This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Anand Vardhan are joined by Dr Sumeet Mhaskar, professor of sociology at Jindal School of Government and Public Policy, and Ajoy Bose, veteran journalist and author of Behenji: The Rise and Fall of Mayawati.
The panel first discusses the controversy triggered by Samajwadi Party legislator Abu Azmi’s remarks on Aurangzeb while addressing the Mughal emperor’s portrayal in the film Chhava.
Sumeet provides historical context to the interpretation of Aurangzeb and Chhatrapati Sambhaji Maharaj’s legacies in Maharashtra. Explaining how they are shaped by competing narratives, he says: “Much more communalised interpretation is projected through movies, history textbooks, and plays”. The return of Aurangzeb to headlines shows that we are using the present to judge the past, rather than letting history inform our present, he notes.
Commenting on Aurangzeb’s legacy, Manisha adds, “When you look at the Mughals, I would say Aurangzeb was the worst of them...He's an odd hill to die on, especially for current politicians.”
The panel then analyses the “political decline” of Mayawati, and her decision to suspend nephew Akash Anand from the Bahujan Samaj Party.
Ajoy terms the suspension as a “significant moment”. Commenting on Mayawati’s “disruptive” thinking, he says: “If Kanshi Ram was the strategic genius who thought of using Dalits to become a political force, Mayawati was the person who delivered”.
On where things went wrong for Mayawati, he remarks, “She got quite distracted by her prime ministerial dream being thrashed and made fundamental mistakes in handling the social alliance which brought her to power.”
As Abhinandan and Sumeet point to BSP’s cadre being the strength of the party, Anand underlines Mayawati’s “lack of political agility” as one of the reasons for BSP’s decline.
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Hafta letters: Hafta letters: Echo chambers, role of university spaces, problematic takes
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Song: Kya Yogi hi Oggy hai?
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements
00:03:09 – Headlines
00:03:09 – Was history always controversial?
00:17:24 – Aurangzeb’s return to headlines
00:53:19 – Mayawati and the future of BSP
01:32:03 – Sumeet’s recommendation
01:39:30 – Ajoy’s recommendation
01:51:06 – Letters
01:59:40 – Recommendations
References
NL Sena - The impunity of India’s police
Sumeet Mhaskar on What’s Your Ism
For Reasons of State: Delhi Under Emergency
Behenji: A Political Biography of Mayawati
Across the Universe: The Beatles in India
Recommendations
Sumeet
In the Shadow of the Mill | Rukmini Barua
Ajoy
Manisha
The Chat Room Behind the Pelicot Rape Trial
Anand
Aurangzeb was a bigot not just by our standards but also by those of his predecessors and peers
Everyday Reading by Aakriti Mandhwani
Raman
Delhi govt got drugs through blacklisted firms, says CAG. So did Modi govt
Abhinandan
Here’s what the Hindi baiters don’t get
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra, Ashish Anand, and Anil Kumar.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a Newslaundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta. Angreze apna lagaan
Abhinandan: aur Newslaundry apna hafta kabhi nahichhorte. Welcome to another episode of Hafta. We're recording this on the 7th of March, Friday at 10. 30 in the morning. And before we get into the headlines, I would just like to remind everybody we have a new News Minute-Newslaundry project.
It is called the impunity of India's police. A prisoner is killed in an encounter, quote unquote, another is tortured in custody. There is video evidence of people being beaten up. There was a case in Tamil Nadu of someone's teeth being extracted. When this defines policing in India, is it any wonder that there is so little faith in the police?
So we will be doing a series of reports and investigations. We traveled to Tamil Pradesh, and any other city that this investigation may take us [00:01:00] to demonstrate how across states, no matter which government is in power, police impunity is an ongoing malice, malice, what is the pronunciation?
Manisha: Malice.
Abhinandan: In India.
So, Newsround and the News Minute will investigate these excesses. Our team Basant, Kumar, Maria, Teresa, Raju, Prateek Goyal, Anisha Seth, Janhvi, Haritha Manav, Korai Ibrahim, Nidarshana Raju, and Jisha Surya will fan across the country to meticulously document and investigate these. So do contribute because we don't take any ads.
We don't have to tweet in support of either Vantara. Okan Tara or any Tara. Uh, we don't have to take ads about Kumbh or any this morning. I saw one of the longest ads I've seen in my life on some Assam convention of where Mr. Everyone from Anilagarwal to Mukesh Ambani to Gautam Adani is promising 80, 000 crore
Manisha: investment in Assam.
I think Mukesh Ambani said that AI would be Assam [00:02:00] intelligence. Yes.
Abhinandan: And Modi said A will be for Assam, not for Apple. Of course we'll have to see, but the point is that's that ad. After that ad, another ad came of UP government with, so basically that is how news media is being funded. You should know.
There's this QR code while I'm saying all this. You can contribute to our journalism, which is not funded by ads of anyone. And on the front page today is Tamil Nadu governments. So basically governments are funding your news. Congratulations. I'm sure you're very happy. So support this Sena project, uh, and pay to keep news free because when the public pays, the public is served.
With that announcement out of the way, we will have two interesting guests to discuss two issues that have not necessarily been the headlines. One of them has, but one is something that, you know, we should. Speak about which is the waning relevance of Mayawati and its causes and she was in the news this week again [00:03:00] So we'll have Dr.
Sumit Maskar joining us who's a professor of sociology at the Jindal School of Government and Public Policy And we'll also have Ajoy Bose, a veteran journalist and also the author of Behenji joining us after a long time He had come in the hafta ages ago, but before we can do all that, let's get the headlines from Manisha Pandey
Manisha: Yes, BSP chief Mayawati removed her nephew Akash Anand from the post of national coordinator and suspended him from the party.
