This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, Jayashree Arunachalam, and Shardool Katyayan are joined by senior journalist Nirmalya Mukherjee and NewsX editorial director Priya Sahgal.
The panel first discusses communal unrest in West Bengal’s Murshidabad, where protests against the Waqf Amendment Act turned violent this week. Nirmalya says, “This is the first time that Bengal is going to face a situation where religion has become a very important issue.” On West Bengal CM’s response to the violence, he says, “Mamata first blamed the riots as a Congress conspiracy. Then, the blame shifted to the BSF, and now [it’s an] international relations conspiracy.”
“No riot can happen without the complicity of the state,” Jayashee notes.
The panel then talks about Rahul Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi being named in the Enforcement Directorate’s chargesheet in the National Herald case. Raman says, “If you dissect the case, it’s extremely vague right now. And misappropriation doesn’t carry a strong criminal connotation.” Priya mentions that it is important to take into consideration the timing of the ED chargesheet. “Most of the battles in India are perception,” she says.
This and a lot more. Tune in!
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Song: Jakde ho kya
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements
00:03:09 – Headlines
00:13:24 – Murshidabad violence
00:45:38 – National Herald case
01:18:53 – How are Trump and Modi similar?
01:25:58 – Letters
01:43:47 – Recommendations
References
NL Sena - The impunity of India’s police
The change in Indore: ‘More and more Muslim kids targeted’
Dos & Don'ts in India
Recommendations
Jayashree
The Methods of Moral Panic Journalism
Raman
Trump Administration’s Letter to Harvard
Harvard’s response to Trump Administration’s letter
The boy who stood his ground: How Kedar Nath’s acts of defiance shaped sedition law
3 reasons why Congress can’t rediscover itself
Shardool
Delhi’s crematorium controversy is proof that caste still divides India even in death
Nirmalya
The Present History of West Bengal: Essays in Political Criticism
Priya
Half Lion: How P.V. Narasimha Rao Transformed India
BACKSTAGE: The Story behind India’s High Growth Years
Abhinandan
MAGA’s remaking of universities could have dire consequences
Why Trump Could Lose His Trade War With China | The Ezra Klein Show
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Ashish Anand.
Production assistance by intern Pragya Chakroborty.
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Abhinandan: Welcome to another episode of our weekly podcast, news Laundry Hafta. I'm your host, ab Sri in the studio today while Manisha pane is on leave and Anan is educating, young is Aspir, I'm guessing somewhere, uh, in the studio is Ram Kalala Inchi. Hello, Ian. Hello. Our inhouse doer of many things, including one of those rare skills where he's English and Hindi as good so he can.
Ate either way and rewrite things like very few can, I can only do Tamil to Punjabi and both sides. My family just jumped off a building, uh, and joining us and Joshua is landing [00:01:00] on,
Jayashree: on that note. On that note. Yeah.
Abhinandan: Our authentic Tamil in the house is m joining us from Chen. Hi Ge.
Jayashree: Hello. Hello.
Abhinandan: Joining us in the studio during this podcast will be two guests, Lia Muji will be joining us to talk about K Kata and Bengal and, uh, the disturbance and the violence there, uh, following protests against the W Amendment and also joining us later, will Priya Segel, who is the actual director of News X.
We shall talk about, uh, the National Herald case as the GHI have been, uh, now questioned by the ed. Right.
Raman: They have been questioned several times, but
Abhinandan: they, this time they've attached the property.
Raman: No. This time they, the two things have happened. One is the charge sheet, and now the ED has issued a notice too, uh, attached the properties.
The properties, right. And, uh, properties is the main thing. Otherwise, national Herd was closed, you know, for a long time.
Abhinandan: Yeah. [00:02:00] And in fact, we'll talk about how flawed the entire logic of, I mean, of course there are many aspects to this. We should talk about it when we get there. But before we get to the headlines, I would like to first of all thank our subscribers who have kind of.
Inched up our project, the impunity of India's police from Tamala to West Bengal. There's a QR code and you can see the project on your screens right now. Uh, it's a project that will take us to five states and at least seven producers and, uh, correspondence will travel to at least five states, probably more.
It'll cost us 13, like 40,000. We have collected 11 lack 25,000. Right now we're just about a lag and a half short, two lag short, and I'm sure you shall top it up. So please do so. We will have another very creative appeal in the middle sometime by ri, so you can just flash the QR code and contribute to that project so that our journalism always grows, is [00:03:00] sustained, remains ad free.
So we can demonstrate that there is an alternative model to news and journalism because it's very important in today's day and age. Of course, in India, it's been happening for a long time. Been calling this out forever, but now we see it's happening in other parts of the world as well. On that note, let's get the headlines.
Je, please do the honors.
Jayashree: Yes. So here are the headlines for the week. Violence erupted in West Girls. After protests against the Work Amendment Act spiraled into communal unrest. At least three people died. Over 200 have been arrested. Chief Mr. Man Ji has said the violence is pre-planned. She's also alleged a conspiracy where the BSF worked in tandem with central agencies and the BJOP.
Abhinandan: That's a big allegation. Hmm.
Jayashree: The ED has filed its charge sheet against Soya Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi for alleged money laundering in the national Herd case. The central agency is also moved to seize properties worth 660 crows that are linked to the case.
Priya and Raman: Hmm.
Jayashree: Electric cab operator, blue Smart has suspended [00:04:00] services.
This is days after SEBI accused its co-founder of diverting funds, when to purchase vehicles to buy a luxury apartment. So this has left thousands of drivers without work.
Abhinandan: And of course golf set 21, lack and I What else? The Jagi brothers bought, I know public funds. Hmm.
Jayashree: Uh, the Andre Pradesh cabinet on Tuesday approved the allotment of land measuring 21 acres in Beka Putnam to TCS.
This is for a token lease price of 99 per, the company says it's going to invest over 1,300 crows to set up a development center that will create 12,000 jobs.
Raman: The interesting would be. To read between the lines. Mm. I mean, they are giving it for 99 Pesa. Uh, like in Delhi also, all the hospitals have been given, uh, the land just for a rupe.
Hmm. But, uh, the caveat was that they have to, 25%, the beds is 20% of the, uh, you know, this thing. Right. And [00:05:00] then what happens? MLAs have been recommending their, their own relatives. Mm. Yeah. Under that qta. Mm. And it was never done. So I, I always used to wonder why. I mean, and, and all, look at Apollo, look at all the, uh, hospitals.
They all are commercial hospitals.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. And NC so, so
Raman: why the land should be given just for a rupe. Mm-hmm.
Priya and Raman: Right.
Jayashree: But this, this is also the story of Foxcon, right? Wasn't it? In. Wisconsin or whatever, where they procured a lot of land. They said they were setting up thousands and thousands of jobs. Yeah.
Because,
Abhinandan: correct. It didn't happen. At least with
Jayashree: Proco, it's nothing else.
Abhinandan: You know? I mean, the, if there's, in America, the logic is there's competitive federalism, right? Mm-hmm. Every state wants you to come so they can give you benefits and it may not be fair.
Priya and Raman: Mm-hmm.
Abhinandan: But one sees the logic in the sense that each state is vying for, because if you wanna win, you have more jobs created, um, because of stuff like this.
But a, the jobs don't [00:06:00] come as promised and that's happening all too frequently. Yeah. And in Delhi, I remember, um, there was this proposal during ops first term, they wanna set up a website that in real time you should be able to just log. 'cause you know, someone from the economic vehicle section goes to the hospital, says, I want to bet they said the 20% quota is full.
Priya and Raman: Mm-hmm.
Abhinandan: There's, now it's only the pain quota. And actually it's not full. Mm-hmm. So that said, there should be a real time display that suppose I, before I even head out, if I'm poor, I can just go to a website. Right. See which hospital the quota is there. Where there is a bed available. Yeah. There. So it's full transparency that who is occupying a bed and then automatically that audit won't be necessary now and then.
Yes. Because you'll be able to check real time. Yes. How much of this quota was fulfilled but it didn't end up happening. It's
Shardool: not that difficult to set up and coming. T CS TCS is the biggest IT service provider from India probably in the [00:07:00] world. Their market cap is beyond anywhere. Yeah. They have enough money to buy it.
Why did, why do they need this 99 PE land? Right? Correct. Give it to a startup if you want. You really wanna give it to someone.
Abhinandan: Well, the startup. Anyway, we'll come to that later. Yeah, we can talk you, you can watch this week's nuisance for the startup stories. Hmm.
Jayashree: Right. Next is, um, in my home state, AI d MK chief party Swami set his party newly formed alliance with the BJP is only for the 2026 TAM assembly elections.
He says there will be no coalition government if the alliance wins the polls. This is after Ahha said the BJP and the A DMK would contest in an alliance. And can I just say that they're contradicting each other but very badly, which is that Ahha very categorically last week was asked, so would the A DMK and the BJP former coalition government if you do happen to win or whatever in the 2026 polls.
And he said, yes. This man EPS has now waited a week to say. No, he's saying no, no, you're [00:08:00] misconstruing. He's saying what he actually meant is that we will form, form the job government together, as in the BP will form it in Delhi. We will form it in
Abhinandan: together. That's a creative interpretation. Very nice. Yes.
Cheers. Cheers.
Jayashree: Right. So Prime Minister Moori has claimed Muslim youths would not have had to fix punctures if work land had been properly used for the benefit of the community.
Abhinandan: Mm, I saw that speech. Nice. He knows exactly what she's doing and he does it very cleverly
Jayashree: in news from the courts. The Supreme Court has proposed to stay some provisions of the recently passed work amendment Act, including the inclusion of non-Muslims and work boards and the need deification of properties declares as work as work.
Raman: So this is, uh, where the government express has a good story. Yeah. Pointing out at even earlier. Whenever Supreme Court wanted to stay something, so they will guess it just to preempt it. The Center [00:09:00] for the Back will say that.
Abhinandan: Yes. So that's what the government has done. It's held back. They held, they said, okay,
Raman: we'll not implement them.
Yes. So you don't need to stay. Right.
Jayashree: Yeah. And it's not implementing them until the next hearing, which is May 5th. Hmm. Now, the Supreme Court has also directed the ANA government to develop a plan to restore a hundred acres of land in the K Forest area near the University of Hy Wa. Campus Chief Justice of India.
Sanjeev Kna has recommended the appointment of Justice Bushan Ram Krishna as his successor.
Abhinandan: So he'll be taking over next Thursday, right? May
Raman: 13th, he's retiring.
Abhinandan: Okay. So that's next to next Thursday. Got it.
Jayashree: The Supreme Court rejected a plea challenging the use of Urdu on a municipal sign board in Maharashtra.
The court said, prejudice against Urdu stems from the misconception that Urdu is alien to India.
Abhinandan: This is, it's good. The court's observation pretty good in this case. I was reading on the live law.
Shardool: Yeah. I mean, Urdu is an, it's not wrong language. [00:10:00] Yeah. Du is an Indian language. It's a beautiful language. Yeah.
Just because some br people don't like it.
Abhinandan: Exactly.
Jayashree: Now, after a landmark Supreme Court judgment, which set a three month deadline for president and governors to clear bills, the vice president Jahi Danker has hit her at the judiciary. He says, we cannot have a situation where courts direct the president.
He said, article 1 42 has become a nuclear missile against democratic forces.
Raman: As if, you know, this guy was listening to,
Abhinandan: listening to hta, and he heard what he said last time and said, let me prove Roman Kal. Right. No,
Raman: no, no. I, I, he's a lawyer by profession and I think the, the. The, the government, the union government has just left him and left him alone to speak on the judicial matters.
If you see even in the past. Yeah. Uh, he has made around five to six such statements. Yeah. You know, whenever Supreme Court will come up with something he has to just contradict. So whenever some new ju appointment of the judges happen, [00:11:00] he has to contradict. In
Abhinandan: fact, last hafta you had said that his crack record right from Besting also he has proved you rather, yes, this guy is a proper
Shardool: mastery,
Abhinandan: but what I, he acts like that.
But what I love is that he has tip to give to all this, but I love the tip he gives to governors when they don't do their job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is nothing. Nothing. He does nothing there otherwise he'll pagan all the time.
Jayashree: Also, I was very surprised that the times of India had a very, very hard hitting editorial today where they said that, uh, the position of vice president is a ceremonial role.
