This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, Manisha Pande, and Shardool Katyayan are joined by Semafor’s business reporter Rohan Goswami and political consultant and federalism expert Tara Krishnaswamy.
On Trump’s flip-flop on tariffs and the escalating trade war with China, Rohan says: “Trump created tremendous panic. He got what he wanted. World leaders are calling and begging him... but a 90-day pause is not enough.” He highlights that, unlike the COVID-19 pandemic and the 2008 financial crisis, America’s current market chaos is a “self-inflicted situation”.
Manisha analyses the common threads between Narendra Modi’s demonetisation policy and Trump’s tariffs. Shardool adds, “Trump is famous because he is funny. He should be made the TV-President because he understands TV best.”
The panel also discusses the Supreme Court’s scathing remarks about the Tamil Nadu Governor earlier this week. Tara remarks,“The time has come to either define the Governor’s role – starting from appointment to powers – in a bilateral manner, or abolish the position and assign its duties to the appropriate authorities.”
Raman adds, “The battle between chief ministers and governors has increased tremendously since 2014.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Hafta letters: India’s litterbugs, Mumbai woes, counting cricket viewers
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Song: Money, money, money - ABBA
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements
00:04:48 – Headlines
00:15:34 – Trump’s tariff flip-flops
01:05:29 – Supreme Court on TN Governor
01:32:12 – Letters
01:48:08 – Recommendations
References
NL Sena - The impunity of India’s police
Locked up without trial: The story of Delhi riots FIR #59
Semafor’s World Economy Summit
President Trump’s cabinet meeting
Recommendations
Rohan
Tara
Raman
NL Documentary: The Price of Dissent?
Manisha
Piyush Goyal is right and wrong: Why Indian startups aren’t building the future
Johari Window and Donald Trump: The tariff tantrums of a man who thinks he knows
NL Documentary:The Price of Dissent?
Shardool
NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard
Abhinandan
How the War on Drugs got us….blueberrie
Loosetalk | Lucknow ki Tehzeeb Dikhaun
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Ashish Anand.
Production assistance by intern Pragya Chakroborty.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a Newslaundry podcast, and you're listening to NL Hafta
Abhinandan: News Laundry. Apf. Welcome to another episode of News Laundry Hafta. We are recording this on Friday, the 11th of April at 10 in the morning. Uh, before we start, I'd like to plug our series for which we still haven't reached the full top up of funds, which is the Impunity of India Police, a series of investigations we'll be doing across at least five states, if not more, with five journalists between News Minute and News Laundry.
It's gonna be a joint investigation. Uh, the pre-production has started, the research has already started, uh, and we have actually collected more than half, but half is still to go. And as you know, we don't rely on Sari ads or the ads of large corporations. We rely on you. We hope you can top it up. The budget for this investigation [00:01:00] is 13, like 40,000.
We have collected nine, like 31,000, which means we are about for lag short. I hope you top that up. There's a QR code flashing on your screens right now, and there's also a link in the show notes. Whether you are on a podcast platform or on YouTube or on the News laundry website, do click pay to keep news free.
'cause like we say, when the public pays, the public is served. Uh, let me introduce the panel in the studio today. Ul Ka. Thank you, Shaul. Hello. Long time have you been? Yes,
Shardool: I, I'm, I'm fine. Just a couple of weeks. Not long. Okay.
Abhinandan: Manisha Pande. Hello. Welcome. Manisha Ram Kal. Hello. And joining us at, at his end.
And we are grateful he has made the time. Is Rohan Go Swami, a business reporter from SEMA four. Thank you Rohan. Happy to be here. You're joining us from Washington, uh, before joining.
Rohan: You're from New York right now, actually.
Abhinandan: Oh, you're in New York, but you're based in but same time zone, same thing, same time zone.
But you're based in Washington, is that right?
Rohan: Uh, well, [00:02:00] I'm actually out of our New York office. Our biggest office, well one of our biggest offices is in Washington, so we've got a presence in New York for a presence in dc. And that we find generally covers us when it comes to covering all the big news out of the US anyways.
Abhinandan: Right? And that platform is SEMA four. I'm gonna ask you a little bit about that. But before joining SEMA four, Rohan was a reporter at CNBC. He covered technology companies, shareholder activism. His reporting has also appeared in outlets like the NBC News and NBC Chicago. And, uh, we would just like to tell everybody, and of course we'll remind you before we let him go.
That SEMA four has a World Economic Summit coming up, and there is a link to that summit in the show notes. So you can click on that and all our viewers, listeners, and subscribers in the US can consider if they can attend. But, uh, I was, uh, looking at your website, Rohan, before we get into what's happening in the us it, it says that it's different.
Semaphore is a platform, it's a transparent news kind of [00:03:00] organization. Now, because News Laundry is also a new digital native and we always like to learn from best practices from different organizations around the world. I just like to understand what is Transparent news, uh, as defined by SEMA four.
Rohan: Sure.
I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll say this right? I mean, I think. The goal of, of any good reporter is to remove their bias from the reporting, right? To be as objective as possible. But, but the reality is, as all of you can attest, right? If you know what you're reporting on very well, of course you have an opinion on it,
Abhinandan: right?
Rohan: And of course, in some way or another, it colors, whether that's the, you know, the experts you choose to talk to, the way the kinds of questions you ask your sources, or even the stories that you choose to sort of hone in on. And so the idea at Sfor, we have something called the sfor, because we're all about fun new words.
Raman: Hmm.
Rohan: Uh, is that you have essentially several different components to any bit of original reporting. So in a given story, or Kuma might have, first of all right, the hard news, right? What's actually happening, what's going on. If it's a [00:04:00] particularly sort of complicated or nuanced situation, we'll have a no more section where we get into a little more detail beyond the, just the core news.
And then we generally have a view from the reporter, right? So that's this reporter's opinion on. The news or a trend or, or an interview or whatever it might be. Um, not contenting ourselves with just one view. We also like to include what we alternatively call either a room for disagreement. That's a contra to our view.
Um, or a view from either another source, another reporter, another outlet, right? The idea being that news consumers are going to, to find this information anyways. And so if you can present it to them in a way that's concise and ideally makes it clear what's opinion right and what isn't opinion, then hopefully they walk away from that feeling a little bit better, a little bit happier about the news that they're consuming.
Abhinandan: I see. Alright. Interesting. So thank you for that. Uh, before we get into the discussion. Let's look at the headlines of the week.
Manisha: A [00:05:00] Pakistan born Canadian national and a key accused in the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks was extradited from the US After the Supreme Court there rejected his final plea to block the move.
He arrived in India this morning. Mm-hmm. And there's some photos that have been released of him. The, yesterday,
Abhinandan: yesterday evening. Yesterday. Yesterday. Yesterday evening. Evening us. Come on.
Manisha: Supreme Court held that Tam Governor are, and Ravi's decision to withhold ascent to 10 bills, some of which were pending since January, 2020 and refer them to the president after they were reenacted by the assembly was illegal and erroneous.
Abhinandan: We shall be discussing this in some detail. Yeah. We have a guest joining us, uh, on matters of federalism from Bangalore
Manisha: Trump's tariff Uturn. The big story of this week, ours, after Donald Trump's reciprocal tariffs took effect, the US president reduced the tariff on imports. For most countries to 10% for the next 90 days, global markets witnessed a severe dip ahead of the April nine deadline.
However. He increased the tariffs on China to [00:06:00] 125%, citing lack of respect and has been a very strange AI war that China has launched in America where they keep releasing videos with like Americans in sweatshops and also
Abhinandan: that one 25%. He then recalculated and said it's actually one 45% next morning. JP
Manisha: Morgan has revisited its odds for a global recession by the end of 2025 from 40% to 60%.
And meanwhile, the RBI in India cut the re rate by 25 basis point, lowering it to 6%. Indian stock markets on Monday witnessed one of their worst falls in 10 months. As sweeping tariff announcements by Trump triggered a global sell off the Bombay Stock Exchange census ended the day at 73,137 points down, but, um, we still were kind of better than the rest of the
Abhinandan: Yeah,
Manisha: stocks across the world.
Exchange. Leonard Police arrested the owner of a restaurant after a woman claimed that she was delivered non-vegetarian biani [00:07:00] instead of the vegetarian one during NARA three. And it turns out a lot of, so in this case, it was interesting. I saw a lot of right wingers go at go at the woman, because I think there's a little anger that everyone now can just become someone by doing all this on social media.
And so some Rightwing accounts only tweeted the menu out of this La Kebab restaurant, which doesn't have vegetarian bani. So I don't know what she ordered. And then they were like, why are you going to la Kebab parata to order something?
Abhinandan: No, also. And how is the issue that the police will arrest someone for?
It's
Manisha: disgusting that somebody's been arrested for this. I mean, how, I mean, forget the conspiracy angle of it. Even if someone has by mistakes and you on with bani, what does it warrant an arrest? Ridiculous.
Raman: Ridiculous. And in, I mean, I was expecting lot, many things, and one of them I expected, which I thought, uh, you know, Benglis are going to oppose it like hell.
Mm. Is the fish marketing and the SIII, I spoke it, spoke about it in the [00:08:00] meeting and I was telling Manisha came up, so we were a little answered, but I said, this will be the, I mean, last thing that can happen in Delhi, it. Okay, this will, and, and see, they could not move those, uh, I mean of course Bengal is resisted.
It didn't happen. But just about, uh, I think, uh, about a kilometer away, there's a place Gour, which had a very good fish market that has been demolished yesterday.
Abhinandan: Oh really?
Raman: Yeah. And that was also one of the others where Sierra Park guys used to go.
Abhinandan: So I think, I mean the entire, the ultra Hindu, Hindu is the two Chomo one and Chomo too, who were telling the Bengali that Ari Sha, so Chomo and Chomo too.
Very good idea. BJ P has of course, distanced themselves from both the Chomos saying, these Chomos are not our Chomos. The Chomos are working on their own because telling a mango not to eat fish. So Chomo and Chomo too, and all the other Hindu chomos. I have a [00:09:00] great plan for you next. Go to the Jori Garden or Punjabi bag and tell all the Punjabis and other Sikhs and uh, people from Punjab like me that don't teach tan chicken or bat chicken.
I'm sure you'll be with go to Then Punjab after that, go to AZA and say, don't eat Aza fish during. I'm sure you will, but I mean, I think you should really have a, that the BJP should have one little subgroup of chomos who go around doing these test test case scenarios. But yeah, it was disgusting.
Manisha: Doja, penals are all about fish.
Yeah. I mean it's such an intrinsic part of the country. It's so ridiculous. And this brings us to Ush Go's, uh, intervention at the start of Maku where he slammed Indian, Indian billionaire kids for opening ice cream and cookie businesses, calling them startups instead of focusing on the nation's tech growth.
You are a lot of backlash, even from those guys who suck up to the government usually. But I think what is [00:10:00] the one thing that businesses do need to flourish a certain sort of certainty. Yeah. And this is the kind of uncertainty you throw any business into, like this LA guy who's been arrested. Would you have ever thought.
Something like this group, you you're, this is such a desensitization of Absolutely. Although PGE girl will not call this a startup because it's food he wants, he wants semiconductor chips and all that. No, but
Abhinandan: also it was interesting to know that Asna in that, whatever, I think it was a money control event, said that actually AI is being developed very well in India.
The startup culture is very good. Yeah. Which was throwing shade at Mr. Pew Go and then, then later clarified that he don't mean to say that. So of it wasn't a tooth bomb falling over each other.
Manisha: Why is IL talking also like some Gen Z, no tooth bomb. The AI
Shardool: should think long term. He's a commerce minister.
Like
you need innovation and [00:11:00] research, government research. And not just that. Not just that.
Abhinandan: Just see the regulatory framework around. FDI like. Yeah. Mr. Modi and Mr. Shah do not want to make available, you know, the final beneficiaries of their trust and PM trust. Do you know when we took FDI, they wanted the passport details of the final beneficiary, which means at that time, they and his wife had to send the visa.
Are you madam? I'm going My passport details to some bureaucrats sitting somewhere in your country. I mean, the kind of rules that they have, my compliance, it has no value. It's like, what are you gonna do with that?
Shardool: Yeah. I mean like FDI comes later, I'm talking about fundamental encouragement to just research and ask question research that is not developed.
