,
Manoj: see, 2020 when we, uh, after that 2019, uh, a drawing down of ation of Article three 70, those were egregious actions.
They were not, they were only, they were there only for the party.
Abhinandan: Yeah. It was basically more
Manoj: pandering to your local base rather than any party level. Party had from, from 1950 taken up the issue of, uh, article three 70. That three 70 has created a problem, has created a problem, meaning Kashmir was under police rule for, [01:08:00] has been under police rule for five years now.
Uh, increasing police rule. So when you look at all these different elements, you find failure, you find failure of government policy, uh, in Kashmir. You find failure of government policy in dealing with these issues being till now. Uh, there was a sense of complacency that you, you, uh, uh, saw the last year's action, you know, rii killings, uh, various, uh, um, what Manisha was pointing out to the different, uh, actions that the, the, the Pakistani, um, infiltrators were taking.
The, the, the nature, the quality of the infiltrators has also gone up enormously. And the very fact that they, it's very technology. Technology
Abhinandan: that they have access to and how they operate.
Manoj: Yes. Because nowadays, you know, you can't, uh, they've been using, for example, local, um, internet for communications.
Mm-hmm. See, we don't, we are unable to catch them. For example, these guys in Gram, why haven't we caught them till now? [01:09:00] How, how many days have elapsed? You can't GPS them. You can't, you see? No, no. I'm just saying that, uh, you launch a manhunt, there's supposed to have been six people. Yeah. Uh, involved. And this is an area where security forces have been operating for years.
Right. So it's not exactly, and we are nowhere close to country. Even when you talk of jungles in punch and all that, security forces have been operating there. They should be. My father was in punch in 1947. You know, we, we, we were fighting in the jungles of punch. So, so the, the thing is that in this case, uh, the combination has not worked.
Meaning you've not been able to combine covert action, uh, diplomacy. And kinetic action, uh, effectively.
Abhinandan: Right. Um, so before we were to thank you and say goodbye, we'd like you to give a recommendation to our viewers and listeners on something that could enrich their lives or make them more aware. It could be about anything, not necessarily about Kashmir or Pakistan.
Manoj: I [01:10:00] can, uh, say even in the issue that happened, you know, uh, I'm not, uh, uh, sure whether, you know, that I've, uh, uh, authored a study of the first 10 years of Kashmir militancy I see. Which was published by Penguin in 99, and it was republished in 2019. Mm-hmm. So I've looked at Kashmir in, uh, militancy very, in great detail.
Abhinandan: Right. So the book, um, Manu just talking about, it's called a Lost Rebellion, Kashmir in the Nineties. You can read that, you'll get a very informed view, but I must say Manoj, what you are saying, that this is the way to deal with it, is very, um. Uh, it, it's very different from the other foreign policy experts that we have heard, like Soheil say Ami uh,
you know, I, I,
Manisha: he's like,
Abhinandan: I, how am I in the same, and they been watching the media. I don't even know half those jokers who appear. Uh, they are just sitting on channel and saying, go, forget human rights. Who gives a shit about due process? Give them. So, the good thing is that at least in [01:11:00] the popular media, the kind of, uh, experts that we get, uh, the ha the set AMI variety, uh, maybe Mr.
Charles sends to them more, but I'm hoping, uh, voices like, uh, Eno, Josh's, uh. Reach more people to understand how this thing works.
Manoj: Well, you know, I've, I cited Martin Van Krel, who's an Israeli military historian, very well known. Mm. And he has said, uh, uh, he looked at various insurgencies and how they were handled, and he basically pointed out to the difference between the way the British handled, uh, Northern Ireland and the Syrians handle the, uh, Islamist militancy in homes, uh, when, when, uh, Assad destroyed the whole town.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Manoj: So the point is, you want complete end to the insurgency. You've got to go the right way. It's a slow way, but it's, it's, you've got to go the right way. You have to win the hearts and minds of people. Why is it that phrase, hearts and mind constantly comes up.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But it's been ridiculed enough.
Anyway, we, we will talk about [01:12:00] that some other time. And thank you so much for joining us, man. It's been a pleasure. Uh, before we move forward, just wanna remind you of our subscriber meet on the third of main Chennai. Write to us at subscriptions@thenewsman.com. Daniel. Uh, and we are having a subscriber meet in Chennai on May 3rd.