Mayawati said that she would not announce her successor till her last breath and would continue to handle party affairs.
Abhinandan: So she's pretty confident she will know when her last breath is coming, it appears. She's one of those, kya pata, kab, kahan, kaise, accha nahi. No, last
Manisha: breath will come only for everyone.
She will be chief till then. But she'll be
Abhinandan: aware and fully in her senses and agency will be on in her last breath. And it can't happen, you know, when she lets it ever after and suddenly a bolder form.
Raman: In a way, she has passed the, you know, entire blame on his nephew for the feeling [00:04:00] of BSP in the, for the past, I think, say five, six years.
Abhinandan: But we'll discuss all this in detail today.
Manisha: Madras High Court directed the INB ministry to lift the ban on the website of the Tamil weekly Anand Vikatan, which was blocked after it published a political cartoon. However, the court has said that the magazine should temporarily remove the cartoon.
Abhinandan: I mean, although they've said temporarily, but I think it's still a worrying sign if a cartoon is asked to be removed while a case is being heard.
Manisha: The Delhi police alleged a conspiracy to frame BJP minister Kapil Mishra. I like how he's BJP minister Kapil Mishra from leader to minister. 20, uh, this is in the 2020 Delhi riots case and they've said that in a written submission opposing a PIL that demanded an FIR against him.
Abhinandan: I think it's really touching that the Delhi government, the Delhi police is so concerned about people being framed, if only the tax authorities were that.
Kind to us. Anyway,
Raman: no, I, I just wonder, uh, this genuine guy who is, uh, inside the jail [00:05:00] for over three years now,
Abhinandan: almost four now,
Raman: huh? He, the conspiracy part against him is that he was part of a WhatsApp group where he was not even the He did not send any messages, but merely because he was part of it. So he is in the jail for three years and see our Kapil Mishra.
We have, we have documented videos where he is spreading the hatred. He is threatening with police behind policemen, uh, officers standing behind him. And he is being framed. The police
Abhinandan: is Delhi police.
Manisha: Amid the delimitation debate, TN's M K Stalin said that 1971 census should remain the basis of delimitation of Lok Sabha for the next 30 years.
He's appealed to young couples in Tamil Nadu to have children by next year.
Abhinandan: So between him, between Stalin, the RSS chief and a few other Swami Chakrapani type people. Indians, in any case, are [00:06:00] on order having kids, they said, or. This
Manisha: is nuts. Senior RSS leader Suresh Bhaiyaji Joshi's statement that people coming to Mumbai don't have to learn Marathi triggered a controversy in Maharashtra.
After a long time I'm seeing Bhaiyaji Joshi make headlines actually.
Raman: And Marathi And for the wrong reasons. If you are a crime reporter, you have to know Marathi because most of the Meanwhile, Devendra
Manisha: Fadnavis was quick to say that we, he hasn't heard the statement of his and Marathi is a must in Mumbai and Maharashtra.
We respect other languages, but there's no compromise on Marathi as every person living in Maharashtra should know and learn Marathi.
Abhinandan: In fact, Eknath Shinde made the statement that how can anyone betray Bala Saheb Thackeray's commitment to Marathi, Manus and Marathi, the language. So basically. This whole, and Amit Shah is in Maharashtra today.
No, sorry. He's in Tamil Nadu today. So the whole Hindi drivers got a bit blunted with Maharashtra also chipping in now.
Manisha: Going back a couple of centuries, the [00:07:00] big headline of this week. Going back a couple of centuries.
Abhinandan: Not couple. Yeah. More than. Four centuries. Four centuries. That's a great headline. We should say going back a couple of centuries.
And the latest news.
Manisha: Yeah. The latest news was that my Samajwadi party MLA Abu Azim got suspended from Maharashtra assembly because he said that. Aurangzeb was not a cruel ruler and that Aurangzeb built many temples. And he said, he's not a cruel ruler. You also said that it wasn't Hindu and Muslim, uh, you know, the fights between Aurangzeb So we can get into that.
But this was like main news throughout the week. And
Abhinandan: it made a prime time on, and, and right on cue, we have, uh, Dr. Sumit Maskar, who's joined us. Thank you so much, Sumit. I pronounced your name correctly. Yeah. Okay. So do I call you Dr. Maskar or Sumit? Sumit is fine.
Sumeet: Yeah.
Abhinandan: Okay. So for our audience, uh, Dr. Sumit Maskar is a professor of sociology at Jindal School of Government and Public Policy.
OP Jindal Global University. He has earned his [00:08:00] doctorate in sociology from the University of Oxford and holds an MA and MPhil, uh, in political science from JNU, New Delhi. He's a recipient of the prestigious research fellowship awarded by the Alexander Von Humboldt, I've mispronounced that clearly, Foundation, uh, and you can see the link of his episode with our colleague Sudipto on what's your ism, which got a lot of very fantastic feedback.
So thank you Sumit for joining us. We will just complete the headline and then come to the issue at hand from a few centuries ago. Hundreds of farmers were
Manisha: detained by the Punjab police on Wednesday as they attempted to march towards Chandigarh. Farmers, part of the Sanyukt Kisan Mocha, were met with heavy security barricades at over 25 locations across the state.
Self professed miracle healer and face of many memes, Punjab pastor Bajinder Singh has been booked for sexual harassment, stalking, and criminal intimidation.
Abhinandan: And he's on the run.
Manisha: As part of its [00:09:00] ongoing drive against the drug menace, Punjab police, meanwhile, has demolished houses and shops in Amritsar, six properties in Khanna, and they've conducted raids leading to arrests of 75 alleged drug smugglers, and there have been about 55 FIRs, and with this, the total drug smugglers arrested has reached 622 in just six days.