And the second thing is he's criticizing food things. Your government is most visible opposing food thing. Yeah, exactly. What the fuck? Like India, everybody's obsessed with food and marriage and you're
Abhinandan: saying don't start food and marriage startups. But I think actually Mr. Pge go and his annoyingly grating voice like that is the [00:12:00] biggest loud mouth of this government.
He payloads the most guy. Appears the most ignorant and then is backtracking most often. I know. I just, I just don't get what his trip in life is
Manisha: and just the snobbery of lecturing people when you haven't done your job. Boss
Raman: even, I mean,
Manisha: for once. I agree with all the, even
Raman: 2% of the budget also is not spent on r and d.
It's not even 2%. So, so, I mean, forget it.
Manisha: Exactly. I think you just, you just hang there. Somebody's even doing business India.
Raman: Mm-hmm. And they, if they'll do any research at all with some private entity just to benefit that, like for example, this CW
Manisha: ACT protests, several states witnessed protest against the W Act cleared by Parliament last week in West Bengal's.
Mu bad, the protest turned quite violent. Police vehicles were tossed in a group of protestors clashed with the police. Maha Banerjee said the act will not be implemented in Bengal. Meanwhile, the DMK has filed a [00:13:00] petition in Supreme Court challenge the act along with a Emily Amana Lahan. A Delhi court state, a magistrate's order to the police to carry out further investigation against BJP leader and state law minister KA minister for his alleged involvement in the 2020 Northeast Delhi violence.
Raman: My, one of my recommendation is, I mean, look, whatever he had said, and this affair was so essential in his case, and we have done one documentary mm, uh, you know, of 35 minutes, uh, story of four persons who were arrested Mm. In Delhi 2020. And you will see their roles such, there's one girl, young girl, very analyst okay, who used to write poems and all.
They, if four or five cases were slapped against them, they are already out in three, four cases there, one. Particular case that is of UAPA, where the honest is [00:14:00] on you to tell that you are innocent.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Raman: Okay. They are still in the jail, uh, rotting in the jail for the past four or five years. And this man is who ignited the entire thing.
Abhinandan: And, and also, and this what the Delhi Police argued against the additional chief judicial magistrates offer, uh, order saying that you have to proceed with investigation against, uh, Kamisha Delhi police argued that the acj M'S order was liable to be set aside contending that the trial court ed in directing further investigations when the complainant had initially sought the registration of a fire under section, whatever, and they basically said, bye.
We do not want to investigate him anymore. There is, there is no need. The police investigate otherwise, they're. Going into everyone. Account accounts, books. So pathetic. It was
Raman: such a categorical statement along with the DCP of the area who was standing behind him? He had said so categorically.
Abhinandan: You can [00:15:00] see it on camera. Yeah, it's on camera.
Manisha: Kal Ka on Monday moved the Bombay High Court seeking to quash an FIR registered against him in the Mumbai case of, for his satirical remarks on Ihin High Court extended its interim order protecting KA from arrest until April 17th. De such as saw the Chief RA Rahim was released yet again for 21 days by the HANA government.
He's been out of prison for 142 days in the past year.
Abhinandan: Really? What a, this is
Shardool: ridiculous, man, like anybody says.
Abhinandan: So, um, sorry. Right now, let's get into the discussion with our business journalist from Washington, who's in New York right now. The US president dominated headlines around the world, not just in the us where he's been dominating headlines for a while now. Uh, so Rohan, the context being the tariffs, the escalating tariff for [00:16:00] between China and US, and now apparently US tariffs and China are one 45%, if I'm not wrong.
Uh, that's right. It was one 20%. Uh, the stock market tanked. The dow zone tanked about 8,000 points. When the tariffs were announced, then it's bounced back 3000 points. And some
Manisha: people made a lot of money. Uh, yeah. In fact,
Abhinandan: I, I, I don't know whether she has acknowledged it or not, but there was a reporter in the US who, um, had put out a note of how what Marley Taylor, Taylor Green had bought just before the tar withdrawn.
Rohan: There is a joke that, that, you know, Warren Buffett is great. You know, all these fantastic investments are great if you really wanna make money, you know, and now there are ETFs and platforms that actually track this. All you have to do is, is follow the trades that people in Congress are making. They are unan good at, at making money and, and timing the market in a way that, I mean, geez, I wish I was that lucky.
So you don't have
Abhinandan: to [00:17:00] follow any big bulls tips. You just follow the tips of no, no, of Congress, no. Wall
Rohan: Street spends millions of dollars and thousands of hours putting out analyst notes and reports and research, all of which is very helpful for me. But if you're just trading, I mean, it's really hard to beat some of these guys' returns.
It's really incredible.
Abhinandan: Right. So after the dip of 8,000, up 3000, again, again, it's dipped, apparently. Uh, the, it did, yeah. The Indian markets have opened today pretty. Pretty happy. Uh, I think it's gone up by 2% or so, uh, after having initially gone down 4%, but other Asian markets dipped us as much as 8%. Yes.
So we were less, you know, hit by that. Although, I dunno how insulate we are from the overall outcome, but coming to, uh, what impact this is gonna have on the us. The rest of the world. And more specifically, uh, I was watching the news and a Fox business and some other channels, uh, actually spinning this as a master stroke.
This was [00:18:00] Trump's plan all along, which I, I was pretty aghast. Uh, some of the very creative interpretations of his quote unquote plan, is the US public buying it? Do you believe there is a plan? Uh, and is this that plan? And what will the outcome be? Because to move manufacturing to the US like many economists have already, not just economists, even people who cover basic business.
It takes anything from a decade or more to move entire, you know, plants and, and supply chains to the us. Uh, where will this lead in your view, right?
Rohan: So I guess the first part, the first part of the question, as with so many things with Trump, with politicians everywhere, it's somewhere in the middle right now.
I, I don't, this is my opinion and, and my colleagues have done some wonderful reporting on this as well. Um, I do not think that the president nor his top team, right, so that's Treasury Secretary Besson, that's Commerce Secretary, Howard [00:19:00] Lutnick and the US Trade Representative, a guy named Jameson Greer. I do not think they went into last week with some sort of overarching master plan about how exactly this was gonna unfold.
I think the reality is that, and my colleagues in DC have reported this out, uh, today and yesterday, uh, Trump created a tremendous amount of panic, right? He got exactly what he wanted in an abstract sense, which is world leaders calling him and begging him for his time, which he does enjoy tremendously.
Um, and some Republican operatives, a number of senators, right? Uh. Correctly and very intelligently, I think, pointed out to the president's team, look, you don't need to panic the markets anymore. You don't need to stress out our allies anymore. You've now created for yourself a tremendous amount of leverage.
Go out and use it. And Trump, you know, said, oh, wow, great. I'm so smart. I've created this leverage for myself. Let me go and use it. And so, so that was the genesis, right, of this flip flop, this 90 day pause. [00:20:00] The bigger question to be asking is whether 90 days is actually enough to cut trade deals with 75 odd countries.
Uh, even as, you know, the president shows and China show no signs of abating or pulling back from this trade war, right? We went from 84% to a hundred, 4% to 125%. Then we woke up this morning and suddenly it was 145%, right?
Raman: Mm-hmm.
Rohan: So even as he ratchets down the tension with our friends, he's ratcheting it up with China, which remains our largest, largest trading partner, or the US largest trading partner, I should say.
Right. Do the American people believe it? Yeah. Again, that depends on whether you voted for Trump or you didn't vote for Trump. You know, Trump voters have shown themselves remarkably immune to negative news about the president. He had the famous line, right? In 2016, I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and my people would still vote for me.
Song: Mm.
Rohan: And frankly, that's turned out to be true, as evidenced by the fact that he was elected again. Um, that being said, there is a level [00:21:00] of stress and latent panic in the conversations I've had with the people who represent or are very close to what we might call the arch archetypal Trump voter. Right. Uh, a unionized manufacturing quote, rust belt worker.
Mm-hmm. In that they are now starting to feel the impact of his actions negatively. So a major automaker, right. Stellantis, uh, the day that terrorists were announced, laid off 900 workers. Yeah. Right. These are unionized workers. The cynic in me, you know, you might argue that they took this, the tariffs as an opportunity to.
Execute some layoffs they were going to do anyways. But the reality is, when I talk to CEOs, when I talk to investors, if Trump hadn't hold back on this even temporarily, the level of job cuts across a variety of sectors would've been intense, would've been so severe
Abhinandan: when it comes to internally, whether he's getting the support he wants or not.
In Trumpland, of course, no one from the party disagrees with him in the rude fashion, but even a [00:22:00] mild disagreement with his policy is seen as a big deal. Now, two vocal. Opponents to this entire trade war were Elon Musk, who, who in that interview said that he should, there should be a zero trade arrangement in Europe and, and the US and Ted Cruz as well, uh, who kind of did not agree with how this was playing out, although they couched it in words, which was still very, um, uh, you know, complimentary to Trump.
Uh, did that have anything to do with him, uh, ratcheting it back a bit that he saw that there was dissent with No, he really doesn't give a shit about that. He like rides rock short over anyone there,
Rohan: you know, uh, I, my feeling is that, that the internal dissension, if anything, would've made him double down, right?
This is the guy who has learned one very important lesson from his first term. Never give him a scalp, right? You can see it an inch. It's seen as weakness. It's seen as, you know, sort of [00:23:00] slovenly and, and, and not appropriate. That being said, um, I would actually say that Republicans were very willing to push back on this once they realized that the markets were collapsing.
And more importantly, there was someone that wasn't Trump that they could blame for this. Hmm.
Song: So
Rohan: if you take a look at the reporting and the news and the sort of links coming out of DC over the last weeks, a lot of it is focused on one person, Howard Lutnick, right? Mm-hmm. The former CEO of, of Cantor Fitzgerald, who's now the commerce secretary and drove so much of this agenda.
And even though Howard Lutnick is executing the president's orders, right, the President Watson to do this. The leaks that have come from supposed Republican allies and lawmakers that are harshly critical of Howard Lutnick. That's simply because you're right, Republicans don't feel like they can publicly oppose the president.
Very few of them do anyways. Um, and so what do they have to do? They have to create some sort of bogeyman, right? Some sort of nexus for them to channel all their discontent about the president's agenda. But at the end of the day, if the [00:24:00] president says jump, most of these lawmakers are going to say How high?
Abhinandan: Yeah. In fact, I'd just like to play a little clip from his cabinet meeting, which was aired on television. Cspan, uh, of course recorded this, but just here, this is how his cabinet talks to Trump. This is.
Insert: The us um, Americans want you to be president because of your agenda.
Mr. President, on behalf of America's manufacturers, I want to thank you for standing up to the Chinese Communist Party and, and fighting for our, uh, main streets for our workers.
So the American workers, grateful Main Street is grateful for you.
What you have assembled in your vision is a turning point and an inflection point in American history, and so just being a part of that is the greatest honor. So thank you for that.
Abhinandan: That was Brooke Rolling's, agricultural Secretary. And other cabinet members.
So the cabinet meeting of Trump is, you're so great. You're so wonderful. I, and I mean it's embarrass. I would love to be admired
Rohan: to just walk down the street and have people say that to me that I'm so [00:25:00] wonderful and so amazing.
Abhinandan: It's embarrassing to watch, but before we, uh, come back to Rohan, 'cause I had a couple other questions of how this will pair in the us.
How many of you bought they, uh, day before when the market crashed? I bought Nifty 50. I bought Nifty 2,500.
Shardool: Manisha is, I'm totally confused. I
Abhinandan: large cap, which large I just going to index funds and mutual funds. Yeah, that's the best. But, okay. Uh, in India, the. Ministry of External Affairs. In fact, Ani had tweeted out, um, this report that the Emir refused to comment and they were asked when Trump's statement that, you know, world leaders are calling me up and kissing my ass and all that.
Yes. Uh, they were asked that, what is the Ministry of External Affairs take on this? Of course, I think they wanted to ask how we, one of the nations that kissed the ass. Of course. So, so the funny thing is,
Manisha: I had been screaming before that on prime time that we are the only country in conversation with the us Modi's the only guy calling him up and [00:26:00] talking and making sure that we are ahead.
So I was like, he really gave it away. 'cause one day later Trump was like, they're calling me up. They're like, sir, please. So they kissing my ass.
