This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, and Manisha Pande are joined by The News Minute’s Sudipto Mondal and Supreme Court lawyer Talha Abdul Rahman.
On the controversial Waqf Amendment Bill, passed in Parliament this week after long fiery debates, Talha says: “Every Waqf that is now created will have to register themselves with the central depository.” He adds that the statute is “a translation of a WhatsApp forward.”
Sudipto questions the motivation behind bringing in the legislation and the manner in which it will be used. He says that the new bill will now “weaponise” bulldozer demolitions, which are increasingly becoming the norm.
Manisha puts focus on the misinformation being spread in mainstream media about the bill. She mentions one anchor claiming that the new bill will ensure “no one can stop the Prime Minister’s plane from taking off because Waqf can no longer claim the airport.”
The panel also discusses the student protests in University of Hyderabad against tree felling on 400 acres of forest land. Commenting on the Supreme Court taking suo-moto cognizance of the case, Sudipto says, “It’s a great victory for people’s movements, students’ movements.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
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Song: Tanha Tanha Yahan Pe Jeena
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements
00:04:34 – Headlines
00:13:17 – Waqf bill
00:58:34 – HCU protests
01:11:06 – Letters
01:32:40 – Recommendations
References
NL Sena - The impunity of India’s police
Locked up without trial: The story of Delhi riots FIR #59
Imran Pratapgarhi’s Rajya Sabha speech
UP forest dept makes way for Adani project awaiting green nod
Recommendations
Talha
Manisha
Imran Pratapgarhi’s Rajya Sabha speech
Raman
Outlook’s vanishing edge: How a bold magazine lost its bite
The March Of Uniformity | Salman Khurshid
Abhinandan
The Last Viking: The Saga of Harald Hardrada (Part 1)
Tariffs: what are they good for?
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra, Saif Ali Ekram, and Anil Kumar.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a Newslaundry podcast, and you're listening to NL Hafta
Abhinandan: News, hafta Cab. Welcome to another episode of Hafta. Uh, before we start, I have some good news. We had a meeting, a little consultation with the Hafta team to decide how do we negotiate our way around maximizing the amount of feedback that we read and discuss, and keeping the time in mind on Hafta because the number of letters that have started coming, and as a little teaser of the discussion, we will tell you what the outcome was at the end of the hafta.
And now [00:01:00] our usual subscribe page to keep News free. There's a QR code here for our investigation that is already underway as I understand it, on police atrocities across the country, the News Minutes team, and the news laundries team, five reporters and at least five producers, if not more. Yes sir. Uh,
Raman: research is on, but we yet to, uh, hit the ground, defend her.
Abhinandan: So, um, uh, do contribute to that. We will be traveling to at least five states, if not more. And, uh, and different, you know, parties rule those states or govern those states. So it is not just after one to, to investigate how police accesses, uh, do more damage than good. Uh, of course, they. They'll always do damage, but how the police is not exactly what one would want it to be.
You know, it's an
Sudipto: exploration of the deep state
Abhinandan: exploration. Yeah. Deep state catch a word and it's become as gi as anything else cliche. But, uh, so the impunity of India's police is a project you can contribute to. There's a QR code flashing on your screen right now. You can just click on [00:02:00] the link in the show notes below and pay to keep News three.
And our second campaign, which I'm again highlighting, which is a year long campaign, but now suddenly you will realize it's important because in the last two, three months it had fallen off a little bit. Is the right to breathe. Uh, the air quality is going down in much of north again. In fact, Bombay has also seen very bad air quality.
How's Bangalore? Better. Always, always rain, always rainer better. Right back
Sudipto: to
Abhinandan: rain. It rained the day I left Backal. Everything is better in Bangalore except it stocks and traffic. We have the
Sudipto: metro now, so it's okay.
Abhinandan: So, but uh, you can participate in that campaign, not just by contributing to our journalism and making sure reporters have the resources to go out and do investigations around environment and the air, but also by actually telling us what the AQ in your area is by filing RTIs, by questioning the lawmakers around your area.
There's a bunch of things you can do and this pressure of a lot of us [00:03:00] can lead to change and we must always push for that. We should not just take things lying, we can change it together. Participate in a fight to breathe campaign now for our panel. In the studio. Everyone's in the studio this week.
Lovely. Manisha Pande.
Talha: Hello, Ram
Abhinandan: Kipa. Hello, our wonderful friend and partner from Bangalore in the News Minute. Sarto Manal. Hello, he senior editor at News Minute. Executive Editor, sorry, and Taha Abdul Rahman is our guest this week. Hi, Tal Ha.
Talha: Hi. Happy to be here.
Abhinandan: Tal ha is an advocate on record of the Supreme Court of India.
He's a former fellow of the Peter McMullin Center of Statelessness, Melbourne Law School, university of Melbourne, and shell. Centenary Sheathing scholar at Oxford University. He studied a lot, so
Manisha: the is really nodding. He's very impressed. He's like very impressed
Abhinandan: by these things.
Manisha: Very good.
Abhinandan: Good to meet you.
I'm only, [00:04:00] as you say, Avi and
Sudipto: sir, I do this show called Watch. Okay. I'm just, yeah, it's a lovely podcast.
Abhinandan: What's your,
that's why I was nodding. I said ah. Um, and as you can guess, we'll be discussing the W bill in some detail and also what is happening in Yuk of the Woods, uh, of. Some protests that were dealt with rather harshly by the Congress. The journey of the south, the journey of the South. I didn't say that. And now you'll get hate from the South.
Uh, but before we get into all that, Manisha will give us the headlines on what is important and made the news last week.
Manisha: Yes, the work bill was passed in parliament this week after two days of fiery debates. Both houses cleared the 2024 Wach amendment bill, which is now called omi. It seeks to curb the authority of W Boards and allow for greater government control over them [00:05:00] in loba.
The bill was adopted after midnight. Following a 12 hour debate. Amitha said that we are not scaring the Muslims. I'm saying that no citizen of this country, irrespective of religion will be harmed. Meanwhile, Rahul Gandhi called the bill an attack on the Constitution by R-S-S-B-G-P and their allies. The one good thing, though, I feel to observe through this week was the debates.
After a long time, we are seeing parliamentarians actually debate, so it was nice to see that while the nation slept. As the looks have ready to call it a date. The government initiated a discussion on President's rule in money Poor 2:00 AM Yeah. On Thursday.
Abhinandan: This was a disgrace. I mean it is. If there was any evidence needed, although there was not any money needed of how this government just does not want to discuss things that are important.
Inconvenient. Yeah. In fact, Shahi said also, can we take that tomorrow? Yeah, I know Mila said No. No. So this
Manisha: was after a 14 hour discussion on Work Bill. And this time spent on money per In contrast was 41 minutes, including a nine minute reply [00:06:00] by Amitha Union Home Minister
Sudipto: Buffer State. No.
Manisha: The US dollar slid broadly after Trump administration announced sweeping reciprocal tariffs against major trading partners.
India's Commerce Ministries, assessing the impact of the 27% tariffs imposed by the us. Uh, the universal 10% tariffs on all imports into the US will take effect from April 5th. China's hit by what? How much percent we are the, we've got the least in Asia,
Abhinandan: there are also 27%, no China,
Raman: 27, China is 37%. Mm-hmm.
But uh, when I read the reports cumulatively it has become as much as 80%.
Abhinandan: Even Vietnam is very, so India is not
Raman: so much affected, but now I think
Abhinandan: they've exempt pharma and a few others. Uh, in I was
Manisha: actually reading that. I was saying, wow, pharma guys are just like, they always manage a Delhi court ordered an FIR to be filed against BJP leader and Delhi Law Minister couple m for his alleged involvement in 2020 Northeast Delhi violence.
We have an excellent documentary on the Northeast Delhi riots. Do watch it. It's on [00:07:00] YouTube. Yeah, it's out already. Yeah.
Abhinandan: It's fantastic. Please do watch it. It is just amazing.
Manisha: University of Hyderabad witnessed mass student protests over a 400 acre. Forest land being auctioned and bulldozed. There were viral videos that showed students being detained and charred by the police and you could hear peacocks and all going, you know, as the bulldozers were coming in.
So lots of videos came out of that. The Supreme Court passed an interim order staying, the tree fell until further orders. So wind for the students days after a Sam journalist was booked. In two cases, he was released on bail and dhati. The state police arrested his brother in a different case saying that both cases are unrelated, but we know,
Abhinandan: yeah, we know the chronology.
But, uh, you know, speaking of the Supreme Court, staying the, clearing those forests, there was a report I think in the Indian Express yesterday, if I'm not wrong, that in the last, um, five years forests, the size of, uh, six three states put together [00:08:00] have been cleared in India. And that's the forest cover loss.
Uh, I think it's in yesterday or day before Indian Express. So I mean, while we've saved these 400 acres. Yeah. All over the country, it's, we are losing big time.
Manisha: Rahan is a big example, how it's being cleaned. Your home
Sudipto: stage and this crackdown on the mouse is part of this entire thing, and that, you know, taking over inroads, making inroads into those lands.
And
Manisha: the Supreme Court ordered the GRA development authority to pay 10, lack each to six people for illegally bulldozing their homes in 2021.
Abhinandan: May I crack one joke on this?
Manisha: No. Why must you crack a joke with boy? How is it?
Abhinandan: Depending on that? No, no. It's not dark at all. Actually. It is. The cost of the bulldozers going and clearing this born by the taxpayer, a few lacks the cost of putting ad money on channels, showing that a good thing a few crows.[00:09:00]
The cost of rebuilding, which also is born by the taxpayers, by the Supreme Court, is 20 lacks per house. 10, like 10 likes for six houses. So that's 60 lacks also born by us, but the established priceless. That is,
Manisha: I knew priceless was gonna come a MasterCard,
Abhinandan: so, so this is how the wonderful economy of fear and D degree works.
We pay for it with our money to be afraid of those who are living off our money. All this cost has been bond by you and me. Yogi G has not reached into his own pocket and said, here I will pay for the money. So just to give you an example of how the state's money is used, and most importantly, when news channels anchors are riding these bulldozers as if it's a good thing that is also paid for by you.
So congratulations. If you are satisfied with your news coverage funded by K Ads and Yogi and Modi ads, those of you who aren't can flash this QR code and pay to keep news three. Thank you.
Manisha: The TAM [00:10:00] Assembly on Wes Day unanimously passed a resolution urging the center to retrieve the Kacha Kiva Island from Sri Lanka.
Supreme Court upheld the Calta High Codes April, 2024 order terminating the appointment of about 25,000 teachers and non-teaching staff by West Spring Gold School Service Commission. And Banerjee said that she has the highest, highest respect for the, for the judiciary and the judges, but she cannot accept the judgment from a humanitarian point of view.