So it said we urge. All readers of this newspaper to realize that no matter what the VP says his post means, his comments must be discounted entirely. So right. Seven people have been booked for allegedly murdering a dalis farmer and setting his body on fire in a village in prior grudge.
Abhinandan: Yeah. This was a very ghastly story.
I read it.
Jayashree: Yeah. Fugitive business plan. Mahu Choi has been arrested in Belgium. This is after India made an extradition [00:12:00] request.
Abhinandan: Let's see when he comes back. Uh, this one is back, of course, ran. Yes.
Jayashree: In America. Donald Trump's administration has frozen more than $2.2 billion in grants and $60 million in contracts to Harvard University.
This is after Harvard said it would defy demands to overhaul its policies and curb activism on p on campus.
Abhinandan: I, this is actually a very good sign because following this Columbia, uh, university, which earlier had capital related, has suddenly found a spine, issued a statement, and I think. I dunno how many, but dozens of, if not scores of professors from Cornell or Yale, one of the two have signed a letter saying our university also should take a stand.
Yeah. And, uh, and following this show of defiance, of course, uh, the, the equivalent of the tax department like we have here in the US IRS, uh, has, uh, is expected to cancel their tax exemption status Harvard's like they do here, FC [00:13:00] cancel the I Exactly. One of
Raman: my recommendation is that we should read the letter as he issued by the Trump a administration to the, to Harvard and then the Harvards reply to it to them.
Yeah. Yeah. Both of them are available. Mm. Beautifully worded and, and, uh, it's a telltale. Mm. I mean, you don't need to go anywhere else. Right.
Jayashree: And finally, in the uk the Supreme Court has ruled the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex. So those are the headlines for the week.
Abhinandan: Right? Uh, on that note, I'd like to welcome our guest who's joining us from Bengal.
Um, hi. Hi, Al. I pronou it correctly.
Nirmalya: Yes, yes. Thank you very much, Tammi.
Abhinandan: Okay. So I will just first formally introduce you to our audience. Uh, you are a journalist and columnist. You're based in K Kata. You have been in the news industry for four decades, and you worked at the Indian Express, the Financial Express, the Telegraph Business Standard, uh, in New Rally Ranchi, [00:14:00] Bosha, and K Kata.
So thanks for making the time. Uh, just can you give us an overview of the violence in the accusation and counter accusations? And there was a clip of Manta Banerjee that the BJP had shared, um, which suggested that, well, she, I mean, if not provoking, she was kind of. A justifying pre justifying violence if it follows, because that's the only way to block this.
How much truth is there? How much gray is there? And what is the situation on the ground in Bengal?
Nirmalya: See, I can tell you this was that this time it's a little different because elections are only 10 months away, 19 months away. And this is the first time that Bengal is gonna face a situation where religion has become a very important issue.
And as you know, that, uh, BJP is [00:15:00] considered, I consider BJP as a Hindu party and, uh, does Muslim politics.
Priya and Raman: Hmm.
Nirmalya: The left does class politics and Congress does, uh, no. Politics politic. Congress does no politics. So, so you cannot say, because BJP doesn't have a mask, they openly say that we are for Hindus. So all the other communities, they are mostly either with us or not with us, but they're not us.
That is the main thing. They have a thin line. Uh, regarding the other parties, secularism is a big, uh, shield. They use, in some cases the leftist use, uh, the world imperialism and all these things. They bring in America, they bring in China, but different issues they come up. But at ultimately all the four parties that is operating in Bengal, they at the base [00:16:00] after BJP emerge here are religious parts,
Abhinandan: right?
Nirmalya: We have to accept that. Okay. So my view is that since religion is becoming religion, you see it's an easy take and at the same time it's very hard take. What has happened in. In Bengal, I have been watching for such a long time also in Delhi where, when I was in Delhi there were a lot of things, lot of issues, events like this, but those events were suppressed during the left regime, during the Congress regime.
We never used to write. We always said that it was a clash between two Com two, uh, two types of, and all these things. We were trained in that way. So this is the first time that the media is also coming out saying it's the Hindus and the Muslims. So it has become a reality and why it has become a reality because the political parties actually, they do [00:17:00] play religious, religious cards,
Abhinandan: religious.
So there is a huge exodus of Hindus from those villages because they are under model of a threat from, uh, you know, Muslim mobs or communities. Is that, is that correct? No, no, no. That's, that's wrong view,
Abhinandan & Nirmalya: right?
Abhinandan: Because
Abhinandan & Nirmalya: that is what, that is what legacy media is showing us, right? That all these Hindus are fleeing, et
Nirmalya: cetera.
I,
Abhinandan & Nirmalya: I'm leaving with
Nirmalya: you. You live next door to me, suddenly one morning I come up and I kill you. So unless there is a provocation, this never happens with certain interest. And that provocation could be a state provocation, could be an international provocation, and that the pro are successful, that they have been able to tate these idiotic, foolish political parties who do play.
Religious for their own benefit. In Bengal, this thing has emerged mostly in Bengal [00:18:00] after BJP retained its almost 40% vote in two consecutive election in 2020, and again in they were almost 40% in 19. So from 19 onwards this has happened, and the biggest, I should say, the biggest curse, what has happened to Bengal is that ruling the country twice in a unitary fashion, unitary rules somehow gave an impression that in consolidation is a must in Bengal.
And that created advantages for. Advantages for BJs
Abhinandan: but for nobody else. It kind of wiped out all the other presence. So it just, the other
Nirmalya: presence is the other political parties are virtually washed out.
Abhinandan: So it is quite [00:19:00] clear that MATA actually does a lot of what they call appeasement and pandering. And because that is just
Nirmalya: definitely,
Abhinandan: if
Nirmalya: the bjp, if they appeal that Hindu consolidation is essential in that case, MATA and even before Mata, the left also went in for left consolidation.
Consolidation because basically in thousand 11, 8% of the vote shifted and left was outta power. They were 2 35, they came down to 40, only 8% shift. Of that six and half percent was Muslim vote.
Abhinandan: Right? So it's basically in Bengal, the Muslim vote is significant enough to make or break your government. Uh, now of course.
If you notice, and this I guess is with the eyes on the Bengal election, ma Mora kind of tweeted about it and because the English and Hindi media is completely beholden to the BJP, they didn't make, I mean they make a big deal of far less. [00:20:00] Those two saffron clad BJP are sung inclined men who, who trying to force fish shops to shut down Tran Park that have been there forever for as long as Tran Park is.
They were picked up by the police within two days. Mm-hmm. Otherwise, in Delhi there is video of Hindu men beating up Muslims. Our own case of our correspondent, our reporter being roughed up by the Hindu goons. When they went to cover that, no arrest, nothing happened, but in this immediately arrest happened because dude, you mess with the fish and you lose in Bengal.
So they, has it ever happened in Delhi in two days? The police has found the guys under arrested them. No.
Raman: Then there was a meme that the bengalese are think fish market. So, so there could have been a riot over these memes. I mean if, if you see right on small, small things you are asked saying that move the, move the temple out, but fish market is gonna [00:21:00] stay.
Abhinandan: Uh, but just one more question then I'll come back to the rest of the panel to get their views. Uh, and this goes to ly once again. Al I just wanna understand now Mata has won three terms as chief minister, which is also not a small thing. You know, just like Modi has won three terms as Prime Minister Mata, she's fighting a fourth for fourth term now.
They have tried this. I remember the last election, the Hindu Muslim became a big thing. The BJP really, you know, tried the Hindu politics, but it didn't work. She came back with a very convincing majority and like she really thumped the BJP. Um, the BJP tried that in Delhi. In the last election when they tried to fight on Hindu, Muslim, and those riots happened in 2020, AF came back.
So in Bengal and Delhi, the Hindu Muslim politics didn't work. Why do they think it worked this time? Because it hasn't worked for them last time. Right?
Nirmalya: There is a thin line you see in Bengal, Muslim, and women. These are the two main pillars for Manta. [00:22:00] So the women vote, most of the women vote because of LA and all these things had gone into Monta, and that even could not offset PJP too much.
It's the difference was only 7%. Hmm. But the constituencies are distributed in such a way. The difference became huge. BJP was shut off to 77 up. In, in thousand 21 and in 2024, BJP strip to 12 from 18 to 12, and Manta went up from 21 to 20.
Abhinandan: So it's not working. This Hindu card is not working for them. Why are they trying it again and again?
Nirmalya: Be able to say that had not, had that been the case, how could have BJP got, got two pro 31 lag votes outta seven Pro, uh uh, uh, uh, 80 lag votes. That is a huge [00:23:00] amount. And you'll be surprised to know that BJ lost by only hundred in 31,000 votes out the total 82,000 because BJP people could not reach the booth.
They don't have that organization.
Abhinandan: Oh. So okay. Right.
Nirmalya: She, if the organization, and the second part is that in Bengal population, there are five and half Hindu voters.
Voters. The total vote is around one crows for the Muslims and for the Hindus it's only 50%. So that is the only reason is harping on raising the polling percentage. Polling percentage in Bengal is always around 70%. Like in your Delhi? Mm. One and a half [00:24:00] voters, 90 LA people came for voting. So 50 LA symbol just vanished.
Mm. Had they cast their
Abhinandan & Nirmalya: vote,
Nirmalya: what would've happened?
Abhinandan & Nirmalya: Nobody knows. Right. So it's a question of increasing the actual, the numbers Yes. That
Nirmalya: do not vote. I.
And it is 95% MATA has reached a saturation, like BJP has reached a saturation in, yeah, right. Just
Jayashree: specifically about mu, what is your opinion of the TMCs general response? Because I think the majority of MUS MLAs are from the TMC. Yes. All its mps are from the TMC, but other TMC legislators are accusing the local MLAs of losing touch with the ground of not knowing what's going on, of leaving their houses.
And then Manta now is throwing everything, right. She's saying it's Bangladeshi infiltrators. She's saying there's that conspiracy with the BSF, then also now saying there's some PFI [00:25:00] conspiracy of playing some role. So how do you view this entire response?
Nirmalya: My opinion, Maka is a very smart politician.
Jayashree: Yeah.
Nirmalya: The first thing she did, she said the three places, Julian. Yeah. They come under the Congress's, so. So that's the first passing of the buck. Which means she is justifying, then she moves on to bsf. Yeah. And then she moves on to international questions, Bangladesh, all these things. So she's digressing going on Digressing, which shows that she is justifying the violence in a different way.
And in the last meeting with the Muslim, uh, religious leaders, she was very outspoken and she went into all nonis issues. Mm. Am versus how Banerjee is being and all these things because they had no meaning. What will, what will the Hama gurus do with all these issues? [00:26:00] The, the, the, the sub, the ssc, um, uh, for and all these things.
Got it. Okay. So always trying to digress, which when she digresses, that is her way of dealing in politics. Whenever she. She really faces any challenge as far as I have seen her. She's absolutely very smart and cool and she immediately diverts things and she, she can even go to the moon and she can even talk about news, laundry.
Abhinandan: Okay. I dunno whether that's a good thing or bad thing, but, uh,
Jayashree: so, but I feel like any sort of violence or a riot, right. In my opinion, the behavior should and does fall on whoever controls law and order Yes. With the state, like whoever started it, who's at fault. Like these are issues they can discuss, but at whatever level or detail that you're examining it, culpability will lie with the police.
There's that quote no. Um, in India no riot can happen without the, uh, complicity of the state. Yes. [00:27:00] And so in the case of the tmc, I mean, it's either complicity or it's grave incompetence because this sort of deflection and diversion I feel like could work for only so long, but,
Nirmalya: or a person on who anti incumbency has not worked.
Or three elections, do you think the police can work there?
Priya and Raman: Hmm
Nirmalya: hmm. When the incumbency does not work on, uh, ruler. The ruler. Ruler, whoever it may, Mr. Modi has been cut to size, correct? He has been jumping too much. Indian democracy has cut him down to, okay. And he has realized the fact is yet to realize it.
She still feels, she started off with 180 3. She went up to 11, then she went up to, now she's 2 21. If she goes up to two 40, do you think that the state [00:28:00] administration can work?
Abhinandan: Actually, that's very interesting. I mean, Al has really broken it down. It's basically Bengal is the inver inverted version of what's happening nationally with Modi and that kind of.