Abhinandan: So of course our numbers must have gone quiet on that. And of course they had other distractions, of course with the runner coming that was, do the headlines. But in India, uh, is this.
Issue at all. Do you think politically the bjps are all bothered? Does the electorate give a damn because we can't help it like 2008? Yeah, there's nothing we could do. Of course, there were some headlines that were managed at the time. I mean, I dunno if it's true or not, that para ji was given some credit that the Indian economies decoupled.
So the, you know, great recession or the subprime crisis did not impact us to the extent it impacted other Asian economies. Uh, I don't see that kind of narrative being pushed in the media. So should we assume that something like this doesn't matter? Also, not that it's such a big deal, but raising the, uh, tax, [00:27:00] uh, exercise on petroleum, even though, uh, you know, crude prices went down, raising LPG cri uh, prices the day this whole crash happened.
50
Shardool: rupees.
Abhinandan: 50 rupees. So, I mean, I, I guess it's safe to assume it doesn't matter here or is the BGP over confident?
Raman: No, I think, uh, if you. See when the war happened with Ukraine, even then, the way we paddled our economy and we, we went ahead, you know, with the, uh, friendship with Russia, the way we took, uh, you know, the advantage of the situation.
Mm. When the US was banning everybody. I think the India, I mean, uh, uh. Through its diplomacy acted very wisely. And we have really gained, you know, out of that crisis. So now there is another crisis now, uh, here also, I think India was pretty confident. If you see, uh, all those, the major exporters, whether it is electronic, when, when, when we talk of electronics, imports, uh, uh, [00:28:00] you know, exporting.
Mm. So this is Apple is here. So all of them had approached the government and the government said, relax. Uh, there's something in the pipeline. I mean, something was on, and they were very confident of it that this is going to happen. So, so, so the backdoor, uh, you know, talks with the us I think are on, of course, we don't have the, uh, you know, direct, uh, uh, evidence from the government.
Government hasn't spoken about it.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Raman: But as of now, whatever has gone, uh, so far, I think, uh, India is, uh.
Abhinandan: I mean, yeah, I think one thing that whether Shanker is to give, been given credit or Modi or whoever, that we managed to, we are the only ma major economy in the world that have managed not to take sides within the Ukraine, Russia, and still kind of remain in the middle gain from both sides.
Uh, same with us, China. We haven't taken any side but yet not been in the shit books of either of them. Uh, [00:29:00] I, I mean, I dunno how much of a, a master stroke it is, but at least we are not. DERs of those two economies. But that's
Manisha: always been us. I mean, you should thank Nero for that because that was our stated policy and they're just continuing that tradition.
So I don't think,
Abhinandan: good point, Nero,
Manisha: thank No, that's true. But you're right. I, it's not like we've, we've invented this. We've really just gone ahead with what we've always done
Shardool: because before the 71 war, Pakistan was an ally. We have never been an al Ally. But the thing is, we, our size benefits us. Mm-hmm. We have significant today, market and military power, population power now, intellectual power, whatever the degree of it may be.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool: But we do have it, which means we can. You don't be sovereign. That's the meaning of being sovereign. You don't have to pick sides. And I have to agree with one thing and like, we rarely praise this government.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Shardool: But they did make a lot of profit because they bought the Russian oil, which was banned, and India sold it.
Abhinandan: Right. [00:30:00]
Shardool: Why not do this that to Europe
Abhinandan: so that you cannot really, why not do this finger back, uh, Rohan? What do you make of it, do you think? In the, I mean, because, 'cause you do not get the, you're not bombarded by Indian media. So I get, in some ways it colors us, whether positivity much to my grandmother
Rohan: chagrin.
I, I don't, I don't consume enough. Yeah. She's in Calcotta. I don't consume enough Indian media for her taste. Yeah.
Abhinandan: So, you know, it colors us one way or the other. But do you think with this entire Trump insisting on a polarized kind of world or polarizing it, even if he doesn't want to, um, has India kind of managed to pull off walking the middle path?
Um, I. Successfully, or that's not how you read it?
Rohan: I would, I would say that, that we, oddly enough, the parallels between the US and the Indian economy give it a degree of insulation. What I mean by that is where the US is most vulnerable is its services, right? When you talk about what we actually make, we don't make anything.
We make nothing. What we have is intellectual property. So that's movies, [00:31:00] right? That's culture, right? We have services, whether it's legal or financial or whatever else, and we sell it to the rest of the world. And then you look at India and what are, what are two of the largest companies and two of the most globally influential companies in India, right?
Infosys and TCS, right? Mm-hmm. Neither of which are actually making a physical thing. But they are selling a service that isn't tariff, that is unter. Um, well, it is tariff, but you know, not in the, not under this curve regime. And so therefore, there is a degree of insulation, unlike say, a Vietnam, which has basically become the destination du jour for anyone de-risking out of China.
Unlike a Vietnam, unlike a Japan, which of course has a heavy, heavy auto export business, South Korea, and of course China. So in India's intellectual capital, which it has managed to build up right through, call it three, four generations of very difficult work now serves as a very effective buffer to sort of mitigate the, the, the tariff threat from the us Because keep in mind, India, [00:32:00] the last statistics I saw.
Only 18 to 20% of the goods that you guys export actually end up in the us. We are your largest single trading partner. Mm-hmm. But certainly not even close to a plurality.
Song: Mm-hmm.
Rohan: So 26% it actually, in my opinion, you know, look at what Apple is doing. Right. I think you guys just mentioned this, where there're there literally air lifting.
Yeah. iPhones out of India that are made in India now because of, you know, the, the Modi government's sort of push to make in India. Right. They're now being airlifted out of India to be sold in the US and yes, there's a 26% tariff, but that's a heck of a lot better than 145%.
Abhinandan: Although that is a secondary, uh, kind of, I mean Trump may come down on that because I know they've come down on Vietnam because some of these products are made in China, assembled in India and then exported to avoid that 1 24.
Yes. And even Vietnam is that go through that. It is manufacturing's finishing point. Yeah, it's a finishing point. So. Effectively wait, Vietnam tariff Ali, uh, you [00:33:00] know, is, is, uh, implemented, but the goods are made in, in China. The same thing for the Apple components, which are assembled here, but they're made in China.
So, I mean, if Trump really wants to tariff China, he may put that secondary tariff here if it's a pass through area.
Rohan: Very true. But, but the only thing that, similar to Abe, right? Modi and Trump have honestly cultivated a very meaningful relationship, at least in public. I mean, I do not think, I struggled to think of another foreign leader that could have been feted with a rally in Texas the way that Modi was five, six years ago.
Right. So that relationship, both because maybe stylistically they're similar in the way they approach their base, but also there's a genuine relationship there that has taken a lot of work to cultivate. And so if that actually protects India, if you look at the countries that have jumped to the front of the line.
First or second in line for these deals is Japan, which has had an ongoing conversation with the US government for months now, and a number of things. And Israel, and of [00:34:00] course Pvi Netanyahu is, is, you know, uh, very intellectually and, and personality-wise similar to Trump. So yes, of course, theoretically, logically there should be a risk to India.
Should this, you know, sort of tariff hopping thing continue in reality, is Trump going to go out of his way to punish a perceived friend? Probably not. Probably not.
Manisha: Hmm. I had a question of Rohan. Uh, for a lot of us in India, Trump's tariffs remind us of Modi's demonetization in that sense that here's a policy, which it's not really based on anything, and therefore it's kind of a curious thing to even critique because there's no sound economics to it.
There's no expert, there's no real policy. But the overriding sentiment that Demonetization sent out was that we are cracking down on terrorism. We are tracking down on corruption. And so even though today we have data that all the money came back, all that pain was for the thing. But there's a sense in people that, you know, he took the stuff [00:35:00] stand against corruption and no one had the balls to do it the way he did it.
Mm. So what's the overriding sentiment with Trump, with Trump's tariff? What's the emotional pitch, even if it
Abhinandan: didn't work, didn't do well? Even if, yeah.
Manisha: Well the demonetization, you know, we had that line actually, yoga.
Rohan: Yeah.
Manisha: So you know, the same thing with ramp. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, the
Rohan: demonetization thing is perfect because like demonetization, uh, they had plenty of time supposedly to prepare for this.
They talked about it for weeks and months. The date was maybe a surprise, of course, but then when it was actually implemented, it was total chaos. Hmm. And it was a total disaster. And it was a total mess. And that is almost the scariest part to American, at least the investors, right. These guys talked about putting in tariffs back in 2024.
They ran on it, they got elected on it. They said they were gonna do it, so fine. Everyone knows these tariffs are coming and then what do they do? They, they take a simplistic, I'm sure this went, yes, I hope this went [00:36:00] equally as viral in India as it did in the us. They take some ridiculously simplistic formula where they take the balance of trade, they subtract it against it, and then they divided it in half and they had some Greek symbols to make it look very intelligent and, and very, but it's nonsense, right?
That was what months of work produced and that terrified people because this, as many people have pointed out, is the most fundamental shift, the fundamental, fundamental economic shift that has ever happened in the US in terms of a self-inflicted out of nowhere. Let's just do it and for there to be such little thought that went into it.
Is terrifying. So for, you know, and again, I'm, I'm, I'm colored by sort of the New York finance crowd that I talked to that has been hit very hard by this. Like, like, I'm not going to the grocery store and paying 140% more for whatever goods come from China, right? Mm-hmm. Not yet anyways. Um, but the stock market, of course felt it right away and part of the day one panic, right?
The 8,000 point [00:37:00] drop in the Dow was, holy shit, these guys are just flying by the seat of their pants.
Song: Mm.
Rohan: They have no plan. They have no idea what they're doing. Which to their credit was a big shift from the first go around because everything else, if you look at the way they're handling the deportations or the way that they're going up to law schools and universities, they had a plan for everything else.
This not so much.
Raman: There is also,
Manisha: but what's the sentiment? Like, what's the big sentiment that people
Rohan: Well, it's split. It's split, right? The Wall Street folks are just losing their mind. They, they, they're, they're going and saying, because the stock market is whips, so this way and that way because there's no confidence.
Consumers don't feel the pain yet. But anecdotally, I've talked to, I. Four or five people today who are moving up purchase of cars because they don't want to, they're worried they'll have to pay more who are going out and buying new iPhones right now before the tariffs hit. So if the goal was sort of shock and awe, he's shocked and awe across the board.
The problem with, you know, the US is you have a really bifurcated [00:38:00] electorate, right? Where you have people who, no matter what he does, are going to hate him forever. He could, you know, parachute to their house, give them a hundred thousand dollars in cash and, you know, they would still hate his gut. They'd spit on him.
Then you have people who, you know, like we, we, like we were talking about earlier, he could slap him across the face. He could kick him while they're down. He could burn their house down and then he'd go, thank you Mr. President. You are such a masterful genius. I cannot wait to see what stage two of your brilliant plan is.
So the sentiment depends on who you voted for and where you live. Mm. Uh, in the sort of more rural areas. I, you know, having not been out to rural America in the last week, I can't speak to it with authority, but. His base is happy. His cabinet, his cabinet secretaries are not lying when they say the base loves him.
There
Raman: is, there is also a view that, uh, Trump's pose on for 90 days is not so much driven by the market, but by the fact that there is an increase, uh, sell of US sovereign bonds. Yeah. So, uh, so it's from 3.5, I think it has [00:39:00] gone to four point more than 1%. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, and that is very scary because these bonds, with these bonds, the US uh, economy, the budget, uh, you know, yes.
Uh, in, in fact, lemme just
Abhinandan: clarify to our audience before we get rohans in, uh, the treasuries are basically us way of raising debt. They sell treasury bonds and you buy a US treasury bond means you have lent the US money. It is considered the safest financial instrument in the world. The long-term US treasury bonds will have a higher return than the short-term US treasury bond.
And that has been the case. Forever. And the only time, what they call an inverted yield curve is the long-term bonds have a lower rate than the short-term bonds, which means people's view in the long-term of US economy is unfavorable. And whenever that's happened, it has been followed by a recession that is in seven of the last eight times, an inverted yield curve has been followed by recession.
So yes, today's paper also has reported that the bond, you know, people dumping the US treasury bonds in the market [00:40:00] led to the panic. Yeah. Rohan, please go ahead.