So, uh, Rama, you were saying, uh, you know, something about the Meadows being open for a while. It's not a new development or so No,
Raman: no. I, uh, had gone four years ago. Uh, it was open.
Manisha: Yeah. A lot of people are saying they were open in March. I had open,
Abhinandan: so it's not a new thing. No,
Manisha: no, no. Like this whole narrative that they were open, especially by a tour operator without permission, doesn't seem to be actually what's happening on the ground.
Raman: In fact, we were also's very common
Manisha: picnic spot.
Raman: Base camp. Base camp also, you know, for Amman. It starts somewhere, you know, from that place. Mm, no, I, I mean, since you were talking about Ango Swami, so screamer, ah, the media screamer in chief. Mm-hmm. Uh, is going to [01:13:00] deliver a keynote address at Stanford this week.
What aami? And, uh, he, uh, there are many other people who have gone to Stanford, I have just come to know. And, uh, the ticket to this function is one $50. If you want to attend, Mr. Will be delivering the keynote address. So, uh, no, I, what I wanted to say, uh, about this, that episodic military, uh, you know, uh, ance will not work.
We have done it in the past also. Yeah. If, if something happens, we, the knee jerk responses. Attacks, but it works
Abhinandan: for him for domestic politics. Ah, yeah. It did. It, I mean, let's face it in his second term. Yes. Yeah. 2019
Manisha: could not have been those numbers. Without those, those numbers, without the
Abhinandan: surgical strike is what basically made Mr.
Movie popular. So,
Raman: so maybe it's, maybe they can do again, do the similar kind of exercise already. Uh, yeah. [01:14:00] You know, the TV media and even the newspaper, it has come out that the, uh, Indian Air Force is, uh, you know, is active. Mm. Our Navy is active, so, uh, but, but I think if you look at the, uh, you know, the water treaty, which has been, um, you know, put in the veins at the moment is, uh, I mean the immediate effect is, uh, they have been sharing the water flow.
Hmm. The chart and everything. So India is going to stop that completely.
Manisha: Right.
Raman: Okay. So that is also, uh, it acts like a deference. Maybe it'll take a little time. And as you were talking about whether Trump is going to jump in, I think this is a slow, uh, but from approach, uh, you know, as a deference, and I think it should work in a, in, in a time when the nuclear, there are two nuclear powers, uh, you know, they are, they are in conflict.
I mean,
Abhinandan: so, so [01:15:00] historically it has always, it's the world's problem. It's new. Two nuclear powers are in conflict. It's the world's problem. It's not just US and Pakistan problem. Yes, I think that's given, yes. But when it comes to how the media has been, you know, kind of. I was the, the day this happened. I was watching TV at night.
Luckily, the advantage of being the CEO of News laundries back when we had started, I used to watch news almost every day, ever since we have Manisha and her team, I don't watch it at all. You just need to watch their, I just watch them. But I did watch it the night of, uh, you know, when this actually happened and I was blown away by the commentators who, like, who are these morons?
I mean, you know, having morons as Zas is bad enough. These so-called experts, some random, you know, B grid film director from Bombay telling us how we should react. So he'll say, telling us how we should react.
TV News Mashup: This has been going on and on and on, and Pakistan is not going to change its stripes. It is a rogue country.
Rogue countries have to be treated [01:16:00] in a rish manner. You cannot use the windows of diplomacy and decency for absolute rascal nations like Pakistan is
situation.
Of control.
You'll now listen to the screams.[01:17:00]
You'll pray to God and Allah,
and we want to teach you a lesson. And if you are putting allegation that we are war mongering, yes, so be it. We want it.
Abhinandan: Before we wind up, any commentary on, on how the media covered this? You were saying something before? No,
Raman: the best was, uh, I was watching, uh, this news 18 mm. Where the, the, I think the main anchor, who comes at nine?
I forget names. Nine o'clock, uh, you know the primetime who gives on a news eight in English? Hmm. Jacob was there. He said something. He asked a question to Ravi. Uh, uh, this, uh, Shanka. So, so both of them were competing. You know who is more aggressive?
Abhinandan: Who? Rahan.
Raman: He was a panelist? No, were [01:18:00] four anchoring.
There were three anchors. Okay. So three guys, which Raul was one of them. So he, Jacob asked something and Raul, I mean, they were competing with each other. So Raul Shankar, he says the question is. What happened, what was happening before that. So all of a sudden he reminds, I mean, if he's talking about, they did not take any, I mean, uh, you know, the, the s this intelligence failure, he wasn't aware.