Complete dominance of, you know, her politics in the state has made her, you know, reckless and also just so confident of her, um, you know, base not abandoning her, and also the lack of any other party as an option. Like, you know, in Delhi, Congress did emerge as an option, although they get, still got zero point, uh, vote, uh, seats, but they cut a lot of up votes because the Muslim consolidation here didn't happen like it has in the past.
Right. Uh, but so you saw the, you know, vid, uh, videos and of course there's clearly violence there. Um, Mata's speech did not seem like the speech of someone who was cracking down on, you know, violence in, [00:29:00] in, in a no-nonsense way with real meaning. Uh, do you think that this entire, uh, her vote, having saturated and BJP is not.
Val says something that could, you know, occur this time because the Hindu Muslim thing hasn't worked for them in the past over there,
Raman: Uhhuh. But, uh, Alaya also told, uh, very nicely that 50% of the Hindu words are not so, so, they have succeeded. They have succeeded in consolidating Hindus in West Bengal, but they have not been able, they don't have the.
Alia or, or the kind of network which can take these Hindus to the polling booth. Polling booth. Hmm. So I think this is the, uh, so, so, uh, as of now, we used to think that, uh, in fact I also used to think with 250 every, every election she's increasing her lead.
Priya and Raman: Hmm.
Raman: And she's getting more. So [00:30:00] maybe the BJP is failing in its plank in its, uh, campaign.
But, uh, as he, he has put it very nicely and it's, it looks quite logical. I mean,
Abhinandan: the numbers that
Raman: they, they, their strategy is working,
Abhinandan: but they're not being converted words. Ah,
Raman: yeah. So, so they will, the consolidation is so, so I think the consolidation has happened, but now they need to take these Hindus.
To the polling boat. And I think, uh, all of us know that since, I mean old days, uh, when, when CPM used to rule. Mm. So they knew that in which particular pockets are going to vote against them. Yeah. And they would not get to vote. So they used to store them. Yeah. They wouldn't. So here also, I mean, we, we, we hear stories in Delhi that Manta Banerji is not letting these people, uh, get to the polling booth.
Abhinandan: In fact, um, you know, in Bengal this, the stated object, the stated trigger for these, this violence is protests against the amendments to work. Right. [00:31:00] Uh, and some allies of the BJP have also made some murmurs, which would make the BJP uncomfortable because it is leading to some sort of discontent among their electorate, whether it is mm-hmm.
You know, uh, in, uh, Ana, or whether it is in Bihar or so. That also may have some to do with the step back, right? But of course there the violence has not reached any levels of significance. But before we get back to Al, uh, sorry, Namal, go ahead. Then I'll come to Charul. Yeah, go ahead.
Nirmalya: Actually, actually, I'll tell you something, man became the chief minister without being an MA or sitting in opposition in the West Assembly.
Now, Mata has learned not to lose. Mohi had also learned not to until
similarly has learned not to lose because [00:32:00] she has won for three consecutive terms and she's not gonna give in so easily. That is for that she'll use whatever soft target is available. Now, these b JB people, the make, the big mistake they are making is that. They are taking first on the first location, they took Mata Headon on corruption.
Corruption became a nonissue Mata one. Now they have taken up, so they're trying different alternatives to move into Bengal, which shows that BJP is yet to understand the real sentiment of Bengal. Why this difference of 5%, 6% remains at one time. CPIM thought that they'll never lose in their entire, on the seventh term, they lost.
Congress at one [00:33:00] time felt that they, they'll never lose. Congress also lost in the seventh. So the two big parties for seventh, but. Mata is almost a family part. It moves like a family. She's the only member. The remaining are all her subordinates. She behaves in such a way and also wanted to paint BJP in that way, but he was Scottish by Es.
That is a different, but he has been, he understood that you should also learn to lose, should understand to that. You must learn how to lose. And for that, BJP is solely to be blamed. The bigger mistakes they make,
Abhinandan: the benefits. Right. You were saying Shadu, so
Shardool: I have a lot to say. With respect, I refuse to accept this framing on the debate.
One, would [00:34:00] we be framing our arguments in the same way if it was a state governed by bjp? Mm. And not TMC one and I, and I think you also agree with this, nobody told us. Mm, that dream is gone. Two. There are videos, numerous videos of terrorized women children running away
Abhinandan: right from villages. So I
Shardool: apologies for my voice.
I have a health condition today. So if somebody, some of our listeners say that third, there were violence on smaller scale in South 24, Perna, Malda Hoy, our D. Our arguments are ways and our approach to discuss this subject would be different if it was a statement governed by B-J-P-B-J-P as media. I don't care about, I'm sorry if it hurt somebody's feelings.
I don't give a rat as about BJP or TMC. People were killed. Two of them, they were dragged out of their houses. There are. Many, many [00:35:00] videos online. Online. There's evidence. You can see the violence. Right? When like her cabinet minister, it was like urban development and municipal affairs and housing minister said that people are migrating within Bengal, so they're safe.
What kind of hair-brained argument is this? Mm-hmm. And we are just discounting it. I don't Which, which is
Abhinandan: also what happened. Jamal Kashmiri, right? They came from
Shardool: to Jamus. I mean like, I don't care what mata wi or not, that's her politics. Mm. Like when we discuss politics, we'll make those arguments. There is no doubt that the administration was lacking in its response.
Mm. Lacking in its intelligence. Like if she has governed the state for almost 20 years now,
Abhinandan: they'd know what's happening on the ground.
Shardool: They should know. And like in Bengal, we know how it works. Everybody knows about cut money. Are you telling me there are no TMC people on the ground in that they out of 24 seats, 20 are with TMC with anaba seed in that region?
Like Josh mentioned one other thing. If you are protesting. And the point about provocation,
Abhinandan: like, and what was the protest by the way? Who was [00:36:00] it being led by a particular leader? It was, I mean,
Shardool: I haven't
Abhinandan: got much, we're not
Shardool: sure yet, but leave that for a minute. The point about provocation, like what's this provocation?
I, I said it I think last week also, the easiest business in India is hurt feelings. It requires no capital and the profit is perfect.
Abhinandan: Hmm. Now
Shardool: what are you talking about? If your feelings are hurt, how does that give anybody the right to oppress or do violence against someone who's maybe, maybe perspectively, maybe in that situation?
Weaker, be it economical, be it numbers. You cannot do this. Either we are living in a democracy or we are not, and decide on this. If violence is allowed, then everybody's allowed violence. BJP gives the same arguments, doesn't it, in a different state. Mm-hmm. And we go hammer and tongs against them. I have no love for them.
But Manta has proven again and again in RG car. And she is in trouble to make the point about politics. She's in trouble because the teachers have been suspended by SU Supreme Court. Yeah. The other cases coming up. In fact, [00:37:00] she
Abhinandan: has said that she will, I mean, I dunno how she'll do that, but she's kind of suggested that she will not comply by the Supreme Court order.
She hasn't said in so many words, but the first response after that was that, don't worry, I will, you know, I'll do something. So of course, and she can get them suspended and hire them again through some other mechanism.
Shardool: And the TET uh, case that also involve around 10,000, uh, teachers that is also coming up in Supreme Court.
So she is in political trouble and her political troubles are not our problem. Uh, we are supposed to comment, you know, and report on what's happening to the ground and worry about the people on the ground.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool: You have to, like, I generally don't get moved maybe because like. Whatever the reason, you can see the women crying.
Like there is no one pe they're dragging us out of our houses. How is that justifiable? Because somebody did something. If you cannot protest without violence, then you have no right to protest. And
Abhinandan: also we And what's the police presence on the ground? Also, there's just absolute clarity Ram So you were saying No,
Raman: no, I'm saying that discussing politics of violence has [00:38:00] many aspects.
Yes. Discussing politics of violence does not mean that somebody is trying to, uh, you know, wish whitewash it, human, human aspect of it. Human human aspect. I mean, if we know and we are also trying to get a story done, you know, uh, we are reconstruction
Abhinandan: on the ground, we on the ground stand for a on ground report 'cause he wanna like real report from the ground.
We trying to get some reporters construction
Raman: reconstruction of it. How it, how it did it begin with the social media. Two days in advance how everything happened. Is
Abhinandan: that the suggestion that it was started on social media?
Jayashree: Yeah, because they're saying that the police control rooms received hundreds of phone calls saying that we got this WhatsApp message.
We saw this thing on social media saying that XOY is happening. And that's also how it
Shardool: really, India today report said it started with a rumor that a boy who, when the protest was going on, a boy or a young man had died while clashing with the police. And this is how, but that was the spark that lit the fuse.
No, there's no clarity as such. Yes,
Raman: yes. So
Abhinandan: hopefully we'll get that to [00:39:00] our report,
Jayashree: you know? But that's the thing. I mean, and then you said like who led the protest? But that is the exact sort of thing that I is super missing from all media coverage. Yeah. All
Raman: media government,
Jayashree: very vaguely. We are told a protest was happening.
Vaguely it led to two men being young from their houses and then being killed. But there is very little explanation of how it happened R by r then how it sort of spiraled outta control.
Abhinandan: Yeah. That, yeah, that kind report don't become riots
Jayashree: just like that. Yeah. That is also
Abhinandan: whenever there's any protest, even if the person is not leading it, even if the person's a WhatsApp group, their arrests and things happen.
But before we say, uh, bye. Al, last word to you on this violence. Now, uh, is it safe to assume that the worst is over? Uh, whatever had to happen has happened, and of course we will get to the bottom of it. Hopefully some reports will come out. We'll try to get a report from the ground there. Or is this still something that you think could snowball considering elections at 10 months away?
Nirmalya: See, I [00:40:00] can tell you one thing. As a journalist, I go by concrete. No wide angle vision, especially with a person who has never lost.
Down. So everybody thought that Modi was a dictator. Is a dictator in similar way. So the we making here, like the protest, the democracy doesn't believe in all these things. She believes only not losing at any cost. So when religion becomes a soft target, as I told you, it's a very soft ground. Now in Bengal and democracy, as he was saying is right.
Democracy thrives through opposition. It's not for the rulers that democracy rights, right? The opposition have to behave responsibly just by saying when you know very well that [00:41:00] is appeasing. The Muslims and PJP is appeasing the Hindus, the remaining everything is. Where does the police come into picture?
Priya and Raman: Yeah. Who has got
Nirmalya: 1001 messages? They'll not take any action. It's if everything is state sponsored, then you'll have to upload. The state CPIM was uploaded when took the message, the people that these people will land j.
These people will take away your religion. That is what BJP is trying to, and that that is why they're saying this will become a new Bangla. Right. So they're taking that message that is creating further ground and opening up further issues is just the tip of the iceberg. As [00:42:00] elections come, we'll come this things to go on happening and MATA will try to consolidate as much as possible.
Mm-hmm. She'll try. She would leave. Even if two person is left out, the Muslims don't come to vote. Actually, what we find, I have a lot of students in IPAC that are working. They say, sir Newstream board is 21.7%, but when we calculate we get 33%, what does the BJP do about it? So this what, how will you control that?
I can discuss what days and nights on democracy protest, human civil rights. Mata is not caring about all these things. That's, she's only looking at the maa, even was looking at that maa,
Abhinandan: which is unfortunate, which were politics has become. But, uh, thank you so much Nali, for joining us very much. It has been an absolute pleasure [00:43:00] speaking with you.
Before we say goodbye, can we re uh, can we request you to recommend something for our audience that you think would enrich the lives? A book, a show, a film, an article, anything that you think is worth someone's time?
Nirmalya: Dr. Parto might, my teacher, he wrote a book, the Present History of Bengal.
Abhinandan: Okay,
Nirmalya: so that's a wonderful book.
How the demography is changing and How Bengal will Change.
Abhinandan: Thank. Thank you, Malia. Pleasure having you Have a fantastic weekend. Thanks for your time. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Right and on cue, we have a second guest joining us and before we speak about the Delhi Politics of Congress and BJP and the National Herald case, or remind you that you must subscribe to News Run Page to Keep News three.
You have a QR code on your screen right now and there's also link in the show notes below. And uh, I have already done my bit of try to convince you. Now let me see how Creatively [00:44:00] Gesture can give you a reason to subscribe to News Laundry and to top up our fund for the impunity of India's police series of investigations.