Meanwhile, in very, very important investigations unfolding in Bombay, Mumbai Car Police is calling up people. Audiences who witnessed Cornell Camera crack a joke. One poor person had to catch out his vacation and was called, uh, to the station to give a statement on, I don't know what. And Mumbai Police said that No such notices have gone out to audience members.
But these are stories in the Times of India with names of the people. So I don't think it's made up.
Abhinandan: And that audience members also. Said that, yeah, we went.
Raman: We have also located some, so we are going to interview and do a story. [00:11:00]
Manisha: Mm. Rahan Chief Minister Ami announced that 17 places in four districts have to be renamed in Rahan, including Ur in Har district, which was changed to Shiva Gai to Agar Khan, Tori Kris and Khan Ali to Agar actor Mohan LA has issued an apology after L two Emran faced backlash or references to the Gujarat riots.
He said that he is assuring his fans that such subjects would be removed from the film. The film got some 22 cuts, self self cutting, some 23 scenes. The toll in the earthquake that struck Central Myanmar on March 28th has reached 3000. The military there said that 4,000 people were injured and 341 are still missing six days after the disaster.
Abhinandan: I must say the BBC's coverage of this is phenomenal. Uh, I would highly recommend you watch some of their stories and it shows you how the [00:12:00] Myanmar genta, how they pronounce jta. Uh, what an absolutely disgusting, you know, regime. It is, uh, that all the many groups, resistance groups that it's fighting, two of the biggest ones have called for a ceasefire so that the army resources can be diverted to recovery of people who are under the rubber.
'cause there is a golden phase between a, uh, ka, an earthquake and recovery, you know, within the 24 40, if people are surviving, you can pull them out. All the rescue effort is happening by civilians with hand. The army has not deployed a single resource for that. In fact, it is a really sad story in the VBC where one couple old couple were found in the rubble embracing each other dead.
Uh, and meanwhile, the military antis asking for. Aid from abroad while carrying out war operations against the resistance, but not diverting even one resource to, [00:13:00] uh, the recovery. And they say the toll could be about 10 times the al toll. Yeah,
Manisha: certainly they're saying 3000 will be easily, easily, I mean,
Abhinandan: BBC's coverage of this has been amazing.
Sudipto: I think we should also focus on India's patronage of that regime. And yeah, in fact,
Abhinandan: we said that, uh, three, re three, you know, countries that kind of help it as Russia, China and India. India and lots in common in those three. So yeah. With that, let's go to Taha about the work Bill, first of all, thar your eyes are not at all swollen.
You did not stay up watching the debate till three in the morning.
Talha: No, not really because the outcome seem, be determined to me. And, uh, the debates, whatever Mr. Ler leaves can be read out easily.
Abhinandan: Okay. So, uh, you know, just give our audience and us a primer since you are a constitutional expert. And have a resume that is impressed, even our most intellectually sound.
Uh, what do you make of this bill? What are the significant [00:14:00] changes of, as the work rule stand right now, but to begin with, if you can explain to like the, you know, guide for dumb people, what is the purpose of work?
Talha: So, uh, work, so first of all, understand that in Islamic philosophy, in, uh, in the, in the religion that Muslims follow, there is a great emphasis on charity and therefore there is a conent emphasis on giving up articles that you have, properties that you have and money that you have to.
People who, to whom it may be of use and leaving it for generations after that. So for that reason, people in the past have dedicated large tracts of land for, say, purposes of iga or for the purposes of mosque or for the purpose of building of universities and schools. So because, um, the, the, the theological reason is that once you die, you stop collecting rewards and the judgment on, on the judgment day, all of those rewards and [00:15:00] sins is something that will be placed before you and you'll be held accountable.
Abhinandan: Right?
Talha: So because of that, there is a, in within the religion, there is trust on charity. And charity that doesn't stop with your death. So even after you die, you have dedicated something in the name of God to the people at large, and that continues to be used after you, and you sort of seek benefits from that.
Abhinandan: Okay?
Talha: Work is a dedication of that nature. So you dedicate a property or anything, uh, of value to people at large for them to use. So I can plant a tree. That also will be benefit confer some benefit to some maybe a traveler or maybe to birds or to anybody. So that's also in the nature of charity. So if I build a school that's in the nature of charity, so we left to
Abhinandan: the work as the caretaker.
Talha: So it's, it's dedicated to the God. Now in the now in India, what has happened is, and maybe other parts of the world also, is that given the nature of the properties involved and you need one administrator, usually what used to happen is you, you are appoint a caretaker, [00:16:00] like a trustee, but then when the scale in increases, the state or the rulers want to regulate as to how these properties are to be maintained.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Talha: So. Um, if you look at, you know, the states that were there before India came into existence, it was administered by their respective departments. Rulers, yes. Rulers. And then they had their own, you know, chief to look at that.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Talha: Within the Kasi, they will have certain other people to look at it, so they had those hierarchies.
But when the VNB inherited a common law system from the bri, we introduced those departments within. So we sort of, in the work act, we em emulated that system and we said, all right, you have a work property, you will have a trustee and above that trustee will be, a board will also be managed by people from the Muslim community because it's something of religious nature pertaining to the Muslim community.
Therefore, you manage it, it is your affair. These are the broad guidelines in the work fact that you cannot mismanage that there will be some accountability. Like any [00:17:00] trust, like any trust can be used for personal
Abhinandan: gains, can be used for personal gain. The rules that private nature. Yes. So, so suppose an individual leaves land or a bank account or anything in their will to a specific mosque?
Yes. Let's say a mosque here. Yes. That automatically the work overseas or whoever's handling the, like, is the work, the overarching body, like the ceremony GU committee, all the gus in some way or the other have to report to that?
Talha: Loosely speaking, you can say that. So that means
Abhinandan: that land will automatically get under the care of work for not the local mosque?
Talha: No. So local mosque is also under the work. It's like, you know, RBI regulating banks and you depositing with the bank. Okay. So I, when I dedicate something to the, to work, I am actually dedicating it to God. I mean in that sense, you know, no human being is here for forever. Right? So everything in that sense belongs to God.
So what is given to you, you dedicate it to God. God. So in that, I mean it's a temporal kind of dedication. So, but as far as
Abhinandan: the technical who's under who's care? It is, yes. It'll go directly to the work fund. Who will [00:18:00] oversee it for the benefit of the local model. Yes.
Talha: So now what happens is, now that's the distinction that is sought to be now very formally introduced.
That unless you dedicate something by a written instrument, by a deed of B, it'll not be recognized. So I have a property, I can say, all right, I want a school to be built, and I dedicate it. I hereby dedicate to God. Now the work is created.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Talha: But the now, the law that is coming into force, it wants me to go to the sub registrar's office, make a, make a deed of the, uh, dedication, and have that registered with a central depository.
Abhinandan: I see.
Talha: So, I mean, the reason why I emphasize simple central depository is because in the previous regime, even though the work as an institution is being regulated, uh, in the concurrent subject, that is, that is to say that the central government, uh, also has power and the states also have power to do it, and the states cannot be completely sidelined.
Abhinandan: So now it'll take it [00:19:00] only to the center now.
Talha: So now, yeah, no, no state is still there, but the role is very diminished. Okay. And the depository is maintained by the central government. I see. So every work that is now created or even existing, will have to register themselves with the central depository.
Which is the, which is will be maintained by the central government. And anything that is not there then creates a doubt. You know, it's not registered, we won't recognize it.
Abhinandan: So would this not be in line with like ease of doing business is also ease of doing charity now?
Talha: No, no. I just wanna ask you Except, except, except that charity is not business with God.
So, so, yes. But you know, the idea is to regulate every aspect. You know? You know you have a five, you want to give five rupees in charity to somebody who's sitting outside a temple or a mosque. You obtain a five rupe receipt from him. You know, it's going to that extent.
Manisha: Well, I just want one clarification from you.
So when you say it has to be registered at a central depository, that is the central work forward or is it different from the central bank? No,
Raman: that is government.
Talha: So the, the government didn't be, so the whom would, this will come
Manisha: under minority affairs [00:20:00] or what?
Talha: It'll come under the central government. So that's the data collection body that they are now wanting to create, which will have all the data of all the properties geotag with boundaries, with the in, in a way like, you know, property, aha card.
They know everything is there, so it may be a good exercise. And states were also doing it at their own level by geotagging w properties. It's also important, you know, that this, for example, a pond along with some land is dedicated. Now you have a boundary. Create a boundary, identify that this is w land, map it
Abhinandan: so
Talha: that encroachment cannot happen later on, right?
Then boundaries wall, boundary wall can be made. You can protect it. But the question is to shift it entirely in the realm of the central government, sidelining the state, and then, um, punishing the failure to register
Abhinandan: and what happens if you don't register
Talha: Punishment. Government takes it. No government doesn't take over the property, but the valli is punished and then they refuse to recognize it.
What is dedicated to God cannot be really [00:21:00] taken by the government except by using, uh, land acquisition or other legislations. There's no seizure of the property, per se.
Abhinandan: You wanna say something?
Sudipto: A lot of things, actually. Please go for it. Okay. Firstly, you know, this thing of, uh, the provisions that have been introduced on paper, there is nothing wrong with accountability.
Mm-hmm. Right? We also can acknowledge the fact that work is a very, very, uh, it's got, it's a process that goes, that has got ated over time as a result of. How certain people within the Muslim community and certain realtors from outside have collaborated across the country to do all of these things. So therefore it's a
Manisha: Nica scam, which was
Sudipto: quite right.
So therefore, on paper, just like I suppose, you know, nobody can be in principle opposed to something as, uh, you know, something like a triple. The question here is who is implementing, what is their motivation and how will this be used? Mm-hmm. At a time when we are seeing bulldozers at a time when we see the, uh, that 250 houses were raised, [00:22:00] work property was just taken over arbitrary.
Uh, I was speaking to my colleague, uh, Shain, uh, Tam, you know, he's, he's talking about how there are these contestations over several Muslim sites from the sang, and that's one of the things that they're using to build their mobilization, build their movement in Tamal Nadu. Mm. Now these are things which we will get now weaponized with this law.
And therefore, I say that it's not the law because the question arises as to, Hey, when we are in favor of temples being taken over by the government, what's wrong with it? The government having some say in lands belonging Muslim. That's the logic that is used. That's the logic. And to that logic, again, there is a response, you know, and I see this and I think I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, I can be, you know, I can say this safely.
Mm-hmm. You know, from a, from an anti cast or a Dali perspective, which is that a temple and a mosque are not the same thing. A temple is a property that was generated through public contributions for the benefit of a few private individuals. Mm-hmm. A mosque and Islam as a religion also has to be taken into account of where is a completely co conceptually different thing.