Rohan: So, so, uh, yes. So there was an inversion a few weeks ago or a month ago now at this point, uh, sort of. There is a great line from an American political consultant, you know, who says, you know, if I, if, if I believed in reincarnation, I originally thought, yes, I, maybe I wanna come back as a president, or I wanna come back as a pope or as a great baseball player, but now I know I want to come back as the bond trader.
'cause they intimidate everybody. You cannot lie to the markets. As my editor Liz Hoffman put it, you know, you cannot bully these guys. You cannot cajole these guys. The market never lies. And the bond traders are the really, the ones who have the best sense, the best pulse on the economy. So yes, there was, uh, a lot of jitters about something called a basis trade, which, you know, is, is it, it's, it's too, it's a little too technical to get into.
But basically the idea is you have hedge funds who, who basically bet against, it's an easy way for hedge funds to make money's a simple way to put involving [00:41:00] treasury yields. Now normally those yields behave in a predictable fashion, right. When, when people sell off stocks, they want to go into treasuries.
When people go outta treasuries, they wanna go into stocks. Very, you know, sort of conventional. It's a very nice relationship. That didn't happen here. And so that was on Wednesday, right? The day that he rolled everything back. And there was a lot of worry going into, as you just mentioned, when we sell these, you know, sort of longer dated treasuries, there are these things called primary brokers.
So there are people that actually have to buy these treasuries, whether they want to or not. They're legally obliged, required to do, and then they turn around and they sell to people. And so there's a lot of stress that, that this auction would go badly, that there wouldn't be demand. Now that didn't happen, that didn't materialize.
The auction was actually pretty, you know, there's pretty decent demand for it. But yes, there is a sort of. Popular theory consensus. I've seen some reporting on this that the bond market jitters coupled with the Republican lobbying are what led them to impose this 90 day pause, which again, I do not think is enough time.
They're going to [00:42:00] need to add more time to this to get these deals done.
Abhinandan: Right. Um, sorry, go ahead.
Shardool: I had to jump into a lot of things, so I disagree a bit with, uh, Han and you about the services of India sort of saving their face or the services work for US citizens, like it's the biggest bizarre, basically right?
Biggest market. We are insulated in the effect, we are not facing the immediate effect because no matter how you look at it, even if the. Manufacturing is down and everything. Us still manufactures 17% of the product manufactured in the world. India is just do it two and a half percent. Our main export is services.
When the US public, US companies face the brunt of this, it will affect the services sector. Sure. Right. And the second part I disagree with is the immediate effect has started because 70%, if you don't focus on China and he sort of pauses, quote unquote pauses for the rest of the world, it's like, I remember the matrix dialogue, like still using all the muscles [00:43:00] except the one that matters the, the Amazon sellers in US import 70%.
Yeah. From, yeah, Amazon would be hit big time. I have, there is the supply chain, which is very important because what happened post World War II was this system was built by us. Right. It took almost 50 to 60 years to bring down tariffs. These are not tariffs, like you said, like Forland Islands is one of the most strangest examples people don't live there.
But besides the funny things, which Nagi man does, the supply chain now. Works that capital and the market comes from the west, the rich countries and the hr, the manufacturing, the raw materials come, come from less economically developed countries. Mm. This system was built by us. Sure. And now they are trying to upend it.
So the result is, in a matter of few weeks, he has raised this tariffs, which has appended everything. And this gives [00:44:00] not only it harms the US and the world, nobody's insulated because everybody has to bear that branch US bonds besides everything else. And US dollar is the core base currency. The oil currency.
Abhinandan: Yep.
Shardool: When the bond yields go up like China, they, it's a rumor. It's not confirmed that China dumped $50 billion of treasury bonds in the market, which sent the in interest rates flying. Everybody's interest rates go
Abhinandan: up. Yeah. I mean, of course China and US have been in the Mexican standup forever. I mean, coming to your point of this system has been created by the us.
I mean, that of course is a larger picture. Yes. We've discussed that in the past, that when the quote unquote Washington consensus was trendy, in fact, I don't see Jadi and Joseph being commentators anymore. Between the nineties and the, you know, late two thousands there were so many books in defense of globalization, you know, globalization and its benefits, et cetera.
All those commentators who were major globalization advocates suddenly acquired. But, but that,
Rohan: well, whether they wanted, whether the Trump administration [00:45:00] seems not, globalization is not going away. Exactly. It's just not. Yeah. Yeah. So, and, and, and this, I think, strike your most funny point here, which is this is a fantasy land.
There is no way that you're going to see a return right to that post-second World War consensus, where the only reason America's manufacturing was so great is because. All the other factories didn't exist. We were the only industrial bombed out of existence. Exactly. Period. Period. There was no stupid people.
So of course we were gonna do great. We everyone benefits from a world in which there are, there, there are, well, let me pause on that. 90% of people benefit from an interconnected world where you can take advantage of each region's natural resources and populations to participate in the global market. I mean, this is, this is the fact the, the number of large conflicts has gone down, you know, almost directly like correlated to the increasing complexity and interrelatedness of global supply chains.
And that, [00:46:00] that says nothing about regional conflicts, which will continue to similar to the end of time. Sure. But the idea of like an all-encompassing war breaking out is hampered in no small part because globalization has become such a potent force. Yeah, yeah. Now on the India, on the India point about this, not about services.
Being hit by a recession. Yes, absolutely. I think that we're there to be a full market downturn then yes, India would start to feel the pain in those services, in those services businesses because you would have US corporates cutting spend, but they've already been cut. They've been cutting spend for year to, and there is an open debate in the US about whether we are headed for a recession or not.
I mean, obviously Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan have all upped their estimates, but there is still the Fed, the government is not interested in shooting itself in the face completely.
Raman: Mm-hmm.
Rohan: Uh, and that's, that's honestly the best. The only silver lining here is it's not covid, it's not the global financial crisis.
It's not even long-term capital management in the nineties. Right. This is an [00:47:00] entirely self-inflicted situation.
Abhinandan: Mm. And the, and it can be corrected also just as quickly as it's been caused. It, it doesn't have such deep rooted, you know, fundamentals that have gone wrong, but you know, it's late and we have to let Rohan go.
Just one last question I had and Bar wonderful colleague who is the furthest left from all of us. Uh, and, uh, her critique has always been that it doesn't matter whether Republicans are in power, the Democrats are in power. The people who run the US is Wall Street, big Pharma, uh, you know, big industry, the financial sector, et cetera, et cetera.
And the president is always subservient to their interests. Now, I'm not taking a judgment call on whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, but at least from what I see Trump is that level of, I don't give a shit that he really doesn't give a shit about what Wall Street thinks. Hmm. What. The pharma lobby thinks what any other major industrialist industry or financial lobby in the US think.
So in that, has he [00:48:00] managed to break that consistency in US politics that no matter who's in Power, wall Street and large, you know, financial interests run US administration. And he said, fuck you. I don't listen to anyone.
Rohan: I mean, uh, you know, I'm a big believer in the horseshoe theory of politics, which is the far left and the far right at, at some point they come together and they're basically the same.
So it's not just the leftist thought in the US anyways, that big pharma be yes and no, right? I mean, bank CEOs, former CEOs, big business, they couldn't get Biden on the phone. They couldn't even talk to the administration. I mean, one of my colleagues actually looked at the meetings that the Biden administration took with top CEOs.
It was a fraction, it was a fraction of the first Trump presidency. Right. So he is a putatively pro-business c uh, president that likes to be near CEOs. These are the people who never would've hung out with him when he was just a New York real estate guy, and now they only need to hang out with him. But, [00:49:00] but you're absolutely right.
Is Big Pharma calling the shots at Health and Human Services? No, it's not. And that's a big stressor for big pharma. Hmm. Are is the financial industry is sort of plugged in and wired up as they want to be. Unless you're a crypto bro. No, not really. But the flip side of that is reality bites. Right. So whether or not Big Pharma has the level of influence it used to have when there is a measles outbreak in Texas as there is right now.
Yeah. Because in part because of this anti-vaccination wave that for some reason has sprung up in the us. Uh, people will die from disease anyways, and so big pharma will, because they make the medicine find a way to ert control. Sure. He, Jamie, he may ignore Jamie Diamond or Brian Boyan, the ceo, EO of Bank of America.
But when the economy starts to teeter, he will to, to listen. He's going to do what they Yeah. Is gonna do what they wanna do. There's, there's in, so whether or not they're the room or not, it doesn't matter.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But, but I, I just wanna add, before [00:50:00] many of our subscribers point out that there is this whole anti-vaccine, uh, you know, wave sweeping America, like Ron said, for some reason, some would insist that the reason is Mr.
Kennedy. Uh, but,
Rohan: but there've been two and many would, and, and, and they, they would not necessarily be wrong.
Abhinandan: Right. Uh, but Rohan, once again, thank you so much for joining us. I'd like to remind our audience, there's a link in the show notes. Uh. Upcoming World Economic Summit, uh, the landing page of that, it would lead to, you can have a look and see if it interests you.
Uh, and before we say goodnight and thank Rohan, do you have a recommendation that could enrich the lives of our listeners and viewers?
Rohan: Uh, vaguely topical, uh, and a little old, but I'm finally getting around to it. There's a fantastic book, empire of Pain, which I've just cracked open last night. Uh, detailing Purdue Pharma.
Yes. Uh, the company that brought America Oxycontin, big Pharma. There we go again.
Raman: Mm-hmm.
Rohan: Um, it is [00:51:00] fascinating to actually have a great reporter peel back how interconnected what some might consider the oligarch class has always been in American history. If you go back and actually read this, it's three generations of influence.
Uh, the Sackler family. That they managed to project across the arts, across education, all thanks to this, you know,
Raman: very
Rohan: not great thing, which was Oxycontin. Mm-hmm.
Raman: So
Rohan: I wouldn't necessarily it say it is a fun read, but uh, it's a helpful reminder that at the end of the day there's history always repeats itself.
There's nothing new about what we're seeing right now.
Shardool: The Sackler family.
Rohan: Yes, the Sackler family.
Abhinandan: Thanks so much, Ron. Hey guys, have a good night. Thank you. I hope you sleeping well. Thanks guys, later on. Thank you.
Rohan: Thank you. Take care guys. Alright.
Abhinandan: Right. Charul, you were saying
Shardool: just two minor points. One was.
Of all the talks we have about Trump and what can counter him, like all of us [00:52:00] know who has dealt with like college crowd or you can't counter crazy with rationale. This guy is nuts. And his wife did start cryptocurrency, by the way. I just pointed to it that before his swear in ceremony. So he's essentially a crook scam and he's behaving like a mafia boss, like pretentious mafia boss.
'cause mafia bosses are also more, you know, street savvy than him. The second point is, and it's sort of a philoso philosophical point, because when I was thinking about this issue last week, and we had to discuss this globalization essentially in my head, maybe I'm wrong, but, uh, you know, a sharing of assets which was holded by centuries of colonialism, like slowly you share your prosperity when you start the sharing process, what happens is like when the privilege has to be shared or the asset has to be shared, that two things are bound to happen.
Inevitably will will happen. One, initially it will ha benefit the privileged one.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Shardool: Because they are already, you know, in [00:53:00] control of the power or asset, whatever it may be. And the second thing is the haves will start to resent, have nots when the sharing reaches a crescendo, when it crosses the second level.
Sure. And that is what's happening to the globalization. Every Western power. Now the population resents that they do not have that many privileges. NHS of UK is going bankrupt. And not just
Abhinandan: that, you're absolutely right. The, the resentment in America, if you just see the macro picture and you see the data, it is very hard to explain that you still have about 25, 20 6% of the world economy.
Mm-hmm. Uh, you have the richest, you know, country, significant nation in the world. You're be, but yet, and we're in human history, but yet there is this major resentment and, you know, a very instructive conversation I had over last weekend, a childhood friend of mine who is as liberal as they get, uh, of course Indian Jar grew up here, moved to the US when we were, I think 19.
He's been there since, uh, worked on the [00:54:00] financial sector. And he was, you know, he says, I really like Trump and I was trying to reason with him that I've known you forever and I. So I just was listening rather than judging. And what I got is that people like him, he quit his job, he started, you know, a startup and he said on Biden's time the pandering to not work of, for things that were not productive.
The cultural war, like in India, it's, it's never an issue, you know, it is just people like us sit around and discuss some of these issues. But the votes are still cast on cus mili ua or the hardcore religious Yeah. You know, or cast bigotry. So, but there, the cultural war were real. He said for small entrepreneurs like me who have, you know, worked on Wall Street for 20, 25 years, a mass significant wealth.