So clearly it's like now panic mode. Yeah. That we have to deliver. This was a promise. Now let's, because drugs was a made promise, I promise, and they were not doing much, but
Raman: made this, uh, this, uh, demolition bit is not driven commonly, you know?
Abhinandan: Yeah. It's not,
Raman: it's not. Demolition is a
Manisha: demolition. I still think it, not against No, but if, if my, if I am not involved in a crime, my house should not be raised down.
Doesn't matter. I mean, if it's commun or not. No, I think you're
Abhinandan: right. I mean, to your point, both can be true that it is not communally driven. But I think this, this thing of. To show justice is done as a metaphor for justice, bringing down [00:10:00] go downs, homes, shops through bulldozers was. earlier a symbol of just Hindu dominance or some say they even Hindu, uh, you know, Hindu shops were demolished in Uttarakhand and Uttar Pradesh, but it was a thing of they hope that, you know, the swift justice.
Now, if it's catching on like a virus in other states, it's deeply worrying, which means everyone should move in. Everyone should move into society with flats, then they cannot demolish. The
Manisha: house doesn't belong to one person. The family should not suffer for the sins of one person, even if they are convicted.
I'm fine
Raman: if a drug, if a godown is found with full of drugs and that Godown is illegal. If they, if they demolish it, fine. But yes, if it is not illegal, if it has, uh, then, then seal
Abhinandan: it. It's become a bit of a metaphor now. Anyway.
Manisha: Supreme court on Wednesday, criticized the Uttar Pradesh government for demolishing the homes of a lawyer, a professor and three others in Prayagraj in 2021 saying that such actions send a shocking and wrong signal.
Abhinandan: The Supreme court has said [00:11:00] this about three times now. Nothing seems to Impact what actually happens on the ground.
Manisha: Meanwhile, prime Minister Ranger Modi inaugurated, Anban owned Wildlife Conservation Park Van Tarara in Gujarat. Lots of videos came out of it. Lots of memes. Lots of pictures of the pm chilling with share.
Share. KISSA shares, share share. Kissa. Yeah, all the BJP guys were tweet. , she que whatever, uh, days later, Gura Forest Minister Berra said that at least 286 Lions, including 143 Cubs have died in Gura in the last two years.
Abhinandan: But meanwhile, celebrities, because this was the perfect coming together of the two of the people who provide them protection and, and money, the ban and, and mohi.
So I said, what wonderful thing Mr. Mohi. At Anant beta you've done such a good job. It looks like a zoo. I don't know what it is But it looks like a private zoo to me of [00:12:00] some Mexican drug cartel
Raman: I don't know the legality of it, but you know from my IFS senior IFS friends What I've heard that they are really taking good care of animals, which we cannot the government can
Manisha: we certainly can't but also I think you're being harsh Um, Ananth may be very good friends with everyone and they're just promoting a friend's project.
We all promote our friend's projects. Why not?
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Manisha: They're all retweeting and congratulations to Ananth. So it's basically.
Abhinandan: Well, I try not to promote my friend's project. But anyway, because that would really.
Manisha: Then you're not a good friend. What sort of a friend are you? Okay, then I can
Abhinandan: either be a good friend or a good CEO of Newslaundry.
I'm happy to do that. Everyone start doing wonderful stories about us.
Manisha: Through pure personal handle you can do it. I'm not saying Newslaundry. So they're making Reliance do something. Or making Red Chilies
Abhinandan: do something. Dude, if I do it, you guys will eat up my head first. No, no, you do it on your personal Twitter.
Even if I do it on
Manisha: my personal Twitter, you'll be okay? You're a very terrible friend if you're not doing it. Okay. [00:13:00] The Bombay High Court stayed a Mumbai court's order directing the registration of an FIR against former Semi Chief Madhavi Puri Butch and five others over alleged stock market fraud. And other headlines, stock market has been like,
Abhinandan: Yeah, it's been coming down.
Manisha: Donald Trump addressing the U. S. Congress announced that reciprocal tariffs will be imposed on India, China and other countries on April 2nd. They're coming. They're coming. Tariffs are coming. Uh, he said that India charges us auto tariffs higher than a hundred percent. The system is not fair. So auto, textile, pharma, these are the three.
sectors that are going to be impacted by this. However, he backed off of a previous announced tariffs on Canada and Mexico after market blowback. So he's given them one month of
Abhinandan: time. Yeah, but the thing about, uh, you know, uh, having Musk in a headline is that by the time this goes on, the headline is only changed.
Whether it's on Ukraine, like today he said there's a solution, only I know it, nobody knows it. It's in his head something to you day after tomorrow. Yeah. [00:14:00] So day after tomorrow, he may say that I'm continuing arm supply. I really don't know what to make of it. But anyway, so those are the headlines in the studio.
Anand Vardhan, Manisha Pandey, Raman Kirpal and me. But, uh, before Manisha, give us a bit context about what you're going to discuss regarding this. history and its interpretation and, you know, an MLA being suspended because he said that Aurangzeb was a good ruler or whatever that means, a good or a bad ruler.
Uh, before we get specific to that, Sumit, history as a subject, has it always been as controversial as politics has made it? Not just in India. I remember during the Uh, you know, Black Lives Matter movement, et cetera. Uh, and there was, I don't know what that, um, protests were in Europe, but they started bringing out statues of slave owners.
There was this one. Roads. Roads must fall. That kind of thing. Yeah. And also someone said that the road scholarship should be renamed because apparently Mr. Rhodes, after whom it's. Named [00:15:00] had some history of, uh, you know, being a part of this entire Western imperialism, et cetera, et cetera. So has history always been very controversial or has it become in the last two decades or so?