It's a, these work properties are private [00:23:00] contributions to what? Towards public utilization. And that's a completely different thing for me from the perspective of social justice, from the perspective why they need to be protected, which is that these are public spaces created by a persecuted minority.
These are public spaces, which are obviously an eyesore for the SGIs. Properties,
and therefore you cannot have cheese for the goose, cheese for the gander kind of thing. Saying that how if temples should be governed and what's wrong with Muslim properties being governed. The only thing over here is that I suppose we need to take into account the political realities on paper.
Everything is fine. Huh? Why not? Why should we not have governance? Why should we not have the collector, who is the person who's in charge of land revenue stamps, everything? Why should we not be in charge of this, uh, thing? Because we have this specter of Hindu nationalism because these lands are insecure.
It is in fact why? One question. Right? Why as to why are they, why does India have the largest W holdings in the world? It, it, I think is a great indication and there are papers to this effect. I'm sure. I hope you'll speak [00:24:00] about it. It speaks about the insecurity of Muslims with the rise of Hindu nationalism saying we need to protect our properties.
Post partition in the nineties when this minority, uh, you know, ghettoization happened. A lot of w properties were added at that time, but also
Abhinandan: I'm sure it's got to do with India's three 29 million hectares. Yeah. And the only significantly large country with the significant Muslim population. All the other ones, like in Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, they were whole, whole, you, the whole country's the size of two states.
So, I mean, if that has nothing to do with it as well.
Sudipto: The thing is, why are there so many work properties in India? It is because of this growth in Hindu nationalism, growth in, uh, this kind of confrontation. It's post-partisan reality again, where they said the Al Lands joke, Ali, we are vacating now will be taken over by these mobs.
Mm-hmm. Right. So now in that, against that backdrop of law, like this becomes, I suppose so,
Abhinandan: so there are two things, uh, just wanna come in and, you know, um, then we will come to our guest and then the panel, [00:25:00] there's an inevitability in as anything becomes bigger. Inefficiencies and the Indian context.
Corruption is, I mean, whether it is, you know, for example, let's take another big land owner in this country, which is the rather swami sbi, right? The rather Swami Sen was somehow one relative were involved in a very large business, uh, pharma, the pharma company of, you know, of course they somehow the two brothers went to jail and the other swami was untouched because it is powerful in that sense.
Um, SGPC is not known for its wonderful handling of gura all across the country. So the larger the scale in a country, in the Indian context, there is a level of inefficiency and corruption, which is uniform across everything in India. Keeping that in mind, you know, to say that this happens only in the work, which is a [00:26:00] bit of selective, it's like saying that.
India, everything is corrupt except one department. No police, bureaucracy, media, same. It's from the same pool of people. So that I think Cherrypicking and Strawman argument is often used and I've seen that used uh uh, on panels. It's like saying government is corrupt, so let's remove government. It can't happen like that.
No. So in that context, what has changed from the previous rule and its rule other than just the registering? Is there any other change?
Talha: So what they're trying to also do is, uh, change the constitution of the Work Central Work Council, which is like an advisory body. Change the constitution of the work board, take away certain powers from the board, and change the constitution of the work tribunal.
Now how these things function. Let me just give you an indication. So the properties that are rug registered with the work board or our work will be regulated by the board. The board will determine who will be the caretaker, uh, called the valli. [00:27:00] The board will also take all the steps possible to protect those properties where it has to be leased out.
It'll create certain rules, certain directions on how these properties are to be leased out. So these are the broad functions of the board. Now, one of the functions that the board also used to perform, um, and, and until today, since the past law still applies, uh, is that it determines certain property on a prime fa basis as a work property.
So if somebody has a claim, they say, no, no, we will determine it. They look at the revenue records, look at the basis, look at the various things, and they say, yes, we come to a conclusion that this is a work property. Now, if somebody still disputes it, or for example, there's a dispute between government and a private person, private person, and a work party and government and work party as to what is.
A work property, whether this particular piece of land is a work property or not, that question can only be decided by a tribunal. And in that sense, uh, the idea was to create specialized tribunals with is, uh, with a judge in it, with [00:28:00] a bureaucrat in it. Uh, when I say bureaucrat, I mean this, they specify who can be the person and he has to be a person sitting in the government.
And third was a Muslim law expert. Now, uh, this is how the tribunal used to function and whatever the tribunal decides would be final. Final, not in the sense that it cannot be questioned, but in the sense that you can't then file a civil suit about it and, you know, agitate this question forever.
Abhinandan: Right?
Talha: So the idea what the tribunal will apply, all the principles of law and evidence that is available come to a definitive finding.
And against that, if you are still upset with that, you can take it up to the high court and say, look, the tribunal did not consider this, or, you know, faltered here. This is not how these matters are to be decided. Yes, like any tribunal, any other tribunal's, tribu. Now what is, what, what changes here is that for a, for some reason, and which I suspect is a reason for not, uh, trusting fellow citizens
Abhinandan: mm,
Talha: they have tried to upset the balance, um, of the right of Muslims to manage [00:29:00] what is their community's property.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Talha: And introduced, uh, by statute non-Muslims in it. I mean, one can understand that you don't specify, and it so happens that, you know, uh, out of 10 people, seven are non-Muslims. But by statute you say that, no, no, this particular position shall only be occupied by a non-Muslim. And this, so this is a, i I would suggest that this seems to be a reflection of lack of trust on anybody that you are appointing on that important position, irrespective of their religion.
Once you're appointed to a position, you have to be bound by law, procedure, evidence, precedence, and the law of the land. Your religion pales into insignificant, and that's your duty. If you are actuated by other considerations other than law, evidence, constitution, precedents, then that decision is something that the high court is going to interfere.
Supreme Court is going to interfere. That channel is still open.
Abhinandan: But as of now, the central work [00:30:00] is the, the board is picked how.
Talha: So as of now, uh, no. The board has a mechanism, but the emphasis is that the community's own people will manage it.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Like for example, committee. Yes. As per the gu something, anyone above 18 can vote as part of that.
Yes. And so the ma
Talha: Yes, and the MA and the, I mean if you look at the JPC report, it sets out examples of how people from other religions, for example, if you have a temple board, the temple board, the law will say Hindus will be part of it. Right. Six gura act will say six will be a part of it. As JPC, only six can vote.
Yes. So W board wa the W act also has provisions for that. Right? But your are amending it to say now non-Muslims will also be a part of it. I see. So as vis-a-vis other religions. You don't have that kind of lack of trust, but when it comes to Muslim, you have that kind of trust that where you say, no, no, we can't trust a Muslim person in that and therefore have non-Muslims.
That's one part of it. I mean, therefore, [00:31:00] as I see it, and my first blush when I read the whole bill was that it is a statute, which is a translation of a WhatsApp forward. No really speaking WhatsApp forward. You get against, look how WBO is taken over an entire village. Look, that Secretariat building, the Workboard is claiming to be built on its own land.
Look, uh, Muslims are in the Workboard. Of course there are Muslims in the work board. They will decide every properties to be their own.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Talha: Same for the tribunal. And you know, they will say the tribunal decision is final and therefore nobody can go to the high court. Completely wrong. And based, based on kind of, you know, the kind of uh, uh, uh, false narrative that is pedaled on WhatsApp and social media.
And that unfortunately has translated into a bill, which now we have debated for 14 hours. There's been a JPC on it. Unfortunate that all of those apprehensions have translated into a legislation. Right. Is there a data, have you done any survey? If we talk about scams, there are scams everywhere. [00:32:00] Like you said, you know, that's inherent part of our, the way our system functions, size, scale, and recognizes it.
I mean, if you look at a Baker's exposition of. How he understands and imply, uh, applies constitutional morality in the Constitution. He clearly understands that, you know, the Indians are bound to go in a certain way and therefore we have the longest constitution in the world because he wanted to spell out everything.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Otherwise, which is, and still, but Manisha, you are a compulsive watcher of news. Did you end up staying up late at night watching this debate? I did,
Manisha: and actually it's been very disappointing to see how news has covered this and what he's saying. This WhatsApp forward being translated into a bill over the last two weeks.
There's an impression and mostly because of the media that the work is some sort of a Maha beef. WI really like Imran Ria and his intervention in Parliament said that you guys are making it seem as if five Moana get together and they touch a land and say W and it's magically theirs. And now no one can fight it.[00:33:00]
That's literally what we've heard on television news. In fact, one anchor said that now the bill has come and no one can stop Prime Minister's plane from taking off because w can no longer claim the airport. The w can no longer take your parliament.
Abhinandan: Who's this, uh, anchor, uh, Anka,
Manisha: uh, party of a BP news.
But literally that is what, and we've forgotten that work board among all religious such bodies. It is one of the most heaviest regulated. Mm-hmm. The surveyor who's appointed in state work boards, who decides [00:34:00] whether a land is work or not is government appointed. There is a lot of government intervention in the working of work at the center, which comes under the Ministry of Minority Affairs.
It is not some Muslims who've got together in a layer and then. Plot how to take away, you know,
Abhinandan: like that. They don't do like that. They don't do that.
Manisha: So it's under the ministry, there's a government dimension in terms of appointments, what sort of appointments take place. And like every other government department, it suffers with massive inefficiency, corruption. And that's been recorded. It's been talked about.
And you can bring in change, but I think, so the those point of, hmm. If your pre-pectoral speech is, it's very hard to believe, then you come with this thing that we are helping you through the area. You are saying Hindu, but Muslim. So it's very difficult for people to trust and certain things in the law.
I do feel like, okay, saying [00:35:00] that you have to have two women on the board is good. But then I also read that earlier there was a minimum of two. Can you please explain? As somebody, yeah, so, so what is this minimum maximum? I couldn't understand. So earlier law said minimum of two women. Now it says maximum of two women.
Like
Talha: how does it change? See the idea, I mean, broadly it's semantics. There is minimum maximum specified in the section. Um, the idea is that you see. There has to be women participation. Of course, there has to be. You want to increase it to say one third half, please do it by all means. But don't say that women are oppressed because there are no representation in the board because you have some say or who's getting in the board.
In Delhi, for example, you have not appointed a board from August, 2023. There is no board in Delhi.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Talha: The work tribunal is not functional for two years. If a work properties is sought to be encroached upon by, by any third person, there is no avenue to go. If DDA comes forward and says, I'm going to demolish it, [00:36:00] uh, this, uh, tomb or this mosque, because it was built in 13th century in the Ali, uh, forest area, and it is a Ridge ridge area, and today it is an encroachment in Delhi mm-hmm.