I mean, they have not wanting anything but putting all that money into an enterprise. He's saying just the culture of performance has been cons [00:55:00] completely replaced by the culture of wokeness, openness, and. So I was trying to get an insight into his psychology, like why would he think Trump is a good idea?
And what I, what I realized is that, I mean, I mean I, I, maybe that's just one perspective, but it is a perspective that in the second term, Biden had, and I think some, the reason why he had such few meetings with CEOs was because I don't think he was fit to even talk to people.
Yeah, yeah.
There was no agenda.
You know, everyone was running a mockup bit like UPS two, second term, you know, whoever wanted to talk on cultural, you know, was, was going to town with that. Someone was going to town with economic issues. Whoever was pandering to the pharma lobby, there was no cohesive message. It's
Shardool: all, it's all a smoke screen,
Abhinandan: so there was no cohesive message.
Yeah. So I think that kind of pissed people off and Trump has brought all that together. So even though they say he's a despicable human being, and one more thing that he said as a personality is concern to make it as a real [00:56:00] estate mogul in New York. In the seventies, eighties and nineties, New York was at its worst crime.
Crooks tough guys to hold your own against that you cannot be a softie. He is many of your liberal media and he gives your treat him as some privileged softie. He said he may be insane, he may be an idiot. He is
Manisha: privileged,
Abhinandan: but of course, but he's not Ed softie like he says. He says, you cannot get one of these Rothschild children or something who have lived in the.
To make it in the real estate world in New York, you'd be killed overnight to make it in the New York at that time. You have to be really tough and he is tough. That was the kind of, I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I'm just putting a point of view across. May I say something Trump? Sure, please.
Shardool: So what your friend said with respect, I would say it's like tail bagging the horse.
The, the argument. Mm. Because these are selective interpretations of Trump's business model. He bankrupted himself seven times in [00:57:00] the, the, the lale. He bankrupted a casino in. Yeah. Which is which because casino know lost ity, which is, he talks about the art of the deal. He didn't write the book. Hmm.
Manisha: So many else did.
Also, you must watch the movie Apprentice where they actually show who his influences. Yes. With a very famous or infamous lawyer. Yes. Roy Cohan.
Raman: Yes.
Manisha: Who was there during the whole McCarthy. And he, some of the ruthless things that he learns are actually from Roy, who he really fucks over. By end of the movie.
Abhinandan: Yeah. He has no friends. In fact, yeah. This whole thing that he'll, he's a friend of Modi. He's, he'll throw anyone under the bus. Yeah.
Shardool: He has to, his, his personal counsel was in jail who was against him now doing podcast. I I For what? For campaign money fraud. Because he paid the campaign money to his mistress when his wife was pregnant.
This guy has no limits. But the point is he, he's famous because he's funny. He understands tv. Yeah, exactly. He understands TV and America is a nation obsessed with television, television,
Manisha: reality. TV show. Yeah, exactly. [00:58:00] It's reality. It's the perfect reality. TV
Shardool: he was shown for, I remember as a kid, the first season of the app Apprentice.
I'm like, this is interesting. What's happening? And also,
Abhinandan: and the thing is, and you can make out, he's obsessed because even if he has nothing to say, he wants to hold a press conference every day and just say, be on tv, saying something to make the headlines, even if there's. Nothing of consequence to say, this is why Ted is watchable.
Shardool: That's, yeah, he's very watchable. He's intelligent. It's fun. It's fun. Just, just make him the TV president. He'll be happy. And the nation would be fine. That nation. But the problem with the base in us now is it's so divided. The people who watch Fox News don't consume any other media.
Abhinandan: No. Also, I think I was watching, um, their business channels, the right of center business channels.
I mean, dude, they put even, I'm not joking. They put, um, NACA and Raul Am Amish. They're going to shame.
Manisha: Really?
Abhinandan: Yes. Oh my God. You know what? But I saw a lot of
Manisha: the experts who were coming on were criticizing. Yeah, yeah.
Abhinandan: But the anchors, you have to see what this, what's the big deal if we have to lose when we go to [00:59:00] war?
Americans have sacrificed so much. This is also war. It's just not a conventional war. I mean, it's, it's gone to a level, which what you're saying, it's just so polarized that it's, it's completely amazing. But on this
Manisha: wokeness thing, I think it's very difficult for us to understand. But there is this. Very strong culture war that's happening.
Because we don't have those issues. We don't have Exactly. We're not really, I mean, we do have those
Abhinandan: issues, but they're not significant in numbers. They're not significant
Manisha: in numbers. And it's actually, I'd say we don't, 'cause we're
Shardool: still kind of, we are different society. And may I say what you're talking about, the experts.
See, that's mainstream media. Nobody watches that. They, they stopped watching it 10 years ago. Oh no. I think that's over. I'm
Abhinandan: saying around Fox. Yeah, Fox, yeah. Lot of you know other ones. But complete that thought that you were saying. Yes,
Manisha: but I was saying that, yeah, it's very difficult for us to fathom why it's such a divisive
Abhinandan: kind of a
Manisha: thing.
But a lot of people, it really impacts them there. Mm-hmm. The wokeness culture is, it's almost, I mean, people are very repulsed by it.
Abhinandan: Yeah. And
Manisha: I think it's difficult for us to understand it [01:00:00] because we don't have that,
Abhinandan: but
Manisha: it's a reality. I don't think we can just brush it aside and say, yeah.
Abhinandan: And even some, you know, conventional liberal folk.
I mean, I know so many people, they don't speak up about it, but they, they saying, I don't like sending my kid to school because some of the stuff that they're teaching in school, I don't approve of it. Mm-hmm. And, and if I say anything, I, I'm considered a, a trumpeter. But, uh, but it is, yeah, it's,
Raman: I was told, uh, just like Modi Trump is also, uh, you know, being worshiped, uh, in his country.
When he goes to an auditorium, the photo of Christ will be smaller. His is gonna be big. Yes, I will. And somebody in the US Yes. Yes. Somebody in the US told me. So whenever he goes to the auditorium, Christ will be a smaller one. His picture is going to be bigger one, and then the, each meeting first begins with the, with a song in praise of him.
Yeah. So, so he's having that on his
Abhinandan: birthday to have a military parade. Who the hell does, I think it's gonna cost 90 million or something. Where is Dodge? You know, about [01:01:00] making things. So
Shardool: eventually start calling him Messiah and like the, the messenger of Christ. But. I'll, I'll give you an analogy which will make you understand the wokeness issue in, in essence, do you remember the, which was the actor?
I forget. Bollywood actor names. Yeah, so Sean Sing Rafu Craziness. Now people like us were like, what the hell is happening here? But people were crazy about it. These issues were pent up by these culture walls. And like Alex Jones was a big,
Abhinandan: yeah,
Shardool: big player in that before he was disbanded by the court. And there are many, many other, these issues are propped up so that the public in United States do not, you know, make a consensus in voting terms on issues which are pertinent to them like, which is a very common one.
And I mentioned it before, many people would've the shooting issue every day, school shooting. And that never becomes a electronic issue 'cause pharma issue, he just gave an example of the Sackler family and there are many, many issues. Inherently, which legitimize big money corruption in US [01:02:00] government.
Mm-hmm. And these things are designed so that public doesn't talk about them because easy to blame someone else rather than working on it. Inherently we have same issues like this.
Abhinandan: Yeah, of course. That's one of the biggest conundrums that the big majority of the US want gun control, yet it never gets done by the party.
Yeah. But let's move on to the next issue. Uh, but before we do that, I'd like to remind everybody to pay to keep news free. So there's a QR code flashing. This is your subscription chance because we don't take any ad money. And as you've seen advertising, in fact, now, uh, Mr. Uh, Stalin has also understood the value of giving ads to deli newspapers.
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Shardool: Okay, I'll do that in Hindi because like my creative mind works in Hindi.
Yes. So.
[01:04:00] Insurance.
Abhinandan: Very nice. Excellent. Love the pitch. I think Isha has a pitch.
Manisha: No, I was gonna say that the best ad that came out this week was on Midday front page by Rahul Kernel, the famous guy who led the charge against Kal camera. Beat him up. Oh. Uh, beat him. Brought the whole comedy club down. Uh, he put up. And add, uh, celebrating humanitarian ji's birthday.
His foundation, Raul and Cannel Foundation has listed a number of things that they would do on humanitarian JI'S birthday with lasting impression, dog food distribution all over Mumbai. Um,
Abhinandan: are you serious? Yeah. Yeah. It's, and this ad was taken by midday, by the newspaper that was reporting how he led this mob.
I
Manisha: wonder if they even reported on that. But [01:05:00] yeah. Ration, kid distribution and, um, happy birthday. And the manji, I love Mumbai RA Canal Foundation. He has a foundation, apparently
Abhinandan: shallow foundation. The foundations are strong. You see, that's the thing about India. So you can pause this video while you pull out your phone and scan the QR code, or click on the link in the show notes and contribute to good journalism, independent journalism.
Free from the influence of large corporations or advertisers. Al I shall, sorry.
Manisha: Or Raul Canal. Or Raul Canal.
Abhinandan: Exactly. You know, wonderful foundation such as his, uh, and I'll introduce our next guest, who is Tara Krishna Swami joining us from Bangalore. Thank you, Tara.
Tara: My pleasure. And are you at the
Abhinandan: studio of our wonderful partner organization?
The News Minute?
Tara: That's right.
Abhinandan: Wonderful. Am I now
Tara: familiar Studio?
Abhinandan: Yes. Please say hi to the gang over there. Uh, to our audience, uh, would like to formally introduce Tara. [01:06:00] Tara is a Bangalore based political consultant. Gender and civic activist. And she also works on federalism, which is a main area of focus for her.
She co-founded Political Shakti, which is a non-partisan collective dedicated to increasing women's representation in Indian state Assemblies and the Parliament. And she has also been the co-founder of Citizens for Bangalore. It's a grassroots movement addressing urban governance issues. So thank you Tarara, for joining us.
I let, um, you know, you just give us the context of this. Governor and Chief Minister Battle, which is not dissimilar to what has been happening in Kerala, Punjab, and even New Delhi, west Ngal, west Ngal. Uh, but there, Mr. Ravi has taken it to a different level, not just with his public utterances and his behavior and conduct at some events where he, and this, you know, the state cabinet is together, [01:07:00] but even in withholding bills.
So can you give us the context of this culmination of the Supreme Court order, which is not the first, and do you think this will make any difference where past observations and order the Supreme Court haven't?
Tara: Yeah, that's a great question, uh, about the past observations in particular. Um, so this has been, this drama has been playing out actually since 2020s.
This is the irony that it's been playing out since the previous, uh, government and tha prior to the current government, which was elected in 2021. So this is the DMK government and prior to this was the A DMK government, which was elected when JTA was still alive, and she was a chief minister until she passed away in 2016.
And their tenure continued until 2021 and all the 10 bills for which the, uh, there has been a court pocket veto is what, uh, they call it, uh, in, in that parlance, uh, basically withholding of [01:08:00] ascent, uh, indefinitely, which they're not allowed to do, but kind of dancing around that ascent by. Uh, uh, you know, not acting on the bill or sending it back for clarification, but then holding it, uh, uh, after the clarification or continuing to hold it after the, uh, assembly passes it, not sending it up to the president.
And these cases have been filed and every time they come up to the Supreme Court for hearing again, you know, making motions of, uh, uh, if acting on the bill, but not, uh, acting on it. So, uh, since that has been going on, and interestingly, all of these bills have to do with, uh, either appointments to universities, um, or, you know, other kind of appointments that, uh, the state government is being prevented from, uh, making.
So when it came up to the, uh, when the hearing finally, uh, happened, the Supreme Court seems to have, uh, and [01:09:00] the judgment is not uploaded yet to my knowledge, but the Supreme Court seems to have clipped the, the wings and reminded the governor of, uh, his, uh, charter and, uh, not to breach that charter, uh, which is to define that ascent needs to be given within a fixed time.
And even if it were to be sent up to the president, it needs to happen within fixed time. So, uh, that's the summon substance of that. Uh, now to your other question of, uh, certainly union governments over. Decades. And it is not just this government. Uh, in fact, I think the Vaj PA government in 2000 had appointed a commission under, uh, justice Vanta, who is a bangalorean
Raman: Mm.