Sumeet: It is about, uh, you know, history is also about having different perspectives and what we see at least, uh, in the present day is that of course, scholarship also develops by challenging the earlier views. With new evidence or challenging earlier opinions. Uh, whether these initially founded on some solid evidence or not.
And that is a good part about going, you know, looking back at the past. Uh, but the politicization of that, of course is, uh, in terms of, uh, you know, bringing that alive in the present, uh, seems to be a new thing. Uh, so there is no hidden secret that. The Rhodes, uh, after whom the Rhodes scholarship was named, uh, thrived on the slave trade [00:16:00] or using the slaves for, you know, the sugarcane production or all kinds of products that were grown.
He's not the only one. There are several of these traders who pretty much use the slaves as laborers. And that's how is also the foundation for several American private universities as well. So there is no secret to that. Uh, it's just a new trend that what do we do with the past that it is there now and what is the best way to correct that past.
Uh, one of the ways in which probably countries like Canada are doing is that they admit that yes, you know, the land which they are pretty much using was part of the, in the aborigines and they admit that fact and then they move ahead by admitting that fact. Uh, the other way is like, you know, breaking the roads.
Statue, uh, in Oxford University, that's the major, because that's where he studied. And that's where he also donated, uh, a big bunch of his wealth. [00:17:00] Um, so therefore that one, uh, has a different kind of, um, politicization. And only what we see here, uh, right now with history. And which we will come to in a bit, uh, is far more religious.
It has far more religious connotation, uh, and that is also twisted in terms of facts and how it is particularly used to, you know, carry forward a particular kind of politics. So I would say that these are two different strands in some way. I see. Okay.
Abhinandan: Uh, now coming to the specific news cycle at hand, Manisha, just give us context of what was said and what action has been taken under what rule or law?
It
Manisha: starts from the fact that Chhava is this extremely popular movie which is on the life of Sambhaji. And I, I don't know what the context of the question was. Why was Abu Azmi talking about, I think he was responding to Chhava, the movie, which shows, which is kind of a very [00:18:00] black Retelling of the Maratha versus Aurangzeb wars.
So, um, he basically said that we should not look at Aurangzeb as a cruel guy. The GDP, India's GDP was very good. We, uh, the rule extended till Afghanistan and blah blah blah. And that the wars back then weren't about Hindus and Muslims per se. It was two kingdoms going at each other, where I think he's absolutely right.
They weren't so neatly divided between Hindus and Muslims. But this, I mean, Sambhaji and Shivaji are legends in Maharashtra. And now we are at a point where we can't have any nuanced discussions about their rule. How they were or how the moguls were.
Abhinandan: And they also want an AFI filed against him for they have for even, well, they've only filed an FFI
Manisha: and he's been suspended from the assembly, which I think is just a massive overreaction.
Raman: No, but any praise of, uh, orange in Mara is, is a taboo. I mean, you just, there, there are historically.
Manisha: There are, uh, so many young people who've [00:19:00] been slapped with UAPA for putting up WhatsApp, you know, maybe like a line or an image of Aurangzeb as their DP. So
Abhinandan: it's a
Manisha: very contentious issue in Maharashtra, precisely because Shivaji is a
Abhinandan: god there.
Right, right. In fact, it's gone so far, I think, uh, Uddhav Thackeray has asked for an Bhaiyaji Joshi. For suggesting that you can get away with Hindi in Maharashtra without having to learn Marathi. He said there should be an FIR against him. No, and for what? For sedition. I like, dude, you were the chiefest of the state.
Yeah. Don't scam on like this.
Raman: No, I have another question. An the, I mean, if there is a question on Orgi in IAS exam and, and, and we end up criticizing Orgi, I think you're going to lose your seat.
Anand: We, no, no. Praising if you praise no mental worldwide. There is now a trend of archeology, of offense, like, uh, digging past, uh, [00:20:00] four.
Contemporary political stand and orientation. So, um, whether it's Black Lives Movement or other, um, uh, means, um, recollection of past. Uh, but it's not also new because historiography has schools, means it is, when you take advanced course in history, first thing they teach you that these are the schools of historiography Generally focus on particular areas like we will emphasize this, we will emphasize that that, so, uh, orange J coming to Orange J uh, now, uh, say even Nero in discovery of India and other race would levels him as a religious fanatic and a big, big one.
And, uh, Audrey T's book, which came in 2017. uh, tried to defend, uh, uh, Aurangzeb on [00:21:00] various grounds of bigotry and that no, he was not a bigot. But people who, uh, you cannot label as right of center, like Girish Shani has written that No, it, he was not only bigot by today's standard, but he was bigot by the standards.
And he has given a lot of evidence and how Audrey Tuskay's evidence is thin and she has just picked it from so. So that is a different matter here. I mean, say, uh, now. Uh, in Marra, Azi is, uh, a d uh, deification as an icon, particularly in sixties by, uh, ENA. And later in, now it, he became a political icon also because he is a symbol of resistance against outside.
So against the outsider. in 60s, where the migrants, particularly from South India, and in [00:22:00] 80s, because of the communal tension in different places in India, as well as Maharashtra, he became a symbol of resistance against the. minorities, like Muslims. So, uh, this, uh, in political iconography and deification of Shivaji, the resistance part is very important as a political narrative.
So, uh, whether, and how outsider is defined, it is sometimes defined as the migrant, sometimes the Muslims. So, at that time, it was the ideal political symbol to have
Abhinandan: for that xenophobic politics, if you like. Which Balak is So, uh, Sumit a, um, I mean, do weigh on everything because you will have the most informed, uh, view on this.
