This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, Jayashree Arunachalam and Anand Vardhan are joined by comedian and screenwriter Anuvab Pal.
The panel first discusses the Kunal Kamra controversy. Jayashree lays down the timeline of incidents and Abhinandan highlights the Supreme Court’s comments on free speech in the Imran Pratapgarhi case.
Anuvab says: “We [comedians] take very special care of the names we mention, especially if the video is supposed to go up online…I don’t see any mobs in defense of Kunal Kamra, just the mobs that vandalised the venue in Mumbai.”
“It’s always the sidekicks who want to please the master,” Anand remarks.
“Now we know who the real Shiv Sena is!” says Jayashree on the vandalism by Eknath Shinde’s followers at The Habitat.
The panel then digs into the mystery of burnt piles of cash found at Justice Yashwant Varma’s official residence last week and the subsequent inquiry into the matter. “There are too many inconsistencies in how it played out,” Jayashree says.
Raman then briefly summarises the Delhi government’s recently announced budget for the 2026 financial year. On how the centre has now “started doling out money” for Delhi, he says: “This year, Rs 24,000 crore more was provided by the centre. This shows that the previous government was gagged.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Hafta letters: Managing emails, ‘wokeism’ and privilege, Anand’s knowledge
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Song: Not Funny
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements
00:04:47 – Headlines
00:14:37 – Kunal Kamra controversy
01:06:27 – Justice Varma cash row
01:23:48 – Delhi budget
01:26:50 – Letters
01:48:06 – Recommendations
References
NL Sena - The impunity of India’s police
Our Last Week | Comedy Podcast
Modiji x Nikhil Khushamat: When Newslaundry met non-biological PM
Naya Bharat | A Comedy Special
Recommendations
Anuvab
Jayashree
Raman
Anand
Wah Aadami Naya Garam Coat Pahinkar Chala Gaya Vichar Ki Tarah
Abhinandan
Upamanyu Chatterjee on poking fun at bureaucracy, perpetual ‘bad moods’,and his new novellas
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra, Ashish Anand, and Anil Kumar.
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Song: [00:00:00] This is a Newslaundry podcast, and you're listening to Hafta.
Abhinandan: Welcome to another episode of Hafta. We record this on Friday, the 28th of March at 1115 in the morning. Today, uh, Manisha is not with us. She's going to be on Chacha, our Hindi weekly podcast this week. So we have in the studio, Al Hello. Hello. Whose beard is going? A little outta control. Is that a new look or just don't feel like shaving?
Anand: Yes, it, it was born out of Legist then I thought it was a manageable legist.
Abhinandan: I actually calculated over my lifetime. I have saved about three, like 60,000 rupees in shaving blades and foam. You see, sir? So in another, by the time you mile, you could have also saved more than that because of [00:01:00] inflation adjusted.
Raman: I do it once in a week, so, okay. It doesn't
Abhinandan: pinch me. And yes, she joins us from, uh, Chennai.
Jayashree: Sadly, Les,
Abhinandan: but Nuva Paul will be joining us later. Uh, very well known. And in my view, very funny. Standup comic. Uh, we'll be talking about you guest it, the Al Camera fracas, but before that, I will do what I always do, which is urge you to subscribe.
There is a QR code flashing on your screens right now. Scan that and contribute on the news, laundry News Minute project on the impunity of India's police. We have seen that in action in Maharastra on the most ridiculous whim of, in my view, an uneducated, uh, political leadership who clearly do not even understand what the Constitution allows and doesn't, [00:02:00] uh, have set the, what I call their private militia, which goes by the name police, uh, unleashed them on the club that was that hosted ALS show.
The Tam Lado police, meanwhile, has also barged into the home of one YouTuber. Uh, right, uh, RI We will discuss that also. Uh,
Raman: and as Sam Police have arrested a journalist, Mr.
Abhinandan: The genius who's taking India into the 21st century, who says digital media journalists are not journalists. Journalists of Prime Minister is saying digital media.
India. Digital India from the Stone Age is saying only print and broadcast are journalists. Digital is not journalists. Well, Mr.
Raman: No, no, he said. We give advertisements only to print those whom we give the advertisement. They are the journalists. So those whom you have tamed,
Abhinandan: a journalists, those journalist you are great.
You know, leaders like you [00:03:00] will take us in two 21st or 31st century straight. You are clearly very educated man. Uh,
Jayashree: also, just to clarify, I mean the ADE police is revolting as are most police forces, but this specific YouTuber thing is slightly different, which is that, uh, SVA Shankar said that a group of people, this guy is a sanitation workers, entered his house.
He said they did and they attack the house. They scared his mother. So he says they did it on the behest of the police and that some congress leader was involved. The police has said they are not involved but to distance themselves from it. They f formally handed over the case to the CID saying that we will not investigate, let them
Anand: in some the, uh, visible cause given is, uh, uh, prevention of SCST Act, atrocity.
This is a second case. A
Raman: not the first case. Second first case was by bail. He got bail. Second case security guard. Security guard is SC t complain. Ha. So he's the complaint. So he put it under CST so [00:04:00] that he's doesn't get bail security
Anand: card of the same bank.
Abhinandan: Yeah. So the first time he got bailed. Ah, but, so the QR code has been on so.
This is an investigation where at least five of our journalists, whose name I have announced several times, I will not do so again between, uh, the News Minute and the news laundry team and producers will be going across the country and investigating how the police acts with the unity, not in public interest, but against public interest.
And it's very important we do the story. Meanwhile, you can also read the, can Be the Story. I'll plug that later, um, on this show. Uh, so yeah, uh, subscribe to News Laundry page to keep News three. And if you do not like scanning QR codes, there's a link in the show notes. You can click on that link and pay to keep News three.
'cause when the public pays, the public is served. And when public is run by Sari Ads, then it does sari bidding. On that note, let's get the headlines. Jesse, over to you.
Jayashree: Yes. So the first major headline is [00:05:00] the Kal Ka case, where he sang a song referencing traitors seemingly targeting hinde. It got a storm.
The venue of his performance, the habitat was vandalized by Schiff Sinex. He was summoned by the Mumbai Police and the B-J-P-M-L-A moved a breach of privilege notice against him. He's now moved the Madras High Court as of this morning for transit, anticipatory bail, and he's also said he will not apologize.
Abhinandan: And, uh, that venue has decided to shut down.
Jayashree: The venue has decided to
Raman: shut
Abhinandan: down. Lovely creating jobs every day.
Raman: By the way, BMC had given them, uh, you know, the lessons to run that studio. I mean, uh, now they are saying that you are not allowed to ha uh, you know, have such activities in the basement. But, but the, they had the lessons.
Jayashree: And while all this drama is going on the Supreme Court today, Supreme has quashed an FAR filed by the Gura Police against the Congress MP called Imran pr. This was filed over a poem. The bench said that [00:06:00] literature including poetry, drama, films, satire, art, make the lives of humans more meaningful,
Abhinandan: right?
So kudos the Supreme Court. I hope the Maha Police reads this judgment in full whenever it's uploaded.
Jayashree: Now in Delhi, a day, a day after piles of cash were allegedly recovered from a Del High Court judge's residence. After a fire, he was transferred to the Al Habad High Court. The Chief Justice of India has now released a video of the incident and has set up an inquiry committee.
The judge in question Justice Yen Burma says he's being framed right in Also in Delhi, Reka Gupta has presented a one CRO budget with 10 focus areas. This includes Yamana cleaning, economic empowerment for women, infrastructure, water, and connectivity. She says it's a roadmap to make Delhi self-reliant.
Raman: Yesterday. This, uh, the deli cm was on the road. Mm. And, uh, several cow. Yeah. Cows on the road stopped away. And then there is a, there is an ultimatum to all the cow [00:07:00] shelters. Yeah. Around who get the government money.
Abhinandan: Actually, any of you ever pass that road, which connects the Nelson Mandela Mar to the GNU Road.
There are about 20 cows there all the time, especially very early in the morning. 'cause I passed there very early in the morning and they've been there for years, so I'm sure they will be taken care of. I'm not holding my breath, but Tika tam down. Why is this happening? Uh, so let's see
Jayashree: now adding to festival chair for e na.
The following plans have been proposed by officials in Delhi and eSSH, uh, B-J-P-M-L-A and Delhi der and Neraj BEYA have demanded the closure of meat shops during Navarra since it hurts Hindu sentiments. In ra. The police have warned against namas on the streets. They say violators will face registration of criminal cases, cancellation of passports and licenses.
And the Delhi Government's Art and Culture Department under capital MHA is going to [00:08:00] kick off a Fortnite long celebration to Mark Hindu. A grand ceremony will be hosted at Dehi assembly. How exciting.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Jayashree: The Supreme Court has stayed the Aha Bahai Court's recent order, which said that grabbing a child's breasts, breaking the string of her pajamas and attempting to drag her, do not constitute the offense of attempt to rape or rape.
The Supreme Court has said the High Court's order was totally unknown to the tenets of law.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Jayashree: The CBI has filed a closure report related to the death of actors. Han Singh Rajput in 2020. It says he died by suicide. I mean, my question is, everyone who drove this entire thing into a frenzy, will there ever be any accountability for it?
Because I mean, it was in the middle of the pandemic, right? It was when migrant workers were watching home, but every single one of them went after Diya, Chak, Berti.
Abhinandan: So no one has apologized or anything. They just pretended that never happened. Mm. [00:09:00] All the, yeah. The Marsha that we had, but was
Raman: there, I didn't see, uh, times now or, and, uh, this show.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Raman: Did they have a show on this after this? They
Jayashree: did not have a single show on the CVS closure report. It is, as you said, it is like it never
Anand: happened. Mm-hmm. No. Like 2008 AHI case also CS and gave a closure report. Mm-hmm. So in the meantime, their, her parents were jailed also. Yeah. So. In public perception, I think the job is done.
Nobody looks at their parents with any sense of emotions. Most of the people don't look at that. Hmm. It's more evidentiary,
Jayashree: right? Uh, PA Parliamentary standing committee has said it's shocked that the Environment Ministry has utilized less than 1% of over eight 50 crows that was allocated to a scheme to control pollution.
This was in 20 24, 25,
Abhinandan: and after all [00:10:00] the noise they make about pollution and they keep blaming this government and that government and the tele government, the center's doing nothing, which is actually the best equipped to coordinate among four. So this is a good time for me to also remind you of our year long campaign, which is a Fight to breathe campaign.
Uh, you can participate again, there's a QR code flashing. There is a link in the show notes. Tell us the a q and your area. You can file ittis. There is a page, a landing page we have on what all you can do to be a part of it. Because unless we push and demand change, it is clear that the powers that be are least interested in cleaning up the air no matter how many generation kills.
So do get involved. Let's push and force the government to act. So here's a QR code and there's a link in the show notes.
Jayashree: In Asam, chief says, individuals working for online news portals are not officially recognized as journalists under state government rules. This is after the ASAM police arrested a digital news journalist called [00:11:00] Dewar Hussein Mazu for questioning the MD of AAM Cooperative Apex Bank.
This is when protests broke out alleging financial mismanagement.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Jayashree: I believe he works for Countercurrent.
Abhinandan: Okay.
Jayashree: In a sharp reply to Yogi's criticism of the three language role, MK Stallon has said, a's remarks are not irony, but political black comedy at its darkest, he says, Tado does not oppose language.
It is against imposition and chauvinism. I believe Adina said that Stalin is just trying to create divisions because his vote bank is at risk.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Jayashree: Also, in Tado, the government has introduced resolution in the state assembly against the work bill. It says it's an attempt to allow political interference and curtail religious freedom, but now also saw demonstrations against the proposed bill, uh, the protests organized by the All India.
Muslim Personal Law Board. Were joined by LA[00:12:00]
at Oxford University. Manta Banerjee gave a speech during which a group of student protesters showed up with placards and raised questions over the RG rape case in West Bengal. Manta said, if you want to make it a political platform, go to Bengal. Tell your party to be stronger. DD walks like a royal Bengal tiger.
Abhinandan: That shouldn't be ts we don't do actor, actress. The leaders are mostly men. There's no
Jayashree: gendered gender words anymore. Please. Ah, so, so,
Abhinandan: okay.
Jayashree: How, how old fashioned? Okay,
Abhinandan: fine.