Yes, yes.
Jayashree: So I'll keep it very simple, which is that we just spent the better part of 45 minutes talking about Bengal and what happened and why a riot broke out. It shouldn't be this difficult to piece together what is happening in a major state that has seen major violence. But this is how people are struggling because media houses, one, are not spending on crowd reporting.
And two, they also bend to pressures from political parties and from corporates because that is how they get their ads. So the thing is that at News Laundry, we have solved both these problems. We reclaimed the space for independent reporting, which is backed by the public. We have also reclaimed journalism, which is free from all commercial influence.
So we wanna do more. Romans has said that we wanna send. Reporter to Bengal to get ground reports. We want more reports, we want more investigations. We want to cover more states. This is what we're doing in our police impunity [00:45:00] project and this is why we need you to subscribe. So as teams and reporting assignments get downsized everywhere.
You can help us upscale. So yes, can the QR code on your screen and please see what you have to do.
Abhinandan: We have a report right now on the um, earlier project, which was the Hindu project. Uh, from Indoor. This is PRS report. Yes. Uh, the link is in the show notes below. So do check out that report. And this report is also financed by our subscribers.
It was a special report investigation. I think we did five reports on this, uh, subject progression. We've
Jayashree: got two out so far. The third is going up and we will have several more to come. So,
Abhinandan: so do check that out and then you can top of this project. Now let me introduce our next guest. Thank you for joining us.
Uh, you're in Delhi, only Priya.
Priya: That's right. Good to be here.
Abhinandan: Yes. Priya Segal is the editorial director of music. She hosts three shows, the Round [00:46:00] Table cover story, and we Women Want. She also writes a political column for the Sunday Guardian, and she's the author of two books that I know of anymore that I should.
No. Of Priya,
Priya: oh, uh, two political books and one was, uh, you know, a social guide to India Do and Don't in India, you know, we had a very provocative title saying, don't kiss the bride because it's for the western audience, the tourists. So in India, please don't do that. You may do that in your church weddings, but we don't take kindly to that.
So stuff like that, advice like that.
Abhinandan: So that was not a political book, but No, the contenders was your book on, uh, various political leaders of significance across the country,
Priya: right?
Abhinandan: Yes. Future leaders. Future leaders, correct. So, um, the national case, you know, will more contextual emerge as we discussed this, but National Herald was a newspaper, uh, founded by, uh, was it founded by Joel.
Okay. [00:47:00] So yes. Now. Many of you in Delhi have seen, um, what's it Baba? No, what's the name of that road? The ba where there is the Times House, express House, and all these newspapers have the total buildings there. I mean, I will explain more as we move on because I have seen the contracts of at least two, uh, newspapers.
The lease that was given, the lease under which that land was given. The logic was that, uh, uh, had said, in fact Pu used to say that news should not be dependent on ads. So the logic was these plots of land will be given the building at that time when there weren't so many buildings in Delhi, uh, 33% has to be used for the news.
A newspaper and 66% can be rented out so the rent can pay for the newspaper. So you're not dependent on ads or any other r. So that was the logic, and there were many other clauses in those lease. So basically that was the logic. All this land, so it's heavily subsidized. We were talking about [00:48:00] hospitals.
Even legacy newspapers given land on that logic. The allegation is National Herald, and now of course, those buildings and those plots are worth hundreds of crows, if not thousands probably. Yes. And uh, that land where instead of running National Herald as a newspaper, it had been rented out completely, hardly any la of that office space was being used for the newspaper and that money was being used for whatever purposes, and that it had been sold to the Gandhi family after taking a loan from the Congress party and all that from.
So that is the basic context. Now, this is not just true for national health, it's true for many papers, but National Herald is the poster child of this WAP logic of what the land is given for. On that note, we will come to the legal aspects, et cetera. Mm-hmm. You know, further down. But as far as your take on this, Priya, um, with the ED coming down, and of course this is not just in Delhi.
In Bombay, in K Kata, many cities, newspapers got land [00:49:00] and plots like that back in the day, in the fifties, I guess this was one in the fifties, fifties, fifties and sixties. Fifties. Uh, so Priya, what do you make of this? Uh, it doesn't seem to have rattled the Gandhi and embarrassingly, Mr. Vara still giving bys that if the Congress won't self fight election.
I'm like, okay. The Congress like, no, we don't want. But, uh, what do you make of this Herald case? How much, how much fact, how much fiction, how much political, uh, you know, weight does it carry? I.
Priya: Uh, thank you. And actually, you know, with everything over here, there is of course fact I will leave it for a legal, uh, team to, uh, you know, explain properly.
But most of the battles in India are perception. So, you know, what is the perception, what is the messaging that is going on? What is the timing of the case? These are the key issues which have a political bearing on it. One, of course is, you know, they've got the Gandhi. They started this investigation very interestingly, I was just looking at, in 2012, you know, there were allegations and, uh, you know, the case was, uh, uh, [00:50:00] looked into, that was the time when there was a UPA government in pa.
Then I think in 2015, the ED said the, let's close the case. 2015 is when Modi government has just come in. Hmm. At that time, 2015, ed said, recommended to close the case, but Superman filed a. Petition or whatever it's called to reopen the case, and the case has stayed reopened. Uh, the Gandhis were called in for an investigation last year, 2023, where Rahul Gandhi went about 50 hours.
Sonia Gandhi also despite, uh, I Health did go for a round of questioning. So in terms of perception, the Gandhis did that threat to the e office, but they also showed their cooperating with the investigation and the BGP made much about the corruption allegations, et cetera. What has happened right now is that a charge sheet has been filed, now a charge sheet has been filed.
Congress is saying because the court had given them a deadline, deadline was eighth April. Charge sheet was accordingly filed, uh, during that deadline. But the charge sheet holds both Rahul and Sonya Gandhi. They're mentioned in the charge sheet. So now the BJP, instead of saying tainted hand bail may charge [00:51:00] sheeted hand charge sheet.
It means there's a whole new level of, uh, you know, criminal status. When you go abroad, you need to maybe take permission, you know, charge sheet. It means, um, you may not, uh, need to take bail because investigation has already happened. Mm-hmm. Now it'll go to trial and judgment, but charge heed leaders has its own bearing, as you know, at a time where the Congress, um, where the, uh, what may call it, uh, BJP is raising the corruption taint.
We have them, you know. Uh, targeting various leaders from the opposition, the ED being, you know, used for that. Uh, I believe there was a question in parliament also, which said that outta 1 93 investigations of the ed, only two opposition cases actually met conviction, you know, targeting of opposition leaders.
So you Yes. Sub optics more than the really the legalities of the case. Uh, the Congress, um, as you said, uh, quite rightly, they don't seem so perturbed as they were, but we are told the spokespersons are taking it seriously. Uh, only the those who know the case are allowed to comment on it. Aish, Manus, we being one, we don't have your average spokespersons, like on [00:52:00] television debates, when we call people, they say that we've been told that only a few people will talk.
So let's keep it to the legal, uh, track and let's also not add few. I think it's a smart move. Because they're not gonna be adding fuel to the, you know, what's the use, having a debate when the other side hand going to, you know, counter your allegations and this thing, they want to keep the debate on legal matters and they'll nominate the legal people, uh, to speak on that.
So in countering perception, that is a first step to the Congress really is taking. Um, I don't think, you know, because by now the Ed Uhand is so, um, uh, tainted, so badly discredited, public, tainted, yeah, no, yeah,
Abhinandan & Nirmalya: yeah.
Priya: Get your legal person to defend me. But basically, you know, they've been so badly maligned in the, the public.
How many people take this case seriously as the Congress says it quit pro. How do you know someone is guilty when they've benefited from all these properties? Properties are still in the name of, uh, national Herald or Young India, whatever that company is. It's not in Sonia's name or Raul's name. Young India is a non-profit company, not-for-profit.
So all these [00:53:00] allegations. Are being countered, but does the common topic have the time and the patience to listen to the countering or will they believe the charge sheet today? That is the biggest battle the Congress has to fight.
Abhinandan: And I think it's also a question of inconveniencing the leadership, right?
'cause that does make a difference. Yeah. When you just are all the time thinking how to defend rather than come strategy of your own. But you know, we were talking about Bengal, you know, before Priya joined us and how when everything is so flawed, there is no checks and balance. For example, if money per hadn't played out the way it did, or Gura hadn't played out the way it did, then someone could have made the case for a president's rule in Bengal.
But now when you have precedents there, then they'll say, why this way? So everything becomes
Priya and Raman: Yeah.
Abhinandan: So compromised because, so checks and balances completely fail because all checks and balances are not doing their jobs. Uh, so in the same sense. Uh, I mean, I'll just give our audience one clause, which pretty much every newspaper is in violation of.
And those buildings are worth, [00:54:00] like I said, if not hundreds, if not thousands, hundreds of crawls. Yep. Um, like the rent of just half a floor, that would be a crawl a month. You know, that's, that's the kind of space we're talking about now. Um, when these leases were given, uh, you, I mean, even 10 years ago we had predicted AI of what it's doing right now.
So one of the clauses in that lease is the newspaper has to, uh, print from the printing press. All these buildings have a printing press in the basement. I've seen this. I've seen these. They have, they have. I've gone to these basement, I've seen the presses. These presses are Baba Adam Zaman. They can be sold as in the Salang Museum as antiques.
So actually, I know for a fact for the last 10 years, I dunno for how much before that. Hardly any, if any newspaper is actually printing outta that press. All the printing has been outsourced to printing houses that are actually doing the printing. But I know one of the newspapers, what it does is it has a [00:55:00] supplement every Monday That supplement, which is a two-page supplement, is printed there.
So they have ticked the box of compliance that we are printing. But the paper seven days a week is outsourced because it is not efficient to print out of those Uck, Uck, those printing, you cannot print papers when in the fifties and sixties they hadn't, you know, preempted the internet. So how relevant is it even now?
So if you go purely by fairness, all these buildings should be taken back. Ah, absolutely. Because none of them are using it. But these buildings are worth, like I said, so much money that there are buildings that are not even. Printing a paper that goes beyond that street, but just to keep the building. A print paper is put paper, the print, and we just know of three of our big names.
So if actually National Herald loses the case saying that they were not complying with the lease conditions, [00:56:00] a smart person like Superman saw me can say, now apply the same logic to every building and I will bet significant money, no building would have honored all the conditions of the lease agreement.
Not because of any fault of theirs, but because the technological aspects of that lease are irrelevant in 2025.
Raman: Right.
Abhinandan: But that's unfortunate story of India.
Raman: Yes,
Abhinandan: there are rules made. They don't, they're not relevant today. They meant well at the time. The person has benefited so much today. A person who has a building about 700 crows.
Saying vapa, Carlos, since you're not publishing a newspaper, and please tell me how many people here have subscribed to the National Held. Ever read it? I dunno.
Shardool: Many You can, these printing presses not be changed. Like if they're outdated, why can't they change? They can analyze those. But it still
Abhinandan: isn't efficient
Shardool: system.
Raman: No, no. National was working at one point. In fact, I, I wrote articles initially. No, of course, back then. It's still coming
Abhinandan: [00:57:00] out, huh? Ah, it's still coming out. Well, it's coming out because you will have to get a new newspaper out to keep the building building. Many newspapers are just coming out to keep the building.
They're not doing anything. No, they, they're
Raman: actually. They, they're just printing 500, 1000 copies. That's it.
Abhinandan: So there's so many. And Indi, uh, in Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, this, it's a story. It's a, even Chennai I'm sure would have the equivalent of, uh, yeah. Uh, I keep saying Baba Sigma
Jayashree: all the presidencies. No, I guess no, there are many in
Shardool: Bal.
Also, I think we did a story couple of years ago during the pandemic, the people were running small newspaper just to keep the building and get that government grant.
Priya and Raman: Right.
Jayashree: But I have a question for you Delhi people. So this, when you're saying the National Herald case though, but it is a bunch of different cases, right?
So there's that money laundering case against the Gandhis. There's also that land, the CBS land thing with B the Huda who then died. There's the, isn't there also some income tax thing where they said that RA Gandian didn't declare that he got income from Young Indian or whatever in his income tax filings.