They will happily demolish it because there is no avenue to go. Except to rush to the high court and the high court says there is a tribunal. Why don't you go there? What is the work board doing? Who are you to come here? There is the work board. You don't appoint anybody, much less a woman. Don't appoint anyone.
Tribunals are render dysfunctional. And then you say this complete mismanagement look here. Because they're not able to come forward and save the property. Therefore we have to step in and save it. Right? But you are the one who's supposed to appoint members to the tribunal. It's like art. Yeah, no, but
Abhinandan: you haven't so, so
Manisha: what?
On paper? I think women's representation is good. I think also registration of properties from now on is not a bad idea. I think going back, asking everyone to register and giving them six months of time, which was earlier suggested, I think that's not fair. I mean, six months, no one's gonna be able to get all the paperwork to register the property.
But going forward, registering it is a good idea. I feel because there's some sort of, [00:37:00] register should come
Talha: back, is a great idea. It's a great idea. You should also geotag it. Mm-hmm. But I agree with her that going back may not be a great idea, but you see what is happening is. You are controlling everything which is in the database.
Anything that's not in the database, we will not recognize it. That's the problem. So if Taj mail is not in the database, we'll not recognize it.
Abhinandan: This architecture of something that is in our database is the only thing that we'll recognize. It's similar to the architecture and RCC ca, that no one is underneath threat, except because they're not in our database.
But before I come back to STO Ram, so you had your mic up, you wanted to make some observations on this issue as well? No.
Raman: In fact, uh, as we are talking about the, was WhatsApp talks. So I'll just draw your attention to three statements. I mean, Amisha made a very big statement, but three points, uh, that he specially talked about and it completely looks like WhatsApp talk.
Uh, once, uh, you know, one, he said, uh, [00:38:00] 22, uh, leases were given by work. We gave one example indel. Mm-hmm. But. Those lands have disappeared. Where have they gone now? Okay. Mm. Another thing he said, 1 23 properties, Congress had given, you know, uh, uh, before, uh, BJP came into power. Mm. So those 1 23 properties further, it was elaborate.
They were basically mosque and, uh, Stan. Okay.
Amit Shah: Sympathy Congress.[00:39:00]
Raman: We're talking about, you know, small, small points, whether women or, or the registration. I think, I think the bigger reality is, uh, the divisive politics that the BJP has, uh, you know, been following since 2014. This is another part of that divisive politics. And second, that they, they just want to teach Muslim that how they should live in this country.
I think this is the larger point that I take. Having said that, 35, 36 years of, uh, you know, uh, my time in reporting things, I, uh, when I was a Cub reporter, I have, uh, reported, you know, several cases of work, uh, corruption, uh, you know, the proper, especially in daily. So my, here, my philosophical take is that.
Whether it is community or, or a cast or even [00:40:00] media or politics. You have one elite class, you know, ruling in all those cast. Maybe I'm in the four cast. So you have the elite class all over. Same in book, huh? Same. Same in book. So this elite class, they just maneuver. Uh, now the BJP has brought in, uh, you know, the communal aspect.
Mm-hmm. Now let us see that how these elites at the top, you know, who are, uh, you know, handling these things, how they are going to, uh, maneuver and they'll adjust or maybe, or the BJP will, uh, you know, uh, teach Muslims how to live in this country.
Abhinandan: So before we give Tja the last word, you want to come in with some.
Sudipto: Well, I just want the to, you know, kind of, uh, for people watching, you know, to, to look at this as an, as an opportunity to look at how Muslims have been marginalized since the 1850s. And the work thing, [00:41:00] I think to me is a, is speaks to that. Mm-hmm. So there's a period between 1840 and 1940s when you talk, you're looking at, uh, this British taxation regime, which, uh, contributes, uh, a great deal to the fall of Muslim properties.
And this year it contributes more to the fall of Muslim properties than Hindu properties because of something which is called the inheritance law difference between the Muslims and the Hindus. In the case of the Hindus, the Hindu, uh, law promotes the consolidation of land, promotes that the concept of joint families and the land should not be further distributed among different, uh, family members.
Whereas in the case of, uh, Islamic law, the entire concept is to. Anti-capitalist in that sense, which means after death the property has to be divided among, and it's written in law and women's inheritance. In fact, feminist, the fact is that Islamic inheritance law is one of the earliest laws which recognize the right of women to inherit laws.
So now what happens is with the British taxation on these landholders, [00:42:00] they try to start and part the other thing that the British do is to, um. Basically, uh, you know, impose this Islamic law to take over the, the lands of Muslims in response to which they start transferring large tracks of land to the w between the 1840s and the 1940s.
Then comes the period of the partition. That's
Abhinandan: the historical context of how this became such an important as how the fragmentation
Sudipto: of Muslim land.
Abhinandan: Mm. The
Sudipto: fragmentation of Muslim land holdings in India then comes the second phase between the 1940s during partition, when the fear is that these lands will be taken over again.
There's a huge contribution of w uh, charities to protect these lands from, uh, this, and then you have the period of the nineties, the 1990s, which we saw post Barb realities leading up to the demolition, following the demolition. That again, is a, a time when we see a surge of contributions to work, and I feel that this is an, uh, area which needs greater focus now.
Mm. Because this is, uh, matters coming to a head. This is a final nail in a sense of these insecurities coming. To reality in a sense, this, why have these work properties, why have these work [00:43:00] properties become so large because of these insecurities within the Muslim community? And this act is actually, you know, uh, a manifestation of that insecurity.
Abhinandan: So I, I know you have to leave in 10 minutes, so we'll give you the last word. I know also that you are basically constitutional expert and a lawyer, so you will have, uh, more enthusiastic insight on the legal aspect. But I just want to ask you, you know, what you think of the, um, response from the significant members of the Muslim community who have come on panels, you know, including former mp, a Saha, and a few others, that they'll be a nationwide agitation by the community if this bill is passed in its current form.
Um, politically speaking, um, do you think that has kind of, and Mr. Modi and Mr. Sha really good politicians, that political maneuvering, this is there. Dream come true that now there will be a divide across the country, what [00:44:00] ca and all they try to do in Delhi, Hindu versus Muslim, that the Muslims are as dreading for this.
So now you are either on that side or this side and that kind of inevitably will play out like the Muslims can't not protest, but yet if they protest the political repercussion of that is a polarization that they have managed to do in Gora. They have managed to do, they didn't manage to do in Delhi, but in some places they have, there's a danger of that having across the country and there is no way out they've cornered the community in that sense.
Do you think that's possible?
Talha: Uh, I think that polarization is a natural out outfall of this from, of this because, um, already it has been, as you know, you refer to the election electoral speeches. There have been some discussions in the past property and this that, so this us versus them, debate is something that they have always utilized and exploited.
And this is also in that direction [00:45:00] where trying to project that government property is being taken away by work. Your neighborhood property is being taken away by work port. Therefore, we need to enforce this reform. And, uh, if it is genuinely work properties, like, you know, in the case of NRC, if it are genuinely Indian citizen, you won't be bothered.
So within the, within the Muslim society, you may be able to create a small subdivision that, you know, it doesn't really affect us. It affects only those people who are doubtful or, you know, affects only those people who are doing wishy-washy stuff under the garb of, uh, work legislation. So that divide is also possible.
But above all, uh, the, the, the, I think where the, uh. Where it'll, people will really see the difference is how the courts are going to look at it. Because, uh, if NRC ca, I mean the time ca was also challenged. Some 300 petition were filed in court, but at that point of time, the court did not pass any state order.
Abhinandan: Right?
Talha: Because the court did not [00:46:00] pass any state order. The agitation continue.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Talha: Here, if the court considers that there are good grounds and over the past, uh, something that has been followed in India for the past a hundred years, suddenly you want to challenge it or it is not aligned with how other religions are being treated or your in Muslims own right to manage the secular aspects of the religion is being dealt with.
And if the court does grant a state order, then the debate is put to halt till the court decides it.
Abhinandan: Right.
Talha: And, um. Right now as things are playing out, with the orders being passed, say in respect of, uh, demolition of properties, with the fines being imposed on people who are carrying out those demolitions, there has been evolution on how the courts are also responding to this.
The courts are also able to see through what is happening. So some courts, some courts, yes. Some courts, but you see what happens is one court passes an audit, it's turned in some other courts. Sure. So, so that effect is definitely there. So how the courts are going to treat this is going to be an important mark [00:47:00] of how politically people, whether people will be able to take mileage out of it or not.
Nice. That, that is I think, an important point.
Abhinandan: Right. But thank you so much for joining us. I know you have a busy day. My producer has texted me, but I had one quick question, if you have time.
Manisha: Happy I, we have time.
Abhinandan: I dunno whether Sure.
Manisha: I just had one quick question of you, which is more on the side of politics and you know what the Muslim society broadly feels about this, that you can't say so for everyone.
But the BJP is counting on the fact that there's enough resentment among the Muslims, you know, overwork as a body which is, sits on large amount of resources, but has not done enough to make sure those resources percolate down to everyone. So, you know, when this impacts people in. You know, it's, the assumption is that this is just gonna impact people who are elite, who've been sitting on this, who've taken things for granted.
How, what do you think about that sentiment? Does that exist? Do people have a deep resentment against work in that sense? So there is resentment, [00:48:00] but they also recognize that, okay, no, we don't want it altered significantly by a party that we fundamentally don't trust.
Talha: Well, let me like
Manisha: triple al. I do feel there was goodwill among,
Talha: so, uh, triple Talal is, was, I mean, when it happened it was triple.
The LA as an exercise of a root of divorce was more on the nature of exception than rule. And that exception has already been outlawed by the high courts, which judgment was binding all across the country because you wanted to make an issue out of it. Supreme Court also said, all right, it comes up before us because every, every alternate day, if somebody mentioned the same thing, that this is happening, this is happening, the court gets the view that this is, you know, happening every day.
Like the same issue with polygamy. I have not met a single Muslim man who has two wives.
Manisha: But I think that's a different thing. Like I'm just saying, you may not meet, but I think it's important to strike it down. No, no. So that I have recourse to law. It
Talha: was already when the triple ACH judgment came from the five judges of the Supreme Court, it had already been outlawed.
If you read Justice Joseph's judgment in Triple Ach, uh, judgment, his judgment says already, the law is [00:49:00] already decided by the high court and therefore we are only upholding it. Now you wanted to use that platform to build up a convoluted constitutional reasoning. Well be my guest. But the point is that something that has already been killed by a judgment decided 10 years ago.
Why do you need to have a five judges sitting over it? Tke AP Barra. You sent out a message? Yes. It must be sent out. Yeah. I feel like messaging, messaging is important in these cases. No message is important, but the constitutional court is not there to send out
Manisha: messages. You feel like there's a, there's enough resentment among that.