Jayashree: In a very interesting news, development for the week is just Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor in Chief of the Atlantic, was accidentally added to a signal group that consisted of Trump's top security officials to discuss what were meant to be secret plans to bomb Yemen.
Other group members appeared to be Vice President j Vance and defense secretary Pete Heel. So he's written a very long piece in The Atlantic, which I think everyone should read on just how it happened and what they were talking about. So also, he said they discussed bombs were going to be [00:13:00] dropped, and two hours later, bombs did in fact drop.
So,
Abhinandan: and right on q we have the entry of Al. We should have a sound effect. Now, whenever Hero enters the, the film, El Sal Manan enters it. It's accompanied by loud music.
Anuvab: I, I wish. Uh, hello everybody. I, I wish. That a middle-aged be man in his forties can replace Salman ka. I don't think we live in that world, but I'm, I'm glad that there is thinking that such a world can exist.
Jayashree: Let us remember that Salman KA is way beyond middle aged, so Correct. Right. And the final headline is Donald Trump has announced sweeping plans to impose a 25% tariff on all imported cars and light trucks imported into the us. He said the measure will be permanent and will come into effect on April 2nd.
So,
Abhinandan: although what impact this will have, uh, there's doesn't seem to be consensus on this or whether it'll even be a lasting impact, but yes, Mr. Trump continues to amuse the world, scare the [00:14:00] world, and provide lots of material to the late night shows in the us especially on this, uh, Atlantic editor being added, um, onto that group.
It has created such wonderful shows and the response of the right-wing media and the commentators puts even the Indian media to shame. In fact, we have a male here that's saying aans, uh, observation a a few years ago on Haftar that the US is institutionally strong. So it can be standard. Trump hasn't aged well, so I do think it has, I mean, if he had a Trump equivalent here.
It'll collapse by now, but the, the US is still teetering on some sort of, uh, you know, uh, method is, is because it fits in institutional, I think, strength. But coming to the case of what happened in Mumbai, uh, you know, Jesse can give us context, but I would also just like to in, because this is happening as [00:15:00] we speak, there is a case being heard in the Supreme Court, uh, regarding a Congress mp.
And there was an F fire against him for a poem he wrote. So I quote from live law judges must protect freedom of speech even if they don't like what was said. Supreme Court, SJA Fire against Congress, MP over poem and Supreme Court says, even if a large number of persons dislike the views expressed by another, the right of person to express the views must be respected and protected.
And they have quashed an FIR. Now, this is important to see in context of the anticipatory bail that Kunal has put out as well. Uh, and that is also a poem only or a song. Uh, so the bench was Justice Abha ocha and Justice o ian, uh, they were aligned. The petition filed by Preap ghi, uh, that no offense was made out.
Again, I'm just [00:16:00] quoting free expression of thoughts and views by individuals or groups of individuals is an integral part of a healthy, civilized society. Without freedom of expression or thought of thoughts and views, it is impossible to lead a dignified life guaranteed. Under Article 21 of the Constitution, in a Healthy Democracy, the views of thoughts expressed by an individual or group of individuals must be counter by expressing another point of view, uh, seemingly criticizing G High Court for refusing to their firearm.
The Supreme Court observed. Court, the courts are duty bound to uphold and enforce the fundamental rights guaranteed under the Constitution of India. Sometimes we, the judges may not like the spoken or written words, but still it's our duty to uphold fundamental rights. Under Article 19 one, we judges are also under an obligation to uphold the Constitution and the respective ideals.
Now, I do hope, uh, this is read in Toto by the Mahara Police. I dunno if you guys who went and decided to shut down the place or file a fires or want to [00:17:00] call Mr. Kal camera questioning, read this. I highly doubt they will, because the shamelessness of the police is only, uh, matched by the shamelessness of a politicians that they will get laed and they continue to do the same thing year on year, without any shame.
And of course, when anyone goes at the police, then they will cry that, oh, we are not appreciated. We are not. Remember that protest that happened outside this, uh, police commissioner's house in Delhi two, three years ago where they were making a tamasha of, oh, no one appreciates us, so poor us, poor us on a daily basis, they're beating up people on the streets.
So I'm afraid I have no sympathy for the police. Uh, so now in Al's case, uh, just let the, the context of what happened. And then I'd like to know from Anab how much self sensitive he does and has he ever performed in this club. But yeah, JHI go first.
Jayashree: So. Basically in January, Kunal camera performed at the Habitat Club, which is located in a hotel called Un Continental or Uni [00:18:00] Continental or something.
So during the performance, he sort of sang a parody of a song from dhe, which without naming Hinde, called him a traitor or referenced a bunch of things that he did. And so it basically did mock him, but he never explicitly named him. Now he uploaded that clip, I think last week, as soon as he uploaded the clip, but was on a Sunday.
Shina workers went to the club where another performance was taking place with another comedian, and they ransack it. They threw the chairs, this and that. Then I think two F Fis were filed against Kal Camerara. Uh, this is based on a complaint from sh uh, Shina worker. A bunch of Shina people were, were detained for the ransacking, but then they were let off.
Kunal Kamara meanwhile said, he will not apologize. He said he only apologized if the court tells him to. The Habitat Club. Put out a statement distancing itself entirely. It said that artists are responsible for the content they put out. We have nothing to do with it, so it's not our fault. Uh, there's also that viral recording of a sh and our worker telephone in Canal cameras and threatening him and saying, where the [00:19:00] fuck are you and all?
And then he says, I'm in Tado. And then that man says, slightly stumped, but then how will I come to Tam? Which I thought was great. And he has moved the Madras High Court this morning, uh, for anticipatory bail. And uh, also in Maha, uh, it was A BJP Emily, who has moved, uh. Breach of privilege motion against Al Kamran.
And usually what happens when that, when you move a breach of privilege is that they, they can call you to come and apologize, but they can also arrest you. If so, they wish. That is the TLDR.
Abhinandan: Right. So, um, also that a
Jayashree: team from the BMC, because the BMC doesn't wanna be left out of all this drama. They went to the, uh, club on Monday and they said they're looking into the property's structural plan to see if it is legitimate.
Abhinandan: So, yeah. So, uh, you've performed in many countries, you've performed in India. Good. Gao, I have attended your performances by the way. Um, also [00:20:00] has a podcast, which I have heard every single episode of till date. I dunno why they don't update it more frequently. It's called, uh, our last week. Uh, so on all your performances, do you take special care while performing in India?
And if you do, uh, which state do you take most care on in, uh, before you tell us about what you think of this forecast that happened with Kunal?
Anuvab: We all, I think, take very special care about the names we mentioned. Um, I perform in Bombay, Calcutta, uh, Delhi, Bangalore. And I think there's a lot of thought that goes behind anything that's going to be put out online.
Um, if there is a name of an individual who is being berated, because chances are not usually the individual, just like in this case, not the individual individual, but his fans, supporters. [00:21:00] Uh, people will, you don't know what they will do. In fact, when the deputy chief minister was asked about the incident, he said, I am all for freedom of speech, but people's outpouring of love for me, I can't control.
Um, and that may be completely true, you know, like how many people, uh, I, I don't see any mobs in defense of Kal Kamra. Hmm. Uh, showing up to protect the habitat as, as a mob is showing up to beat. So maybe they have more people than artists have. I, and that's his, I mean, his comment was, you know, I can't, uh, I wouldn't obviously not condone this sort of thing, but I can't control the outpouring of support and love that my supporters have for me.
Abhinandan: And even the guy who led that mob appeared on several networks. He was, uh, on, you know, several of the online. I mean, I, I must say the questioning to him, even among some of the online, uh, platforms, was [00:22:00] pathetically weak. Mm. Uh, he said, I take full responsibility. I'm willing to bear the consequences. Dude, you have no consequences.
No, you've forgot Bail the people you know who are in jail for four or five years for giving a speech on peace. I. SI mean, such the questioning to him was so pathetically weak. You could have cornered him. You could have made him look like an ass, which he is. I mean, he was even worse than, but of course he's given a free pass with this.
Like, I take full responsibility because you know, you're not gonna st spend any significant time in jail. Uh, so I mean, that whole thing is because the institution is with, with him. But
Raman: besides,
Jayashree: no, and, and meanwhile, they're, they're planning to check canal cameras, bank accounts, and his call records because they're saying, surely someone is behind this.
So, I mean, he has no sort of expectation of bail, of privacy, of anything. It means
Abhinandan: I just think that, you know, regular person, especially who doesn't have institutional backing, doesn't have the time, the energy or the resources otherwise. Hinde saying on record that [00:23:00] it can be straight defamation. Can you prove it?
If you can't prove it? Shut up, man.
Raman: True.
Abhinandan: You know, you have the institutions of investigation behind you and you've made a, if any of us make an allegation on an that you have taken money from someone to do this, you think. It'll just go with the flow. These guys can say anything, any shit. They talk and they get away with it.
So, I mean, I just think it's, and, and which is why, just the way this discussion, you know, goes about on, on television channels, it just doesn't take the power imbalance into account. But, you know, coming back to you before I go around the panel once again, uh, have you seen the full show, the 45 minutes?
Anuvab: I have.
Um, and there's lots of different things in it. I mean, there's a large section on Sud Mohi in it. Yeah. There's, uh, I mean, you know, it's, uh, uh, I mean, look, habitat is, uh, I mean, I [00:24:00] dunno if people know, but I think this was recorded in mid, uh, very early February. Hmm. Uh, when Kunal was, and I think he workshopped it a number of months, the New Hour over December, January.
Hmm. Various cities around India. And then obviously the outrage only comes when it comes out online. Right. Hmm. So I think he's been doing this show for a number of months. Um, and Habitat is somewhere where all of us perform quite regularly. The, the last, our last week, the podcast that we do, the last live show Hmm.
Was at Habitat. Oh dear. So now December, um, no. In that Bombay doesn't have that many live comedy venues. Mm-hmm. I, I mean, India in general, Delhi has a handful, Bombay has a handful, and Habitat was very much the center of it. Now it's like, I mean, you know, if you go and break, say Habitat Delhi. Because you didn't like a performance.
There's a variety of performances that happen in that venue. What is the poor venue supposed to do? Right? You can have a contentious [00:25:00] comedian. You can also have a comedian that talks about dating. You have, uh, panel shows that talk about Tinder. You have somebody talking about the chief minister. Now, that's just the nature of a venue, right?
Like there'll be a variety of artists. I think we'll put out a post sometimes saying, um, essentially what you do by ransacking a theater or a venue like that is essentially, uh, you are saying that this art form should stop, right? Like, and I mean it without, I mean, it's a power thing, right? Like artists don't necessarily have any power, right?
The point is that camera is, uh, is resilient. Like most of the messages I get when something like the Sam Rhina thing happens or camera happens is all this very brave. And, but the point is that the after effects of this, most of the people will move on to the next news cycle. But that comedian and his poor lawyer [00:26:00] will have to live with this for six months or eight months or for the next 20 years or whatever.
Like someone has to show up. And at the end of the day, I think for a lot of artists, the income doesn't justify the pain. You know, like the public, uh. Public fame is also so fleeting now that a lot of artists think that the success that I get out of the earlier, maybe the burst of popularity from something like this that made you viral and FIR et cetera.
And, you know, that was tempting. Maybe like even in Mona Farkis case, if you remember, he went to jail. He hadn't even done a show, right? They arrested him, right? That he ended up on Big Boss. So, I mean, there's a whole cycle of success and failure. Like people forget, right? Like, but the artist has who live with the consequences.
And for a lot of, uh, you know, not very wealthy or not very famous artists, it's not worth the hassle. You know, it's not worth having to live for this for the next 15, 20 years and having to pay for court cases [00:27:00] because the case will keep dragging. And, you know, like, uh, I mean, think about someone like Hamra or someone like that, like easiest time going to be spent in just handling police and court cases, or doing specials or, or writing standup, right?
Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean, if he's gonna spend most of his day handling and knowing the nuances of the law, then he's not really an artist. He's just a guy that deals with lawyers. So, um, there's, and many people think there's no point in many ways in doing this profession, um, if the consequences are so, uh. You know, dire and long lasting.
I think that's long lasting is the main problem. Yeah. And then if they file a case in a Sam or in somewhere else, then you're running from one end to another. And this has happened to, you know, so many, like for example, in the, the more interesting one, 'cause Kamra directly to K political party and obviously in India, like you said, they have [00:28:00] institutional backing, they'll come after it.