So [00:58:00] when we say case, is it all these things that are still going on or is it now only the ED'S money laundering case?
Priya: The charge sheet is in the ED money laundering case. Uh, but there is that Huda, I mean, there are cases that are coming out because, uh, people are looking into it. So all these cases aren't making the headlines, but I think this ed the charge sheet is specifically the ED case.
Right.
Jayashree: But the CBI case all still exists. Right. I mean, as far as we know, even though Huda died in 2021 or whatever.
Priya: Yeah. That case, uh, the, the, the various CMS gave it a clean sheet or, you know, took the land back and once again, the Congress CM gave it back to them. Yeah. Did the, there was a committee appointed, which did give a clean sheet, but again, that is been rigged up again.
So that is happening.
Raman: Huda case is not, uh, national. Yeah, it's, that is the land, right. You know, given wa
Abhinandan & Nirmalya: Yeah.
Abhinandan: So, so I, I mean, news organiz is still given land. I, in fact, one of Asia's biggest newsrooms is in [00:59:00] NoDa RNA boasts about Asia's biggest newsroom, Asia's biggest newsroom. You know, sorry sir Karen. You know, go ahead after this. But this whole logic, like one is the flawed logic of all this land given on terms which are irrelevant in 2025, printing, press, print, et cetera, et cetera.
In 2025, when you have the internet, you don't even need like a hundred by 500 foot studios. But even today, states are giving land to news organizations saying this is a absolutely. And so it's just become this incentive system. Yeah. Bereft of any technical logic. You do not need a building that size to run a news operation.
Raman: Go to Noida film City. All uh, media houses have got, uh, you know, prominent media houses. They've got their land.
Abhinandan: Have we
Raman: applied in some of them? We must
Abhinandan: apply Yogi. We, when we
Raman: get. Please. And, and, and, uh, I know that, uh, one of the most prominent newspaper, very good [01:00:00] newspaper, uh, and they had two buildings, they have sold it off, so they don't even have, uh, you know, they're not even running their operations.
So you get the land, right? No. In this case, I, uh, in fact, you know, is very interesting to see, uh, in, if somebody can reconstruct in 2012 when the UPA was ruling, when, when, mm-hmm. When, uh, the UPA was ruling the two two G scam came up. And, uh, and this of course, national L also came up now, I mean, uh, when the Congress is ruling how these cases came up, first of all, we need to, I mean, if somebody can reconstruct that mm-hmm.
Because eventually this built up the entire ED advice of, uh, you know, corruption. And it brought down, uh, you know, government, government in 2000 mm-hmm. 14 up a government. So, so I think this is, uh, something, uh, which is very interesting. And then 2014 onwards, uh, the political strategy, uh, of Modi was very clear that just keep them [01:01:00] busy in these cases, corruption, criminal cases.
So you can see, I mean, from 2014 till now, I mean, the cases just keep coming up and it keeps these politicians busy. Now coming to this national AL case, uh. The money laundering ad is looking at the money laundering act. So, so legally, I mean, uh, if you just dissect the entire case, you have two, three characters here.
Okay. You have Young India, you have a c, a Associated Journal press, and you have Congress.
Priya and Raman: Hmm.
Raman: Okay. Now, in 2008, national Herald, uh, newspaper, it stopped publishing because they had lot of loans. They didn't have money to pay to their, uh, you know, employees. Employees. So, so the, so, and it was escalating, uh, you know, every year.
So they stopped the operations. And, uh, then there was a point of time, uh, when, when, uh, [01:02:00] the, this Sonya Gandhi, Gandhi family, they said, okay, we will, uh, revive it. Revive it. Now how they're going to revive it. They take a loan from, I mean, I'm. Telling it very simply, but actors are these three only. They somehow, they, they get a loan of 90 crow from the party.
Hmm. Congress party. Okay, now they get this loan and they pay to a CJ to pay off all the employees,
Abhinandan: all the debts, clear, ENT
Raman: funds everything. So just clear the debts. And they, uh, and the company involved is Young India, where these people have got, uh, the young India gets about 76%. Uh, they have 76% stakes in young India.
And Young India has got the prominent role in controlling the shares of a CJ. So practically it stays with a CJ. There's another company which enters and, uh, and, and there are, there were 1000 people along with Joel Nero, who had started this, [01:03:00] uh, you know, national, national Herald. Now these. People have no objection.
Moura was one of them. Of them. Yeah. So, so they had no objections for young India being the part of, uh, a CG. So, so virtually nothing has been sold off. Young India has just come in and 90 Crow Congress had given. Now 80 thinks that this is the money launder now the Congress. But we don't know if of these 1000 people, any one of them has.
Made a charge that Gandhis have misappropriated, you know, the Congress, the party funds, and secondly, uh, whether the party fund can be used for non-party, uh, purposes or non-political purposes. That is also not clear under the law. Third. So
Jayashree: one question, wasn't there also this, but when you said that we don't know if the originals had an issue, but didn't the original shareholders have some issue that PR Bush's grandfather or somebody he said that.
The [01:04:00] original shareholders didn't get consent for it to pass to Young Indian. The consent?
Raman: No. See, the thing is, that's what I'm saying. The consent is, uh, was given, Moura was the president. He was the representative of all those. So he had given the con no. So there are four, five guys who had given their consent, but nobody, uh, of this 1000, many of them are dead.
Are
Abhinandan: dead and no
Raman: one objected. Ah, Soha. So, so nobody has objected as, as of now. So we don't know. Uh, if they have rejected, then we, but that's also different
Abhinandan: case. You see that the case is that if someone objects, then it is, you know, corporate governance issue. Right now it is a money laundering issue to prove money laundering.
They have to show that then that. Finally, how did that money get back to whoever it was supposed to get? That yes, there's no evidence of that. There's
Raman: no evidence to it.
Abhinandan: Right? So
Raman: that is why, I mean, if you see, it's very vague. It's, it's extremely vague right now. And misappropriation is something which, uh, I mean, it doesn't have so much, uh, criminal, uh, connotation.
You know, it can be, uh, maybe, I mean, the income tax [01:05:00] thing will involve, uh,
Abhinandan: out here. See actually none of, see if you want to really, if the purpose is to take that building back. They stopped publishing the paper, that is a violation of the lease guidelines. That alone is enough to take the building back.
Hmm. But if that is the only thing they go with, it has no political, you know, corruption angle. And if they go with that, they'll have to take a lot of buildings back. And then all the media people will not, because a lot of buildings, they have not published a paper from there. So I think that's why they're going, the only black and white issue is the lease says if you don't publish a newspaper, you are given this land to publish a newspaper.
If you're not publishing newspaper land back, that is the only black and white thing. Everything else is speculation.
Raman: Ah. So,
Abhinandan: and on that black and white thing, they will not act because then they'll have to act against too many people. No, I
Raman: think if, if you see, uh, in case of Dragon Ready where the CBI has filed 10 charge sheets, ed followed up, they also seized all the properties.
Tel case, I mean, take any case, ed has this. [01:06:00] Uh, task of, you know, seizing the prob, but what actually happens after that is, yeah, that you need to, that's the story. It doesn't stay with the ed, ed hasn't auctioned these properties, uh, you know, ever I think in the garb of prosecution, they are prosecuting. Uh, right.
That's the, which is, which is, I think this is, this is in one nutshell. I mean, this is a story of, uh,
Abhinandan: but before we get back to Priya,
Priya: in fact, can I just come Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Priya.
Abhinandan: No, please go ahead.
Priya: No, I just wanna add to what Robinson of, uh, you know, the political part of it. I met a very senior Congress leader, you know, post UPA too, and he told me we were all victims of Sonya Gandhi's heightened sense of morality.
He's saying on the whiff of a suspicion, suspicion or allegation, resignations were sought. You know, all the cases that happened, whether it was CWG,
Kumar, so many that scam tainted, uh, UPA two, when we say a p has not found a conviction Hmm. But Soya Gandhi was so meticulous and so proper that everybody, whoever had [01:07:00] that gift of this thing, she immediately sought their resignation. Today what is happening is you just do not admit, uh, you know, we saw, um, that, uh, we've seen.
Admit any. There is no scam if the prime minister and all don't admit it, like, you know, um, during Covid also nothing happened. No deaths, no. This thing, if you don't admit it, it doesn't exist. You don't, yeah. There is no scam.
Abhinandan: You don't have to. So this is a, you have to deal with it. If you don't accept its existence, you don't
Priya: accept it.
So then you can, you and I can keep arguing for ahead government, okay? They're not admitting know Gandhi,
this whole, uh, none of the scams are met, the light of day. No. So this is the strategy of the government, which is working,
Abhinandan: and not just politicians, even regular folk have learned this. Uh, it was started off by this one standup comic. I forget his name, but he had done this set [01:08:00] after Rania, you know, issued an apology for that obscene.
He says, you know, these Bombay people are very decent. He says, within two hours he apologized. He
and he said that as a joke one month later, you know that Punjab pastor? Yes, yes. When that video emerge of him throwing something at that lady and being violent and abusive, he showed us this thing.
Although he's convicted now, but he's convicted a separate case. But on that, he's ai. That's not me.
Raman: There's one just thing. I mean, uh, that is for sure that Congress, Gandhi family has used. Congress as its fm. I mean, who gives 90 Crow? Yeah, of course. There's And who, who is suddenly, I mean, 1000. Uh, why, why Gandhis are thinking of, uh, becoming the majority shareholder.
Sure. Why? Mm. [01:09:00] So, so, so that is very clever. But how, whether it is legal or illegal, or whether it is money laundering or not, that is a separate issue.
Shardool: That a separate issue. This is a very convoluted case, to be honest. Like I found myself distracted all the time, like, why am I studying this? So politically I would say this.
If they're attaching properties, then BJP seems, hell Ben, on their mission to bankrupt Congress because they did it last year. Also, they froze their accounts for the Yeah, you have
Abhinandan: no money to fight in election. Yeah.
Shardool: Um, and, but there is also a Silver nine and I think Congress, some people in the Congress seem to realize that if they play their cards right, they may use this to their advantage to come back into public perception and limelight.
That they're being persecuted about this case. Like you said, like it's, it's all like India. There are so many archaic rules which are not being followed and you are at the mercy of the government. If they want you in jail, they will keep you in jail.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Shardool: Like there was a good example that even where liquor [01:10:00] is allowed, like liquor is legal somehow, is that you cannot have more than
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Two liters of whiskey or buying. I mean you cannot have even have that lying at home.
Shardool: Yeah. There was one state which was like a in, that's the case. Yeah. 700 ml, you cannot, the fucking bottle is seven 50 ml. What are you saying? And the government is selling it to me, to, if I buy the bottle and bring it at home, then I'm,
Abhinandan: you have to first empty out 50 ml.
50 ml the can make short mark. Yeah.
Shardool: So this keeps happening. I have to say one thing though, to be honest, like, look, who do you trust In this case? I will not deny that Bjb is using ED and other agencies to come, but I cannot deny that when Congress was in power, they didn't make money. Like, who do you trust in this
Abhinandan: case?
No, I've been making money is different. But you know, to what you're saying sir, about, you know, the user, the personal fiefdom. Yeah. See politics as we know, you know, right from the time of Jalal Niru, he or she who controls the [01:11:00] purse strings controls the party. Mm-hmm. Yes. It's that simple. Uh, a party that has, doesn't have enough money to control who gets how much to contest for election.
True it, it falls apart. But what the BJP has managed to do is control all institutions that have access to cash, whether it's a pmks fund, whether it is political bonds, this right electoral bonds, whether it is BCCI, you see wherever there is a huge pile of cash, whether it is a political outfit or whether it's a sports outfit.
Raman: Yes.
Abhinandan: Whether they will control their outfit because you can reward people. See, I don't have to reward you from the BJP money. No. Right. I can give you IP contract. Yes, yes.
Priya and Raman: Yeah.
Abhinandan: Wherever there is the money, they control that source. Yes. And that is basically how politics is being fought in today's day age, unfortunately.
Shardool: Right. The drama about mata government before these elections was about money because MATA gives you the [01:12:00] most revenue.
Abhinandan: In fact, I saw this interesting statistic in a discussion on CNN two days ago in US. Nine. So there it is a lot more transparent how much you spend on elections. Uh, and a big money funding elections is something that has been a huge bone of contention there.