But on a specific question, when we talk about rulers of the time, you know mm-hmm . Ashoka, for example, the cuing war, you [00:23:00] would probably know numbers if at all. They're credible, was one of the bloodiest. Yet he is seen as this wonderful man. Uh, but that's what Kings did, right? They killed people, they raised.
you know, religious structures to the ground and they establish their authority. And if they're to be measured by today's standards, keeping everything else the same, I guess it would be efficiency and the extent of their rule. In which case Aurangzeb was extremely, uh, efficient like Genghis Khan and the rest of spreading his rule, because after that is when the empire collapsed.
Uh, so do weigh in on that. And, you know, specifically on when I studied ICSE, I'm talking about the 80s, the chapter on Aurangzeb, like Anand rightly pointed out, he was taught to me that he was a bigot, cruel, jaziya, shaziya, Akbar was a wonderful man. He
Manisha: was the worst of
Abhinandan: the Mughals, basically. Akbar was a wonderful man.
Golden Age of the Gupta Empire, I remember those [00:24:00] chapters, if only they had been written in some way that would keep my interest alive. So even I could have had a teacher like the professor here, but I remember Akbar, nice guy, Aurangzeb, horrible guy, Bimbisara and Ajaad Satru, four line chapters. So there were favorite chapters because you had to know nothing on them, but that's what it taught to us.
Was it good, bad? Aglya and Ashoka, of course, wonderful man, even though he oversaw the bloodiest war.
Sumeet: Um, yeah, I think, um, maybe I'll just go to Abu Azmi's. kind of situation, uh, because I think his kind of comment has to be looked at against the backdrop of Chhava movie and the debate it has actually stirred in Maharashtra.
So if you look at several Marathi news channels, uh, there is a constant debate now for the last one week, uh, all major news channels are carrying out debate that what exactly is, uh, you know, uh, the story about somebody in Maharashtra here. And who is responsible for his death? Of course, [00:25:00] his death was brutal and, you know, the way it is characterized, one may agree or disagree.
Uh, but I think as you said, Abhinandan, you know, that's what rulers were doing. Uh, so that's besides the point here is. Uh, that there is one view which has, which has come through these debates is that there were, uh, these clerks, uh, of the Brahmin clerks army, uh, who actually passed on the information to Aurangzeb about the whereabouts of, uh, Sambhaji and which actually led to, um, the capture of Sambhaji and then what happened, uh, later.
Then there is one more, uh, information that is being circulated that there are also these Maratha Jagirdars. who also were complicit in this passing on the information. Uh, so as far as the history is concerned, much of Sambhaji's history that we know, uh, comes from the early 19th century from the Bakhars that they would call in Peshwa's times.
[00:26:00] And in that Bakhar, the way Sambhaji is projected is that he's a drunkard and he was a womanizer. And that, uh, kind of interpretation was again, uh, reproduced in the late 19th century Marathi literature. And that became a part of popular discourse. But, similar, without challenging this particular image of Sambhaji, there was another kind of, uh, interpretation saying, okay, fine, he was a drunkard and womanizer, but he was also a brave, uh, leader, and he was somebody, uh, um, Dharmavir.
You know, the protector of the religion. So this kind of interpretation got only challenged much later in the 80s and more prominently in the 1990s. So it took really long period to challenge this interpretation because it is in the 90s that Maratha organizations emerged like 2000s, particularly Sambhaji Brigade kind of organizations.
of Marathas emerge, [00:27:00] where they also begin to challenge that, how can you say that Sambhaji was a drunkard or a womanizer? Is there a historical evidence to that? And then this particular image is being challenged by different kinds of evidences saying that he was, uh, you know, he was a very knowledgeable person.
He knew Sanskrit. He knew several languages. Uh, he was, of course, a brave leader. And then there is this another image that is projected is that of a Swarajya Rakshan. So instead of, uh, Dharmavir, uh, it is about Swarajya Rakshan because we are not talking about a war between two religious. Kind of, uh, kingdoms, but it is more about the Swarajya or the particular that Swaraj, that Maratha kingdom was.
And because on both sides, you have people from both religions. So from Aurangzeb side, you also have Brahmins. You also have Marathas who are working for Aurangzeb and also same [00:28:00] thing for Sambhaji that you have Brahmins, you have Marathas, and you also have Muslims who are working for Sambhaji. And therefore this interpretation, uh, is a matter of contestation.
So what was happening post Chhava film was that this particular discussion on particular caste was actually disturbing the communal narrative. And what happens with, uh, and this is my reading of the situation, is that the moment, um, uh, Abu Azmi makes this statement, and if I'm not wrong, Abu Azmi was asked question something about the north of India, because there were some temples, uh, which were patronized by Aurangzeb in north India.
And then Abu Azmi happened to, of course, say that, you know, uh, Sambhaji needs to be also looked at into broader perspective of the nice things. He may have done but then the moment of was me talks that everything is now shifted The entire discourse is on the communal
All: and
Sumeet: then therefore now Aurangzeb is seen as [00:29:00] this Muslim ruler and who?
Brutally killed somebody who is a Hindu leader so therefore this particular tension has always remained in Maharashtra and Uh, I have a slightly different opinion again on the Shivaji that as far as Shivaji is concerned, uh, one image is that of, uh, the protector of cows and, um, Brahmins, which is the Brahminical interpretation of Shivaji.
Uh, then there is a non Brahmin interpretation, which is where Jyotira Phule is the first to actually, uh, go and check his grave. Uh, Shivaji and he write, he describes Bhushan and Kulwadi meaning the people who are peasants and toiling masses. So he's the leader of those masses. And this conflict of these two interpretation has always remained in Maharashtra.