But if you remember just before this on the India got latent controversy. Mm. All 45 people who were judges ever on the show. They
Abhinandan: all, yeah, they
Anuvab: were all called in for questioning. A lot of colleagues. I was supposed to judge. One of the things, I unfortunately ended up having something that we weekend that I couldn't.
So
Abhinandan: unfortunately, fortunately,
Anuvab: fortunately, I dunno whether in return, I mean it's like a, it's like a talent show, right? You're judging, it's based on the American show killed Tony. Mm-hmm. Uh, I did that particular weekend, Cyrus Cher, and I was supposed to be there and both of us ended it up having something.
So, uh, but loads of my colleagues, you know, uh, comedians were nothing to do with any controversy. You know, like the ul Kariss of the world and even actors, Ashish, they were all judges and now suddenly they have to go and uh, you know, give some statement. So the moment it becomes that wide reaching, you don't know, right?
Like, you don't know whether it's worth the hassle. [00:29:00]
Abhinandan: Right. Anan, what do you make of it? First of all, did you see the show? Did you, did you, no. Okay. You haven't watched it, but any clips you've seen Yes. Clips the ones that I guess were shown in the context in the news. Mm-hmm. So what do you think of the legality of this?
And, uh, I mean, I I mean, you, you are studying law, the likelihood of the Madras High court giving him anticipatory bail. Does that help him at all? Or will he still have to go for questioning? So it doesn't really help as far as the nuisance value is concerned?
Anand: No, no legality of, uh, this first, that, uh, the Supreme Court case that you were citing, which is being heard right now?
Yeah. So, uh. And the moment, uh, the judges are of the opinion that it's, uh, a case, uh, demanding restriction on freedom of his speech. Mm-hmm. They would come to the, uh, to another constitutional provision that is the restrictions on the same article. And one of the eight grounds is defamation. Hmm. [00:30:00] So now, uh, defamation, the high ideal of freedom of his speech has to be balanced because the Supreme Court is of, also, of the opinion that right to reputation is integral to right to life.
So it's also a question of human dignity to save a, uh, reputation. So that's the philosophical underpinning of this balancing of interest that goes between defamation and right to freedom of his speech. Anyway, so other, other thing. Now, uh, anticipatory will, he has a good chance, see two things that you can file for defamation, either under criminal law, which are in IPC was under section 4 99 mm.
Or in civil, but in criminal law. I, I What is that? You have to. Uh, prove that the intention was mollified. Mm. It means intention was to tar my reputation. Right? But in civil, you don't have to even prove that. [00:31:00] It means even without intention, you can, so people generally who want damages or for monetary or also for go for civil, but, uh, it's a criminal case.
Uh, let's see. Uh, and now, uh, coming to the case itself, I think it's, uh, it's uh, uh, apart from the mm, dismal estate of the merit of the case is that it's selectivity. Because when this whole episode of him, uh, forming a new political party and splitting from the, his parent party was happening, so, uh, uh, on internet, a lot more damaging material was already there if you see memes and all that.
So they're equally, uh, disparaging. So, uh, the. What Anou was saying, that it's always the sidekicks who want to please the master. So master doesn't care actually about whether he is being tarnished or not, [00:32:00] um, because he, you can expect a man with ears in public life to be a bit thick skinned. But, uh, this whole ecosystem of pleasing supporters and supporters, uh, going the extra hard to please the master now sidekick business is, uh, very critical to this.
So, uh, that, that's an important point here. Also, um, in one of the cases that I cited here where the distinction is being made about the right of. Private citizen reputation and the public representatives reputation. Yeah. That decision made by the court as well? Yes. So, uh, in, in, uh, like, in lot other, uh, cases that I, uh, cited from the Hustler Magazine, one very crude joke mm-hmm.
About incest and this and how, uh, the court, [00:33:00] us Supreme Court said, no, we would have, uh, protected the individual's reputation, but you are a public representative. You are game for it. Mm-hmm. So, uh, uh, whether that distinction is being made or not, so, uh, uh, also in this age, uh. And telling that this is disparaging is a bit anachronistic because it, it means, uh, there is a flood of very, very demeaning memes and everything on internet.
So why you are so being selective that target this, don't target that. If, uh, uh, uh, also, uh, lastly, I would like to, apart from the constitution, the, um, uh, uh, cultural foundations, I think Salman in 2012, uh, uh, when in Jao literature festival, he was not allowed. Uh, and he, India today [00:34:00] conclave, he cited one thing, uh, from the performing art, say it's a considered a classical text, not Asra and, um, of Barrat muni from second century bc Wow.
So it has, I have, uh, so he, he, he said that there is a chapter in n Astra where the gods are bored in heaven and they ask for entertainment, let let us do some entertainment. And a play is staged for their entertainment. And the play is, uh, actually a play of, uh, the war between gods and the demons and.
Demons who were watching this were very offended by their portrayal. Their portrayal in the play, play. So they walk up to the stage and beat the actors. So, um, [00:35:00] then Indra and Brum make it a point to build walls, uh, around the stage and say that this is a sacred space for performative art. And this has not to be priest violated.
Uh, so, uh, it's a text. So, uh, he said that, uh,
Abhinandan: so are you saying Hinde, uh, the demons? No,
Anand: his point was different. That, uh, that apart from the constitutional values, you have this artistic tolerance, right. In your sq. Uh, we can also talk about the, uh, I think I have spoken a lot, uh, that will come back to that water.
The satire. The satire and, uh, the history of shati and violence in Mara.
Abhinandan: Oh, yes. We shall come to that. Uh, so I just wanna go to JE and then come to Raman before we go back to one above months again.
Jayashree: I think two thing, actually. Remind me three. I mean, see, I think we all know how these things play out, but, [00:36:00] and there's very little, uh, capacity I feel to surprise oneself when you read the news.
But even then, I was surprised. I was surprised that the BMC turned up. I was surprised that they said that. Checking his call records. I think, um, I. One thing is that if you've ever wondered, you know, who is the real Ena? They're telling you now? This is very much the shiv sayer of old. If there was ever any debate about which faction of Ena is authentic, this is clearly it.
And I think, look, you can be an insecure politician, you know, filled with rage and a comedian saying things about you. And even if that insecure politician is not filled with rage, it's his supporters who love him and who are showing all this. And yes, we must come to his defense. I mean, but the fact that it has come to the level of state machinery being wheeled against a person, a venue, a thug's, vandalizing a venue, then literally the official city of Mumbai is coming forward.
India's financial capital sending its people to demolish a venue. It's observed and it's also drunk on power. And politicians are overreacting, is not a [00:37:00] preserve of the BJP or its allies. But I think the impunity and the brazenness of it to shut it down to cause detriment and loss, I think it is going to new levels.
Okay. And a lot of people are saying things about Al camera's bravery and I feel like it should be said. I mean there are a lot of people who don't like his comedy and whatever, but that's might be true and that is fair, but it's also inconsequential, I think when you're sort of tipping towards autocracy.
And I think subsequent events have shown us how these things are playing out. There is great detriment for him to be experienced. For him to say what he did for him didn't stand his ground and not apologize, it is quite tremendous. And sure, I mean he comes from privilege, but so do all of us. And he has privilege, he has reach and he's choosing to use that and take on sort of.
State and government. And I think that is a good thing too, and I think it is important that people give him support in it.
Abhinandan: But what is the, um, standup scene in, uh, Chennai like, or in Tam Ladu? I mean, is there a lot of local comedy happening?
Jayashree: Yeah, yeah. Like in Tamar and it's, [00:38:00] and it's quite like irreverent.
It's right fairly t but see, again, not that th is some great state, like under and all, there were dozens, thousands of cases that were filed. The DMK also gets like DMK supporters in particular. Even if the party officially is not reacting to things, it is, its supporters who say, oh my God, like you are tarnishing reputation of X and Y.
So that sort of trigger happy ability is very much there, but not, but comedy can't exist in a form where you are not sort of sending people to demolish bloody venue over it. I mean, it is never this form of extremity. And I think people from Mumbai have always prided themselves in saying, and no offense to anyone on the panel who is from Mumbai, but there say Ahha Mumbai, you know, cultural capital, melting pot and all.
But this is happening in the city, which is terrible. No, I, I have
Abhinandan: written a piece on Bombay back in the mid two thousands when I used to write a regular column on NDTV calling out this cosmopolitan bullshit of Bombay. Uh, for what it is, just one. Complete, you know, marketing [00:39:00] gimmick, which was bullshit back then.
And it is even more bullshit now. I mean, yeah, talking of, you know, artists not having power. Uh, many do like Alman Khan. I mean, if you were to go at him, him and his fans would, you know, just the way he does bullying to lesson known artists on Big Boss and all But on today, he's posing with the Ram Boomi watch Word 34 Lacks.
And, and I, I know will not my, because he's not from Bombay, he's from K Kata, uh, where, where people like to chill. But Bombay has a culture of COEs. It is inherent in the showbiz, right from the time when I spent a year there, uh, it was clear nobody has the guts to take a stand. And that is why I have always considered Delhi way more cosmopolitan and Bombay, irrespective of its very retrograde, retrograde, um, you know, behavior towards women.
And Bombay has caught up very fast on that, by the way. But the, uh, the culture of ideas [00:40:00] clashing doesn't exist in Bombay. Uh, because show base is a dominant culture, then the stock market is dominant culture there, and both those will not disturb the status quo. Uh, there is no other culture in Bombay which dominates like the stock market.
Show business. And both these in their very nature are non-combative, you know, in that sense. But on the shindi of sidekicks, you know, doing stuff, but the leader not wanting it, I think in very often that's true. I agree with aan, but in this case it's not. And this is also commentary that I have heard on channels that this is Hindes, flex Shinde is being sidelined by faves.
Shinde is insecure about his power position. And this was his flex. That boss, I'm relevant, you can't mess with me. Uh, and which is why he's given interviews that, you know, this guy should be taken task. And now he's trying to kind of say that not only against me, he said stuff against the Prime Minister also, but the Prime Minister has not, we may say million things [00:41:00] about Narendra Modi, but he has people who have, you know, trashed Narendra, Modi have not been attacked.
Let's be clear about that. Uh, it, it is not like a satirist who, like that guy who does Thero impersonation. Mm-hmm. When he contested election, they didn't take his, but there were different reasons for that. But it's not like, so I think for Hinde, it is very much a part of his political, you know, positioning.
It is a flex that, dude, I'm relevant. You can't sideline me. And I think Vic is having fun at his expense. The second thing is I found it very amusing. Where television anchors, uh, started off this talk by how they find cameras comedy distasteful. You know, the, the loveliest thing is when people of, you know, navickas caliber, bup, jobes caliber use the word distasteful in any context.
That dude. So I just find that hysterically funny. Uh, and even, [00:42:00] uh, some of the other usual podcasters from the rightwing space, the commentary on this, on the quality of comedy, I haven't seen any comedy come out from that camp till date, which is of even smile worthiness, let alone laugh, worthiness. Uh, so I, I think there is a political motive to this.
It's not just a bunch of hoods going about this, uh, what you think, but, but you, what do you
Jayashree: mean that you don't think people who criticize Modi, no one is going after them? I mean, how, I think
Abhinandan: satire, for example, if you satirize Modi, I mean, let's take the example of us. You know, I did that show with, uh, where I was mo you know, we made fun of Modi.
We were rated, I know why we were rated way before. For other stories we've done, and I know what the stories were, you know, you get to know from people what, but, uh, the way the immediate repercussion or, you know, shaila, he's been doing more the impersonation [00:43:00] so long, it's not like, you know, a mob landed up at his house, the, this whole mob landing up at your house and the cops backing them.
I haven't seen that happening because Modi was satirized. If the political, you know, game gets disrupted, at least I think for Mr. Modi, it is only does it impact me electorally. It's not about someone making fun of me. If it's an electoral impact, there'll be repercussion. If there's no electoral impact, I don't think his ego will get hurt, but he let me know my mobs will go beat up someone that is unique to Yogi's, Hindes, uh, the rest, I mean, I haven't seen any evidence of someone mock Modi and having to face an immediate repercussion from his mob.
Jayashree: I mean, that er and cartoon, you could say arguably was. Mock more the end. So therefore they went after him point and he didn't really shut it down either. So that would be all.