No,
Raman: I, I don't feel you. No. When the message comes from the, this BJP government, it always have a political connotation. Yeah.
Sudipto: That's what, yeah, that's the thing
Talha: on, on the resentment in this community, let me assure you that the resentment is not any less than any government, uh, apathy.[00:50:00]
Official C members, eminent Muslims,
they all belong to a certainty. So state government appointment
one, one person, I mean, I just give an example. There's one per politician, uh, of Kerala. Uh, so the Haj Committee Act, the, that also has a provision of having a committee. Now, that committee will also have the central level, have certain nominees. There is one seat reserved for somebody who's an expert in Islamic jurisprudence, some MLA who switched parties in another state in South India in.
Only qualification is that he has a law degree. You make him an eminent Muslim expert and you send him in that category. He's not an expert. Anybody with a three year law degree is not an expert in SHA or Islamic Juris Putin. So the idea is these are all positions that are created and [00:51:00] so that that resentment, so resentment, resentment,
underlying premises, and the courts also don't seem to understand it. Objective housing, for example, ari.
Abhinandan: Right,
Talha: right. But.
Work for purpose is to augment resources. But
so how does, so you know, the philosophy of the work completely different to, to augment,
Manisha: but it's not that good. They need to be taught less. Yes. I think it's
Abhinandan: a bit, I think what the government is trying to do is what they're doing. No. Within
Talha: the institution it's possible to reform it.
Abhinandan: No, no. Of course there's always, [00:52:00] there's always possibility reform.
But I think, you know what Manisha is saying, the government uses stuff very cleverly actually, it's not very clever, it's just that the media doesn't call it out, is that they'll take the, let's take the case of judiciary. There is some corruption in the judiciary or alleged corruption. They'll take one instance.
Now the. Appointment of judges should be under us because see how bad they are. Yes, dude, how bad are you? So you see they just use that. So of course people are frustrated with the judicial system. Yeah. But do they want then Mr. Mocha to appoint the judges? No, that's, I think that is the question. And how does it fundamentally order efficiency?
Can I just come
Talha: back on that? You see this frustration against judiciary is also constructed deliberately by design. You don't appoint judges, you don't give them building, you don't give them money to function currently. Right.
Appoint
Abhinandan: And also the thing is that the usual [00:53:00] suspects of, you know, the few first post type columnists who keep making a noise about, see how judges don't do, the judges don't do that. You're on a Lordships, are listening. Once in a while, even an MP will rise in parliament and make some snide comment if any of them go see.
How judges work at a very high level, the time it takes for them to write judgements. These are people who you're entrusting lives with. Right. And it is a myth that judges a very cushy life, and they're not overworked at all. I mean, I know for a fact that in some cases it is highly stressful and in fact more perfect.
Uh, the show on the US Supreme Court did this analysis that how often a judge dismisses a case or put someone guilty depends on what our, that judge is listening to that case. Wow. Because if it's, when the judge is exhausted, the tendency of dismissing any [00:54:00] appeal rises dramatically. In fact, I'd recommend once.
So if you want someone there to decide on the person's life. You're saying, dude, you will work like, you know, anybody else? I, I think just such a lack of understanding. But thank you so much Al ha, for joining us. I know we have, uh, kept you longer than you had committed. I hope you don't have to appear in court or something.
No,
Talha: I, I have in the second half. I will.
Abhinandan: Okay. I see. So, uh, but before you go and beat the traffic and make it to the Supreme Court, uh, some recommendation that might enrich the lives of our listeners or viewers.
Talha: So I, I think that your last comment about the judges and deciding at which hour they're taking that decision, the, there's a book called, uh, thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Talha: That is something that I would recommend to the viewers. Um, it's a book about decision making and what, what kind of biases do creep in without even letting you know that something is coming to your decision making, which should not have been in the consideration for deciding something. Mm. And also [00:55:00] refers to anger that you say something, I don't like it.
Now I'm gonna decide against you. So. These are all aspects of decision making that are explained in that book and something that I think all of us should read so that we make better decisions, everyday decisions should be better. Not only judges, but we also take decisions every day. So I think that really help everybody.
Abhinandan: Thank you so much, Al. Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you. Having you. I hope we can get you on half thumb more often. Thank you. On other issues, also what, since you have so many degrees, I'm sure you have lots of expertise, but, uh, we shall explore those at another time. Thank you for coming and uh, good luck with your case.
Whatever you're gonna fight right now.
Talha: Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you.
Abhinandan: Bye-bye. Before we move on to the next discussion, which. So they will tell us about what is happening to the forests and the protests, and other than the forests, how the protests are being dealt with. Uh, just wanna remind everybody to subscribe and pay to keep news free.
There is a link in the show notes below, and there is also a QR code on your screens right now. Do contribute and [00:56:00] support journalism because without public support of journalism, journalism will die. You cannot leave it to the billionaire and Sari ads, even though that's your money. They aren't asking you how it should be spent.
And also, as we are recording this, ed is searching, uh, the premises of the Emran producer. Go, go. What?
Raman: Wow.
Abhinandan: So predictable. It is. I mean, it is. They don't, they,
Sudipto: and you know, what is. Are they, are they also, uh, looking to vacate some position and all that for the great Uh, I have no idea. I have no,
Abhinandan: yeah, for Mohan, but the Seha being Chennai kochi, uh, under the FEMA violation, L two Emper, second part of Lucifer movie to Ji Plan by pre Alti.
It's
Raman: predictable.
Abhinandan: It is just, it's a critique of writing politics. I haven't seen
Raman: the movie,
Abhinandan: so now I dunno how many days away we are from those being questioned who also [00:57:00] watch the film. So that's where we are. But we are the mother of democracy
Abhinandan: now the next thing we would like to discuss, which the primer will be given to us by wonderful sto, who mind you speaks more languages. And so who's every channel these days telling us how simple she's and how many language she speaks.
How, how many languages
Talha: you speak
Abhinandan: about eight or nine. Wow.
Talha: Really?
Abhinandan: Uh,
Sudipto: Bangalore. I, Bangalore. Everybody speaks. Uh, so we all speak, not everybody. And now
Abhinandan: it's not pumping up Bangalore people. Like, uh, you know, it's true. It, I'm not. And everybody else in Bangalore speaks every language. See, really that person?
I know a lot of people in Bangalore, they'll speak one language.
Sudipto: If they've grown up in Bangalore, they'll speak Kada. They'll speak Tamari for sure. They'll speak Urdu for sure. And, uh, English also be decent. Only Hindi this full language is because Urdu is there. So Hindi [00:59:00] is like the slightly IC type of influence.
Hindi influence, influence Hindi. These four languages are there. I, uh, you, and because you're Bengali
Abhinandan: Bengali as well,
Sudipto: that's why it's called Bengal. No.
Terrible. Nice. Very.
Manisha: Why Ignatian only speaks one language. English
Sudipto: speaks Ka. He speaks Tamil, he speaks, uh, he doesn't speak. He doesn't speak
Manisha: Tamal. Does he speak? I I believe it is not because Tamil is better.
Sudipto: No Tan. Everything is better than claims in. She's told Mendi my family
Manisha: is better. Oh yeah.
Sudipto: Her, uh, Tamara in terms of all these administrative terms, because she's covered politics, right?
Also because she's lived in Chennai for long time. She has, she's covered all this and all, but, uh, speaks with Tam at home. Um,
Abhinandan: so Delhi also everybody speaks four languages. English, Hindi, Galia. Galia is a language in itself in every language, but, uh, now tell us what happened, which the government justifiably so is getting a lot of flack for, I don't know the [01:00:00] details of the case.
I'm sure Manisha Ram and Suha will tell me, but I just think it is. A bit, um, performative on how suddenly all the channels are so concerned about, um, the environment in Hyderabad, um, because it's a Congress government, whereas it just never shows up, which is why I find it. Although I know technically if we want to balance it, everybody should be called out.
One should also add your, you know, kind of voice to the pushback against that. I just find someone has to point out that all these channels that have suddenly woken up to green cover ready, the Aion NDT is Ewing the anchors about how forests have been saved as Supreme Court. The Congress is doing this.
You don't give a shit. They
Manisha: were calling everyone urban. You don't give a shit about protest forest anywhere else.
Abhinandan: What Mr. Ani does is, you know, headline news. So I am a little reluctant to join this chorus about calling out.
Talha: No, but we are not joining the chorus. We are, I mean, it is bad what we, no, of [01:01:00] course it's bad,
Abhinandan: but it is being called out enough.
I think someone needs to also call out that. This is not equal. And, and, okay.
Raman: We did a story yesterday, uh, like, uh, Adani, uh, he needed a passage to reach, uh, you know, his plant. I saw the shi story. So that's for her forest. He has to go through the forest. So first you need to take permission. So no permission.
So what did, did ministry of in, uh, direct connection with the M-O-E-F-M-O-E-F just took 16,000 rupees per month? Please use the passage.
Abhinandan: Right? So I, I don't think the, any TV anchors a soap jumping this seat. Oh, forest under threat because Mr. A's road is going through it, but they're jumping on the seat because, and RA runs that.
But what is the case and how did the police push back so badly?
Sudipto: No, before? Yes. I just want to, uh, congratulate, uh, um, the president of, uh, the students union in HC. Mm-hmm. I think it's a great victory. It's a great victory [01:02:00] for. People's movements, students' movements, because the Supreme Court took Su motor cog cognizance following the protest by the students.
Song: Mm-hmm.
Sudipto: So that's one thing I really want. I mean, we don't have too much to share about, right. In terms of, uh, activists seeing the light of day in a sense. So to that extent, the observations of the Supreme Court are really welcome, and those observations were made as a result of the, those, those really powerful agitations that we saw.
All of you must have seen those visuals of students. Uh, it also makes me a little nostalgic because of how, um, you know, I've been covering this campus, uh, and what's been happening for many years now after Rohit ela, uh, you know, and Rohit was a very, uh, committed in environmentalist and, you know, because so many facets of people's personalities get lost in.
The fact that they are identified as, oh yeah. Dali, activist Dali, you know, but the, here, in this case, the students union is led by the Ambe Students Association. So, um, is a, is a, is a member of the same association. And what I know of these, um, Ambe students and why not [01:03:00] Jibe student, many other progressive students over there, is that, you know, you can be progressive over so many things.
And you know, they're, uh, on about, you know, caste of course, definitely. But there are class issues. They take up issues of, uh, the, the non-teaching contract staff over there. They'll take up gender sexuality issues and environmental issues. Why is it that progressive people take positions across the board on, uh, you know, and, and that's for me, the standout thing.