Of course, political parties who are on the Uh, side of more communalizing narrative would use, uh, [00:30:00] Shivaji's, that image of being, you know, the protector of cows and Brahmin and protector of religion. And same thing is now happening with Sambhaji. That you have to provoke, uh, that kind of image that he was a Dharmavir, that he was fighting for the religion and therefore he, his death should be seen as an attack on the Hindu religion.
All: Whereas
Sumeet: that is not clearly the case, so there are contestations that are very much there in the public sphere.
Abhinandan: And that is how it was back then, I'm guessing, you know, across whether it's Aurangzeb or any other ruler or. king. It was king versus king, right? Now, for example, uh, Aurangzeb, some of his main generals were fighting the Rajputs.
So Rajput, whereas the, uh, uh, that of Chetak, who was the master of Chetak? Rana
All: Pratap.
Abhinandan: Rana Pratap's general was Muslim. Is that true? There were these like Muslim general to a Hindu Rajput. Shivaji,
Manisha: uh, Sambhaji also had a Muslim brigade, like their war cry was Yali. [00:31:00] Yeah.
Sumeet: In fact, I mean, there are pretty much historical records of Shivaji having his most trusted lieutenant as, uh, who is from a Muslim community.
And he also patronized one of the Dargahs. So all these informations are there. It's just that, uh, much more communalized interpretation is projected through movies, through the history textbooks, uh, and through plays. So, and one of the variants, which is the anti caste Ambedkarite, uh, kind of variant, uh, which, uh, actually, um, took form in one of the plays in Bombay, which was performed like a couple of years ago.
Uh, the play was titled as, uh, Shivaji Underground in Bhimnagar Mohalla, uh, which pretty much actually challenged this, uh, communal. Uh narrative of shivaji where it showed various caste groups who were associated with shivaji's army various religious Groups who are associated and therefore [00:32:00] this hindu muslim binary has been broken down But obviously, uh as far as the maratha groups are concerned.
They haven't really taken forward this Swarajya Rakshak image of Sambhaji, uh, to the masses because probably this is where there is this conflict over Swarajya Rakshak or Dharamveer And the somehow I think it's it's interesting that the Chhava film brings out these kind of debates Uh, but then Abu Azmi's comment are not new.
Prakash Ambedkar himself had visited, uh, Aurangzeb's, uh, you know, uh, this grave in 2023. And he had also, uh, you know, he paid a floral tribute to that. And he also said that there is nothing wrong in visiting and he was a ruler and one should know history very well. And, uh, of course Aurangzeb ruled for 50 to 60 years and given the kind of wide ranging [00:33:00] complexities that India has in terms of so many sects, religion and all kinds of things, uh, it would be impossible to be this, you know, this brutal ruler and only be ruling for continuously for 60 years.
It has to, one has to accommodate several things. So rather than looking for a very kind of pure kind of history that, you know, which doesn't have, uh, any kind of obstructions, this is what is creating a problem because these, we are trying to frame a history through present, uh, rather the past should be informing us about the present.
So we are trying to use present to look at past and the past was far more complex.
Abhinandan: And not just that, you know, before I throw down to the panel for your comments also. A couple of things. One is, which is the place where we discuss history, um, as an academic exercise? One would think, you know, panel discussions could be those like, you know, [00:34:00] Sumit said showbiz will be showbiz, you know, showbiz, like even I think History Channel or Discovery had done that mega budget show on Jesus several years ago.
It was for mass consumption, so it will be a certain type, you know. A film like JFK will be of a certain type. It, you know, promoted some conspiracy theories without any evidence. But it was to become a super hit in Hollywood. Similarly with Shawa. Politicians will use it for political purposes. But I would hope there are some places, because news panels are out.
News panels. Have people like, what's her name, uh, um, Times Now's editor, Navika, saying that, uh, what did she say? You're from Pakistan. If you, people are asking, I'm not asking, you've covered it. Pakistan,
Manisha: that was for Shama Mohammad. I mean, it's
Abhinandan: disgusting. So news panels are out, the assembly is out. So where do you discuss history in a sensible way?
Because Hollywood, Bollywood and, and [00:35:00] politics will always discuss it. in a very partisan way. Have we completely finished that option in our country?
Raman: No, just adding to what you were saying, uh, before, uh, my take, uh, Bollywood, uh, is actually using present to look at the past. I mean, as And also financially, it's very viable for them.
Yeah, it is, uh, viable for All purposes, I mean, to be in good books of the present government. I think each, uh, person, uh, I mean, Aurangzeb had a, had different shades. Uh, he was cruel, as we say, because. He, he, he killed his brother, I think ko. Yeah. Yeah. Then he, he imprisoned his own, uh, father as did so many others.
Ah, he imprisoned his own father. And, uh, he also, uh, got, uh, you know, his, uh, Hindu, uh, employees converted. I [00:36:00] mean, as. Some people claim. So, so these are the things which say that he was a bigot and he was, uh, you know, cruel and, but administratively as, uh, Sumit says, I mean, of course he lived for 88 years and he, he ruled for 55 years.
So, I mean, obviously, and, and he, and in entire India came And, uh, Akbar was liberal. Shahryar was not so liberal and he was Uh, bigot. This is how we have been taught history. So he had different shades. He must be a good administrator because he ruled for 50 years. And for the first time, the entire, uh, most of India came under him.
So, so
Manisha: I think that
Abhinandan: is
Raman: it.
Manisha: So, um, I think three things. One is When you look at the Mughals, I would say Aurangzeb was the worst of them. And to me, the legacy a person leaves behind is what happens to something after you die, the [00:37:00] institution after you're gone. So for us, and that's why probably we were taught Akbar is great.
I consider Akbar great because here's this man who comes, who forms this formidable, formidable Rajputs and makes Mughal empire into a force that lasts two generations. He's equally cruel. It's not like, I don't think when we talk about cruelty, but I'll come to that later. Uh, Akbar. And actually Mughal Empire after Akbar is a Rajput Mughal enterprise.