Abhinandan: That's true. That's fine. Ramsa, you were saying
Raman: no, uh, in criminal, uh, defamation. Also, I think, [00:44:00] uh, it is not easy to prove that, uh, I have been defamed, uh, because I have faced one such defamation.
Hmm. Uh, in criminal defamation, he just has to bring in five people that he knows, uh, in the court and they will simply give one simple statement, uh, saying that, uh, uh, his image is tarnished, uh, for me because, uh, uh, uh, camera has said these things. So the five guys will come and, uh, just like a parrot, they will repeat this sentence.
Hmm. And the case is, uh, fine. I mean, he doesn't have to prove anything. Yes. Ka will have to prove the on is on camera. In fact, in defamation cases, the on is not on the, uh, you know, complaint. The on is more on the person who is defending
Anand: for, for, uh, defamation. If you go for criminal, the on is on you that the.
Sati or [00:45:00] joke or any insult, contempt was intentional. Was intentional. And this intention that is a criminal component, that is men rea that guilty mind. So this, this is the owners on the person with the victim of the said defamation.
Raman: Ah, so practically, practically, I don't think it is difficult. That's what I'm trying to say.
Mm-hmm. You can just, five persons can come and they, they can just, uh, give a statement. And it is proven. It, it happens like that. I mean, the case goes on, but the, I think the, uh, largely the owner says, uh, you know, with the person who has been accused of, uh, you know, tarnishing the image. And second, uh, as Anabel was saying, uh, artists and journalists mostly don't have mobs behind them.
Mobs are always behind with the politicians. And especially, uh, these be, I mean, uh, the deputy chief minister, he has got so many supporters, [00:46:00] obviously, because they get, you know, peripheral jobs and they, they are always, uh, you know, stuck with their leader. And as, and when something happens, this army is always ready to, you know, attack.
And, uh, and the third thing is I think, uh, camera, whatever little I have seen, I think his political position is very clear.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Raman: Uh, in his, uh, satire. Yeah. So, so, so, and here I think he, he spoke about naam also. He, he, he read some parody about Nipam, uh, you know, who had changed parties so many times. In fact, this
Abhinandan: changing parties was one of the themes of his yes, this, this act.
But before I come back to one, because I do, you know, I know you many of these people personally, the stars of Bombay, so you have to be careful about what you say without pissing off your friends. But I would just like to point out, because we have also received a notice for defamation, criminal defamation, especially when times of India had that [00:47:00] editorial know where I said that irony, you gave paling yarn that criminal defamation is such a retrograde step.
This was received by us. 22, the 5th of March, 2022 from the Azar Madan police station under Section 91 of the criminal procedure code. Whereas Mr. Neville ddi master authorized signatory of the complainant company, BCCL, which is the mother company of the Times Group. It's called whatever, the Old Lady of boda or something.
They call this the times, uh, having office, a trade house, ka la will compound lower per it appears you are acquainted with the relevant facts to the case. I hear by someone you, it is, uh, the publication of highly definite derogatory remarks against state material against the complainant. It's channel times, now it's anchors and senior management.
So we have received criminal defamation from none other than Times group. I have it here. I have lots of notices here. I have a full notices. So, [00:48:00] uh, happy to, you know, get into a longer discussion because half my time is spent with lawyers. That is the fact of running a news organization in India. Uh, and ironically news organizations that payload RN on their op-ed pages about criminal defamation being, uh, retrograde are sending criminal defamation.
So times I, I hope you guys. Pass this on upstairs to the buffoons who inhabit your prime times, and they are buffoons. Make no mistake, it's not defamation. It is my opinion. And I would argue fact, uh, and you know, you can send as many criminal defamations as you want, but that is a fact in our country, no one really gives a shit about freedom of speech as long as I'm criticized, because it is a certain elite, uh, who are unused to being challenged, who are living life in their way, which they don't want to be disturbed.
So if a Salman Khan or a, I think the only person who start sometimes slightly, this is Sha the [00:49:00] entire show base. Like for example, this happened in Bombay. Kal Camerara is a, you know, is a star in the, in his world. Um, but the stars with real power, not how the guts to see are dam, I mean, the cons, the huns, the this is that they have real power.
They're not going to, they're not gonna step up for anything or anybody. Yeah. Which is why I think they are becoming more and more irrelevant as, and Ka is very
Raman: consistent. Whatever he does, he's very
Abhinandan: consistent. I mean, I, I think he's, we've worked with him by the way. We will plug the show we did with him and Ra, we did a 10 episodes right.
Uh, with news laundry. Uh, so he's, and I don't always necessarily agree with him, but he's consistent and his comedy is great. He's great at delivery. But yeah. Uh. To you, the whole, you know, art being a mechanism to challenge power to, uh, give, um, [00:50:00] uh, you know, show a reflection, in fact, in up that bur holy kind of tradition in SI dunno if it still happens, has been there for the longest time.
Do you think that is completely eroded in Bombay? It was always like teetering, but you think it is getting worse or better?
Anuvab: No, I, I agree with the, you know, the point you made earlier that there's no Indian city with some cosmopolitan exceptionalism, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, I think, uh, like, uh, Joshua mentioned about Chennai.
I think in Calta also, if you criticize Mata Banerjee, there'll be fis against you. Uh, I the same, I mean, Bombay obviously, you know, it's, uh, the, the power centric, the Mara Power is very strong. So if an artist says something, um, like some of the lawyers were mentioning, you know, the, the, they will come after you and you've really got no power.
Now, uh, it is true that Bollywood stars to some extent, um, have their own fan bases and stuff, [00:51:00] but, uh, it's not in their best interest to come after to, to go and defend a camera or, uh, India's got Leighton because maybe they don't agree, maybe they agree with, uh, they're not being criticized, you know, so, so individuals, you know, who support this kind of art form.
You know, are maybe a few hundred on the weekends. I mean, Hmm. If you look at the scale of standup committee in India, right? What are we looking at, right? Maybe Zaki Khan is probably the biggest standup in India with maybe a couple of million followers and they can fill stadiums of, I don't know, a thousand people at a time.
You know, that, that those numbers are tiny compared to the people they're picking on. You know, like, uh, maybe the Indian public don't want the CEO of Ola to be criticized, a Mahindra to be criticized. You know, like you are right In the point that you made that, uh, uh, this was years ago, I was doing a show where someone said, an at a corporate show where someone said, ANAB, feel free to say anything.[00:52:00]
Anything. We don't have any censorship. Just don't mention anything specific about anyone. And that's been my guiding principle for years in comedy, which is everything is fine as long as it's not about me, you know? So the moment it's about any individual, I don't know whether we have the ability to, uh, to, to sort of accept it.
The other thing I find, you know, is, uh, I don't know, like for example, a lot of people, I. Like to file cases because it's good publicity for them also. Yes. I mean, if there was a high cost to filing a court case, uh, the politicians would still do it because they've got the money and they've got reach and power.
But a lot of the smaller cases, I think would go away.
Abhinandan: Yeah. In fact, the Sena case in up Right. In fact, some arrests have been made, which is encouraging a, a bunch of K in gra, sorry. They attacked the home of, uh, one MLA, if I'm not wrong. Uh, who had said something they said about Ma or something and, [00:53:00] and, uh, Sanga ran Sanga and, uh, there has been police action.
Uh, but it is purely like an upset to get publicity. They cope, you know, we are also somebody. Mm-hmm.
Jayashree: Can I ask kind up a question though? Like, I mean, so when you're saying, yeah, you know, you have to be really careful or not insult a specific kind of thing, and you keep that in mind, so then how do you write jokes?
I mean, what is it like to write that's the true talent? Yeah.
Anuvab: I mean, uh, you look at, I mean, I mean, do you have a favorite comedian in India? You know, because I mean, it's a, it's a, our, it's a small community, you know? Right. Like most people know each other. We also know each other's sets. Yeah. Like we know what we write about, you know, like says if you're a kaon, guil, you know, you're writing about love, romance, cows, whatever.
If you are bi you're interested in IT you're interested.
Jayashree: I think you have your sort of specialty basic. Yeah. I think,
Anuvab: I think, uh. I mean name, name a comedian you like, you know, like if you're man [00:54:00] mana, you are writing about, uh, you know, your j friend who, who doesn't know how to behave. And I think by and large, you don't know.
Maybe someone will get offended. Mm. Uh, UL Suman many years ago said something about DJs. Do you remember this? There was a mob of DJs that went to beat him up.
Abhinandan: Really? Oh my God. I didn't know DJs had a mob.
Anuvab: That's a great point. Quite a way, the way they gathered. But that has been among the, all the violet cases to me, the most interesting because it's never from the quarter you think it'll come from, you know, it's, you don't know who gets offended by what anybody has said.
Um, loads of people like Daniel Fernandez or, or sorry, people put up videos, they'll mention some obscure thing that offended some subgroup
Abhinandan: who
Anuvab: then had an issue that they never thought would ever be a, so because we are such a complicated, diverse country, the moment you say something specific about anything,
Abhinandan: there is always someone will, a group, someone will.
Anuvab: Yeah.
Abhinandan: In fact, someone will. I saw this [00:55:00] fantastic, you know, graph representation by, uh, I, I think I saw it on Insta if I'm not wrong. Um, where this guy explains the four quadrants of where jokes lie. So he says there's one quadrant which, uh, you know, are offensive and funny. Then there are ones that are offensive and not funny.
Then there are those that are not offensive and not funny. Then there are those that are not funny and offensive. You know, basically the four quadrants. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he says that quadrant that there are not offensive don't exist. That quadrant doesn't exist because this is India. Yeah.
Anuvab: And I'm saying even if you make a basic mother-in-law type joke or a farting type joke, you know, somebody's getting offended.
You know what I mean? Like there is someone who's on the receiving end of, but, but what I noticed is there's a lot of Shain Freud in India with humor. Mm. Uh which is that if you are [00:56:00] powerless and the joke is on you, people are willing to laugh.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Anuvab: You know, like something about someone who's incapable of dating or someone's physical appearance is weak.
So if you punch down that's acceptable, somehow it's acceptable, which is
Abhinandan: actually goes against the very essence of nature of,
Anuvab: right, right, right. So the moment you pick on, or you say something racist or sexist to point out some, like say a boy and a girl are talking and you've written a, a scene and the boy says something to the girl like, you are so dark.
Whatever, something offensive, people laugh at that.
Abhinandan: Hmm. So
Anuvab: they miss the fact that that is the satirical message. You want the boy to be portrayed in bad light. Mm. People will clap at what the boy is saying because they agree with the sexism in the underlying thing. So you get a lot of, uh. Insight into values of society by what people are laughing at.
Uh, and I've noticed that when the [00:57:00] weak are punched, people find that funny for whatever reason.
Abhinandan: Right. So, um, we'll come to the legal aspects and the Delhi government, um, after this, but we must let young an go. He has given us an hour of his time. So, but before we say goodbye to him, I would once again plug his podcast, uh, last week.
I love it. The complete, um, nothing nature of the conversations they have. My favorite was the abandoned underwear at an airport, I think. Where was that?
Anuvab: Someone sent us a photo of, uh, but this is the thing, like, if you can't talk about any of the big things, all you're left with is nothing. So I should mention one tiny thing, which I think is important about how India's changing.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Anuvab: Which is, and you would've seen this in camera's response. A lot of comedians, both in how they release their material and how they're communicating to the public have completely bi And I think this is important for news laundry, because you are guys are observers of media.
Abhinandan: Mm.
Anuvab: [00:58:00] They have completely, as you would've noticed, bypassed mainstream media.
Abhinandan: Mm
Anuvab: mm Uh, anytime there's a controversy, all of us comedians gets hundreds of calls from TV channels and, uh, newspapers and um, yeah. Well, I, I, I wasn't here, but I, as in, I can actually, I can't speak for myself and others that we by and large ignore it. Mm. Uh, we do not respond at all to any mainstream media.
And Kamra said something about his opinion on mainstream media Yeah. And why he doesn't respond, which is his opinion. But I think most people don't respond because they don't think it's relevant anymore. Mm. And they don't respond because they don't think that their point of view would be put across.
Right. So if they have anything to say, they go directly to their social media and communicate. Uh, which is, uh, when I started out in comedy and when the IB controversy happened, if you remember from that to now, the biggest change I've noticed is, uh, a kind of abandonment, abandonment of [00:59:00] communicating with mainstream media.