So I can see very clearly he just prolonged that talk and then very silently he put in there is an inte, there was intelligence failure also. So, but very, that's embarra.
Abhinandan: It's so, and I think this is, this is an, uh, instance where I think the public is seeing through
Manisha: Yeah.
Abhinandan: Uh, the media. Because in the past, even people who normally are, you know, very pro government, I've, I've, I've, at least the people I've spoken to around the groups I am on, they're very disgusted with how the media is, uh, completely giving a free pass.
And it would be okay if they [01:19:00] agree a free pass, how they're questioning others, whether it is journalists, whether it is or the Supreme Court. Will the Supreme Court answer has Erna gone mad? What does the Supreme Court do with this?
Manisha: No what, uh, Mr. Joshi was saying that the two strikes were a failure. Now we know that that one we missed and the other was not deep enough.
But look at the celebration around that. That was, that is literally the BJP centerpiece. Every election rally we've gone, there's not a single rally that doesn't make a mention of surgical strikes. Mm-hmm. And unfortunately, BJP is a party that, you know, to solve something like Kashmir or to even figure out what our response to Pakistan should be, you really need people who can think solidly in national interest.
And the BJP timing, again, shows that it can only think in party interest. Mm-hmm. So every coverage that we have seen even after this, the channels are home ministers rushing to this has never happened before.
This is the kind of coverage that is happening around Amisha [01:20:00] simply landing up at a place where he should be there. Yeah. I mean it's the worst terror attack that we've seen in 20 years, and you can tell that all this is managed. We know now. I mean the focus is simply on and which is, I'm very cynical about what may come out of this.
The focus is mostly on just saying what an action mode, Modi and am I have shown us. Yeah. They can do something small, it can be celebrated. Like it's the best thing that no one has ever done. Just
Abhinandan: already nothing has happened. And you see the, yeah, the, the images that they put mo the kayak, you know, or whatever Pakistan like it is insane.
It is shameful. It is just so disgraceful. And you
Manisha: write as a record of the home minister. It should really be looked in, has
Abhinandan: such a sea grade home minister record. Not just this, you just see his stint as home money poor. No one can question him. He has no interest to perform. Why will he perform? No one can question him inside the party or outside the party.
Even inside the party, there's no pressure on which earlier government, soon as home minister, they [01:21:00] would be politicking within the party. Right now, within the party, there's politicing how they can cut each other other than Mr.
Illusion that that's not happening. But he has no incentive to perform.
Manisha: And when you look at the BJP, the one thing that I do think they could take credit on or at least build on is the fact that. When was the last time you saw Kash erupt in protests against what has happened? A T attacks,
Raman: no, sorry, I, but you
Manisha: can build on that.
But you see what the BGP guys are doing in mainland? Mm-hmm. They're upset with anyone saying that the locals helped. Mm. They're trolling anyone who's saying that, you know, people, locals came out. They want that anonymity.
Abhinandan: The,
Manisha: and the rhetoric, again, all over TV channels is to just set aside what Na Kumar at least said, that on a debate, we have to set aside these things because we must set aside decency and, you know, it's impossible to be decent if you have to condemn data.
So I'm saying that even to build on that fact that, you know, locals have come out in support and locals have very [01:22:00] categorically said that we distance ourselves from what is happening. We are against Pakistan. A party would at least think in national interest to build on that. But here, a party is just focused on how we can now use this to, you know, score hindutva points in mainland India.
Raman: Any eruption doesn't mean. That there was no dissent. I think people have become more, uh, alienated. So that is that, that so far that is for nothing. For their credit, I think their internal policy has failed massively. And as this happens, so they have a national narrative of the Commonwealth. Uh, so it fits.
Now, I mean this, this incident fits into their narrative.
Narrative. My, my, my society, they had a. Me, uh, meeting yesterday at eight o'clock, at nine o'clock, and so a few people gathered and Barat or Pakistan. So it's, it, it is already happening. So, so that, I mean, obviously, I mean this incident and for
Manisha: two days, news channels also only focus. See the [01:23:00] fact that Hindus were targeted, the names were asked, they were asked to recite Alma.
This is the first immediate fact that we know of what has happened. Mm-hmm. You report it and then you also go on to ask questions about how the attack happened. None of that has happened. It says that is the're stuck on just the most obvious fact of the attack intelligence failure. Nobody is questioning.