Tara: Who had recommended this. And that commission had tabled the report in 2002 again when, uh, Mr. Vapa was still prime minister of the country and recommended that, uh, uh, term limits be set for, uh, how [01:10:00] long the governor can drag the ascent issue. And that was not acted on. So not only repeated judicial recommendations, uh, which have been made over decades for this very issue of ascent and, and bounding, the period within which the governor had to give has to give ascent.
That has not been acted on. Even commissions and committees that have been constituted by the prime ministers themselves that have delivered reports either within the tenure or beyond, they also haven't been acted on. So certainly the union government has not been acting in good faith as far as this particular issue is concerned.
Abhinandan: Um, Rama, you've been observing this for a long time. You've had a accomplished a long career in, as a journalist. There have been Supreme Court orders and observations when it comes to the lefthand, governor Delhi versus the Delhi government, the K gal government, and suddenly all that animosity vanished.
Now with, again, today there was an ad with Modi and the Naji and the Chief Minister [01:11:00] of Delhi all in one ad. Um, the Punjab government versus the governor. Also the court, I don't recall whether it was Supreme Court, whether it was a Punjab HAI court. Will this mean that there is gonna be any change? And while this government no doubt has, uh, taken it to a level, or at least that's what we hear, is that the case or was the misuse of governors?
It was always there, but was it at this level earlier when you were covering politics, let's say in the nineties, early two thousands, et et cetera?
Raman: No. Earlier, uh, say before 2014, uh, we never witnessed, you know, uh, this kind of presentness Mm. That we face, uh, you know, post 2014 mm. And, uh, and I feel that.
Whatever decisions that are coming out from the Supreme Court, even that is not going to better the spirit of all the future [01:12:00] governance that this government is going to appoint. You know, in the states, uh, maybe, uh, the prisoners will vary, uh, in West bring all. If you see, uh, the. The president, vice president when he was the governor.
Mm. You could have seen the level of, you know, um, um, yeah. The bitterness that, uh, correct. Between this. Correct. And some the things he said was, so yes. I mean,
Abhinandan: it was as if the governor didn't want to get along. Yes.
Raman: And, and, uh, as, uh, the Supreme Court has decided, uh, about Ravi, uh, about Ladu, if you see in Kerala, the case is coming up next week, I think.
Mm-hmm. In Kerala also, there are about 10, uh, um, seven, eight, uh, you know, bills, uh, which are pending for the, uh, uh, you know, this ascent of, uh, the governor. So I, I, I, we did not witness so much before 2014. There were, uh, some, uh, problems. The governor is going to send it to the bill to. [01:13:00] President, then the president will send it back.
But, but every time when it, it was sent back, uh, you know, uh, to the government, basically there was a consensus and it always became an act. Mostly it became an act. There were very few. If you, uh, I don't have the data right now. If you see the, you know, conflict between governor and, uh, chief minister, the chief ministers with the Supreme Court, you won't find many as many.
The increase increase is tremendous after 2014. So, uh, I think, and, and the worst part is despite the Supreme Court orders and observations, this just, that is on the governors carry, carry on. I mean, that's, that's
Abhinandan: the, there's no shame. I
Raman: think that there is a clear direction, uh, from the center that you need to create problem.
Only then you will be, uh, your performance will be, look at the prayer. We are going to do a story. I mean, you spoke about the [01:14:00] left hand governor of Delhi, so I think let the a hundred days be over
Abhinandan: of
Raman: the present government. So we will do a story. Definitely. I mean, didn't you notice that in the previous government with up, he used to.
Or, uh, issue, I think one or two, uh, I mean, public statements than two, more than two, uh, you know, press statements. Yeah. Uh, yeah, press statements. Clearly very, uh, telling the app government that they are not performing well, you know, on the grounds. Hmm. He himself used to make those, uh, he used to travel and he used to, you know, uh, make news that, uh, the water is not coming in this locality, which is not his work.
Hmm. This is not the left hand. Now, now seeing in the past one month, ever since this government has come in, how many times he has, he has gone to the, you know, the locality and how many press statements he has issued. Sure. So, so I think, uh, right, it's, the message is loud and clear despite the Supreme Court, uh, this year.
Abhinandan: I mean, it's [01:15:00] unfortunate. I'd like to come to Shaul for his views, but before that, Tara, um. Two specific questions since this is, you know, somewhat of a, you're an area expert on such issues. A often we see op-eds that the role of governor should be abolished. Uh, is that just a knee jerk reaction? Does it actually serve a check and balance?
So it generally just serves as a roadblock. Uh, and B, is there a provision that a governor cannot be slapped with the contempt of court? Like for example, if someone like us disobeyed direct previous order of the Supreme Court, there is no doubt it would be treated as contempt of court. Somehow the governors are getting away with clear contempt of court, but they're not slapped at contempt of court.
Is there a legal reason for that? Or it's just the Supreme Court not wanted a court as a constitutional crisis? And B, is there any benefit of, of, of a governor's position? Or is it just a drain on resources? Do we need to dodge it?[01:16:00]
Tara: Yeah, we certainly need to bring governors under the, I'm not a, a lawyer, but we certainly need to bring governors under the same judicial purview that, uh, you know, the, the rest of the, uh, authorities have, uh, in terms of, uh, being subject to contempt of court. And that is not happening today for sure. Uh, in terms of abolishing the role of the governor.
See, you have, uh. The way the governor's office came about clearly is to do with colonies. Mm-hmm. And the need for a remote government like, uh, run out of London to be able to monitor the colonies. And this happened at a time when, uh, you know, the provin, the provincial governments were not elected in. Uh, and that is in fact, ironically what the Congress fought against, uh, the Mongo chimps for reforms.
And, uh, uh, the provincial government, uh, governments were not elected, and therefore you needed somebody sitting in the [01:17:00] provinces that could report back to the crown as to what was happening. And, you know, keep it under their thumb. But, uh, for the constituent assembly, had extensive debates and is their, in their wisdom, especially around, uh, governing the country as a single unit.
And we must remember when we go back to the constitutional constituent assembly debates that India did not look the way it does today. They were still trying to integrate provinces, uh, you know, through both persuasion and through, uh, in a sense conquest, right. By sending the army in there. Hmm. So those were the fears that, uh, also played in their minds as they decided that you need the position of a governor.
Now, the issue, you have to go one of two ways in my opinion, which is today you are in a, in a, uh, quasi federal setup and you are, you are no longer worried about territorial integrity the way you are worried about them. At least they're dramatically reduced. And it is also very clear if I look at it, that while India has had repeated [01:18:00] instances of executive overreach.
For example, you have the executive trying to bulldoze homes even before the judiciary, uh, you know, weighs in and says that something is a crime. Right? Even on the, when an FAR is filed, they go around acting on it or an encounter. What is that? And you have had union government overreach into state issues over and over and over.
So, you know, whether it's the NEP, the need in so many cases, just dismissing of elected governments, you have union government overreach. What you don't have is state overreach. So it is not that the states of the country are trying to legislate where they shouldn't be legislating it. Is the union trying to do that?
Hmm. It is the executive trying to do that, but not the legislative of the states. So therefore, I would say that the trust deficit is towards the union, is towards the governorship. It is not towards the states. So time has come to make one of two choices. Either you, well, you define the powers of the, everything from [01:19:00] the appointment of the governor to, uh, his or her term, and powers to the, uh, termination or the impeachment of the governor.
Either you define that in a way that it is bilateral. Mm-hmm. Today's issue is that the governor's unilaterally chosen by the union government in all the matters. Concern both the union and the states. The union alone is choosing why should the election commission be decided by the union alone? Why should the finance commission appointments be decided by the union alone?
They are not trying to serve at the pleasure of the union. They are trying to, they are trying to apportion funds between the states and the union.
Raman: Hmm.
Tara: Similarly, they are trying to conduct elections across the states and for the union. Similarly, when it comes to governors, why not have the same electoral college where, uh, by, you know, wherein, uh, the pre, the similar vote to what we have for presidency.
Mm. And similarly, since the governor, himself or herself functions at the behest of the Council of Ministers, the Council of Ministers can choose to, uh, recommend to dismiss the governor. So whether it [01:20:00] comes to term, whether it comes to termination, whether it comes to appointments, whether it comes to, uh, you know, uh, their powers, either you have to, well define it or you have to say, we will abolish the post of the governor and rest those duties.
And constitutional experts have weighed in and they have said some of the duties can go to the speaker of the house. Some of the duties can go to the chief secretary. If there is a breakdown of, uh, law and order, the chief secretary can choose to, uh, you know, ask for president's rule, uh, or they could go, go to the election commission even in certain cases so that the constitutional, uh, body of constitutional experts can decide where to apportion the powers.
But the time has come to make one of two decisions. Either you, uh, you know, prescribe and circumscribe the office of the governor very clearly from appointment to powers, to term to impeachment, and or you decide to, or you abolish the, uh, the role of the governor and you, uh, subsume it within the other existing rules.
Continuing this way is untenable, [01:21:00]
Abhinandan: right? And also, every time
Tara: a state goes to court, it is actually a constitutional crime. We don't realize it, but that is what it is. Exactly. We're going against a constitutional body.
Abhinandan: In fact, I was just about to say that every week when we read the headlines are the, we read between 10 to 13 headlines.
That is the number. We keep at least three of them, and sometimes way more are about what's happening in the Supreme Court. In a matter that concerns one of the governments. So the fact that the courts have to weigh in repeatedly on governance issues because the center and the state cannot seem to get long or the police is, you know, overreaching or the Eds overreaching today, the ED whining about, you know, are rights are being impeded and the Supreme Court has held rights to the people who you're going at.
So, um, I, and also the, to the point that Tara made, which is the, the worst case scenario, governor's rule, right? President's rule a complete breakdown. I think on that of the last few years, the bar has been set so high that [01:22:00] unless there is a catastrophe, which is threatened to wipe out a significant percentage of the population, if you go by president's, I mean the, the BA has been set too high.
MANIPUR did not warrant president's rule. RA did not warrant president's rule. Once those two are seen as the, the bar, then it is very unlikely anyone would need to call for President Rule. But if these two were not, I think
Manisha: money pool was a case where you really needed it because there was such a, it was, was a state of civil law.
There was such a, there was such a dis uh, I mean there was lack of trust completely when it came to, it
Raman: should have happened earlier. Chief minister,
Abhinandan: even in today's newspaper, today's Indian Express has that report where, and I mean, you know, I don't wanna name the specific groups involved, but some abandoned houses have been taken over what happened in Kashmir, uh, you know, in the eighties and nineties.
People who fled because of fearing safety, 'cause they were in an area [01:23:00] dominated by the other community. Their homes have been taken over in spite of the courts saying this should not happen and the state can do nothing about it. So. The bar has been set so high that if that is the worst case scenario, you don't need the governor because it's never gonna be called upon.
Yes. But on, on this, um, constitutional crisis being repeatedly,
Shardool: I, I have to say one thing, like man examples, all, all of us gave, like, do you remember the ra hunt example when the MLA shifted from one place to another and government governor kept interfering theup, Supreme court had to step in. Hmm. So the overarching point, like under, which I'll make couple of others, is that LLL lately we've seen that there is no way to penalize, you know, the mal mal or mal intention governance.
Mm. Which you can see is being done deliberately, but there is no way to penalize it. Like for so long, people in public discussion, they've been harping about the lack of reforms, the delay of reforms. This has [01:24:00] to be addressed somehow. So. Saying that, I do think that this judgment would be a bit better because what it does is it, under Article 1 4 1, Supreme Court judgment is a law now, so it's now law of the land.
Now what this does is this gives tools for the government, state governments to quickly, you know, obstruct the obstruction in their own governance. Right? You, they can quickly do it because the timelines are defined. It's one month. And one of the thing they did is they, they set aside any action taken by the President of India on the basis of government's recommendation.
So the in essence decision, which a state cabinet makes you may agree to it or not, that's a different thing. But decision, the bill that has been passed by now, an elected state government cannot be shut down by the president either.
Song: Mm-hmm.
Shardool: Which is a good tool. And there, there are specific timelines. So I do think this will help.