Song: Right.
Abhinandan: So, um, I, you know, wanna thank an and I will plug his podcast once again, I'll last week, which he and his friend Kunal Roy Kapo put together, where they talk about the most mundane things in the most fun way. Uh, so, but before we say bye Anab, can you recommend something that would enrich the lives of our listeners?
Anuvab: Yeah. I just, uh, recently watched a stage production. George Clooney, uh, has come back with the film that he had made. Good Night and Good Luck. Hmm. Uh, and he's made a stage production of it, and I recently saw, saw it where, uh. So he's, it just, it, he's touring the world with it. Uh, it opened in the us now it's playing in London.
And, uh, I don't know what other countries he'll go to, although we've got the N-M-A-C-C here in Bombay. Maybe Banis will convince Clooney to come and perform here. Anything is possible. Anything is possible in this world. Uh, but [01:00:00] it's very, it's very much about what happens when there's no due process. You know, like what happens when, uh, you just decide you'll ignore a court order.
It's just, mm. So, uh, and I think it's very interesting because you guys were talking about America, what's happening here? Basically, there's no rule of law what happens, you know, so, uh, the, the plays about McCarthyism and what happens when there's a witch hunt against you. Mm. And you have no due process, but it's kind of reflective of everything that's going on in the world, you know, at a tiny level, you know, what is Cam's, right, of due process, right?
Like, who is, you know, if the courts or the institutions are not there, he doesn't have a mom. Then it's becomes like the medieval world, right? Everybody has a mob of their own. Yeah, exactly. And they Roman house with everyone's gunda, you know, just, you know, then it becomes like that. So the play is very much about that, you know, of, of, uh, uh, and I loved it.
I recently saw it. And there's a film which Clooney directed, which won an Oscar. [01:01:00] Yes, of course. That is famous. But he's clearly, the reason I thought that it, it's a great watch, is that it's some subtle way. I think he's announcing that he may run for president. It just, he seemed the vibe that I got. Yeah.
Seemed like the vibe that I got because he ended the play, which was not in the film with a speech about what happens when due process dies, and the play ends with Elon Musk's Nazi salute. So, uh oh. Clearly. And the whole audience stood up. So clearly it was a play, but it was also a political message. You know, it's years ago, if you remember Barack Obama had announced on the David Letterman show accidentally that he might be thinking about running for president.
You know? So I feel like it's the beginning of something with this play with him. Uh, now whether he will last four years down the line, I don't know. And sustain, but seem like he wants to be a candidate.
Abhinandan: So, but thank you so much, ANAB. Uh, have a good day and we hope to see you in Delhi soon so that I can watch a performance yet again.
Anuvab: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We'll plan, we'll definitely plan it [01:02:00] all last week. Live in Delhi.
Abhinandan: Right? Great. See you.
Jayashree: Bye
Abhinandan: bye. Bye guys.
Jayashree: Bye.
Abhinandan: Now, the angle you wanna discuss, uh, of just the, the tradition of satire, right? Is that what you're saying? Where it comes from the No, Mara in Mara, sorry. The, the tradition of satire and the violence behind it.
I mean,
Anand: Mara means after independence, there used to be a politician and a s to run this newspaper, Marta. Mm. So he was a artery. Hmm. So, uh, actually he ran, um, means, uh, ran into rap with, uh, with a lot of politicians. Mm. But of course, Bala ab Hari Re so, um, in fact re once called him the pig of worldly in Marati.
Mm. So, uh, pig of worldly. So, uh, they had this, but what happened is that when he passed away, the si erected a [01:03:00] statue of him somewhere in Mumbai. I read it in the newspaper. And there was also, uh, this, uh,
so, uh. Um, uh, on the stage when Mr. Re awarded him some award. So, uh, uh, he said something about the lumpin of politics and this, and, uh, res responded by saying that we have made a mistake by awarding him. So, but, so, and uh, also, uh, this, uh, in 2003, if you remember this cha, the NCP 2005, he was home minister then NCP leader then.
So he, he, there was a TV show, I don't know which channel is what I, it ran a parody where they had someone ch Bal, so Arm Strong and [01:04:00] something, and, uh, the television studio was ransacked and then ch and Bal 2005. Okay. So, uh, they have also that, uh, the famous RIS was also assaulted back then. Mm. So they have this, I think different states have different way of what they consider sati.
Abhinandan: But Mara, I think this consistency in violence that is, you know, follows it is, is been there for a while, but I think it'd be interesting to see the. The evolution or the, you know, the whatever Madam Offices of the Shiv Senna from, I think ideologically the amount it has kind of moved, the flexibility it has demonstrated though the Sena, uh, is quite fascinating, you know, uh, from what it was to what it stands for today.
I mean, it's an [01:05:00] interesting kind of journey of a political party in ideology. But before we move on to the case of the cash that was, uh, found at a judge's house in Delhi on this, any, uh, blast words? Jeri?
Jayashree: No, I think I'm
Abhinandan: alright. So before we move on to the next case, and I also wanna give a little bit of time to Delhi because I don't know much about it, but I think Raman, so you have an interesting take on, on the budget that they presented.
Uh, I wanna once again plug, uh, a subscription and this project that we are doing with the News Minute and news laundry journalists that will go across the country, look at police successes. It is important we document and report and investigate such stories and not just that. So and so tweeted this and Salman Khan is wearing a watch with 30 for lack, which is.
Most of what I see on Legacy media, uh, and that is because we are supported by you. So do scan this QR code or click, click in the link in the show notes below and support our team of journalists who are fantastic and we are all very proud of them. Now, uh, this [01:06:00] case of the cash being found at the judge's house, I'm sure Sur has spoken to a few people.
I don't know whether Anan doesn't speak to too many people. He spends more time with books like Modi, although I think Modi only poses with them. I don't think he reads them. I've always wanted to actually ask Modi if I ever get a chance to interview him. You know, that photograph with Swans where he's got those books piled up and he is, I wanna ask him, give me one quote from any of those books.
I can bet you he has not read even one word from them. It was just for posing.
Jayashree: This is, this is the reason why we're not getting interviews with Moi questions. Otherwise, though, he would've
Abhinandan: definitely said comment. Yeah.
Jayashree: Otherwise he'd be like, yeah,
Abhinandan: but on this, uh, judge's case, you know, so there are so many theories going around in Delhi, and I think, you know, it deserves an investigation, which will take a long time to do.
Or the theory that it is a, he's being fixed. Another theory that no, he's not, he is working on behalf of someone else. Then another theory. Then another theory, it is something that I actually have not been able to [01:07:00] have any view or position on because the, uh, there, there are too many inconsistencies on all sides.
Like, for example, the time between when this happened to when it became public. It makes no sense to me. Mm-hmm. From the time when the fire broke out to when the fire tenderer reached makes no sense to me. Um, and as one politician in Delhi told me
there are enough people who, so I can't make any sense of it. Uh, but what do you think, what, what will be the outcome of this? Although the government is using this, is trying to push that they should have more say in judicial appoint, which I completely disagree with.
Jayashree: Yeah. So one, like you said, there are just too many inconsistencies in how it played out.
So we're saying that a fire broke out, either his personal secretary or his daughter who was in the house. [01:08:00] He was away called the police control room. The fire tenderer came. The fire chief says that he didn't find any money, but then they later they said no, that there were some say 15 crows. I think Navi Kumar on times now said there was some 50 crows.
So it's very hard to say. Then the times of India had a very mysterious story this morning where they said, oh, mystery woman in a car sweet talked authorities that night to access the outhouse where this cash was stored. So I just sense, so my thing is, when this news first came out, my lawyer friends in Delhi, so their first instinct was to say that this man, justice, uh, Burma is a very good judge.
The wide feedback is that he's good, he's clean, he has a. Perception of a competent, fair, and honest judge. And these reputations are not very easy to earn. I mean, lawyers are assholes in many sense, but lawyers will broadly know where a judge sort of lies on a spectrum. So it just seems peculiar that a judge who was held in such high regard by the bar is embroidered in this.
Also, it's very crude that [01:09:00] if he was a very wealthy and corrupt judge, why is, why does he have sack of 500 rupe notes in a publicly accessible outhouse, which he says can be accessed by the security personnel, can be accessed by staff. So on one hand we're saying he's such a sophisticated that he has this personality of, uh, inte of, you know, a judge with integrity.
But on the other hand, he is such an unsophisticated that he stores sack of cash. So it just, it doesn't make any sense to me. These pieces don't fit together. Also, I find it peculiar that the usually very opaque Supreme Court is being so transparent. They put out that press release with video of the cash, they have photographs of the cash.
And we are so used to the Supreme Court not doing these things that, I shouldn't say it, but that takes away from the credibility, the fact that the Supreme Court is offering up so much information to the general public. I find that weird, like it is not something I'm used to.
Abhinandan: So legal classrooms or colleges may catch you indulge indulgent gossip.[01:10:00]
Anand: A reputation point means people, uh, means. Judges in bar, uh, earn reputation for different regions and different sections of lawyers have different things to, uh, say. So there is no unanimity or even consensus. So lawyers have different regions to rate a judge very high. So that cannot be the sole point of means evaluating how he's or how he how.
But, uh, let us come to the fallout because as you said, uh, there are a lot of conspiracy theories going on and speculations, I I can also add five more to that, so Okay. Fine. Let's add them. No, I think means everyone has Sure. So I have, uh, my [01:11:00] mischievous mind, uh, doing means overwork every time. So, uh. Uh, but, uh, fallout like, uh, what she said that CGI, uh, has ordered a committee to be formed and the college em decision that the committee will look into.
Now, this has been challenged for two things. Uh, there is a, a very oddball kind of lawyer in the Supreme Court who gets, he, he's very senior, but, uh, he gets, uh, um, men's castigating remarks from the judges every time. His name is Matthew, or he's from, he is very senior. So he has filed repetition and se pardon?
Yeah. So that's C and CGI is said that Yes, it would be. Heard that. Why? No, IFI was filed. Filed. So. The precedent that you cite, he says in, in his petition, I read his petition. Uh, [01:12:00] so he says that the precedent that you cite is that in 1991, there was a case, AMI versus Union of Indian with Supreme Court said that the prior permission would be required if you want to, uh, initiate any criminal action.
Say again, action against the criminal act of any sitting, sitting, judge Supreme Court or high court judge. Mm-hmm. So he said that, but at that time, the judges didn't have in, in their mind that it would be a sealed against filing. IFIR that. So this, uh, uh, amounts to a kind of situation where judges have immunity, uh, and they become a very, a special class of citizens, uh, enjoying impunity against P pen panel laws.
Mm. So this can't go on first. Second, he says that [01:13:00] you see, he says, cgi, I, you don't have any power to constitute this committee because, uh, there is no provision that the cesium will constitute a committee to prove into the alleged criminal act of a judge. And the constitution has not given you power nor any parliamentary law.
So. In what power have you constituted this committee? He's coming up for a hearing today. Yes. He's coming up hearing. So he has actually, uh, questioned the committee's, uh, legal standing as well. So, uh, and the CGI, uh, has said that your case would be hard. Yes. And it'll be hard. I think so
Abhinandan: on you said that they, you create a special class of citizens that have the impunity because of the immunity that they cannot be investigated.
Don't we have the class of citizens [01:14:00] and governors? Because in the case of Tam Ladu, in the case of Delhi, uh, and to an extent, I, Punjab had already filed a, whether there was already an order, but the governor of Tamal Ladu and the left wing already directly disobeyed the Supreme Court order of who governs the state and either withheld files or withheld bills.
But the Supreme Court could do nothing. I mean, if any one of us were to do a contempt of court and go against a court order, we would be arrested at once. Mm-hmm. So. Governor is also Yes. But
Anand: his point is that that is, that is constitutionally mandated. I see. Okay. So they have this, uh, protection that, so you mean even if the
Abhinandan: Supreme Court wanted, they could not do, uh, issue a contempt, uh, against, uh, uh, governor and get them arrested?
That's
Anand: no. Not possible. There is a process for that. There is a process they have to first approach the pre president because he is appointed by the president, and so there [01:15:00] is a process for that. But here he's saying that just on the basis of a case decided in 1991 mm-hmm. You are using a case law and at that time, the.