And you know, it definitely reminds me of, uh. Rohit who was part of this group. You know, there, there are many of these groups in etsu, very nice crowd over there where they'll go and document the wildlife. They'll go birding, they will go and, oh, so one day I remember there was huge excitement because, uh, this wild boar had, you know, given a litter.
So everybody took turns to go and see that's the environment of that campus. You know, the learning is happening not only in classroom, you know, people are going out, there're camping out, you know, uh, young couples are going and, you know, there's this beautiful rock there. So all of that is going away. I just, uh, so what, what particular case, what, what happened this case?[01:04:00]
Uh, well this land has been, uh, in their sites for quite some time. You know, um, in the time of even see the, what you can't take away from, uh, the Telegu establishment is that it is run by a bunch of real estate fellows.
Song: Mm-hmm.
Sudipto: This red ka, red ka, uh, kind of lobby real estate lobby is what is what is defined aligo politics for a very long time.
So this land has been in their sites for decades now. When was there, there was a scam also, uh, involving this land because, uh, uh, they'd given it off to a sports management company, you know, and that, uh, was not as per, uh, proper procedure. Hmm. Um, and this maintenance, you know, the status quo, this, this continuity in a sense of how they deal with student agitations.
Mm. What is the attitude of the chief minister towards, uh, students on the ground? How the police, the police in the Haah, then all of that has that baggage of being, having been ma killers, greyhounds, you know, so their, their, their duties have also for decades [01:05:00] been defined by going into campuses, catching voices by the call, saying to Maoist, so how they deal with students, young people.
There's a culture in Hyderabad, which is very disturbing for me, that, again. Came to the fore in the way they were, had manhandled. What else? So
Abhinandan: they basically, there was this audit, not an audit. They, they were clearing the forest. Mm-hmm. The students objected. Mm-hmm. The police reacted in the way they did.
Yeah. And the Supreme Court took swim motor coon and now stop this. Stop this. And uh,
Sudipto: do you have, so these people started saying, oh, it's not a designated forest. I mean, it's a no brainer. Everybody knows that forests, once they become, you know, they start appearing like a forest. They need to be designated a forest.
Because if it's government land and trees are growing
Manisha: and every forest is not a jungle,
Sudipto: jungle, it
Manisha: could be shrubs, it could be a lot of native species, but it's still a forest. There's a term for it. Right. It doesn't have to be like aous.
Sudipto: And I've been there, uh, Manisha, it's so beautiful. So it keeps changing from the seasons.
Okay. When the rains come in, it, it looks beautiful and different in its own way. In the summer, it's a different kind of [01:06:00] foliage over there. It's a really a biodiversity hotspot. Ah, it's
Abhinandan: not just a, it's called wilding, right? Which is not a forest, but it's not just like, when they call it rewilding in area, which doesn't mean there are migrated, but that's
Manisha: what struck me with the videos, that when these bulldozers are going through, you could hear so many animals.
Mm. You could hear the peacocks, you could hear like, there's wildo,
Sudipto: there's foxes, there's deer, there's rich bio, there's a, there's lots of these, uh, migratory birds,
Manisha: and this is what it is. No, like when we go, we'll say, oh, why doesn't our city, why don't we have something like a central park? Why don't we have something? We have it, but we just wanna clear it off for another, I don't know, apartment building or whatever. What do they wanna clear it off for?
Sudipto: Uh, for an IT park, for an of course an IT park over there means it surrounding me real estate, it, you know, multi-story [01:07:00] apartment complexes in which politicians will have.
And this reminds
Raman: me even, uh, I've studied Delhi University and JNU, so both, uh, both the places Delhi University, uh, north campus, you have got a beautiful ridge. Ah, yeah. You know, spread over. So I think we should revisit and check what is happening over there. And it was a very pleasant surprise that students at Hbar, I mean, I've not heard so far that students.
Know, at mass level protesting against the, against such a fell of trees and ue. It was such a beautiful campus in my times 87, 88, uh,
Manisha: Delhi do has done a good job largely of maintaining its forest. It has nice, deep c and all these people has, Ana Forest has, we have like a bunch of areas which have been reforest forest, I think
Raman: think we should still revisit.
And
Sudipto: forest. Forest and educational institutions, right? Like now we're thinking about building ho project room ho no. You know, the fact that these are, these are places where discourse happens. Yeah, I've, [01:08:00] I've heard like people sitting like these SFI leader.
No,
Abhinandan: also just, I mean they serve multiple purposes. One is what you said, of course to create an environment where it allows you to think and reflect. These are important aspects of the growing, uh, you know, years also. The universities are the last repositories of green cover in cities, whether you see IIT Chennai.
Yeah. Yeah. It is amazing to, in the middle of Chen, such a wonderful it Mumbai taste, Mumbai, gorgeous, genuine Delhi du Delhi, although the rage is not part of du but the only reason it kind of, you know, there are Bangalore University, so I think
Raman: it was integral part. Abby, we used to go so often when I was in North campus.
Yeah. I, we used to go so often to meet, it was, we used to consider it part of du in
Abhinandan: fact, so many of Ash, Baur Ridge appears so many of those na Farik films. Um, the Ridge is such an important part of, [01:09:00] uh, du and uh, I think our relationship with Green Cover, for example, and I, this is my pet peeve and I'm sure many of our audience will say communist whenever I bring this up, the Delhi Golf Club.
It has about 220 acres in Latian Delhi. 220 acres in probably the most expensive and exclusive real estate in the whole country.
Song: Right.
Abhinandan: Okay. That's not a small tract of land. You know how many memberships there are in the Dehi Golf Club? 4,000. 4,000 people have rights for 220 acres. And the water that is drained to, for those greens, I mean, my disdain for golf is a little less than it is for cricket.
But there enough golf courses move it fucking outta town. Any self-respecting democracy would've said the deli golf club. We will take helicopters and just [01:10:00] throw seeds. Yeah. For trees to grow. And that two 20 acres is the central park. What Central Park is to New York
Song: Good
Abhinandan: Deli golf club. But in all these years.
You just don't see any outrage About 4,000 people in this country. Have rights to the most exclusive real estate, which is public land. And I think it is a disgrace, and this is something, but if you really
Raman: want to do something against it, just introduce 4,000 Muslim members over there and you will see another they taken over.
Manisha: But I think this point that you're making is so important. We don't, we underestimate this importance for public spaces, for people. Yeah. Just Sun Nursery, which has, you know, the AGA foundation and a fabulous job of, it's expensive. I think 40 rupees is expensive for most people. There's an entry. There's an entry, yeah.
Raman: Now
Manisha: because
Raman: there was, there's always been an entry there.
Manisha: Yeah.
Raman: Okay.
Manisha: Which, I mean, I can afford it, but a lot of people can't. Yeah, sure. But you can just see how it's changed the [01:11:00] life of Delhi families picnicking with children with their cycles, just spending time outdoors. Running, walking, lying. This is just a luxury in India and it shouldn't be.
So in our cities, we should have spaces in public where we can just be.
Sudipto: Yours is one of the few cities in which this can also happen, huh? In Bangalore. You can't go, just go and lounge around in a park. I love the thing about Delhi Calta where
Manisha: those cops came and stopped. Why
Sudipto: are there are all these uncles who have taken over these parks?
Now, of course, there's now a law saying that you have to keep them open for a few hours every day and all of that. Earlier, they would just have a few hours in the morning when uncles would come walking, few hours in the evening when again they would come walking. Rest of the day, it's closed. So for, for me, one of the things I love about Bang, uh.
And Delhi is how you have people just like, you know, Dume. They probably worked hard, they've woke up early in the morning and that afternoon they're taking the siesta That's impossible in, in a park in Bangalore. Right. You know, and,
Abhinandan: but Bangalore has a lot of, uh,
Manisha: have a lot of real [01:12:00] estate,
Abhinandan: which is, uh, army, army owned real estate in the middle of the city, that those are also restricted.
So Yeah. But that's, 'cause it's fgy land, it's,
Sudipto: it's become more restricted over the years. So I have grown up playing in those grounds, which have now become national security. Kpe, you know, been, uh, fenced in. Right. These public spaces are vanishing and we have nowhere to really breathe. Right?
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Song: Hmm.
Abhinandan: Uh, okay, so on that note, we shall move on to the emails now, before we start the emails, we will play a little clip of how it was decided that what should be the process in which emails are read out, responded to, et cetera, because the numbers are coming so.
You know, large. So we did take the emails that had come suggesting how we should actually tackle all the emails. Uh, and of course the hafta team sat discussed it. And here's a discussion and I will tell you what the outcome was. Just so we split, the SHA is [01:13:00] saying, each panel member picks one or two favorite self driver emails and read on it.
You now
Manisha: specific criticism word strong criticism that you worked this wrong or you said that wrong, that we can make sure that that is not, not acknowledged.
Abhinandan: I like the idea of picking four or five that we will discuss in detail. The rest we will read out
Manisha: abbreviated very
Abhinandan: quick version of
Manisha: the,
Abhinandan: so we're talking an hour, give or take few minutes of letters there, even if you use that formula subscriber or leave
Manisha: it to the curator.
Like, what if I don't read? Three letters. I just wanna read that one big letter, which is really cool.
Abhinandan: Also, I don't think, I mean, I like the idea it's not necessarily competitive. It just forces our very discerning and brilliant audience banding their panel to have a considered view. It forces them to think, because as does the very thinking and discerning audience between Manisha, Raman, RI, and Me.
Every week we will curate out of [01:14:00] all the emails that come, four emails. Is that correct? I've got the number right? Yes. For four emails, which we'll discuss in detail the rest of the emails. Every six weeks, we will read out all of them. The second thing we've decided is that any email that is oh one 50 words, we will publish on the hafta letters, but we'll not read out because it just gets too long.
If there is an exceptional case where you want to do a commentary, we can take it up two 50, but all 900 word, you know, 800 word emails, we will publish, but we'll not read out over here. Uh, and the names of all the people whose emails are pending will be read out, so you not, so we acknowledge that those emails have been received by us.
We have got them, and we will discuss it in total in a separate haha letter, special episode every six weeks. So four emails discussed in detail every week below one 50 words, please. All the rest as they pile up. Every six weeks, we have a [01:15:00] hafta special episode where we read out all those emails. Did I get that right?
Yes. And the AI recommendation was kind of. Not taken into, uh, people. No, we can,
Talha: we said we can finally
Abhinandan: use that, the
Talha: ones that are really big.
Abhinandan: So if you're a subscriber, mail us at podcasts@newsrun.com. I repeat podcasts@newsrun.com or click on the link in the show notes below, and there'll be a little window that'll pop up and you gonna give your feedback there.