One last point, like I prescribed to the view, and people may [01:25:00] disagree that the time to abolish this governor institution is now,
Raman: Hmm. That
Shardool: it had, it should have been abolished 20 years ago, but it should be done now. There is no use for it. Everybody has seen like, like said, after seventies and eighties, we had seen that the praise and use of governors and centers power had stopped, more or less.
It was still happening. But since 2014, since this government has come into power, they have again started doing with the governors what Indi used to do back then. That is 50 years ago, like I was not even alive. Mm. The time to get rid of this is now and it is an. Just a burden on ex checker, nothing else.
What does government governor do? He goes and, you know, inaugurate some places and give some prizes. Nothing else.
Manisha: Actually before 2014, that is essentially what a governor's role was. Just inaugurate things, be this soft feel good person, you know, going for some flower show. It was never, and actually [01:26:00] there's, it is the biggest kind of, I think, haba on this BJP government since 2014, how they misused this post completely.
It's so naked, it's so brazen, and it's such an affront to people who are voting. People have elected this government, you know, clearly conclusively. There's no reason for the governor to interfere in what this government is doing. There's, I mean, forget the constitutionality of it, but the morality of, and okay, the BJP is using you, but this governor, does he have no concern for his own image that mean you are not going to be this forever?
No.
Shardool: That, I mean, you
Manisha: not care about what, what he was a CBI.
Shardool: How do you think he has shared that? That ship has sealed,
Manisha: but I mean, it's so embarrassing what you're doing. I don't understand. I mean, I don't understand how drunk you can be on par to just forget that you will be judged for it. You will go down in history, one of the worst.
Abhinandan: But, but will they, is my question. For example, let me take the example and I'll just come to you. Let's go to Najib Jang. When [01:27:00] the first a government had come to Pan Najib. Jang was the left hand government. Yes. And used to create such problems for the state government. It was clear, it was unwarranted. It came from a position of either he didn't like Irv k Gval, or he had been center.
Najib Jang. And while they said, oh, one should not mention religion was Muslim. Yeah. Is Muslim. Now he has been completely quiet the TWI twice where his name has come up in the last few years after he has been retired as left and governor is his dissatisfaction with, in some subtle form with the government, whether it was election related.
Mm. How many people call out Najib Jang for the bullshit he caused when he was left than governor? Now you're the victim, but when you were in power, you did exactly what you were told. Yes. Is Najib Jang judged for it today? He's still a quote unquote respectable member of society. Yes. Will, Mr. Sax just said he will still quote unquote, be a respectable member of society.
Mr. Ravi? My personal view is by seeing his speeches and just his conduct, it is a [01:28:00] very superficial, in shallow way. I think that man is Trump level unhinged. So I don't think he, let's
Manisha: give him a compliment type. Think he's a Trump.
Abhinandan: Yeah, but he's hinged. I don't think he's aware of how people think he is.
His own, uh, you know,
Manisha: ENT of the worst, no thing is kind. I think
Raman: the thing is that they all are representative of the central government. Yes. And the central government has given a very clear instruction. Uh, in a state where you don't have a BJP government, if you can obstruct their work at every level.
Yeah. The most, ah, you will be judged by that. So for example, our vice president, he has award. Yeah.
He's gonna award. Correct.
And now in Rajas about the way he's acting, I think maybe he will further reward the president, president. So, so I think the message is very clear from the central government, and that's why these things are happening,
Tara.
Manisha: Yeah. It's not just an instruction, it's also that we will take care of you. Yeah. You will get something. Take of us. We'll take care of you.
Tara: So the, it's more than that, right? The, the term of the [01:29:00] governor is not fixed. It's at the pleasure of the president, which in other words means the pleasure of the union council of Ministers, the union government.
So fixing the term to say it's. Five years will itself relieve the, that position, that role of the, uh, you know, uncertainty around losing office if you don't, uh, you know, play to the tunes of the union government. That is one. Second is there've been study after study that says more than 70, 80% of appointed, uh, governors are either political aspirants or retired judges, or retired civil servants.
You know, uh, this is exactly how a governor shouldn't be appointed, and those are the kinds of people that end up getting appointed. So we know from the history of India, and it's not just after 2014 repeatedly, that these, this have offices been abused to the pleasure of the union government. Third thing is the same DMK government in 1973, uh, in 1970, they commissioned the Raj Minar committee report, which is the very first report on center state [01:30:00] relations.
Hmm. And after that was stabled in 1973, the CM called for the abolishing of the post of the governor because that is what the raar committee recommended. So this is not a new thing that we are hearing. I mean, the abuse had started way back. That's
Abhinandan: 50 years ago. 5 0
Tara: 2 19 73. Right. And giving these very reasons we're still sitting talking about, right?
Mm. And the last thing I'd say is why we rejoice about this, um, particular verdict of the Supreme Court. The carala, uh, cases are coming right out and the Carala government has made a request asking for the same two judge bench, uh, asking for the same bench to, uh, handle the case.
Raman: Mm-hmm.
Tara: But the CJI has not committed, and they may well assign it to a different bench.
Now think about this. If they assign it to a different two judge bench, a, those two judges could themselves differ. Mm-hmm.
Raman: In
Tara: which case. This gets further protracted.
Raman: Yes.
Tara: Second, they could actually go and give a [01:31:00] verdict that is entirely, or, you know, significantly different from how the, this, uh, uh, bench has, uh, judged it, which means that it'll get thrown up to a constitutional bench.
Yes. Which means that at the end of it, this could be overtime. Right. So it really depends. We are now sitting, we know that there is, and I go back to it, we see union government overreach, we see executive overreach and union government could very well influence what is happening. Right. Potentially. We've seen that.
So, uh, it's not the, the, it's not dry yet. The paint is not dry yet.
Abhinandan: Right. But thank you so much, Tarara, for joining us. Really appreciate it. Uh, hope to see you in our studio here one day. Um, but before we let you go, would you have a recommendation that could enrich the lives of our listeners?
Tara: It is, uh, truth, love, and a Little Malice by Kushman Singh, which is an old, old book.
Yes. Mm. And people are quite, uh, [01:32:00] they have quite strong opinions about him, but nevertheless, he is an extraordinary writer and he is hilarious. Mm. So if you want to be entertained and educate yourself, it, uh, you know, on opinions, of course, it's quite an interesting book to read.
Abhinandan: Right. Thank you so much, Tara, for joining us.
Have a great weekend.
Tara: Thank you. And,
Abhinandan: uh, we'll see you again sometime. Bye-bye.
Tara: Thank you. Bye
Abhinandan: Now for the emails. We right to remind everybody. We have a new system on how we will be reading out the emails. Each of us, half the members will be taking turns every week. We will curate anywhere between four to six emails, depending on the length, and we will write it out.
Only those, and the rest will actually be collected. And every sixth week, we will have one. Hafta special on just the emails, and this was done so that we don't miss emails. We don't hardly read them. We actually have response to each email while also not reducing or disincentivizing you from sending your feedback because it was getting very long in the HTAs.
'cause our [01:33:00] emails are getting from 20 to 30 to 40 to 50. So now that is a system we've come up with. We hope it works. We have done that after a lot of deliberation. We only entered in the emails of subscribers. So if you're a subscriber and you want to give us your feedback, you wanna tell us what you're doing wrong, what you're doing right, what we can do better.
Feel free to criticize and call us out. Mail us at podcast@newslearning.com, at repeat podcasts@newslearning.com. Please try to keep your email below 150 words. We may make exceptions, but it'll be very rare. So please try to keep it below that or you can click on the link in the show notes below. It'll open on a form for you and you can give your feedback there.
There it is automatically limited to one 50 words. Just to help you make your thoughts a little concise. Div Gun says, Hey, NL team, hope you're all doing great. Sending all the strength for the great work you guys do. My question to the panel is, what can be done for the great Indian litter bug? Be it places a worship, heritage, parks, public transport.
The Indian litter Litterbug [01:34:00] finds their way to make it filthy. How can this be addressed? Is never an issue for our legislators. So, uh, they gone. I will throw that open to the panel. Manisha, what do you think? How can we address this tendency of Indian? I
Manisha: think this is where Modi should have actually used his authoritarianism.
We should have, he should have really kind of. Come up with a police state sort of law on this. I think we really need that. I think, and it's a question of, I often wonder that when you're traveling in other countries, one cast is a very huge role. I think the fact that only a certain section of people are given the responsibility to clean our country, and there's no incentive for them in it.
There's forget wages, there's no dignity, there's no proper procedure, there's no equipment, and that's the sole reason why I think we, I really feel that, that it's not our job. It's okay to just throw shit and someone else will pick it up for us and it's really ingrained. And so I think the one place where Modi could have used all his [01:35:00] popularity, his mandate, instead of doing haru, and he should have come up with really like insanely strict Singaporean level laws on.
Abhinandan: Good point. In fact, I'll make sure I keep this in mind. Next time when you leave after lunch and I'm cleaning up the table where you leave all your tissues lying around, I must keep that in mind. People.
I hypo.
Shardool: What is your solution? I will go to another aspect of this, like I think because we don't feel ownership for the public spaces in India. Your home is barely your own space. Mm-hmm. The you, most of the time you, you only have your room.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool: And you don't think they belong to you because our government exists to, you know, and public institutions exist to create problems in our lives.
So we, like in India, generally [01:36:00] public don't feel like in some temples it happens, they clean it. But again, it's a matter of faith. But in general, we as society, as citizens, don't feel the sense of ownership for our public spaces. Mm-hmm. So whatever happens outside is not our problem.
Manisha: But I feel that sense of ownership also comes when the government makes a space.
Yes, yes. Like for example, the Metro. Now, everyone was saying that, oh, people are just gonna litter panky, peak, ping it. But no, people were given a good infrastructure. They really took care of it. Yeah. And Metro is by and large, very clean.
Shardool: No, but Metro is very streamlined in unidirectional system. Think of a park like
Manisha: Yeah.
Shardool: In a, in a well to do neighborhood parks. Parks do fine because people essentially because of their own ego or financial motivation, have that impetus, we need to take care of this. But the moment you move to middle, uh, income or lower income neighborhoods, that park is not yours because anybody, like even a mid-level policeman would come and suddenly you lose that ownership.[01:37:00]
Abhinandan: Sure. So,
Raman: uh, when I started my career way back in 35, 36 years ago, so as an ideal reporter, I mean, in Delhi at least, you first want to do a story on, uh, you know, JB Road. The red light area. The red light area, or you want to do a story on the sweepers? So my first story was on the sweepers. I just wanted to understand the sweeping sweeper.
And I still remember the, it was one full page, a uh, story either published in Patriot or National Herald. I mean, I had done either of them and I got 500 rupees for that. Uh, this story, basically for the first time I witnessed that the car, how the caste system has been reinforced. I mean, I found that. To my surprise.
I mean, I was an so to my surprise that all of them Mm, were Bal MCIs. Mm. I mean, uh, the N-D-M-C-M-C-D and Delic Atunement, there were [01:38:00] three civic organizations who were hiring these sweepers. Okay. And, and these sweepers, uh, there, there was no, uh, you know, uh, they were part-time, uh, uh, kind of, uh, job. They were not paid, uh, you know, properly, fully, I mean, the scale wise pill like, like the clerks get it or the peons get it.
So, so I saw that re and, and, and, uh, since then, uh, we, I mean, uh, this system has not broken so far because again, uh, we did, uh, a story on, I got many stories done on scavengers. Uh, so they also come from the same cast. Right. Mostly, uh, very few. Maybe, uh, if there are 10, uh, people, persons, you know, engaged in the job of scavengers, I, I could see only two of them, you know, who, who have come from different other states and they will living in abject poverty.
So they have joined them. But otherwise, [01:39:00] I think, uh, I think the entire, uh, mental setup that we have towards cleanliness yes. Is cast is so first of all, we need to break that and then the personal conduct. Yes. I don't think government can, uh, government definitely have a role, uh, have a role in this, at least with collection.
But the societal, yeah, I think the
Abhinandan: societal change will, of course is more, be slower, but I think this is actually one of the lower hanging fruit, like in Delhi at least, education healthcare was a very low hanging fruit is the app grabbed onto, in the first term, they did a great work and which is why they got such a surrounding.
Victory. There's actually low hanging fruit to begin with. You have to flood areas with dustbins and waste paper basket. There's so many public areas where there is no place to throw. Yeah. I remember beaches in, uh, Madras, at least when I had gone, there were dustbins every few hundred meters. Goa, there's nothing to throw.