Judges who made this ruling didn't have this. In their mind, he says that it's a question of oversight that even FIR would be prevented. Right. So he, it's rama. What do you make of this?
Raman: I mean, uh, we have several special cases, you know, special citizens in our country, the bureaucrats, the, uh, senior bank officers.
Uh, for example, I'll give you, uh, you know, uh, CBI has filed several cases of criminal, de criminal, uh, uh, you know, uh, conspiracy cases against the bank officials wherever the ling had happened.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Raman: Okay. Whether it is Alia or any other person. Mm-hmm. Now, uh, something which people have not taken note of, but if you [01:16:00] go to the CBI court, uh, such cases go to the CBI court, but the bank or the state.
They are supposed to give a sanction for prosecution of these bank officials, which, so they're not giving them
Abhinandan: sanction
Raman: to the prosecute. And this is public sector
Abhinandan: banks.
Raman: Public sector banks. Okay. They're not giving these sanctions. So what is happening that the conspiracy angle has been removed from all these cases and the, all these cases have been moved to the special court judge.
I mean, they're, they're out of CBI court. Mm. So CBI, uh, and, and by the way, uh, a very senior CBI, uh, official I had spoken to. Mm, he says 99 out of a hundred cases have gone out of the CBI code, just because we, we didn't get the, the sanction of the sanction. Mm-hmm. So I have also seen in cases of police officers, uh, big police officers who, uh, there were [01:17:00] cases of culpable homicides against them.
FI gets, uh, done even, uh, the charge sheet also comes. Mm-hmm. But the state administration, or the center or the ministry does not give the permission for the prosecution, so they also get away with the murder. You know, so I, we have several, such a special cases. Now in this particular case, I personally feel that we cannot, uh, make any stand as of now.
As of now, we should not also, because, uh. As, uh, you know, ri even used that there are many weird things, too. Sketchy itself. Many, many weird things. So I think it needs a very proper reconstruction. Mm. They, this is a crime, uh, uh, scene. So it requires a very proper reconstruction. When I say proper reconstruction, maybe you have to go a month behind, month back, two months back.
You have to take the ctv. You have to take, uh, you have to take [01:18:00] the, this judge was in Delhi Court for eight years, so at least in these eight years, the cases that he has decided from which he can possibly, he might have possibly made this benefited, uh, benefited.
Abhinandan: And also CT VI wanna see the cctv. Is it available?
Raman: I was, I was about to come to that. So he lives in a lithian zone IP area, a V IP area where you have number of CCTV cameras. Say maybe there are 30, 40. And if you go, I, I don't know which road is living on, but if I go to that road, I can see that all roads lead to, you know, each others over there. So there must be 30 to 40 CCTV cameras.
So we need to see what is the status of those C CT V cameras. Okay. And then this money 50. We where this, uh, you know, amount when, when the notes got burned. Mm-hmm. So how did you arrive at this? Uh, thank 50. Who told 50 car [01:19:00] officially Nobody where
Abhinandan: you get
Raman: that officially. Nobody has said Yeah.
Abhinandan: I
Raman: mean, from the,
Abhinandan: I'm sure you've also heard about where, um, certain reporters are known to be close to certain people.
Of course. And that's why this report. Of course. But you know, talking of CCTV cameras, you won't believe during covid time when there was lockdown. So news came under, uh, you know, what's it called? Essential services. So while we used to record hafta once a week, uh, when all of us used to come here, I used to come at least three to four times a week.
Uh, we in finance to sign checks, um, for many of the other things, you know, whether it's production related activities, et cetera. So I would come to office and usually I'd come and I'd go maybe after 9 30, 10 at night. And during Covid, there was in Delhi, there, there's like no traffic, like none, only really either ambulances or news related.
So will you believe, because I used to go back by Lowie Road, I got a call on my phone saying, uh, they said my car number, they knew it was registered and I up London, [01:20:00] uh, you go in the last 20, 25 days, you have passed Lo Road and to road, uh, roundabout two to three times every night. What is this regarding?
Raman: I was
Abhinandan: blown away. I was, who are you? You know, police station. He identified himself. I said, well, I run news laundry and because this is essential service, I go to office. I sign checks three times a week. I have to get some production work and we record the half the once a week. He said at I just checking.
So that is how fascinating. So they had actually seen that the same black Scorpios going every other night. They traced who it was registered under. I got a call from the cop asking why I passed that through this, because I passed through the VIP zone.
Raman: This is just the police station. If you go to Delhi police headquarter.
Mm. And, uh, especially in the room of, uh, the person who is heading the traffic Mm. Police. So you will see all the c he has a huge, uh, you know, uh, screen, [01:21:00] which is, uh, I think over 70 cent special screen
Abhinandan: with all the C cv. The
Raman: entire wall is a, is a screen and he's checking,
Abhinandan: which was that case where the CCTV foot footage went missing just for that period.
It, that's what we need to see. No, that was the TGA case. The May where the CCTV of just when we needed it. What, what The
Jayashree: mayor votes one. Yeah. Was
Abhinandan: there was for a particular time. I'm missing anyways, so it misses several times. The CCTV footage,
Anand: they are checking,
Abhinandan: they
Raman: and
Anand: they are
Raman: checking. No, no. See they are going, I think so far, uh, whatever little that I have read in the, they are trying to reconstruct it.
Mm. Whoever came to the house, their phones have been taken away. Right, right. Okay. So they're going to check their, uh, you know, calls and everything. Mm. And they're, uh. Their number will also tell their location. Right. Uh, and these persons, the judge had gone away. Mm-hmm. Okay. The family, entire family had gone away, so I think their cell phones must have been taken also.
So I think they are trying to reconstruct it. CCTV is important. [01:22:00] Telephones are, are, but also they're doing
Jayashree: all this late. No, because I think I said I saw it in the times yesterday, that 12 days after the, the money was burned. Only 12 days later they sealed the out holds. Yeah. And so that gap in time is very odd, especially when they're saying the police was called, the police control room was called on the 14th or 15th.
Abhinandan: And why are you
Jayashree: waiting 12 days? And in fact,
Abhinandan: if you talk to people who are the busy bodies of what is happening in LA's Delhi, some names also flying around that so-and-so's car had gone there during this period of time. So that person should also say, anyway, you would say, so the chain in
Anand: the chain of events, like what newspaper reports say that on, uh, on the next morning police were denied entry.
Mm-hmm. That, uh, no, you come later. So, uh, the SHO says that we first went in the morning, then he, uh, then they said, no, not now. Then they went, I think afternoon [01:23:00] and there was seven also. There was one procedural lapse that Panama was not done. So, uh. At the first instance, when you with five witnesses, you make a list of what has been, what was recovered and seal that.
So that's a procedural lapse, but that can happen in any means, a fire kind of situation. But how, what kind of fire it was, it could be a very different kind of fire. But these all are speculations.
Raman: I mean, here you, you could see the, you know, video Yeah. Of, uh, some, some, uh, small time employee outside the house showing the bunk.
Yeah, yeah. So, so, uh,
Abhinandan: I dunno. Yeah, but securing a space is not exactly the Delhi Police is forrey, but before we go to the emails of obviously almost 60, and we have some emails suggesting how we should maximize, you know, reading out mails, some of our subscribers have sent recommendations regarding the deli budget.
So you [01:24:00] were saying it's very interestingly done Deli budget is, it, is, uh, it's much, it's what, 18% bigger than what it was last time or something in
Raman: there. See, see, uh, the in only interesting thing about it is that how, how the center is now. Giving has have started doling out money. Yeah. 15,000 crows right from the center.
26,000. 26,000. 24,000 crow. In fact, 76,000 crow. There was a budget last year. Now this time it is like we are also turning into 5 trillion, you know, rupe e So this, the budget is of one lack. So, of which 24,000 core the center has given. I only want to say that how the previous government was gagged.
Mm-hmm. You know, that's the only thing which this, uh, budget reflects. Like, uh, for example, uh, you, uh, you know, [01:25:00] the previous government had sought permission from the Ministry of Finance that we need 10,000 loan from, from, uh, one NSS, uh, or, uh, the National Savings Scheme, you know, uh, organization. So, but they're the, it is mostly the expensive loan.
Okay. Only three, four states opt. But when billing government needed it, they wanted 10,000 crow. So they were plainly denied. Denied. Now this present government is taking 15,000, which has already been sanctioned. In fact, the, the
Abhinandan: increase from last year is 31.5%, not 18%. Oh my God. And,
Raman: and all this money is coming out from the, uh, center.
So I, I can very clearly see. And also, uh, if you look at the gender, uh, budget, uh, the, they had announced one scheme, you know, of giving 2,500 to, uh, uh, to. Not each woman, I [01:26:00] mean anyone who qualifies, uh, uh, for this. And they, they yet to, you know, give those rules. They have very loosely mentioned, you know, a couple of rules, uh, about the, you know, household income and also the fact that this woman should not be availing, you know, any other, uh, uh, benefit from the government.
Mm-hmm. So, but they are going to come up with some more rules. So we don't know how many of them, if you see the gender budget, also the, the education girl education, the budget has been cut, you know, so, so I, uh, so it's very clever. Done. We are still studying it, but my main point was it, it very clearly reflects that how the previous government wasn't allowed to work, uh, you know, for, uh, so many years.
And now when the BJP comes, so the double engine as this is what the main, which
Abhinandan: is as koi subset, it is completely undemocratic. So as a
Raman: maybe, I mean, let, I mean, maybe it is going to be good for us. So let us see,
Abhinandan: let's see how that [01:27:00] works. Now, uh, we will go to the emails. Uh, as you know, the last two episodes we have been grappling with how do you accommodate Letters, because they're increasing in number.
In fact, we had almost 50 last time. Now we have almost 60. We will read a few. But before I request gesture start, we have two or three recommendations on how we can accommodate Vijay Krishnan has written a very long letter. He has suggested that he prefers a separate show for letters rather than a hurried reading of letters.
Um, he says there are those who want to disagree with the views, so those should be given priority. Those who are just, you know, talking about there's an glitch in the app or there is something not working, those need not be read out. So, classification of letters that the ones that need to be read out because they're discussing something and those that are just, you know, pointing out something that's not working, that is more functional.
Uh, so thank you je you know, [01:28:00] all your recommendations. We will discuss then. Uh, K Jira has said, uh, I wrote a letter last week in response to discussion and tta. It was not read out. While I agree that it is difficult to read long letters, mine was about two 50 words. Some exceptions are possible. So, uh, basically JIRA's contention is that some, there should be exceptions because they are, they need that kinda work count to dissect or critique or disagree with a previous guest.
Like for example, he wants to repudiate Amit VMAs. He says, annoying and off repeated assertion that the 1991 reform lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty. There's a rather widely held but incorrect view, which needs to be contested as otherwise, many of your young listeners might well believe it.
Unfortunately, this can't be done in a brief letter. It requires a more detailed explanation. Consistently, after I wrote my letter to Nft, found a letter in the economist. Which argues my point with more effectively than I could. And Kashk j has sent me that letter. Thank you, Kashk. [01:29:00] I've read it. So I agree.
I think there's certain, uh, you know, letters that have very detailed and well thought through arguments. Although I, I agree with you that the reform is economic reform. 1991 is not critiqued enough because I think it provided a lot of opportunities for injustice and the power dynamic going rich, becoming richer.
But kika, I'm not sure that, uh, there is no evidence that millions are lifted out of poverty. I, I don't think that can be contested, although I do agree that it just changed the power dynamic and the banis and the ais became they could just, you know, ride over anybody. Uh, and, and a very unequal society is more dangerous than by and large poor society.
But yeah. So these are the two recommendations. There are others, but the few, I have marked them in blue. I want to start off because Manisha is not here. Read the ones [01:30:00] specifically that are critical of me. 'cause we should set the example. If we expect Nas to be able to take criticism, we must be able to take it ourselves.
Jayashree: Okay. So I'll read Are the ones you've marked in blue? Yeah, we can do
Abhinandan: that. But, and the rest we can do later when Manisha comes. 'cause many of them are about manisha's. Yeah. Uh, you know, uh, views as well. Uh, sure,
Jayashree: sure.
Abhinandan: And, uh, then we can also, based on all the suggestions we've got. I, a few people have actually backed your AI suggestion that all the letters that are more than one 50 words should be fed into AI that make them a hundred words.