Raman: Yeah. There's nothing about nobody's questioning.
Abhinandan: Uh,
Anand: you want any closing thoughts before you more the males anan? No, I am not sure, uh, with Mr. Jo's assessment that allies strikes were failure. Hmm. So, because the objectives may be multiple, it's not only that this optics also optics, no optics, not only popular democratic political optics, but across the border also sewing, decisiveness.
We were coming to a point where, uh, uh, before, uh, say around 2010, 11, the indecision to use the military option was very clear. [01:24:00] So it was coming from a point of indecision that also sells whether you are prepared to use fossil, you are successful or not, but, uh, but you're prepared to use it. But, but it, it sends a signal to Pakistan that to military option is not off the table.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, and also it not India means a combination of. Uh, um, factors always is there. You also do something to flex your military muscle. That wa that's why even what is called armed peace means, that's why, uh, so many countries have armies. So, uh, uh, second, uh, point is that I wanted to make it that, uh, f uh, just a day before, uh, this incident, uh, uh, there was a piece which has been, uh, generally a general understanding among foreign policy observers.
And ra a foreign, uh, former foreign secretary [01:25:00] made a speech at George Washington University, which was, uh, put together as a piece in the Hindu and see. Said that, uh, her point was that we are now seeing everything through China Prism. So, uh, even Pakistan is off the radar means, uh, there seems to be and everything.
So we are in a situation of a two front military hostility. Her peace was on China, but she, uh, her, uh, uh, point was, uh. About that competitive coexistence with China, the challenges and the whole thing. But, uh, uh, just this, also, this compency is an opposite of that. I mean, so we, and he, in, in fact, ency pointed out that the Galvan incident, the moving of troops, and this also, uh, now this is a challenge that we have to come to.
We [01:26:00] have to come to terms with how to manage this two front hostility. But also there's a shortfall of about a hundred thousand Jovan
Abhinandan: plus officer. What,
Manisha: uh, made a point of Anab show?
Abhinandan: Okay. He did, he
Manisha: really like slammed into, I mean, and
Abhinandan: that is so, I mean, the coordination, like I said, I think if there are only two people are powerful in the government and one of them is always trying to figure out the best angle for his mugshot and traveling abroad and showing how close he's and the other ones.
Intelligence is directed at journalists and opposition parties. No one else is doing anything, right? I mean, no other cab minister is empowered to do anything. So even the
Raman: press conference are not, press photographers are not, uh, supposed to take those mugshots. So he has a battery of, uh, eight to 10 photographers hired.
They're photographer. They're the ones who take it and they will send you, so they run it as a, either as a a NI, I mean, whichever agency they want. Mm-hmm. Or it comes from the pi,
Abhinandan: so, right. Uh, [01:27:00] on that note, we will just get to the emails. As you know, we have a new system of taking a feedback. We wise, we have a roster where one person on the hafta curates four emails, and the rest that are collected will be read out together in a special feedback email episode.
That is gonna be next week, every sixth week. That'll happen. This week's emails have been curated by. Kial. You can mail us at podcasts@newszealand.com, at repeat podcasts@newszealand.com. Your mail will definitely be read. Please keep it below one 50 words because otherwise it just becomes impossible for us to read as many as we would like.
Uh, and, uh, it will be addressed in every, the sixth episode, but four emails will be addressed in at least every episode. So I will read out the ones that Rama has curated this week,
Manisha: or I'll read them up.
Abhinandan: Yeah, so Manish shall read out the ones that Rama has curated this week,
Manisha: so we shall be reading out the letters.
But just to make a note of this, we also received [01:28:00] letters from N 7 4 7 Pran Ker, the Pan, and one anonymous letter, which we'll read out in the Hafta Letters episode, which we'll release in the next two weeks. Next to next week, it'll release. I think we'll record it next week. We'll, next. So Harnick sang, uh, says I enjoy all podcasts like ab, then I consume most of my content through podcasts.
YouTube is only for nuisance and tip. In last half letter special one subscriber complained that he gets annoyed when Sudi Monal brings cast in every discussion in South Central. I feel we privilege upper cast. People don't want to think about caste angle in India even more. These said, people are talking about casts want to decide?