[01:40:00] There's, there's, you have to have places where people can throw. You gotta just flood it. That could re lead to, you know, small scale industries, having to manufacture eco-friendly bags. Now you get biodegradable garbage bags. Also, simple
Manisha: thing like you see around these URA shops now, those thermo plates every morning, there's a heap of those plates.
Yeah. We have Patel. Exactly. We had this for so long. I don't know why it's just not implemented.
Abhinandan: This is, I think, a low hanging fruit, but. Perfectly solvable then. Yeah. And
Manisha: Mohi would get a lot of goodwill if he managed to do this.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But, but if such bahar is not just a slogan, this is is from Wiki. It's longer than a prescribed limit, but I've made an exception.
You'll see why I remember for nearly eight years shape by my time living both in blue states in the US since 2024 election cycle, have closely followed your coverage of US politics. I value a global lens. I'd like to offer some detailed feedback where I think you're missing the mark. Your take on Donald Trump, Musk and dodge often feel overly simplistic and naive.
The mirror of the framing, I'd [01:41:00] expect from left cleaning US outlets like CNN or Washington Post. Quick to critique, but slow to explore details. Doge two gets dismissed without dissecting its appeal of feasibility. This reliance on a single narrative feels lazy. Anna and Manisha haven't left the show, but when they're absent from episodes, the difference is stuck without their voice.
To stir the poet, it turns into an echo chamber. Noted. Of course, I'm not reading the whole thing, I'm only reading one 50 words. Also, I'm. Not calling for a total rethink, just more rigor and variety. You've got an audience that trusts you to cut through the noise, especially in the US politics from outside's view.
Invite some diverse views. Thank you for that. Uh, because there's some, there are three of us specific, uh, recommendations you have of how we can make hafta better. Uh, thank you for that feedback, Vicki. We have noted that, and in fact we'll try to do that with the guests. We invite, I didn't read all 3 25 words, but I hope I gathered the essence of the letter without using ai.
And this letter is also over [01:42:00] 150 words. I will try to concise it, but it's important I read this letter, uh, because it is very relevant for the times we live in. This is. Know, sh I'll give your initials because just for your safety, I don't wanna give your full name. Uh, maybe you were just little laps in mind and you didn't mention, don't mention your name.
Sh says, two weeks before a certain political party tore down the habitat where Canal Kam performed his contentious set. I was paid a visit by Kara Cartas of a party, um, for contributing to a festival which was Shivaji Genti. I politely refused for starters to run a clinic, and I will not, although SSH has told us what kind of clinic it is.
Um, being a single mother running a clinic, there are huge overheads. Ssh. She has been dipping into her savings to stay afloat. Uh, to top of that, BMC has ravaged the entire road in front of the clinic. So basically [01:43:00] there's already financial stress, sh said no. When I refused to give the money, three men got aggressive, demanding to talk to a man.
Sorry, no man here, just little old me running this joint. They took pictures of my clinic and threatened they'd show me gundi I, the vandalism that came off it is historically famous, so I took measures and formed the informed the land lady, the building of pretty got CCT footage put, et cetera, et cetera.
It's a struggle trying to do good, honest business in this city. Why must you live in fear? Are who you listening before p Can you provide security to even doctors? But Mr. Go,
dude, that guy gives everybody a headache. He should just stay home, man.
Shardool: I think he's an empty from Bombay. He's just
Abhinandan: so annoying. He's just such a, very annoying, he has this pompous Yes, the business. He's just, he's easily the worst of the entire cabinet of, of, uh, Modi. [01:44:00] Then as such goes to say, I have a bone to pick with camera.
He must have anticipated some blowback for the bold political commentary he made. If I could foresee vandalism for a smaller issue, how could he not? He performed the set in many locations, but chose to upload only the recording of the time he did at the Habitat Mumbai. And now the issue about book, my show delisting him from the platform and not sharing audience data with him between 2017 and 2025.
Why did he, why didn't he request the audience for the details? So as a healthcare provider, when I pay online, aggregated for online visibility, but patient details are always shared with us. So sh regarding this, I mean, I know how book Masu et cetera work, they don't share, uh, details, uh, data with the person.
I
Manisha: don't think they should either. It may be a violation of, yeah, so I
Abhinandan: mean that there's technical issue there, but I hope you can deal with these people and the police does, you know, do their job. Although some video footage has emerged, when they went to vandalize that place, there was a cop with them with that mob.
Yeah. Yeah. [01:45:00] So then the punker says hello. Manisha did raise the issue of dissonance of Muslims have nots but not touched. The divide between Ashraf and Pashman is real. For example, a study by an A MU faculty has shown that while ashraf's are only 15% of population, they represent. 85% of four 40 odd MP positions held by Muslims.
Since independence on the Hyderabad agitation, the city has a long tradition. Osmania University, for example, was a hub of Al Agitation. Mm-hmm. Three. The point of colonial clubs being in city centers for few is a great point. Some snapshots of some areas by clubs. City Tali, Gans Club a hundred acres and called Kata.
Bangalore Club 11 acres. Dium. Kana Club, 27 acres. ANA Club, 27 acres. The I are still called by old names like IT Bombay, it Madras as they're established by acts of parliament. Same with IMS and many others. Thank you. I didn't know that. Vishnu says short and sweet letter. 80 forwards high team. In my [01:46:00] opinion, letters have been way.
For subscribers to be part of the podcast. It is also a reason to subscribe. As Abha always said, only subscriber letters will be read in the podcast. I feel like I have been left out since my last letter was not in the podcast or I didn't see if it was read out. Uh, it was about how US is behind India extorting states with federal funding.
This is probably because of what I mentioned first. So Vish, Snoop, your letter will be read out. Uh, I dunno if you're the same. Vishnu about a certain vision was written. Three emails. Uh, and we will, you know, read out all three in that special episode. But yes, you're right. We want subscribers to feel part of this and evolve our news, laundry product as we grow.
And that can only be done through your ideas as well. And finally, AKs letter. Three points renewed my subscription. You folks are the best, sir mentioned 43 core viewers of Cricket Final. If you refer to numbers on the top right, that's Total View is not Viewers. You can see it subtly written there. [01:47:00] So Hot Star used to basically use the numbers for geo.
Um, also cricket is a game, not a sport. I agree with Aand. Now, you know I included this letter. Yes, this letter hit. Home football is the best athletic and democratic, unlike privilege heavy sports like tennis, golf, and F1. Again, golf is not a sport. It's game so common soft, a talking style. He doesn't need validation, but I support him fully.
I enjoy listening to him exactly because he doesn't speak in tweak length sentences and has tons of info to share. Even give citations sometimes it's just so rare. He's, someone would love to chat over a slow evening tea. Not a long drive and that's fine by me. Can't wait for his new NL show.
Song: Hmm.
Abhinandan: So thank you Akhi and the email that we received this week that we have collected with the rest, which will be read later.
Aan Paris, Joey 21, Fern or Peta. So Madan Ibrahim. [01:48:00] So thank you so much for your feedback. I hope this new way of dealing with the letters is acceptable to all. And when we do the Hafta letter special, you will see all will be addressed. Without being hurried through. So I quite like the system. On that note, sir, recommendations for the week?
You wanna go first?
Raman: Yeah. I have two recommendations. One I have already spoken about. This is, uh, the documentary that we have done released last week. Uh, this is the story of four persons, five persons who were arrested in Delhi 2020 of uh, and uh, in man, in most of the cases they are out on bail. They have got their bail, but they are still stuck in, uh, the jail for the past four, five years because the.
Police had slapped UAPA, but I'm very sure that they wanna come out of that. But, uh, the, the documentary is more about the reasons, you know, [01:49:00] it, it shows the humanity, uh, humanitarian part of, uh, you know, uh, their side and, and the family. So I think the Must watch documentary. And the second is, uh, there's a movie, uh, called Close.
I think this was, uh, nominated for the Oscar, and it's right now on movie, uh, platform. Uh, it's a very good movie. Uh, story of, uh, you know, two. Children, um, say two very good friends. Uh, and, uh, for some reasons, you know, one pushes, uh, uh, one, one, uh, you know, they were, they were, uh, uh, teased as couples in the class.
Mm-hmm. You know, and, and, uh, how one person, one, one guy, he started distancing himself and the other one commit suicide. So, uh. The sensitivity, uh, you know, among children has been handled so [01:50:00] well. Uh, in this movie is called Close. I think it is a French movie. Uh, must watch. Okay, Manisha.
Manisha: So we have two very good pieces on News, laundry by Wake Call, one on Trump's tariffs and a psychological aspect of it, along with the economics.
Of course, the other one is on Koil, what he Gets right and what he gets terribly wrong with the whole startup conversation that he started. So definitely read these two pieces and, uh, the documentary on Delhi Riots a must watch. Uh, please go to a YouTube channel, check it out, spend some time on it, and please share it
Abhinandan: right.
Shardool: I have two recommendations. The first one is, and I wanted to recommend this earlier, but I couldn't be here like couple of weeks ago. Uh, it's, it's National Security Archive, uh, which has specific aspect of it. It's called what Gorbachev Heard. Mm. So if you want to understand the European politics and why Russia is doing and don't take sides, just listen to what [01:51:00] USSR, what GRB was told when us USSR was at the brink of its, you know, was the end of its fagg end basically, and how slowly and steadily NATO and EU and America have been, you know, dismantling what the established order, what things which were agreed upon.
So it's a very interesting read. And the other one is, I wanted to recommend this in February and I kept forgetting it in Chacha and in hafta. It's a very. It's not something to read. It, it's, it's a dish. It's a Persian dish called Koreh bath Maja.
Abhinandan: That's a good interesting one. So a recommendation food item, we should include that, not just, not just enrich your lives through feeding the mind, enrich your lives also by feeding the belly.
Good one. So, so what happened was, I was actually, sorry, sorry to, so from next week, everyone also has to recommend a dish to eat. I think [01:52:00] that's a great idea. You have to come up with something.
Shardool: Don't like it. No, no. Not come up with something that that could, that could be disaster. No, I'm not saying you have
Abhinandan: to invent one, but I think it's a very good idea.
Shardool: So what happened was I was watching the penguin, and it was last year, in my opinion, one of the best series. So they mentioned this dish and it looked very good to me. So I reset it. So it's a Persian dish, basically like fried or baked eggplant with the, for like Martin, whichever. Meat you prefer. So, and I tried to find it in any Iran place in, in Delhi.
There it was not there. So I found a blog of a Persian auntie and how to make it so I made it at home and it was very good. Yeah, whatever. It's basically like meat stew with, uh, eggplant. Hmm. K bar meja. You'll have the recipe that link in the recommendations.
Abhinandan: Right. I have two recommendations. Uh, one is this podcast by NPR Planet Money.
I think it's a very instructive one for news consumer union, [01:53:00] for people in administration, governments on how you need a carrot and stick approach to really change something. How the war on drugs got us blueberries. It tells you how Peru, which was a hub for the drug drug trade. For the Colombian, you know, stuff getting to the US and how USAID is not just influencing minor using things like usaid.
You got two eight disincentivized people, farmers from growing cocoa to make cocaine to, but you have to also incentivize them that if you own bro cocoa, what will you do? Blueberries. Jessica, demand us.
Raman: Yes.
Abhinandan: And how all theses US agencies got together now the US market is flooded by blueberries from Peru, which actually benefit both people.
It's a great keratin stick approach on how to actually do significant change, uh, and which includes commerce and the other I. You know, mentioned this show in the past, [01:54:00] which I think is hysterically funny. It's a very old show, uh, called Loose Talk. It's a Pakistani show. There are two specific episodes I'm recommending in the show notes, uh, which they have guests, you know, guests, poof, guests from India.
It is such cutting satire, uh, that I think, uh, you must watch it. And ironically enough, I don't think India can do such satire anymore. And Pakistani, it's called Kalu. It's called, no, it's called Lu
Song: TalkTalk.
Abhinandan: And on that note, we'd like to thank our wonderful sound, recordist anal, our wonderful producer Pali, and all of you who did write in and subscribe and pay to keep news free.
Thank you panel. Thank you Ul. Manisha, Ram. Thank you. We shall you next week. We'll leave you this song. Enjoy your weekend.[01:55:00]
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