Jayashree: I argued against ai. Oh, you argued that. Whose idea
Abhinandan: was that?
Jayashree: That, that there was a guy who wrote in using, and he said he had a very long email, but he used chat g pt to summarize. Summarize, okay.
Abhinandan: I I, it's not a bad, so, so the few people have actually endorsed their idea, but yes, please go ahead.
Jayashree: No guys, they no ai.
Also, there are two,
Anand: three mails. They also send me to, uh, my per um, mail per Yes. Personal. So for, uh, factual clarification, if you, if it, [01:31:00] uh, comes, uh, in the process, it's, well, otherwise I will point out. Yes, please do.
Jayashree: Cool. So the first email is from Sonali Singh who says she's listening to the haha after a long time, needed a break from the Mad, mad World.
It does add a little something to the news and opinions. Once get one gets from a good local newspaper. In my case, second Herald Aans rant on patriotism definition debate was quite anti-national. Needless to say, I too subscribe to the View I recommend the Real Science of Sport podcast to all media people who wish to express themselves and not sound like the neighborhood auntie or uncle on the matter of transgender athletes in women's sports.
Abhinandan: Right. Thank you. I feel definitely listen to this podcast, Sonali.
Jayashree: The next email is from Chu, who says, A religious zealot would rather shout blasphemy to silence the septics, the skeptics, than engage and change their mind. It's the same thing when progressives run away from uncomfortable questions, citing imaginary dangers.
It's 'cause they're scared of realizing they don't fully agree with the dogma. Should a trans man go to a man's prison? Should a six foot [01:32:00] three man be allowed to wrestle with a five foot six woman? Should we represent, should we respect Z fair and other neo pronouns? The realization of the self-doubt is too hard.
It's a lot easier to avoid questions by thrusting JK Rowling in Aman Kiff into the conversation. I wish my fellow Progressors would realize we are in a minority when it comes to a lot of our views. Every time we shut down a conversation, we're handing the loudspeaker to people like Trump. They take up the space to change the mind of fence sitters using insane claims and stories.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Jayashree: What is this regarding?
Abhinandan: This is, uh, last week we had a short discussion on the trance issue. Oh. Because I think they, they, they had, uh, us had removed it from the passport option. Right. A third option.
Jayashree: Correct. Correct. Yeah. Sohar says panel. What are your thoughts on how to reduce brain rot content consumption and increase intellectual consumption?
It's so easy to get stuck on Instagram reels and memes after the tiredness from my day job, it's even harder. Deep realization about my own content consumption habits hit me hard. During the recent IGL India's [01:33:00] got latent controversy. I'm trying to make active changes. NTA is helping. The too many males problem.
One idea is polling on Reddit, reading the top most uploaded weekly emails and questions. Ccp, gray, the YouTuber does this if you wanna see his implementation.
Abhinandan: So basically we put all the males on the Reddit is what she's suggesting. And then, and then the ones, ones that the highest, but
Jayashree: then everybody, so that we all have to use Reddit, which I feel like is asking me
Abhinandan: and not just us, even our subscribers, and have to be on Reddit.
Jayashree: All subscribers will have to use it.
Abhinandan: Okay. That, that actually complicates stuff a little, but, but as far as the habits are, one is don't have Twitter and install on your phone. I don't have them as apps. So if I have to go them, I have to go through the browser. So that just disincentivizes you. And the second is, um, make sure you have weak eyes like mine.
So just such a strain that you just wanna listen to podcasts and that, that way you can listen to long one or two a podcast. So that is why
Jayashree: what a what a what a useful tip. Like ruin your eyesight and then you're fine.
Abhinandan: Then [01:34:00] you're fine.
Jayashree: A lovely short email from me, Abby's comments on the US having strong institutions has aged very well.
Also, cancel culture is only a thing when it goes against the dominant narrative. And trans people have never had power anyway.
Abhinandan: Right.
Jayashree: I. Han says Hello, I'm a longtime subscriber. I want to write this letter to yell at my fellow subscribers. You folks are too courteous to do so. I don't understand the need to write detailed manuscripts as letters.
The entitlement to demand explanations when they are not read out. Folks seem to think that letter is being read out on haha is the only thing standing between us and dystopia. You've all made it clear that you read it in full. That should be enough. I strongly recommend putting letters through an LLM and reading out a one 50 word summary.
I heard RI say, let's not feed the ai, but that horse has left the stable long back. Mm-hmm. Everything we put out on the internet is in any form used to train LLMs. It's fair game.
Abhinandan: Mm. And
Jayashree: loving South Central.
Abhinandan: Thank you.
Jayashree: My war against AI is going nowhere is all [01:35:00] I can say. Yeah. The next email is from Dr.
Sneha. She says oppression is invisible to the an oppressed ab and then you're often complaining about too much wokeness. On the contrary, there isn't enough. You are an upper class, upper class straight male. You've never been marginalized. Your views on LGBTQ plus were unsurprisingly not shared by the other three female panelists.
In a feminist uprising, n LGBTQ would be natural allies and not men, not even orthodox women. Please don't trivialize another person's lived experience of oppression. Your views are often insidiously, misogynistic, as on a recent a NA episode when you discuss the movie misses. You speak for a majority of Indian men.
Sadly, when you declare that you'd rather go to bed hungry than enter the kitchen with respect to lgbtq plus to say that you all, you all are unaffected parties, is Unselfaware. As fa, Fannie Lou Hamer said, nobody's free until everybody's free. Do better.
Abhinandan: So thanks Dr. Sneha, for your subscription and for your support.
This thing about not entering the kitchen [01:36:00] is a gender thing. You know, doesn't enter the kitchen either. So I just wanna say, it's like I've said, I love cleaning because you know, for me, cooking is creating clutter. And like a Sia, a wonderful reporter, had told me once you have, what is it called? OCD. 'cause I keep, if anyone put the books this way, I put them this way.
If anyone left this way, pick it up. So I just hate cooking. Why is that? To do with gender.
Jayashree: Yeah. 'cause it is a gender occupation, right? It's so, but if I, I say I
Abhinandan: don't like to cook or enter the kitchen, that means it because I'm a man, even be
Jayashree: brought up because, just because you are an exception from a rule where by and large women are expected to do the cooking and men are expected to not.
So when you live in that, if you occupy that world as we unfortunately do, you can't just say, well now I'm separating it now from gender has also sent a very short letter, which is extremely amused by, and then adding a disclaimer that his views are because his, because of his maleness and privilege, and then proceeding to be the loudest voice in the room, claiming there [01:37:00] is no nuanced conversation on this topic, drowning out all the nuance around him.
Abhinandan: Noted Nala and your male came bang on cue. And
Anand: also privilege and elite is very relative. Uh, a privileged class of a particular space would be an, an underdog in a super elite space. Yeah. So it um, so it it's also contextual means in general sense. Yes. Privileged. But you, if you encounter super privileged, you are the underdog.
Abhinandan: And also in India it's so complicated. Yeah. Because there is of course gender, there is caste, there is economic privilege, there is access, there is, it's of course India is the most difficult out of think any of the other where these conversation is happening. In India, it's the most difficult because there is so many intersections and, and conflicting, you know, positions people are on.
By the way, we've selected most of the emails that are shorter.
Jayashree: Yes. So the next one is from Gotham who says, you an team. I've [01:38:00] been a subscriber for three years and counting. I'm writing in regarding the Todi episode, featuring a Manisha and, and
Abhinandan: Magna
Jayashree: Magna. There's a moment where AAN does Arch Friday hair and it cracks me up every time I watch it.
I wanna ask if you'd be willing to share any behind the scenes details about that moment and if a London will consider reenacting it.
Abhinandan: I have no recollection of this moment. Arch Friday. I
Jayashree: don't know.
Abhinandan: Maybe I, I'll, I'll watch this again, Gotham, and maybe I'll reenact it in the next half.
Jayashree: Right. The next email is anonymous.
It says, regarding last week's discussion and L-G-B-T-Q issues and vocalism, I was disappointed in everyone's arguments as a glaringly silly point about endangering future generations was ignored from a subscriber's email. Two people at news believe India go into population decline by allowing rights to the L-G-B-T-Q community.
Even a hetero couple may choose to avoid having children or adopt or go in for IVF. The same applies to people on the queer spectrum about me as a 30-year-old man who came out to his [01:39:00] family. Recently, I'm being forced into rigorous conversion therapy. I've heard suggestions ranging from homeopathy to alcoholism, to having sex with cousins.
Are we in the woke? You talk about with all its faults, impart courage to me and countless children and adults fighting to live in this society. Lastly, to the letter writer, I don't want your respect. I just wanna have rights and privileges. Same as you. Thanks
Abhinandan: anonymous. Um, I don't recall the email that suggested that it going to population decline, but maybe we missed that line.
But you're right. If that line existed, we should have disagreed with it.
Jayashree: The next email is from SAI who says, hi all. After listening to the discussion L-G-B-T-Q Rights, I wanna ask what the LTA episode we were promised. I think even with three women bringing nuance points to the table, aand then was quite dismissive. This is possibly the reason why he's somewhat disliked as a host.
Sima was absolutely fantastic. Aand, then please listen more when you know you are the uncle. But overall, wonderful episode this week. Appreciate the nationalism [01:40:00] and patriotism debate. Keep up the good work. Please invite people like Seima and Sha Kala more often. Noted. Honey, that episode is under production and
Abhinandan: we've recorded actually two sessions, uh, ri.
Jayashree: Correct. And we are going to make it into one episode, which should be out, you know?
Abhinandan: Yeah. That'll be a long episode, right?
Jayashree: Yeah. But then based on that, we'll see how it goes. And then we may do future recordings. So we'll keep it open to make it a series. The next email is from N 7 4 7. Who says, why is there no mechanism to renew a subscription before it expires?
I wanna block some money when I have it. Like when I got a bonus for News Laundry, I thought I'd renew it before my current one expires, but looks like I have to start an RD till my current subscription ends, then withdraw from the RD and then pay for the subscription. I would absolutely do this for other entertainment option and keep the interest for news Laundry.
However, I'd rather renew it early and make you in charge of the money.
Abhinandan: So we've forwarded this to the subscription, the subscriber engagement department. They will find a solution and [01:41:00] send it to you asap.
Jayashree: The next email is from Mitu two. Mitu two says, hi, team. I have been a long time subscriber ever since I got a job, but I've followed NL since its inception.
Mother's show was the hook. I've written to the team under several assumed names about a new show for aan. I wanted to watch a print media critique show for a long time, where the host goes through the front pages of papers and magazines and analyzes the coverage of big issues like nuisance. But for printed written media, considering l l's, USP, this could be right in your wheelhouse.
Love you all. Thank you. And uh, next email is from RHI, who says, I'm writing to second that the breadth and depth of Anand's knowledge sometimes disturbed me. Amit Anan are my favorite voices in Indian podcasting, so hearing them together on one episode was a privilege. The conversation's, deep dive, engaging, insightful, and often [01:42:00] surprising with growing anticipation.
For a's new show, I'd love to hear him do the scene and unseen, willing Amit on his skepticism towards the Indian election system and Constitution from its framing to its current structure. While I respect Amit's views, I disagree. I want honor to challenge him with counter-arguments, examples, and nuances that Amit's privilege background may not have led him to consider.
I name Anan my champion to fight the battle of Amit's, distrust of India's constitution and electoral system, my God, Anan
Abhinandan: Anan. We are ready, breadth and depth of your knowledge disturbing our subscribers. Please don't disturb them.
Jayashree: Uh, and the next email is from Sil, who says in episode 5 2 4, an while de describing the contributions of Nalanda University mentioned zero being the foundation of information science. I wanna point out zero used in information science and digital domain is different from the number zero in information science.
Zero refers [01:43:00] to a state, mostly low state, but in number system theory, it's a number. Ariba zero is a number, not a state. Many don't understand the difference.
Anand: No, uh, actually I meant, uh, modern science and information science was in inadvertent and not, I didn't mean computational. What you are referring to is the binary system zero one.