India, divide India, I think. Mm-hmm. This upper caste mentality is very disturbing. Caste is Indian society's reality and we should discuss it whenever we can. Even NL team don't give due regard about caste issues. I would request NL two make a special cast slash DLI issues desk, which document report discuss about these issues.
NL should have a weekly podcast dedicated to just these issues. Hindu Sana [01:29:00] project should also work on stories of how DLI voices. Being ignored, suppressed, mutilated today.
Abhinandan: Why? Noted. Although with the news better and News Laundry becoming more or less one entity, we can assume that so that those, you know, what's your ism is a part of the news laundry.
Then the fact is hosted on our YouTube channel and our podcast as well.
Manisha: Asha says, dear Team News Laundry. I appreciate the work you all are doing. I first found News Laundry through awful and awesome. Then started consuming Hafta nuisance and recently reporters without orders. Now my weekly routine includes hafta awful and awesome, Tiffany and South Central.
As I always, I'm always interested in political news, but Miss South Coverage Church, but only when Anan is on the panel. Initially, I didn't like Anand's views, maybe because they were different, but over time I started appreciating how they gave me a perspective I hadn't considered. So if time permits anan, please be on church more often.
Best wishes to AB Manisha and entire team keep up the great
Abhinandan: one. Thank you.
Manisha: Uncle [01:30:00] Lan says I greatly appreciate N L's recent work on air pollution in Delhi, PJP R'S Hindutva project and police atrocities across all states in India. Thanks to NL for finally reading my last letter. I have further views on aans stake on BJP and Hindu politics, which he has hardly denounced.
He grew up, I. He's saying, I grew up in Calcutta. I studied most of the kings and rulers from the medieval India. I read about Shivaji and his heroics while mentioning Bki Chandra chat. Anan mentioned that Bki was writing against Muslim rules, especially the history is more gray. His writings could well be interpreted as against any foreign rule, be it Mugga or British.
It should be read in context of the period when Indian nationalism was growing. Though AAN said orange's rule was the most violent in the world history, as per his favorite historian, he's ignoring Ashoka's, ghastly and violent conquest of Kalinga, which eventually changed. Ashoka has AAN heard of Belgium Monarch Leopold Two's barbaric brutality in Congo.
There are many like Hitler's tale, et cetera, from 20th Century itself. Coming to [01:31:00] HHA 5 28 Annu Chori, the CEO of Samal has consistently been partisan. Public servant people have seen him carrying Mace during Numan Genti. It's not the first time he's been in controversies. Policeman is clearly trying to appease his political masters.
AAN must not defend the CEO again. Uh, and it, it shows that he supports Himan BGP Sport. Your support for the CEI have also opinion about the 66 devotees talking to ku and how's a lot of, uh, pointed questions that a Sure
Abhinandan: aan this how a, this meal male question Ron AAN defense, but this has violated the word counts of that is as much as we, but
Manisha: I don't think you said he's a, or you didn't say or was the most violent, you said even from his contemporary, he's violent.
I mean,
Anand: uh, I think, uh, he's determined to see me in a particular light, which he's entitled to. But, uh, I am just, uh, clarifying some of the points that he has made. So, uh, about M Chan [01:32:00] Chatterji, uh, first, so, uh, before coming, uh, to the specific of that reference, uh. Uh, we, you should know that Han Chatter written in 1882 is a about, uh, it's a central plot, uh, is, uh, about the Sanhi rebellion of, uh, late 18th century.
And the rebellion was of Hindu monks as well as Muslim esthetics, the against, against the East India company that, uh, the operations taxation and other things. So, um, this is, there is a collaboration, but the best, uh, the East India company and the Muslim rulers collaborating with them, they are, uh, somehow in the novel, uh, sub they are [01:33:00] take fused together.
So, uh, Han Ter, uh. English version and the original Bengali version are different. This I came to know when, uh, around 2018 I had gone to K Qta to, uh, on a teaching assignment, and some of my colleagues there were talking among themselves that the Bengali version of, uh, Han Ji Anan is very different from what English translation is.
So, but I forgot. Then I, uh, some years later read this comment of open new chat, the, uh, novelist and the former bureaucrat and in Open Magazine in fourth, on fourth July, 2018. This is, uh, saying. And he's very unam unambiguous about his reading experience of the Bengali version of, uh, [01:34:00] an and the English version.