It is not Muslims. It is very much Muslims and Hindus fighting wars together. And Aurangzeb hacks at it. He completely, you know, goes against that spirit of making concessions when it comes to Um, Um, Taxation or religious festivals or celebrating your religious festival or whatever. And that is why the Mughal Empire completely crumbles after him.
He doesn't leave anything.
Abhinandan: Damn, you're really paying attention to history class, man.
Manisha: But, but, but that is what happens to
Abhinandan: So, I passed with ease.
Manisha: [00:38:00] And I think, so for me, Aurang, and that is, you know, once we're a weak Hindustan, quote unquote, and that's how then the East India Company comes in, whatever. So to me, he's not great. He's an odd hill to die on, I think for a current politician, especially for Abu Azmi. And politicians have to use these figures to say something to the public, right?
Gandhi's use of Ram or Ram Rajya was to convey something. So for a modern day politician, I think you Don't have to defend Aurangzeb. You can be crafty enough. It's not a smart thing to do. Because you're not an academic, you're not getting into nuances, and no one will anyway get nuances. So, you can, you have an Akbar.
You can, you can fight for Akbar, I think. You can die on that hill, rather than, as somebody who promotes temple constructions, you know, talks about religion, talks about people getting together, fights together, rather than be with this You know, small hearted person that I think Aurangzeb was till the very end of his life.
Raman: Maybe it was not his informed opinion, but I won't say that he should not say.
Manisha: I mean, I'm saying freedom of expression is a different thing, but I'm saying if you are a crafty, [00:39:00] smart politician,
Abhinandan: what is
Manisha: the messaging you want to give
Abhinandan: out? I
Manisha: think you can choose your battle better with Akbar than Aurangzeb.
On the aspect of cruelty, The very interestingly when I'd gone to West Bengal for the elections, you know, the Khela Hobby song The first line I asked this guy who sang it who's who's now I think he's an MLA The first line says, my Bengali is, I can't say it, but it basically says bahar Like, basically the first line says that outsiders, borgis, have come.
They were equating borgis to the BJP. That was TMC's slogan. So I asked them who were borgis. Borgis the 17th century that came to West Bengal who were known to plunder and Like deeply cruel force. Mm. They're known for looting, leading pillage.
All: Hmm.
Manisha: So that was the time. I mean, no one was exceptionally, I think every, I think even ABA and cha were equally cruel as
So, so if, if we had to, so cruelty was a feature of that time. Make India
Abhinandan: great again. The bal wing of the [00:40:00] BJP, that is the great thing because that's clearly what they do Well, sorry, Ajo has joined us. Hi Hijo, uh, Bo we will be coming to,
Ajoy: I'm so hearing mogul history. .
Abhinandan: Yes. In fact, we have a fantastic panel.
We have Dr. Sumit Maser talking to us about, uh, in fact informing me, uh, about lots of things that I wasn't aware of. But before we, uh, you know, come to the BSP and Beji and we will also plug your book, which is now old, and we have had you on that ages ago.
Ajoy: And please, and please plug the third edition, which came out in 2018.
Which was changed a little bit. Uh, it's called Benji, of course, but, uh, uh, instead of the subtitle being the political biography of Mayawati, I said the rise and fall of Mayawati. So that was seven years ago, uh, and in seven years ago, a lot of people, I mean, of course, she was furious with me and, uh, her supporters, but also quite a few political pundits thought that [00:41:00] I had.
Too hastily written a political obituary. We'll
Abhinandan: get to that. Yes. But, uh, Anand, let's come back to, uh, more recent times from four centuries ago.
Manisha: I want to add one thing on Marathas.
Abhinandan: Yes, please go ahead.
Manisha: Marathas, I think I completely get the legend of them and why they're so important precisely in the same way that I think I find the Vietnamese resistance against America quite fascinating in the same way.
I think Marathas through his life, Aurangzeb spends trying to. beat them and he's unable to do it. So the resistance they put up, now we are giving it a communal color and like Sumit said, it's more about, you know, your national or your territorial integrity, but it was quite a remarkable force. We were able to push back in a very remarkable way while being mostly peasants, right?
That would be the accurate description, not very heavily, you know, with gun, with artillery, not really trained in warfare or not as sophisticated as the Mughal army, but really like raiders who could
Abhinandan: wreak havoc. Anand, anything you want [00:42:00] to weigh in on what you've heard?
Anand: These things are, there means is talking of al
from where RA is taken is a literary work, uh, where it, the rise of people against Muslim rule. It's basically based on that. People forget that. Hmm. So Bengal had different kinds of articulation of resistance means in different kind anyway. So I think it means, uh. It is not very difficult. Like, uh, eh h card.
The great British historian said that, uh, read the historian before you read the history. He will like the history he likes. Mm. So, uh, there have been different interpretations, but some of the arguments, uh, as, uh, Han's essay on Orang Debunks, like, uh, he protected temple. So he says that, uh, if, if a sexual predator.
[00:43:00] Leaves five women and molests ten. You will say he's a great human being. So this is also, he says that the court chronicles of Aurangzeb himself also the land in dormant So, or the discriminatory tax and this whole idea because he had a such a large empire, the nobility that he incorporated from Marathas and other, other religion would naturally be large.
Uh, also. Audrey Tusk's book makes the claim that it was the largest consolidation of Indian subcontinent and Sahaneh says that's wrong. He reproduces the map of Mauryan empire centuries ago. So, uh, uh, some of the, uh, historical contest is, I'm not taking sides, but what I'm saying, I am more interested in the play of ideas and forces of [00:44:00] history rather than which community, favored whom.