Yeah. Which, which is fairly common knowledge. Most people knew it. And, uh, but I was referring to, uh, how jro means changed the world of calculations, the modern number system also, and science, physics, chemistry, all. You took a lot of things from it. Also, one thing on the same point that Aha Ro was a philosophical ity, like he, uh, propositioned it as a kind of emptiness, as a [01:44:00] form jro, but it was Bra Gupta in a century later, another Indian mathematician who, uh, developed, uh, its, uh, functionality that what you will get when you subtract or add zero to something on and other.
Uh, but Ari's other contributions are as Dar Lier William Dar Lier points out are, are even more great, great means like, uh, uh, he. Calculated, uh, the value of pie to four decimal points. Then he was also saying things that glio and say, Kanick said thousand years later. Later, right? So if you read William DERs, he position, uh, are not only as a mathematician, but also astrophysicist.
That's it. So, uh, that was an in inadvertent, uh, error while speaking. I [01:45:00] corrected it in another podcast, podcast, I think Georgia.
Abhinandan: Uh, we left two, which is the short and sweet 97 words. Adish says, while hearing the Rania case, the Supreme Court made some oral observations, and I quote, human is something the entire family can enjoy.
Nobody feels embarrassed using all filthy languages, not talent. It seems the Supreme Court is trying to define human unlimited scope based on morality, if there's some legal or constitutional basis for this. That's a question. How was the experience of other jurisdictions which have tried to impose restriction on humor?
To what extent does it quote unquote, save young people from corrupting influences? It would be good to have some legal expert discuss this. Are they sure in luck we have a legal expert here.
Anand: What?
Abhinandan: No, you don't, but No, but honestly, is there any scope of what is humorous? There's no such, I mean, a Supreme Court has not in the past or can't define this, right?
Anand: Uh, with ity of time. We have, uh, [01:46:00] discussed it in Chacha. He, he was also there. So what has, what is the, uh, Supreme Court's test for it? They have come up with some tests, so, uh, to judge material. So, uh, you can refer to that Chacha episode. I, I have tried to reflect on it. Link is in the show notes.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. And there's one last email left.
1 26. Yeah.
Jayashree: Tarran says, hi team. Hope you're well. I'm 22 and with my small salary, I've subscribed annually. My main motive was to support the effort as I've been seeing you guys on YouTube and improving my English. But as I read the articles in the podcast, especially Hafta, the one with Malani Love that show because of her teller.
If you can, I think he means Manisha and also the book section. Thank you for the effort you guys put in. I'm two thousands born. When I started following the news, it was the GOI era. It feels fresh to read and listen to you guys. Thanks again. Let me know if you guys reply on this podcast. I'd love to hear your reply.
This is a very sweet email. God,
Abhinandan: yeah. Very sweet. Thank God. Sweet. Thanks. Appreciate it. And uh, appreciate the [01:47:00] subscription. Appreciate your support. Appreciate your supporting our journalists. I'd like to plug Aran Bailey report, uh, which demonstrates the impunity with which the police system works, how a possible lead to one of the most.
Sensational crimes in, I think that was 2004, five, I don't remember the year three, uh, of an assault in the city four parking lot, which made headlines in Delhi. Uh, when there was a surveillance happening that was ordered by Kiran Bey that Delhi Police was doing a lead that would clearly lead to some evidence of that, of being able to close the case was ignored.
Uh, and now, uh, ma'am Karen Bei is going on social media and making all sorts of claims, uh, and completely ignoring this issue, which is unfortunate, but do read that report. It has taken a very long time and it has been done very meticulously with the editors and the [01:48:00] journalists involved spending nights and days combing through everything to make sure it is responsibly written and articulated.
Uh, the link is in the show notes below. It's behind the paywall only for subscribers. Do subscribe and pay to keep news free. Let's get the recommendations. Let's start with you, Jeri.
Jayashree: Yeah. I have one recommendation, which is a nonfiction book, um, by Hampton Sides, so I think he's one of my favorite journalists and nonfiction writers out there.
I previously recommended a Polar Expedition book by him. This one tracks the third and final voyage of Captain James Cook in 1776. The thing is that I've always thought Captain Cook was a very fascinating character. Like he's this product of his imperial times, you know, so you'd expect all the usual racism and everything from him, but yet he was also very different in that he wasn't a navigator who was very committed to the idea of empire.
Also, what is great about this book is it includes oral histories of like the Polynesians, um, the natives of the lands that the Europeans claim to have discovered. I cried at the end. I found it [01:49:00] very powerful. Mm. So it's called The Wide Wide Sea. It's by Hampton Sides. And that's it.
Abhinandan: Thank you, Rama.
Raman: I want to plug three of our stories.
Mm-hmm. One is, uh, Karen, be of course, uh, we have already explained. What is it about? I think you just need to look at two aspects that, uh, I mean, you, if you are, uh, or, uh, having surveillance of your own daughter, you know, on the sly is, uh, something which is not allowed under the law. So this is the point that we have raised.
And, uh, the second is, of course, during the, uh, surveillance, uh, important lead came about, you know, an unsolved crime case, uh, a rape case, uh, which happened sometime in 2003.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Raman: So, so, so that lead wasn't followed. Uh, so, so these two important points that we have brought out in this story, second story, uh, is, uh, you know, about the stray [01:50:00] cattle, uh, you know, recently.
Uh, and I think we are gonna publish it today, right?
Jayashree: Today or tomorrow?
Raman: Today or tomorrow. So, so this Tray kettle story, uh, is. Important because, uh, you know, uh, recently one guy was just knocked out, he died, and we, we went in search of that bull and there are 80,000, over 80,000 such kettle, uh, you know, right.
Stray kettles there on the road. So we just, we, we had an in-depth story. We went to the, uh, you know, um, this, uh, shelters also. And, uh, we have done this story. So this is a second story. And the third, uh, again, uh, is a kind of promo, which hasn't come out. Monday we are going to publish. This is about the magazine Outlook, which I think after India today became the most popular.
Yeah. Uh, magazine. Especially when, in fact, in the
Abhinandan: late two thousands, during bu ala is India, today's head [01:51:00] and we know was it was much more popular, much more popular, very
Raman: controversial. They, they picked up some great stories, including the Nadia tape story they had broken. Mm-hmm. So how, what is the status as on today?
Mm-hmm. So that story, uh, a pay story is going to come out on Monday. So these three stories, and then, uh, I wasn't there last week, but, uh, whatever they're talking about your statement. Uh, I think there are two movies. One, uh, I don't know what the name, the original movies in, uh, Al. Al and in Hindi it is Mrs.
Yeah, we discussed that already. We discuss that. Mm-hmm. So, so, and they ha they're the women. Uh, uh, what Josh is saying that historically women are
Abhinandan: in the kitchen. Mm.
Raman: Always in the kitchen. They, I mean, when it comes to cooking, you just think of women. Mm. So even when you make a statement that I hate cooking, uh, in private, it is fine, but on public platform, uh, it is [01:52:00] also not a smart comment, I think.
Mm. Because, uh, why it is not so smart, smart because there is a structural, uh, context. Mm. Uh, which is and historical context, which is already there. Mm. So, uh, I think these two movies, mm. Uh, if one, see and see the role of we had reviewed, and also also fact, uh, that, uh, uh, when you say that, uh, I hate cooking on the public floor, women in the end, they end up cooking for you mostly.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Raman: Mostly, uh, women end up, so, so that is why the, you know, um, this statement also doesn't sound. I
Abhinandan: disagree, but anyway. Hmm. Uh, we discussed, we, uh, reviewed the Great in Kitchen on, I think, or, and Awesome. Great. Last year when was it released or year with Manisha also? Yeah, she was. Hmm.
Anand: Okay. So, um, I am recommending, uh, work of, uh, a writer who was awarded Pete last week.
[01:53:00] Uh, we, hmm. He's a Hindi writer, so, uh, but it's in English's platform. So he, most of his work has been translated into English. So, uh, he also, not, it's not for words, but uh, he has now got international profile. He won this No Group in International Award last year.
Song: Mm-hmm.
Anand: So perhaps he is the most prominent living Hindi writer now.
And, uh, also, uh, I'm not romanticizing or a stereotyping, a kind of writer, but he also resurrects a kind of literary persona, withdrawn and quite away from glare of book launches and this and that. Also from the hinterland. He has been lucky that his work has been, uh, conveyed by some of his more famous, say, admirers to the [01:54:00] metropolitan India.
And that. In that way he has been lucky and, uh, but a very empty, uh, kind of, uh. Amazed to the kind of literary persona you now see most. So, uh, I am, that's why in that context, so a lot of his work, like, uh, like one of his poetry collection, like Koka Ti Rag, uh, or his famous novel or, and a lot of others, but Indian Express wrote a very sort editorial on him, which somehow, uh, uh, encapsulates what I am saying.
Uh, I would add one more to thing, but who ha whoever has written it, it's an unsigned editorial because it's the side editorial, right? So I am just, uh, reading five lines from it at a time when Job [01:55:00] of a writer goes beyond the task of writing into the semantics of performance at literary festivals and book launches on social media in front of an imagined audience, the quite unru life that he has led in UL is an aberration poem longer than a poem to borrow from his own poetry, his unhurried approach, unen by the demands of a plot, resists the rush of modern, a clean.
Inviting readers to linger in the quiet dignity of the overlooked that he captures in works such as, no.
Now in the last line, his writings continue to serve as reminders that art does not demands a spectacle. That it is both the mirror and the light. It grows in the [01:56:00] liminal space between silence and sound, between absence and presence, through literature finds its home in the gentle, yet profound pulse of life itself.
So one thing I would add to that, uh, it, it has been written well, but uh, that when he speaks, when you, even when he spoke as, as his reaction to everyone, he, in the, if you listen to five lines, it's like a poem. So he speak, he speaks in a way as if the, it's not just prose, it's poetry. No. He speaks in a way that he is very guilty about speaking and, and, and the act of his speaking is an act of violence that is disturbing the calm around.
Mm-hmm. It, it becomes a violent act. So, uh, uh, that, that is, uh, my takeaway from it. So that's my definition.
Raman: Can I say something about [01:57:00] the North? Hmm. Uh, there is a very good story, and I wish we could, uh, cover it. You know, it's a good video story, but he lives in Tigar and he's 80, 80-year-old. Mm-hmm. He had signed, you know, with two publication, uh, depart Divisions.
Mm-hmm. Uh, uh,
Anand: Raj Raha
Raman: writing, uh, and they were giving him 9,000 rupees a year. Somebody came to make a documentary on him, and that fellow, when he came to know about it, he said, you are completely under underselling yourself, underselling yourself. So now at 88, he has initiated a legal war with these two departments.
Interesting. So it's a very good story. Mm. Which I wish we could go Mostly. His son,
Anand: his son fights all these legal wars. He's 88. He eight, he's,
Abhinandan: I have three recommendations. One is, um, I read the hash of Carrying Sea. It's basically for novellas by [01:58:00] money strategy. And, uh, it was followed by his book launch, which was partnered by newsletter.
And I had a conversation with him. I think he's a really fun guy. Really smart. Uh, so I highly recommend this book. I enjoyed every story. So that is one. The second is a series called, it's a podcast series that we've done with Kal Camra and Sanja Ra. I recommend that not just because Al's in the news, it's because Al's views are extremely interesting on a bunch of things and know this whole thing that one has to be consistent and everything.
And you, because these are long conversations you hear a lot of canals use on things that aren't as black and white as you know, many people assume from one standup act of his all. Uh, and I just found those conversations really interesting. And of course, Sanja, Ajara has really, his depth of knowledge also is amazing 'cause he reads so much.
So that series. And the third is because you're talking about institutional collapse. [01:59:00] There's an editorial in the Times of India by Dan Casino, Donald versus Justices what next. And, uh, he speaks about in the past also, uh, you know, Abraham Lincoln had ignored the court. Um, but the context was very different.
And now the context is general. What are the possible outcomes? So these are my three recommendations. Uh, on that note, I hope you continue to write in, we will have a system to include as many emails as possible. If he continue to get from 50, they 1 60, 60 to 70, then I'm not sure how he'll accommodate it.
But we'll figure that out. But thank you, Anan. Thank you Rama. Thank you. Thank you Ri thank you to a wonderful thank you. Sound recordist Anil, uh, thank you to a wonderful producer Pali. Uh, and Ashish was somewhere around which he doesn't seem to be around now, but thanks to him as well. See you next week.
Have a fantastic weekend, and we'll leave you with this song. Bye-bye.[02:00:00]
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