And he's saying reading Cheto has an in Bengali has proved to be a real eyeopener. Cji says it is so right-wing and virulently anti-Muslim. I realized that it's translation I had read earlier in English. Each time there is an anti-Muslim reference has been changed to anti,
Manisha: oh,
Anand: this is one of the things I would have never got if I had just read it in English.
Uh, let us say there are thousands of people who will read the English translation only and think this is a great anti British anti imperialist work. He's one of the founding fathers of Bengali literature, but in this work he's so anti Muslim. So this is Upmanu Ji. So I don't, uh, know Bengal Bengali, uh, [01:35:00] language.
I can't read. But, uh, from responsible people who have read it in the two versions, he's a credible voice. So that is what I get. Sure. So that there is difference between his Bengali version and the English version. So that is my point. That's how I came to that conclusion. If it is, it is from secondary sources, but that's how I came.
Fair enough. Second? No, it's said long. Oh, there others also. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, he says that I didn't talk about Ashok because Oke was not being talked about. The point was about Ori that said the most violent, uh, no, most violent. I didn't say that. Is that he is putting Ah, I don't
Manisha: think you satisfied
Anand: putting words in my mouth.
I didn't quantify violence of other also a, so we were not talking about, we were talking about orang. JI if I, I would have talked about a So you I would have been accused of what about? Mm. So, and that's why, and uh, I am not accusing him of what about, because I [01:36:00] think people who talk about what about don't understand it.
Uh, it is sometimes very silly, but sometimes it is very sincere also. And it's about context. Yeah, on context. Because what the battery is. Uh, related to fairness, which is a very foundational element of this, I think context is very
Abhinandan: important. Important. So anything is not. What about So
Anand: Asok, so many readers think that why Aoke is in, in the national emblem and the founding fathers of our republic put him there.
He was violent and this, but the arc of Asok as an emperor is very different from Beca. Um, after Kalinga, what he became in, uh, Nero's view of him, uh, in discovery of India is more in light of, uh, uh, he has not written it, but you can get it. And also he. Eh, agreed with putting him on the national emblem is of what Plateau thought as a [01:37:00] philosopher king like, uh, um, a, a king who, who had, in fact, we were talking about India, Pakistan in Tacan Treaty, uh, uh, uh, du Shatri on Raja's recommendation put an a soan element.
And he said that all India radio, the state radio there then and the Pakistan radio had propaganda war. So he said the soan edits of propaganda that spread the kind of propaganda, which talks about the mutual harmony between enemies. So, uh, and uh, in 1972, similar agreement, Indra Gandhi took that element of a, so on his edits had put all the.
Um, na uh, say figures of the people who he had captured in Coalinga who were injured on Edex. And that [01:38:00] became one of the foundational elements for exchange of prisoner of war. Interesting. So, uh, in Rag Gandhi put the Shoan element in that. So I think, yes, he was violent, but Naru fastened him in, in terms of a platonic philosophy king.
And, uh, and that, uh, CEOI didn't defend, you didn't get the contest. I would, is in fact, uh, I said that it was, his accent was illegal. You, you listen to it again. Um, there are other points also, but for the, I think time,
Manisha: so Mahe says, I tend to agree with the views of almost everyone on nta, but these days I agree the most with Suto.
Particularly because of its caste angle in every ratio. I think gender equality has more relevance for lower income population. Lack of employment has more relevance to marginalized caste population. I see most of my friends support charities with service specific cast or religious population. I do recall being not allowed to watch a movie with my friend in.[01:39:00]
12th standard as he's from a lower cast or lower income have a request to suto. Can you suggest few charities which work towards upliftment of the community? Request to the entire panel, please revisit the scene from Article 15 movie where his junior policeman tries to explain about the difference sub casts.
Yeah, I remember Scene, we can send this mail to Suto and he can maybe write to you with recommendations on where you can. Yes,
Abhinandan: we'll do that. We'll share this with
Manisha: Suto. TI has written a 5 47 word mail, which we shall not read all of. Uh, but to paraphrase it, she's first said that on the cleanliness question, she said that governments, be it local counselors or CIA, need to employ people to clean every day along with cleaning gear.
She says that one of the reasons why we have this problem is because of caste. We don't think it's our job to clean, and we think that people who are supposed to clean are dirty because they clean. So this prejudice, uh. Has come in the way of job creation and cleaning gear. She said that AB and then uh, should be there and half, that's a great opportunity for [01:40:00] other people to educate him and people who have uncle views like him because he's quite open to criticism.