They've got the data out of all elections fought, 90% have been won by the candidate that's spent more money. Yeah. It's that simple. Yeah. 90%, not 70 or 80. So that's how much of a difference it makes. But before we, uh, let Priya go, uh, any other inputs on this, uh, Priya that you can think of, which, uh, within the Congress would impact how the congress works?
Is there any money for someone to control the party through purse strings or now it's just the brand name GHI that controls the party and there's no purse, so there's no strings.
Shardool: May I add another question to Priya too? Sure. That there was a detail that Congress, I mean the, the GHI family, the, the [01:13:00] accusation is that they took advanced rent of 38 code.
What is that? What is advanced rent and
Abhinandan: 38 control of advanced? That actually was also the case in the ran back C case. I mean, that's that, I mean, that's a provision where you front load a payment that happens and it's not unusual. Yeah.
Priya: Sorry, I don't have much on the 30th Carol one. But on the other thing, I think the Congress, uh, you know, um, it's always, uh, the state governments that tend to fund, uh, whichever parties in pa, which is why Modi, when he was campaigning in Karna in KA a m, so currently they do have at least three state governments bup bag.
Again, one of the reasons why I'm told he lost was also because he was asked to fund all the elections from a SAM to up, you know, so it, uh, does have its, uh, call back. Congress says it is not, uh, uh, very, uh, thing with funds. They are going for a, you know, fundraising drive through the organization also. Um, so that, uh, it's a lot is left to, you know, individuals because they have a lot of individual chief teams.
Like ka he financed the whole mad presidential election. [01:14:00] But then you have a problem that these guys then tend to become dictators and they do things their way, which is not always the party's way. Hmm. So Congress will have to figure it out. But, uh, apart from the financing, anything else? It is Raul Gandhi very much in control.
I mean, I have people who are politically speaking, if I may deviate a bit, who are very, uh, within the Congress, little disappointed with the kgi, thinking that, you know, when Kgi would've come, he was a good, um, not just a Dali face, but a leader from the grassroots. Someone who would come. So they would be like a two pass center or some, you know, kind of a, an am Patel sort of a source.
But Carlgate seems to be more of a yes man. Casey Al is running the show and Casey is doing everything that Raul says. So there is a, a little, a lot of resentment within the Congress also. But it is Raul's party. His ideology, his, he says caste sense is the issue. Caste sense is the issue he says,
gets a say. So let's see what Raul does with this party. Uh, he's proven that he [01:15:00] can, you know, in terms of these allegations, he doesn't get phased down. He meets it head on and that shows a good, uh, you know, in terms of his own fostering, which exactly
Abhinandan: I think
Priya: in that it's helping his image,
Abhinandan: I think on that.
He's very defiant. But, you know, since you mentioned Kamal Na, should we consider that a career finished over?
Priya: I think so, yes. There's no, may not agree, but I think, uh, we should, I don't see any, uh, other, and his son, I mean the son also lost now, so that, that dynasty you can say is, uh,
Abhinandan: it's done, I think
Shardool: done with Al Dynasty.
Abhinandan: Right. So, uh, before you go Priya, recommendation, that could enrich the lives of our listeners.
Priya: You know, I was thinking about it and you know, what I'm reading or what I'm doing right now, the books today are, are so, you know, if I look at the, in terms of political books, we have this whole, uh, alternate narrative business that is going on.
So there are so many books on heg, uh, uh, leaders of [01:16:00] Hara, that one, uh, some rightfully deserve that place and hadn't been mentioned by the Congress. Some of course are agenda driven. But I wanted to just back to someone who I've always admired and I've been these days rereading books on Rao. You know, we're going through a financial crisis.
Uh, as of now and someone who didn't have the mandate that Mohi has, didn't even know he was going to be Prime Minister till the day he was made Prime Minister within a month and a half ushered in so many reforms. So I was in fact reading. I have with me, uh, uh, this book Half Lion by Ven Pat again.
Mm-hmm. And also book on, uh, Mon, uh, biography, autobiography backstage and rereading it. And the one line that I really liked where he's quoting a conversation with Ch Abram, just before you know, the liberalization there, uh, were, uh, reworked the trade policy. Mm-hmm. And ch always said, you know, we always had the wings, but we didn't have the courage to fly.
He was. Quoing Johnson living in Seaville. But the thing is, that's where we are today. You know, we, these guys have the mandate, they have everything, you know, they have the public packing, yet we are in this economic [01:17:00] mess. So, you know, I would just, I would ask my viewers, you know, because we are so caught up in this, uh, you know, a lot of our viewers are young.
I don't know whether they were there in our morales time, and he's only remembered for Bar. But his life and times is something that I would urge people to read again and look at it again. And on a personal note, if you'll grant me something, is, uh, I'm also recommending your readers to read Georgia. As you know, I lost my mom a few months ago.
Priya and Raman: Oh, sorry about that. And
Priya: I opened her godridge cupboard and this is where she had all her Georgia Terra. And each book, you know, she's written to everybody, please don't steal fourth copy, don't steal because people borrow books and don't return it. So
Jayashree: I absolutely love Georgia Te so such a great recommendation.
Priya: So if I may, you know, political one, lighter reading. That's Yes. Thank
Abhinandan: you. Thank you so much Priya. And just so our audience knows, this whole rumor of LA Deli, everybody knows each other. I've known Priya since I was 12 years old. She was one of my mother's favorite students. [01:18:00] Mom
Priya: taught me my love of reading, so I really,
Abhinandan: so, so clearly she succeeded somewhere and somewhere she failed.
But, but thank you so much Priya, and uh, good luck. Thank you. Alright, bye bye-Bye Priya.
Priya and Raman: Thank you all. Bye-bye Priya. Bye bye. Nice, bye. bye-Bye.
Abhinandan: Before I wind up the discussion, a few more inputs about something that I would like to talk about, which is the university issue. Um. Reminding you once again, here's a QR code.
This is just a subscription pay to keep news three. 'cause when the public pays, the public is served. And today more than ever, we need journalism that is funded by the public. 'cause we are not getting any land, we are not starting any printing press.
Raman: We should have at least applied.
Abhinandan: We should have applied and then we could have done a story.
So that would've been
Raman: a story.
Abhinandan: That would've been a story had we got it, it a story, had we not, it would've been a story. And had we got it then you could have had big subscriber parties over there. Yeah. So anyway,
Raman: building, man building,
Abhinandan: we would've played. We dunno about that. [01:19:00] But, uh, I just quickly wanted to go around the panel and I, you know, have, most of my recommendations are about, not most, but two at least, are about what's happening in the university situation in the us.
You know, we've said this as a joke and I had suggested to Manisha that we should do a nuisance that how Trump is learning from Modi. I actually don't think it's a joke. I genuinely think Trump's think tanks are taking a book from what is Modi doing? How did he manage to win against, yes. What they are doing with Harvard is textbook what these guys have been doing for the longest time.
Yes, yes. And I dunno whether you guys have been following this, but how many of you think genuinely not just as a joke. Trump has actually learned this from us.
Shardool: No, I follow this. You think
Abhinandan: it's possible?
Shardool: No, it's not po it is happening. So I follow this state by state. Mm-hmm. Because, because by default, US systems and politics [01:20:00] is way more simpler than India and way more transparent.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool: So if you look at the discussions happening and how these people overline and when that Texas rally happened, when Modi, HDI Modi. Yes. Yes. Hdi Modi. So if you look at the people who, who overlap between the Hindu right wing circle and now Trump, help us Maga and, and what Trump has learned after, not maga maga.
Br different kind of stupid. So these are people who are political lobbies, who are, who are strategists and they need a job. After his first term, Trump learned that you cannot have people even for propriety.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Shardool: And somehow it's slipping my brain. What's the name of that guy who looks like he's been just beaten up and hasn't taken a bath?
Abhinandan: The health,
Shardool: the bride Bart guy.
Abhinandan: Oh yeah.
Shardool: Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon. Yes. So there are a lot of people and you see disproportionate number of Indians there, [01:21:00] and that's not because. They're aligning you more. They know. But these political strategies are learning from each other because they see that, yeah.
It's, it's a very,
Abhinandan: the best practices not Yes. They, they're seeing what are the best, worst practices across, and
Shardool: Trump likes what Moti does because he, he likes couple of more people in the world. He likes the North Korea one, right? Mm-hmm. And he likes Putin.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Shardool: But he cannot do that in us. But what he can do
Abhinandan: is find pliable people of, and also the, the biggest democracy,
Shardool: uh, may I, may I tell you one thing.
If you look at the press conference, Modi and Trump did when these tariffs thing was going on. For the first time you see you as journalists. There were people who were given entry, like the Aire Gregory husband. Yeah. That's the husband who were just disrespecting, uh, first Zelensky, then asking very pliable questions like Modi, mango question.
And now people are noticing
Abhinandan: that Exactly. The, the having go the media there. Yes. I think it [01:22:00] is. It's too much of a coincidence. Je do you think it's too much to think that they're learning from us? I think they are.
Jayashree: No, but also, I mean, see if you look up things like textbook fascism and all, what happens now is that you'll have that usually, as you know, this happened in Germany, this happened in Italy, this happened in Hungary.
But you also start seeing things like this happened in India because the CEA protests are a very big example of how, you know, they went after Indian students and they sort of positioned them as anti-national or whatever. So I do think that. I mean, whether he is directly inspired by what happened in India or whether he's following a very natural tra trajectory of how authoritarianism would work.
You know, because going after students is a very easy thing and university administrations are like extensions of the ruling class, right? They are craven, they are sort of beholden to whoever gives them the most amount of money. So this is just another small little step in that way, is what
Raman: I think. I think, I think more they will blush if he,[01:23:00]
Abhinandan: he, he,
Raman: he had gone to the US and he was welcomed by Elon. Uh, Elon. Elon. Musk. Musk and his, his children. Okay. Uh, small children. So he, I don't. Think he got a very good, uh, you know, welcome. Um, of course, I mean, um, that, that tariff was also raised. Mm. In fact, uh, yes. One thing is for sure that, uh, uh, Trump is trying to control educational institution and is trying to control media.
Media as Modi had done, you know, in, in his initial years and he is doing, continuing doing so. Uh, but uh, having said that, uh, you know, something which used to play, uh, up in my mind as you used to say that, uh, and then that institutions are very strong. The us the us. So after Trump came and whatever little I have seen, I had started doubting [01:24:00] that.
But now when the Harvard came up. Then I again remembered, you know what you said also the Supreme
Abhinandan: Court. Yeah. The ah, Supreme Court also said that, that they'll, everything is a constitutional crisis like in India, LG versus him. He's disobeying a co. A judge. Yes. Yeah. Now the judge is saying that you tell me how you did not turn that plane around, and I will identify who were the officer's response and punish them.
Raman: Mm-hmm.
Abhinandan: There will be one constitution crisis after the other. Stephen Miller has said point blank that, dude, we, we are not gonna obey the judges. Yeah. Called. Called for the impeachment. So I think that is something that Modi has been doing for the longest time. So, and I, you know, whether it is a foreign policy coup.
We have to accept that Trump is very disrespectful and dismissive of every leader across the country. But he doesn't treat Modi that way. He doesn't name him. He doesn't, you know? Yes, he, but is it
Jayashree: also because he doesn't think Modi is important enough to really engage in that right now? No, I don't
Abhinandan: think so.
I think, I think though he, no, I [01:25:00] think it's, he names other countries. He takes countries by name. He also named India though.
Shardool: Yes.
Abhinandan: But considering India is such a big player in world markets, that I think there definitely is an affection there, which is, whether it's good for us or not, is. Separate matter, but yes, Modi is on the right side of Trump, but you have
Raman: 2% of Indian votes also there.
Now I don't,
Abhinandan: I'm not sure that's enough election. Dunno that.
Shardool: So I wanna make a distinction. When Al said Modi is not on a higher scale, or like it's not above in that strategy, Trump pays a different animal than Modi. Modi is way more wildly un shrewd. But Trump has way more power at his hand. Of course his base is way more lo loyal.
Like our politics is way more complex. Yeah. Also, so our strategists are helping him. And you will see whenever he talks about India and what India is doing, he makes a distinction that I do like moi.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Shardool: And that political affinity is very apparent because this Twitter words and their bases are interacting with each other, I'm sure.