Keep it one 50 words. And now we have a system for the email so they're not hurriedly read out, they're not left out. But at the same time, the hafta is not dominated by letters unless by discussions. So that's where we are.
Manisha: So this week we got 16 letters and we shall be reading four letters like we said earlier, I'm gonna read the first one, which is by Kazu Mima regarding the LGBTQ plus debate and the West going to woke ab.
And then I was literally on the same boat as you [01:16:00] for better understanding. Let me use an analogy. Since nine 11, there's been a vilification of Islam in the west, isn't it? Why? Because we take a spotlight and shine it on the extreme bits of that religion. Imagine how Christianity would be perceived as the extremist of that religion.
Typify what it means. Every group has an extreme component. That doesn't mean we all. We call for omission of that group. What is happening in the US right now regarding the participation in sports? The clip from Neil Degrass Tyson will give you a better perspective. Keeping it short, here's the basic take that I feel one should have.
Just like anyone else as a community, they have extreme elements. Doesn't mean they do not have a right to exist. Regarding the participation in sports, this is work in progress, not too radical. Hmm.
Abhinandan: Hmm, not too radical.
Manisha: So there's been a lot of letters that, um, in your support, which I haven't read out. But basically there's this thing of whether you should, you know, a lot of people have said that you must continue to host and even though you have uncle takes, no one [01:17:00] else has the energy to carry forward a show like Haftar like you do.
So a lot of those letters, thank you so much. Whenever
Abhinandan: I get a lot of emails saying what a shit I am, some people feel bad for me and say, no, uncle, it's not. So a lot of them have said
Manisha: that he is getting unnecessary flack and there can be no better host than you. So you should take note of that. Our Isha says, thanks.
He's my
Sudipto: teacher anyway. No, in hosting, I not, not really, but people don't know this. No, I came here for a month. Yeah, you did. And I, you know, I was very difficult, you know, scared of the camera and all of that. So I sat here with her and then whatever. So for better, for worse, he's my teacher. You can blame him.
Abhinandan: Dear God, don't blame me now.
Manisha: Aisha San Gupta says, thanks for the insightful discussion on Kal Camerara. Warren. Grover on the panel would've been a treat too. Mm. I love everything Kamra does and now also appreciate finally having alternative to re in an is my new, Hmm. Kal, if you're listening, I'm sick of my.
Sorry, I don't
Abhinandan: get the context of this.[01:18:00]
Maybe
Manisha: he sang a song on that. I see. Okay. Now, on a serious note, AB, and then your opinions often reek of internalized patriarchy. Manisha, the father of adolescence isn't just gentle. His temper among other things, shapes the child's rage. The show addresses it in many scenes, how men externalize distress through rage, whereas women are just supposed to suck it up.
This played up on HTA two, three women debated on L-G-B-T-Q rights in a measured tone while he was visibly agitated. And that kitchen argument not cooking is a gender privilege. Someone still does it for him. Raman was right. Crowdfunding Send Niku to the kitchen. Now stop on adolescence, I don't think, because the wife then says that this is not you.
It's when he's losing it on everyone. She says, you, you aren't like this. And he's talking about his kids' temper that we've seen it, we should have stopped it. But his father has a rage issue. Which he grew up. So I don't think mothered, I wouldn't say suppressed, he was problematic, mean
Raman: the mother was suppressing.
Manisha: But I do agree that uh, [01:19:00] through the last episode, it's true that the two women, even though they are going through the same motions, they are really, they keep it in control, but the father, the man has to just let it off. So women do often just suck it up.
Abhinandan: No, you're absolutely right. While
Manisha: men are just flying off the handle all the time and it's cool to do it.
Abhinandan: I, and I think it's got to do with, you know, just having the privilege and the confidence to know you can get to with X. So I think two things and not be
Manisha: judged for it.
Abhinandan: So Orisha two things. One, you're right that his temper other things shapes his child rage. The short races that women are just supposed to suck it up, whereas a man can display his rage.
You're right on that. So two things can be correct and then need not be the same at the same time. Abdo, visibly agitated. Was I unusually agitated as I'm on other things? I mean, was I on that? I'm, you know, completely calm on other things. And on that issue I became, dude, my energy is the same on every htan, no matter what you're talking about.
Right? It's on corruption, whether it is on bloody green cover, [01:20:00] whether it is on market, you're generally agitated. So I think you can call it agitated. I'm an aggressive person. Now the same thing when mother used to be on hta, mother didn't hold back. What I'm saying is that everything is not everything.
Song: Mm-hmm.
Abhinandan: And good luck with, take me to the kitchen. I'd rather starve and fast to death than cook. And I have no hesitation. You come to Sion,
Manisha: you'll cook
Abhinandan: i'll, there's
Manisha: no one cooking for you, but
Abhinandan: you'll, but, but I wanted, because I wasn't there in all those discussions. So you have read some of the cooking feedback.
Cooking. What do you think? Is
Sudipto: it I cooking? I love cooking. I, I like the chopping part a lot because I, it has to be proportionate. My dad is very obsessed about this, and I don't, I know why I don't speak enough about him. So I, I think my nutrition, my food choices, everything has been shaped so much by my father who was the principal.
Kitchen person in the house and uh, you know, uh, and non vegs is thing, pork and chicken and mutton and all of that. So I've grown up watching him teach me or [01:21:00] demonstrate, you know, show, not tell that it has to be cut in a proportionally. It all the pieces have to be equal. And I really like, it cannot be like haphazard and all that.
It's
Talha: soothing.
Sudipto: Yeah, it's very soothing. And he, he's saying, he says it cooks better or something, whatever the logic is, it has to be chopped very well. And my father's an expert. If he's making fruit salad, he will chop the, um, grape in four parts. Dude, that must be, that's my, yeah.
Abhinandan: This was that meme. Not yeah, in that, but, okay.
One question. Is cleaning also gendered? Yeah. Task.
Manisha: Yeah. Women are expected to clean around the house more than men. So
Abhinandan: when I say that I'm happy to clean a kitchen, but I'm not gonna cook, does like, how does no gender play? 'cause I had said that I love cleaning. I find cathartic. In fact, do
Manisha: you clean in the kitchen?
But do you Uh, no.
Abhinandan: Yeah, of course. Dude, my mom is sick of it. When I get in, I'm just pissed off that why is this lying here? Why is the ika thing like, there again, you're doing your
Manisha: aggressive. I, yeah,
Abhinandan: I'm aggressive in nature. I don't, and I will clean. I, so if gender, [01:22:00] if cleaning is also gendered and cooking is also gendered and I like one or the other, you're quietly
Manisha: clean to make sure it's not gender.
If you're pissed off and you're like, oh, why is this not, then that's a man thing. If you're quietly sucking it up and cleaning and shutting up about it, then we will say you're equalizing your non cooking behavior.
Raman: And if you're picking as if you're picking broom every day, if you're picking broom every day, then we may say that you like,
Sudipto: you know, I would say as long as it's not taken for granted.
If there's, if it's a negotiated settlement, you do this, I do this, and it each, each individual unit has its own autonomous. See
Raman: dusting, dusting and cleaning. Dusting is also part of the cleaning, but overall cleaning is a different concept, which is quite gender, but may as a male, you must be liking the dusting part of it.
Abhinandan: I or I just don't like, I don't know if you say I have OCD, I just don't like seeing a messy place and it is, I'm happy to clean it myself. Whether it's a bathroom, whether it's a kitchen, whether it's a room, it's, I just, I personally think two things can be true at the [01:23:00] same time. There is a gender issue.
But everything is not everything. And that, that I find is, and on the first letter, uh, also, I completely agree and I've changed my position on a bunch of stuff. You know, I remember, uh, a wonderful, um, subscriber when he wrote and scolded me on my reluctance on that Kevin Spacey issue. That dude, you know, the guy who said that I was traumatized, et cetera.
I said, it's not the same when a woman is because how the society is structured. He said, you know, you saying that as a man feel empowered enough that no one can touch you. But that's not the truth for let's say a 19 or 20-year-old who may not be that confident. And I understood that. It's, it's, it's, you know, an death penalty of change that position, but.
There, you know, are extreme voices in every group and subgroup, I just find on the LGBQ issue, the moderate voices are afraid to speak up. The extreme voices aren't the mainstream who are the spokesperson [01:24:00] of that group. And I think on that, at least in, you know, whatever, I have encountered the discussions.
I've people who were considered classically liberal for, and I've been consuming media for a long time. You know, I've been obsessed with media since I was a teenager. People who have been considered classically liberal for years. Decades on the L-G-B-T-Q issue. If they even voice a doubt or a dissent, the attack on them, they are bigoted.
They are transphobic, they are this, I just find that has completely pushed back. And on this issue when we were putting panels together, I have called up people who I know belong to that community, have views. They said, I'm not gonna speak because my views will piss off the extreme worker. They have become the spokes.
That's what I was thinking.
Sudipto: I just want to, in this context, speak about how different movements get appropriated by the elite. Mm-hmm. And in the case of the LGBT movement, I do feel that, uh, in India, uh, upper coast, LGBT people in the west white people who are from the [01:25:00] community have in a way taken the discourse beyond the reach of people who, who live that reality on a daily basis.
And let's also take into consideration over here that the sexual moles in these subordinated communities, whether we talk about blacks over there or we talk about lower cast over here, are not so straightjacketed.
Song: Mm-hmm.
Sudipto: These are communities that are known to express their sex sexuality more freely.
They embody the spirit of sexuality being along a spectrum to that extent. I see that playing out in, say, in India, in Dali Basti. Far more organically. Mm-hmm. Than it would be. Everything is a performance, gender is a performance. But I see that play playing out more organically in these communities. And I suppose this aggression that you see is often, you know, a result of the people who get the mic in those circles.
And those happen to be quite often people. Either white or in India. P upper cast you, no privilege.
Abhinandan: I think you,
Sudipto: you're very
Manisha: right. Andra says Last week's letters bashed and then a lot, even though I agree with some of them about [01:26:00] how he does act like an uncle at times. However, the energy that he brings to the podcast is much needed considering how others are just sitting and waiting for their tongue.
Can I say something
Sudipto: about AB here quickly? I think, no
Manisha: offense, wait, lemme finish. No offense to anyone, but some of the podcasters look very disinterested, not gonna take names. Please keep AB then as the host and we'll keep reminding him of his uncle behavior. Whenever I say yes
Abhinandan: rag, you must always call me out from my bullshit.
Hmm. That's his
Sudipto: thing to act. Provocative. You know, I think this, there's a lot of banter in what he says, which, and, and many of things he says, I later discover he doesn't believe in. Okay.