So through you we can educate other uncles is a suggestion. Yeah,
Abhinandan: but I just wanna point out one thing. Na, I agree and I'm open to criticism. In fact I love talking about, but on on the gender issue, I've got a lot of male, a lot of feedback. I agree with some, but I completely disagree with a lot of views.
But the one big difference, and I've also not pointed this out in long ago podcast, the starting point of a conversation where I come to is that I could be wrong about this. I have yet to hear that from, uh, the extreme woke gender justice warriors. There is not even the assumption that I may be wrong or this is an evolving conversation.
We don't know everything yet. I. So on that I am quite firm. I think, um, you know, I, I've read many editorials after the UK Supreme Court's Judgment, uh, which I don't see how it could have been anything else. Uh, but on that, some of the comments I've read [01:41:00] make me wonder at, um, you know, gen Z or post Gen Z, um, their approach to, you know, discussing outcomes, possibilities, social customs, et cetera.
And when the x expect chromosome, actually I know quite a bit about it. I've, uh, suggested a podcast about five years ago. Call Goads, uh, which went into this case in great depth over six episodes. Uh, do check it out.
Manisha: And she says about work life balance. The aim of such discussions should be to make life easier and happier and not to be more productive.
The assumption is that people don't wanna work. I want you to think where this assumption comes from. Uh, the next one is from Sandeep who's followed the a hundred word limit, which is very good. Yes,
Abhinandan: 150 word. Well done. Sandeep.
Manisha: Hi team. Great work. Love to hear Uba fan of his podcast. I don't have questions, at least regarding politics.
You would know in a minute when you read my question. I used to consume a lot of [01:42:00] news, but I'm sane now. I agree with you and empathize with you. Although I have a question about the term double engine. My question goes, why It's called double engine. For some reason I relate engine with railway engine. If it has to be double engine, then these engines have to be at each end, and that would actually stall the movement.
Unless it's a goodin service train. Okay. You want to wa on why it's double engine? The other
Raman: way of looking at the politics, double engine politics. Yeah, I, I mean double engine. I think
Manisha: service
Raman: double,
Abhinandan: but it's also got to do with aircraft, right? There's aircraft have, you know, single engine, double engine, multiple engines, soap.
It's the, the, the more engine the aircraft has, the more powerful it is. 'cause each engine, like you've seen those aircraft which have, you know, two of those big engines and the, those that have four and they have 1, 2, 3, 4, and one at the back. So you can have multiple engines. I think that's where it comes from.
Raman: Most VIPs do not [01:43:00] like to travel by helicopter with single engine, right? So, so is on, there are many accidents in the past.
Abhinandan: On that note, uh, we will get, please continue to write emails. We will be just taking all the emails that I've collected. I think they must have hit 60 by now or longer Next week.
Those will be out. Uh, before we wind up, let's get the recommendations for the week. You wanna go first? Anan?
Anand: Yes. Uh, this is a book I am recommending, a book, which I have recently read, and I have also, I have also written a review of the book. Uh, that is Gopal Christian Gandhi's Undying Light, and, uh, mm, for, uh, for three, four regions.
I am recommending this book first, that, uh, it is an interesting kind of memoir, un unusual in the way that he has, uh, tried to. Find points of interest intersection between his own life and the national [01:44:00] memory, and written about it also because he had a front row seat to see the dramatist and the India story unfold after independence.
He has a formidable lineage as a grandson of Ma Ma Gandhi, as well as the maternal grandson of Charri. The, uh, first Indian Governor General. So, uh, he talks about things that, and he has a formidable repository of archives. The photographs. As a young boy, he went to places where and heard conversations, which can be the envy of any historian.
So he has, uh, put it. In a third because of his very balanced look at it, because, uh, the kind of people he looked at in those times, uh, [01:45:00] and he admired also, he shows his admiration, but with lot of criticism, whether it's Nru, his own grandfather, Gandhi Patel, everyone, he takes a critical look at One exception perhaps is because he has too much respect for him is s and,
Raman: uh, bunch of articles on, uh, the Kashmir issue.
The, uh, you know, incident, uh, si. Raja Mo has written today in, uh, the Indian Express, uh, has written a very good piece and, uh, am in, uh, the Hindu. He also wrote a. Uh, very good piece of saying this, uh, you know, how we can handle this issue effectively. And also the fact that, uh, India, Pakistan, uh, you know, people have this tendency to compare maybe in the criminal aspect, otherwise there is no comparison.