Exactly. And that that feedback loop is going, [01:26:00] that we can learn from these people and they can learn from us. Yeah, exactly. I
Abhinandan: think there is some mutual learning happening there. So on that note, tra, you know, we have a new way of addressing the emails and the letters that you send. One of the hafta panelists curates four, five, or six, depending on the length of the emails or the letters that come, the rest are collected.
Every sixth episode, we will have one hafta letters and feedback special where all of them can be addressed without rushing through them. So today, the curation is being done by ri. You can write to us@podcastsatnewsone.com, at repeat podcasts@newsone.com, or you can click on the link in the show notes below.
There'll be a popup and you can just fill in your feedback there. Please keep it below one 50 words so that we can include as many as possible.
Jayashree: Right. So I have removed one of the letters. I. Because I, it is for Anan is not here. So I think we'll save that for him. So the first letter is from Paris Seja, who says, like many others, I do feel HHA has turned into an echo chamber.
Everyone [01:27:00] basically agreeing with everybody else, like in the case of tariffs, economic theory is ever evolving. Oftentimes what theory claims is opposite of the lived experiences of people. I look forward to such nuanced cross questioning to be done by guests Two. Number two shows the Hindu Rashta project has been fully funded by 7.7 lax, but only one story to show for it.
Kindly address this. And number three, regarding en Sena on police, the Hindu has done a wonderful interview, would retire IPS Officer Prakash Singh. To understand the police perspective. There were many shades of gray. Why is NL not doing such interviews? I understand politicians in power won't want be questioned, but outside of this, there are many well-meaning, honest individuals who are willing to engage.
I also missed the earlier I agree with series of nl. Okay,
Abhinandan: so on the, we now from one per, I think now there are three stories already. Up, two are up, one is gonna go by this weekend. Which one? On the, the Hindu Russia project Du
Raman: Hindu, Russia. The one story and the second has is up today. Mm-hmm. Uh, and the third one is going to come on Monday.
[01:28:00] Right. And uh, there is one per, uh, we had gone to Gujarat, so Gujarat stories will also start coming. Is one big Yeah. Gujarat picture. It'll be a series which is half. No, which is documentary in fact half an hour. So, which that is going to come up. And then we are doing mostly the video stories. Right. Just one text story from Ade.
The rest are going to be there. Yeah.
Abhinandan: So I think when Perry wrote the mail one had gone up when we read the mail. Two are up. By the time this show goes online, three will be up. So yeah, that's been addressed.
Jayashree: But also the reason for the delay was also because the, I think the Delhi election came somewhere along the way, which is why in the middle.
Yes. Videos take time now.
Abhinandan: Oh, yeah. Videos. That's fine. I mean, these are not breaking news stories. They have to be done in depth. I mean, that as subscribers understand as long as, as it's thoroughly done. Yes. And the second thing you wanted to address was what
Raman: ING forecasting has, uh, is the one who had done, uh, you know, who wrote a report on the police reforms.
Yes. Okay. And which is, uh, I think now 20 years old, which is, uh, the [01:29:00] most, uh, uh, courted, uh, you know, report every time when something goes wrong, whether the police, uh, I think and, and, and things are going wrong, nothing. His, his, uh, recommendations have also not been followed. Yeah. And he has been interviewed a number of times.
Yeah. So, uh, I think, uh, that to be something new, the ground stories. These are, are the important ones, I'm sure. I
Abhinandan: mean, we can do that in India as part of this, once we have some, ah, we'll do
Raman: that.
Abhinandan: But I mean, percussing has been on several panels. He's been into it several times. I mean, I think he said all that he has to say.
I, I was actually with him at an airport. Both of us are on a panel, uh, and our flight was delayed, so we were just sitting and chatting for about an hour and a half or two. So, yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot he said, but of course a lot of that, he told me at the airport he will not see on camera. So it's underwhelming for me also to interview him after that.
Raman: And no, besides, uh, if you just see our stories of police central cities or, or, or some crime stories, you will see his courts over there because [01:30:00] our reporters have spoken with them. Right. And you will also see the reference office report. Right. Uh, you know, uh, police reform report, which we keep doing in, in our explainers as well as in our text reports.
Shardool: Yeah. And that judgment came in 2007. It's been 18 years. So he's been asked that question many times.
Jayashree: Right. So the next email is from Mancha. Who says Hi Manisha because of Pi Coil's remark on startups, there's been an outpouring of complaints against the government and government employees about issues faced by startups from basic bribery to power supply disruption to unnecessary harassment.
Everything to me, through the constraints of my social media, it seems as enough proof and talk by so many startup founders, some very successful, that this is an actual issue that everyone agrees on. Now, what is the actual way of seeing any change, like in the light of how things work in India, if a group of citizens want to solve this, what's the most practical way to solve this according to your experience, whatever you've seen in your journalistic experience?
Abhinandan: Uh, policy change [01:31:00] when it comes to stuff like this can only be solved by lobbying at a very high level. Uh, even voting in and out governments is not as effective as lobbying at the level where some big industrialists, you know, speak with the framers of policy and say. Ease this, ease that do this. But right now, because the kind of hold that have over the country, policy will only change if it benefits the BJP.
It has no economic rationale. I've said this for the last 15 years, ever since Hafta has been around, I do not believe Mr. Mo than Mr. Shah have an economic project. It is a social project. It doesn't matter what happens economically. So, and you can see this week's nuisance, I've addressed this. Only
Raman: start.
Jayashree: I do have one thing to say though, on generally as startups in India, which is that, uh, so I feel people keep saying, oh, but Indian startups aren't like [01:32:00] innovating enough, or we have no focus on science and research.
But for me it's like this duality of India, right? Which is that, or. You have this sliver of this elite population, which is spending tens of millions of rupees or whatever. And then you have a billion and a half per people who can't spend at all. And it is only once a good chunk of people are comfortable that a society can, at a very broad level, so have to look at things like deeper in innovation and science.
Priya and Raman: Mm.
Jayashree: And for all the complaints that you can have over China, that is what China has done over the decades. So even in the early days of Deng Xiaoping, I remember reading, uh, Vikram states from Heaven's Lake where he says the average China man is better off than the average Indian. And this was in the 1980s, and the situation has only become worse over like the last 40, 45 years.
So the median Chinese person is way better off than I respective Indian and therefore India when millions are struggling, only once that is fixed. Can society sort of think of higher pursuit, spike, innovation, science? Yeah. And this
Raman: is,
Jayashree: so right now what's happening with startups is they're trying to get money out of a handful of elites in the fastest way and.[01:33:00]
I mean, this is the approach all over the world, but I think in India it's even starco.
Raman: And this is grossly wrong to ask, you know, startups to do their r and d. Yeah. And the Indian government itself, if you see their budget over the past year, I mean, forget, BJP, even Congress also, how much money have they, uh, spent on r and d?
They haven't.
Shardool: Yeah. I, I think we made this point last week. Right. I mean, the research and the tendency and impetus to ask questions is a, it's not a switch of on and off. You have to inculcate the culture. You have to give space. And of course, research is part of luxury. If you have everything taken care of, then you'll innovate.
If you're worried about where the next week's Russian is gonna come, then you have no mindset to innovate. Yes.
Jayashree: Next is from, uh, gin Kama. Gin Kama. Who says I was slightly disappointed with the entire panel not knowing who Lex Friedman was. He's one of the few who has interviewed Trump and [01:34:00] Zelensky and now Ra, he's one of the many offshoots of the Rogan sphere, Patrick, for keeping an eye on US politics and general zeitgeist.
He's one of the key people. I hope this isn't har too harsh feedback, but it does appear that the panel still thinks us mainstream media is expected to be the primary source of news. The reality is that just like in India, if you have to follow news, it's the independent outlets that have more credibility.
The same as the case in the us. Here are a few names. Drop Site has done some stunning work. Israel recently killed their journalist in Gaza. Breaking points is brilliant. There's EO by Mehdi Hassan and channels like Minority Report by Sam, et cetera, which are also much better than the traditional media.
Yes, just, which is just partisan and this is just a suggestion. Thank you. Jin Shall may I address this? I include this letter because these are all great recommendations.
Shardool: So may I address this one? Congratulations on Jin Kama. For those who know Jin Kasama is a protagonist character in tech and series.
Abhinandan: I see it's a
Shardool: game.
Abhinandan: So he's a gamer like you? Yeah.
Shardool: Yes. And uh, there, I think there is another letter from him very, which is, [01:35:00] uh, written by Hii Mima. So Hii Mima is Jin Kamas grandfather.
Abhinandan: I see.
Shardool: So, and what he says slightly panel, I, I am slightly disappointed that you think we don't know. Lex Friedman was Le, Lex Friedman is a guy.
If Hitler was alive, he'll ask, what is your positive points about concentration? That is what Lex Friedman is.
Song: I see. Yes. To be honest
Shardool: with you, he would ask that. Sam Cer is great. Sam Cer is one of the most honest commentators on uni US politics. I disagree about breaking points because saga breaking points is by two people, crystal ball.
She fought in Democratic elections also. And Saga. Saga is a Trump supporter. Now he's disappointed, but he was supporting Trump.
Abhinandan: Sure. So,
Shardool: but they're fine. They analyze things. We do one more thing. I'll say that Rogan's Fair is not that great, but yes, your point is well taken that we should look at more people who commentate on US politics.
Priya and Raman: But yeah.
Jayashree: Next Unti who says large [01:36:00] gratitude for NL. Excellent journalism every day. An instrumental in shaping my politics. Reflecting on the importance of independent media. Thanks to your thoughts. I'm an MBA student interested in journalism business models that up uphold journalism's mission. I'm curious how you think about it.
Number one, what is N L'S journalism mission? How does the business model solve for it? And where does it miss versus win? How do you evaluate that mission served across different channels, website, YouTube, podcast, et cetera. So we'll take two time 'cause she's
Abhinandan: got six. So let's do these two first. Oh, uh, NLS Journalism Mission is.
Accurate on ground reportage. It's very simple. Uh, there's nothing new as far as that's concerned. It's just that no one does that anymore because commentary became more profitable because hits became more important. And the business model solves for it is that people tend to not pay for opinion.
They'll pay for ground reports. So that is how it kind of feeds into the other, uh, where is it a his hit and a win miss? I don't think there's much of a miss. The miss is that you can't [01:37:00] scale as fast, but that's not really miss because if he tries to scale fast, uh, you will not end up doing journalism. Uh, how, how do you evaluate?
The mission is served across different channels. Uh, we don't really go for how many hits it got. If it gets shared, great, and you don't have to be the biggest domino. But if you, like for example, we broke the Rami Land case and it was taken up by Exus, bigger channels. It was also debated on, uh, India.
Today's, uh, you know, it, they had a discussion on that as well. So even if you are the first trigger, that's good enough. As far as we are concerned, we don't wanna be the biggest, but if something we do causes the ripple effect, that's good enough.
Raman: Biggest what? I mean, if it happens, fine. Yeah. But with limited resources mm-hmm.
We try to come up with factual reports. Mm-hmm.
Jayashree: Cool. Then, uh, what is the audience you see across different channels, number type, monetization potential, and with the subscription model, what is easier to [01:38:00] do? What are the pain points? What is unchanged?
Abhinandan: Uh, one is, yeah, I mean the demographic, audience demographic, I will not get into the, but it's typically between, you know, on YouTube, young people, overwhelming majority are young people.
Below 30, our subscribers tend to be. Between 25 and 50, usually above 30 because they have earning capacity and unfortunately an overwhelming majority of our audience and subscribers is male. We are not unique in that. That seems to be the news, uh, demographic news, consumption demographic across any news platform.
Jayashree: Uh, with subscription model. What's easier, pain points unchanged
Abhinandan: subscription model is you're not dependent on one or two pillars. Like if five corporations with draw advertising, a news organization could collapse and very famously, a very good and honest editor had said this, [01:39:00] he said, I can't take on everyone together.
You know Tata ads? Yes. Yes, I can only, whereas all of us, you know, I have said things that have pissed off dozens of subscribers and I get mail. So you're a dick. I'm withdrawing my subscription. If 20 go, 200 come. Yeah. So we are unafraid to give a point of view because no one point of view will make the whole collapse.