Manisha: That's worse. No, no, no, no, no, no. Not in that sense. I'm not saying
Sudipto: he's a hypocrite. I'm just saying that one thing that we should all do as journalists is to throw these provocations upright.
Song: Oh. To
Sudipto: be provocative. And I think he does that, uh, to which I suppose will put him in a spot because people will like that. You can't say this, you can't say, but just the fact that you say it starts a debate, so therefore this is choppy.
Manisha: Yeah. And also like conversations come outta that. It starts conversations that's important.
Song: Yeah.
Abhinandan: I mean, I Will you do it deliberately? I think No, no. I, I [01:27:00] don't say stuff that I don't believe in, in, in fact, many times I don't say many things that I believe because they will be. To uncle for any audience and I need to rethink those. But I mean, you made me sound like a Manu Joseph, who will just throw one thing there.
But I, I, I do think that there are many conversations which are important. Many of us, including me, get the timing wrong. Like, for example, the need for reform in Islam, you know, the piece that I had written, you know why I agree with Bill maus on Islam in 2013. I think it's there. I would not write that piece today on that.
I was cognizant because that is an issue. I've been on many other issues. And when you see actually the data on that, that how many countries where Islam is the significant religion or majority religion have gone the Sharia way. One particular island, I think it was Indonesia, Malaysia, which, you know, from having a very liberal use going the other [01:28:00] way.
Uh, but should that discussion happen right now. Similarly, I mean, I don't know what's the right time for the L-G-B-T-Q discussion, but I think there are many unresolved issues like the sports one and you know, I have been sent mails that because of what is happening in the US the, the attacks on that community are so horrific and horrible.
You
Talha: don't wanna join in the courts that you
Abhinandan: don't want to have that discussion right now. But yes, that is an important discussion. So I think many discussions are legitimate and valid. The question is, when do you get the, I feel that
Manisha: there's no right time, and I genuinely feel that, because if you are not gonna talk about this, it'll be hijacked by the extremes.
So even Islam, I mean, criticizing religion is never gonna be easy. If it's majority Muslim, then you know, well, you could be in trouble because there are blasphemy laws. If it's a minority. If you're a minority, then you could be, you know, you're pushed to the. So there's no real reason or timing to, but I think intentions matter.
You of, what was his name? Tarik Fatah. He's no longer, [01:29:00] God bless his soul, but he was never right with this criticism whenever he did, because it always came with saying. But it's different from a jwe that who today criticizes many aspects of Islam. But you know, it comes from a place of
Sudipto: good faith, goodwill
Manisha: for the community.
It's not to join in the BJP and bash them up.
Sudipto: So, and when it comes to communities such as Muslims or queer people, LGBT communities, we should see also the contribution they've made overall, uh, to making our societies better. Yeah. And so therefore the critique always has to come. Yeah. With the cognition of this reality, for instance, what did Islam do?
It liberalized, uh, social relations in South Asia. It brought in, like I was saying earlier, inheritance. Rights for women, which did not exist in pre Arab society, but pre Islam, Arabic society, there was no concept of women owning property. And that happened because of Islam, Islamic jurisprudence. Similarly, the LGBT movement speaks about a very, very important concept, I suppose, which, and which has a potential to radically, uh, solve some of the issues that we are dealing with, which is the concept of love, [01:30:00] right?
The so many, uh, issues around the world. You know, the question of radical love as a response to fascism, as a response to communalism in India and so many other things. You know, the fact that some of the answers may be over there, that it is, this fascism is gendered, it is of a certain male nature. Mm-hmm.
You know, and how do you contest it? How do you contest it with the language of love? And where does that language come from? Where does, where do its idioms come from? I do believe that it comes from the LGBT community. They've given us a completely different way of talking about love. So when we do these critiques, I do feel that we have to be cognizant of the fact that they're not just anybody.
They are not the braman Hindu sitting in some, a haram. Mm-hmm. Let's say. And
Manisha: I think intentions matter, like the crux of what you're trying to say matters. Sure.
Abhinandan: Hmm. So those are the four emails that we have this week. Rams, you wanna say something? No. So, um, before we get the recommendations, I would just like to remind everybody that all the emails will be read out every sixth episode.
So we have over 40 pending letters right [01:31:00] now from Karthik Jin Kama 80 Unti Vishnu Vaal Sand Shankar Man, two anonymous letters and Paris Raj Method Man. Mohi am Vaal Ji
Asha Alexander the Great Anisha Rao Roham. Mima, I can't pronounce the first names. Han Adnan. We ti Sand Anish Karthik. So Nu and TMA Anonymous. So this may have taken you of those of my Ram's age when we used to hear s[01:32:00]
Sudipto: Yeah. Anyways, no, but this is a nice thing. I what I like and you know, the kind of things that you're try change, you're trying to bring in journalism per se, is to build, build this community. We have become begun to appreciate this so much out in uh, news Minute. Yeah dude, have you guys subscribed
Abhinandan: or not?
Yeah. Here's the appeal to News Minute, why you must subscribe to News Minute. There's a QR code flashing and I will let tell you why the News Minute is very important. I've told you often enough, but Casey all. Intelligent person service on region.
Sudipto: Just because we are a community which is involved in some very intense conversations can be part of this community.
We are talking about the south, we are talking about women, we are talking about Muslims, we are talking about, uh, that which sets the south apart. And I think what we are trying to do is not talk at you, to you. We wanna talk with you. And that is why I think the subscription thing is very exciting because it allows us to enter the circle of conversation and con the journalism as at its best is a society and conversation with itself.
And therefore I feel this community building is such an exciting [01:33:00] thing. Thanks for teaching us this. Lesson at the news. I could now have been so
Abhinandan: eloquent and I hadn't even thought of half the things he said, but Tika, yes, yes. And do listen to his podcast. His patience in conversations and exploring with the wisdom and insights of having read a lot is something that I find fascinating.
So please check out CTO's podcast. Become a subscriber. Join the community and pay to keep ministry. 'cause when the public pays, the public is served and advertisers pay, advertisers served. And uh, I just want to include one more story that was not part of the headlines, uh, but I just struck me while we were discussing.
They should've been part of the headline and no one's fault. We discussed the headlines, but government loses 1007 57 Core as BSNL fails to build a g for sharing infra. That is the CAG report. Governments have fallen because of CAG reports, so BSN has just forgot. Build Reliance. [01:34:00] 1,757 Crow. Yeah. On that note, the recommendations for the week.
Manisha, you wanna go first?
Manisha: Yeah. So I want everyone to watch Iran PABs speech in Raja. I think young people in India need to listen to him. He really represents the India that least I wanna stand behind. It's on the work Bill. He also counters a lot of misinformation, but he is very eent, so must listen to his speech.
Now, there's another piece in the London review of books called Submission. It's on Trump's attack on universities there and how quick everyone has been to fall in line and why that is. I think it's a very nice piece.
Raman: Uh, I'll plug two of our stories. Mm. Uh, payroll story on Outlook, the magazine, uh, I mean.
My editor OD Matha, uh, we have started together in Pioneer and, uh, he started Outlook and what Outlook was when it was started. I mean, similarly pioneer where I [01:35:00] worked with OD Matha Pioneer was also, you know, launched in Daily by OD Matha. It was fabulous. And what Outlook is today? Yeah, so, uh, I mean, you judge it.
Mm-hmm. Uh, so there's a beautiful story, uh, that we have done and this is the pay story and, uh. The second, uh, Salman Crochet, uh, has written on wa uh, bill. Hmm. I saw that, uh, in an, in an express. I think it was a good take, especially because he himself was the Minister of Minority Commission and he wanted to bring in some changes, some amendments into the act.
Uh, so, so he has. Just put a spotlight on what he wanted to do, but he could not do because of the pressure of the community. So now the community is facing this. So I think it's a good pace. Uh, so these, these are the two recommendations.
Abhinandan: What do you have for us Alito?
Sudipto: I was [01:36:00] wondering if instead of like, I was just talking about not talk, talking at people, you know, and with them.
So can I ask for a recommendation? I want people, if you can please mail me. I want to study this phenomenon of the emergence of large work holdings in South Asia. I understand that it's con connected to the, uh, uh, British colonial period. It starts from there. Then there is this entire, uh, churn during partition and then in the nineties.
If there are any recommendations that you have people I could interview or people I could read, if there are people I could interview, definitely I can get them on my show. But if you have recommendations for things I should read, my email ID is@thenewsminute.com. Please send me some recommendations. I'm very interested in this topic.
Abhinandan: Thank you. Uh, I have two recommendations which I think are very relevant on topic. I mean, one of them is very relevant. The other is just, I mean, I just love how these guys tell stories. I've recommended their specific podcast in the past also. But the first one is, um, the Rest is History, which is a [01:37:00] lovely podcast.
Yeah. They have a new series on the last Viking. And dude, it is just so funny, so interesting. Uh, they make you really interested in stuff that you actually have no real interest in. But the way the storytellers here, yeah, they're
Manisha: both really good. Yeah,
Abhinandan: they're just both amazing. Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook is their name.
And the second is, uh, NPR. Planet Money has a 23 minute podcast on tariffs and what they're good for. I think it's. Very simply told on how tariffs work, what is the ripple effect, short term, medium term, long term. And if you have time, listen to the Economists podcast where they explain how Trump has calculated the tariffs, which makes you hit your head and wonder what the fuck is happening in that country.
And is this guy actually demented, or he's just pretending to be demented? Because it is just bizarre. The Russian agent, I'm telling you, he was, [01:38:00]
Sudipto: he's,
Abhinandan: he was cultivated by the Russians as a young boy. So yeah, for the, the last four days, uh, check out the Economist discussing, uh, the tariffs. On that note, I would like to thank all of you who have written to us.
I do hope you find the formula that we have, you know, come up with, to read all the letters, to learn from your feedback. Engage with it, yet not have three hour long hafta, uh, and be able to not rush through letters. I hope you find a formula acceptable. We can evolve as we go along. If you have any other, other ideas, mail me a banana sacred@gmail.com.
Those of you who did with the ideas you gave, thank you. Two of you back the AI idea, and we will kind of use it when the letter becomes too long. We will just say, I'm
Manisha: not an AI hater. Yes, she's more resistant. Yes,
Abhinandan: she's re so I'm happy
Manisha: to use it.
Abhinandan: So yeah. So tell us if you found this. Okay. I'd like to thank a wonderful producer Pali, uh, wonderful sound record.
Anil [01:39:00] thank man, Ramal thank you, and who stay in Deli I hope is productive and enjoyable. And thank all of you. We will leave you with this song, uh, and tell me why I chose this song. Mail us and let us know. Bye-bye.
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