[01:46:00] India is, uh, you know, uh, 10 times more, uh, you know, economically powerful than, than, than than, uh, Pakistan. India is also diplomatically much more known, um, uh, better known, uh, you know, uh, than Pakistan in the world. So, so we can effect very effectively use our image to, uh, you know, handle this crisis. And, uh.
The second, uh, recommendation is we have released a 1 30, 35 minutes documentary yesterday. Uh, this, which is about the protest culture, which is diminishing in the universities. So, uh, we, our intention is to go all over India and find out what is happening in these universities, which used to be, uh, you know, the ground for budding politicians.
Uh, so, so we have taken, uh, you know, uh, Delhi as a [01:47:00] case study at this point of time, and anal has done a wonderful job with this. It's a beautiful documentary, so I would recommend. Okay,
Abhinandan: Manisha.
Manisha: So, um, one book since Kashmir Pakistan Intelligence gathering is in, is in the news Vikram sos book, the Unending Game.
He's a former raw chief. I think for those of you interested in how Pakistan Army operates, also how intelligence gathering within India operates. It's a good book to pick up. Uh, there's a piece by Nu Indian Express, the Abyss. I thought that is a must read and there's, I wanted to make a note of this piece that the newsman has put out on a family from Kerala who is traveling in Kashmir, and how Muan Rogan Josh saved their lives.
Uh, so they were at the base, you know, from where you trek up to the meadow and they were at a restaurant where they were supposed to be very popular for Rogan Josh. But the one that they got was really bad. It had a lot of salt and just bones, so they didn't touch it. And the restaurant owner was a bit [01:48:00] worried that, why aren't you eating it?
They said it's not good. So they were really kind of embarrassed and they said, no, you have to wait here and we'll cook filled. So they cooked for them and as a result they delayed their ascent to the meadow and they ate. And while, you know, within five minutes of them going up, they saw these hundred ponies just coming down, which at least sounds very, they thought it was a landslide till they then figured the road been an attack.
They went back home. So I thought it was, it was always crazy to see how. Things unfold Sometimes. Stories,
Raman: in fact. Crazy story. There's one professor who, uh, recited the Almar. Recited the Kama.
Manisha: Yeah. Bengali. And, and got and didn't, and they didn't shoot him.
Abhinandan: So just wanna acknowledge one subscriber had, uh, said, sent feedback that, uh, we should not recommend our own stories.
I've sharing that feedback with the team, but I will not, but this is a New Minutes story. Tell them what they should or shouldn't do. What is, but I'm just saying. Uh, feedback taken. [01:49:00] Um, I'm not sure everyone would agree. Sorry ma'am.
Manisha: We can, yeah, I
Abhinandan: agree. So in fact, I'm, I mean the
Manisha: documentary is a must walk that drum's talking about.
Must watch.
Abhinandan: I'm recommending something we've done. Uh, one I'm recommending, I think it's very important because it's got lost in justifiably in the news of the week. Is the EU $700 million fine, 700 million euro fine on meta and apple. Um, you should read the details of that. It's not a big fine considering, uh, there was a $2.6 billion fine I think a few years ago.
Uh, but it's important on, um, how this entire ecosystem and the regulatory framework around digital evolves and we'd all be impacted by it significantly. So I think this is something that as regular news consumers, we should be aware of because we consume so much digitally and this government especially uses regulation rather than for the benefit of the citizens for their benefit.
So I think we should. Uh, be aware of what's happening in the parts [01:50:00] of the world. The second is we had started a podcast during Covid when there was lockdown. We just thought it would be a great way to make us subscribers travel. Uh, when travel was stopped, Rocky Mayur, Prashant and myself were doing, uh, a podcast called Highway On my podcast where we were retelling stories of our eight years of making travel shows, traveling around India.
I want to, uh, suggest the Kashmir episode, uh, so you get an idea of just how chill it was when we shot there and how it's changed so dramatically. On that note, I'd like to thank a wonderful sound, recordist Anil, and also our producers, Ashish and Pali. Thank you. Those of you who have subscribed, those of you who haven't.
Here's a QR code. Do consider subscribing Our team depends entirely on your contributions and not on advertisements by either governments or large corporations. So do support independent media pay to keep news free. We'll see you again next week. Until then, have a great weekend. Bye-bye.[01:51:00]
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