Jayashree: Uh, what other models appeal to you? Is global audience a consideration? And what is your dream project?
Abhinandan: Global audience is not really consideration. Yeah. It's Indian audience. You do Indian politics, maybe dream project. You have a dream project.
Raman: See, you are as good as your last story.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Raman: So whatever our last story was, the what we, we are chasing many more.
So I think, uh, this dream will go on.
Abhinandan: I'll, I'll tell you my dream project, and I think I said it on HTA before, and I'd like to do this myself as the [01:40:00] host of the show in search of Nare Modi's classmates.
Priya and Raman: Ooh, that is very good. I want that to be
Abhinandan: a documentary. And I had discussed that earlier with production.
I was like, if you were, if I were to start. So I Dream Project is here. I am in Ssar. He's from Ssar, right? Where, where, where did where? Don't remember. He said often, uh, this is where he was born. This is where he went to the first school. And I just go house to house. It's like a,
Raman: your documentary Will Die is one
Abhinandan: documentary where I am trying to find out one boy who sat next to Mr.
Moine class in school. In college. One professor who taught him one professor. That is my dream project. I think it'll make a phenomenal documentary film. It'll be funny. Investigative ironic, but it requires a lot of time. Since you have, I have to sit here and sign checks
Raman: since you have already revealed it.
Mm. Now the social media will start working on, on his classmates [01:41:00] and his professors, and you will find all of them. And I don't know if they were, they would've
Abhinandan: come forward by now. I mean, I've, there's so many classmates of all the others that have already said I went to class with, but anyway, that's. So, yeah, it, it's gonna be an expensive one.
Jayashree: Cool. So next email is from Ana 4G subscriber who says, Goa is being primed to be the next money port. There's rampant fear and hatemongering amongst outsiders being pushed by Instagram handle. He's given a link.
Priya: Mm-hmm.
Jayashree: While there are incidents misbehavior by tourists and outsiders, this channel is singularly responsible for making locals very aggressive towards nongo.
I told the state recently it's clear to see the anger when locals see a nongo or registered vehicle or a black number plate rented vehicle. I'm not saying there's no problem, but this channel is clearly working towards a larger goal. See the comments section? You'll know what I'm saying. Maybe this can be investigated.
Also, Jay's comments at a certain point in half the five to eight was so true that we are unsporting when we win. We are unsporting when we lose. This attitude is what led to the MAO in indoor violence. Right? The [01:42:00] insecurities of the masses is the vehicle.
Abhinandan: Right. All right.
Jayashree: Yep. Last email Vasal who says, I agree.
Bollywood is using Fred's present sentiment to look at history and churn money with movies like Chava, I think, but I think it's how the public and the media reacts particularly to a movie that plays a major role. To be fair to a filmmaker, there is a disclaimer and Chava that's based a novel and that it's not historical record yet it's riled up emotions in this way, which shows the state of popular imagination in the country.
From a filmmaking perspective, I think the producer has a right to make an imaginative, fantastical story without much worry about historical accuracy once they've given that disclaimer, think of the movie. 300 Everyone knows the Battle of Thermo Phi Le was folklore not history, and Persian King Xerxes was not an eight foot tall God like man dressed only in jewelry.
Now, did the Spartan Army have 300 men on TRT and steroids? But it added to the tone of the story and the screenplay, which should be taken for that purpose only. [01:43:00] I mean, I love the idea that the Spartan Army were 300 men on steroids and TRT, but badly not.
Shardool: Yeah. I'm like, that's a comic book, essentially.
Jayashree: Yeah.
Abhinandan: Right.
Jayashree: I mean, see, I agree that yeah, they put in a disclaimer they've done their job and also it is shocking that which is that the public is mostly running with it. Like I thought even the maker of Cava could not predict what would happen with that entire gold rush. And then the archeological survey of India saying, yes, we will also investigate it.
It's things sort of spiral out of control.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But. India is a different audience also. I mean,
Shardool: somebody brought horse into the movie theater with Really? Yes. I didn't see he dressed up in that attire and came on. He dressed as a horse. No, no, he, no, no. I Talking horse. Horse. He dressed as in that historical attire and the cinema on a horse.
Horse, yeah. Yeah. And came inside the cinema on a horse or a ma, I'm not sure, but
Abhinandan: Right. Okay. Um, so let's get the recommendations for the week. [01:44:00] You wanna go first, Jeri?
Jayashree: Yeah. So my first recommendation is, uh, by this chap called Michael Hobbs, which he wrote this on his substack he wrote a couple of years ago, but I read it quite recently.
So he says, for years now, there've been very panicked. Headlines and features warning Americans about threat of an increasingly illiberal left. Thousands of words are dedicated to the same arguments, the same low stakes anecdotes, the same torture, historical analogies. He says this entire moral panic is absolute bullshit.
And he's explaining to you how to spot it as told through two example pieces, one published in The Economist and one in the Atlantic. So the story is called The Methods of Moral Panic Journalism Scare Stories on Left-Wing Illiberalism Display, A familiar Pattern,
Priya and Raman: right? And one
Jayashree: companion piece I have for this is in Charact Affairs magazine, which debunks all the terrible arguments posited in the Atlantic.
This is called The Atlantic is the worst magazine in America. So, yeah.
Raman: So, uh, so I [01:45:00] suggested, uh, this Harvard thingy and, uh, there are two more. Uh, in fact, both, uh, articles came out in express today. Hmm. Uh. I wanted to suggest just one, but the second one is also relevant since we have spoken about Congress.
Mm-hmm. Uh, the first is, uh, express has started a series from today, uh, 75 years of Independence and, uh, a very, uh, beautiful story about a person who, uh, in, uh, British India fought. The Sedition law. And then in independent India, he fought the same law against the Congress. So, so, so it's, it's a very, that's interesting, beautiful story of this person who comes from Bija and, uh, I think this is first of the series and, uh, many more I think are going to come, I think I would suggest the entire, because they plan it very well mm-hmm.
Of being part of express for many years. Yeah. Portage is well planned. Ah, so, [01:46:00] so, so, so this is a beautiful story. And the Sist Palka he wrote on Con Congress recently had its convention at ra. I mean, he sees nothing coming out of it, even I don't see anything coming out of it. Hmm. Uh, I mean, we are saying that this may benefit, I mean, only the miracle can, because you can't only what, what do you see?
Um, now, initially I like. Raul Gandhi, you know, going to, uh, a blacksmith and doing his work. I mean, he's trying to, you know, uh, make those reels and those videos and he thinks that this is how he's going to get gain popularity. Yeah. That's not how it works. But initially it appealed, but now, but yeah, it's not, it has become a, you need a bigger ground game, right?
So, so I don't see their government, state governments doing anything, which is worth noticing. I mean, look at Connectica,
Priya and Raman: right?
Raman: What have they done? Which we should [01:47:00] take note of, you know, uh, living in Delhi. So I don't think Congress has any plans, any ideological, uh, you know, strategy or political strategy to win in future.
Only a miracle if it happens, if, if people are dead against. You know, the BJPI Modi, they won't go against, but they're dead against bjp. Maybe Congress has a chance otherwise it. Good article today
Shardool: I have two recommendations and both of them would be a bit uncomfortable. Uh, first is of the story on the caste discrimination at cremation grounds sh Boomi.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Shardool: And it shows a window into our society, which nobody wants to look at. When people look at it, they don't want to acknowledge it, or if they acknowledge it, they don't want to forget it. As soon as possible, we could. It shows you are part of our society, which is not very endearing or even uncomfortable to watch, but it's a reality which people deal with.
A lot of people deal with every day. It's a good report. You'll find it in [01:48:00] Hindi and English both. Mm. The second is, so I'm in a lot of pain these days, so I was trying to distract myself and I found a documentary and I don't know how I missed it. It, it came 12 years ago. It's called Blackfish. And I think I've seen
Abhinandan: this.
What's it about? You must
Shardool: have, it's, it was nominated for Bath, bath when it came in 21. It's about, uh, Orca the Sea Orcas in confinement.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shardool: And it's that SeaWorld one, right? Yes, yes, yes. I
Abhinandan: remember this
Shardool: about telecom. And it shows you why that specific orca killed. A trainer and three trainer two before that, and you should look at it.
And I would say that human beings deserve every misery and violation and imaginable that nature brings on us. We are such a '
Abhinandan: cause of what we have done. We
Shardool: have, we do so much yesi. You have
Abhinandan: keen competition in the pessimism department.
Shardool: Oh, I'm not pessimistic. I'm just nihilistic now. Just like we do [01:49:00] so much, so much cruelty in the name of just entertainment.
Just, just, just because we can. Mm. And although
Abhinandan: do do it within your species, but No, no, not, not that I'm justifying it, but I'm just saying. That the only other species that actually kills for fun, ironically yes, is do is orca.
Shardool: Yes. But we are not killing,
Abhinandan: we are exploiting. And of course I'm just No, I was just saying, I'm not saying we should kill orca for that, but you know, they say that nature.
What,
Jayashree: what are you propagating on this podcast? I'm just saying that these are taken a
Abhinandan: turn. I just suddenly, I, I read this like day before yesterday that, um, you know, like lions, hyenas, et cetera, they don't hunt for fun. Yes. They will hunt when they're hungry. Yes, yes. Otherwise, the only animal who hunts for practice.
Yes, for fun is, uh, the orca so, so fascinating. So
Shardool: I'll tell you the reason in, in fact, the documentary goes into it a bit. They're emotional in the limbic region of the brain is much bigger than ours. Mm. So they also feel [01:50:00] emotions and that's not the only species. The the primates do it also, although we are a primates.
But chimpanzees and bon boats also do this, but not for fun. That is for territory. No, no. They do it for fun also. Oh really? The chimpanzees rape too, for fun. Oh, I thought
Jayashree: dolphins are the ones that
Shardool: no dolphins do it, but do dolphins are way more smarter. They, if you look at the, what they do with puffer fish, which are puffer puffer fish, I think you see.
But anyways,
Abhinandan: my, my recommendations are very far away from all this. Uh, one is I thought it was an interesting editorial in The Economist on Margas remaking of universities could have dire consequences for higher education, innovation, prosperity, and freedom. I think it's a very important to read and I think if you read it.
If it's not your country, then you can look at your country in a more objective way. Because if even people who are well-meaning their politics is okay, gen U has a very negative connotation for many people. Yeah. And as do many. So if you just read this, you don't have a dog in the fight, you don't have a stake in the [01:51:00] game.
This is what happens when. So I think it's very interesting. And the second is, I heard this podcast, um, to get a interesting take on China, on the Ezra Klein show with Tom Friedman, why Trump could lose his trade war with China. And Tom Friedman gives his firsthand experience of having traveled to China over decades and understanding just how solid and robust their systems are.
Uh, but it also triggered, and I've mentioned this podcast, uh, this article in the past where the economists had predicted China's collapse twice, once in 2004, once in 2015. And right now we're in 2025 and China is still alive and kicking and very powerful. In fact, the 2004 article was called The Great Fall of China.
The 2015 article was called The Great Fall of China. Uh, and both the, except that the [01:52:00] 2004, the headline had a question mark and the 2015 article, it was a statement. So I just find it fascinating if you study American mainstream commentary on China, it is so influenced by its internal politics and what they wish China to be perceived as.
Yes,
Jayashree: exactly.
Abhinandan: So I just think it's a great exercise to go back and see. And I don't think Economist is a non-serious magazine. I think they have very smart people. They have very interesting and often insightful, you know, takes on things, but. When you just see China as an example of how, uh, western media, whether it's the British economist or whether it's the American, New York Times, has taken China's growth engine and their, it puts things in perspective.
But net net, dude, we cannot compete with that country. So I think that is something that the Indian audience must understand because hold [01:53:00] this thing now, it's, no, yeah, it's, it's, it's like, uh, you know, one of us stepping into the ring with Mike Tyson. It's, there's no chance. So we'd like to thank our wonderful producers, Ashish and Pali, our wonderful sound, recordist Anil.
Thank you, Charul. Thank you. Thank you Ram, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Je thank you to audience do subscribe. Hello. We'll leave you with this song. Have a great weekend. We shall. See you next week. Bye-bye.[01:54:00]
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