But, uh, this, these historical debates will go on. Also, all I think as Dar limper and the uh, uh, scholarship now said that we were, because of a political. Uh, necessity of nation building post independence is squeamish about certain parts of history. So they were not openly discussed and, and a lot of wounds have also come from them.
Of course, the political, uh, um, uh, mileage that has been taken of those, uh, wounds is there. Politicization is there, political agenda is there, but a lot of things are in play.
Abhinandan: Which is, and this is the point you said that. Even without taking sides, if one was just a position of curiosity to approach it, because for me, I, I don't, I'm not informed enough yet to weigh in where I am, but where I stand on either of these, but what my fear is that it's shrinking, like, I cannot imagine a [00:45:00] discussion like this should be happening on, if not every channel, at least on three channels, but there, if you say like, I've seen people flip out, someone referred to, uh, you know, Shivaji, chatrapati bolne ka hai, nahi toh nikalne ka hai.
Like, dude, calm down, yaar. Like, can we just talk? No, and like what
Manisha: Sumit was saying about Sambhaji, it's true. He, in fact, Shivaji was upset with him for quite a while and he joined Aurangzeb for a brief while. But you're not going to hear that anywhere.
Abhinandan: So, on this historical thing, sorry, one specific question.
Sumit, you studied, you're from Maharashtra. Am I right? Are you? I am. Yeah, I'm from Bombay. Yeah. So, so in my, so there, uh, uh, you look pretty young, but how long ago did you study history? And in your history books, how were these? Cause there was no chapter on Shivaji in my history book. There was one on, uh, Aurangzeb and Akbar and all that, but, but like in
Anand: Bihar, in Bihar, in our textbooks.
So, uh, in government textbooks, I went to a government school. So, uh, Veer Kumar Singh is a big figure, [00:46:00] but if you walk outside of Bihar, he is a very marginal figure. So these regional icons sometimes get disproportionate space in the state
Abhinandan: textbooks. Yeah. So tell us about your experience with history in school and then about the larger as a scholar, what you heard right now.
Sumeet: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think I Studied in like early nineties in school, the history of Shivaji and that is one of the textbook which has remained unchanged for ever. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And that's one thing that, uh, tells a lot about, uh, you know, the way, uh, Shivaji is projected. And as I said, uh, you know, there are several ways in which Shivaji is viewed and that's why.
Um, you know, nobody's disputing his legacy. It's just the problem is with the interpretation that which interpretation should one go with, uh, of course, the Brahmins in then [00:47:00] Maharashtra refused to coronate, uh, his, uh, ceremony because they said he was a Shudra and then the Gaga Bhatt from North India had to be brought in specially to conduct the ceremony.
So, therefore, to say that he was the protector of cows and Brahmin does not hold true. And then you have. Jyotira Phule, who, you know, brings out, uh, attention to the grave and says he's actually, uh, the leader of the toiling masses and the peasants.
Abhinandan: And one question was, was Aurangzeb unique in imposing a discriminatory tax?
Wasn't that common for a lot of Mughal rulers at the time? It was mostly North India though. Okay. Okay. But it was, he wasn't the only one who, Jazia you're talking about, right? Or was there something else?
Sumeet: Also in much later period in, during his rule. So it's not in the very beginning, Aurangzeb also in the later period in his rule, he imposes Jizya.
But, uh, of course, historians have written that it was not, uh, implemented, uh, very rigorously. Now, one can again, [00:48:00] you know, debate about that, whether it was done or not. Uh, but I think, uh, what. I would like to just add one thing to what, you know, Manisha said about that. Of course, there is no dispute about his cruelty.
Uh, but what is at the heart of this whole debate in Maharashtra is not the part of cruelty, is about who is responsible for that. How did the Aurangzeb reach there? How was he successful in getting hold of him? Exactly. Who is, who could be called a
Abhinandan: traitor? This joker from India today who keeps using Jaichand, yeah, what's his name?
Uh, Commando. Uh,
Manisha: Commando
Abhinandan: Gaurav Saab. The Jaichands of our country should be like. So
Manisha: who is the traitor? Like what are the two popular narratives about? Jaichand has become
Abhinandan: this common noun that anyone who is a left liberal is a Jaichand for India.
Sumeet: Yeah. So I think that's, uh, has been the discourse so far.
Uh, and this communal discourse is to do away with that because then the history is far more complex. Then people have been talking, at [00:49:00] least on the Marathi channels, that look, there were Muslims on both sides, there were Hindus or the Marathas on both sides. And therefore to make this a religious angle is not correct.
And also to project the image as Dharmavir is also not correct. Maybe Swaraj Yarakshak that he was the protector of the region is a better one. And of course he got killed, uh, through brutal murder or whatever one can call it. Uh, that is not under dispute. What is under dispute is, uh, if it has to be a communal narrative, then one has to really show evidence that this was really about, uh, a Muslim ruler going after a Hindu king, but that is not being able to establish.
Abhinandan: Okay.
Sumeet: Um, and one last point here is that. Abu Azmi statement also comes at a time when the Maharashtra assembly is in session and where the current government was absolutely in a difficult situation with the resignation of, uh, this, um, Munde, [00:50:00] you know, uh, and there are one of his associates has been found in the murder of the Maratha Sarpanch, uh, in the Western Maharashtra or in the BID district.
And that has been really going on news for last. Like several weeks. And now the photos of that particular murder have been surfaced where, you know, all those who are involved in the murder of that serpent are smiling and they're taking selfies. And this has created massive furor in Maharashtra.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
And there's one of him urinating on the, uh, semi dead man. Exactly. Exactly. So
Sumeet: that would have been a major discussing point in assembly. And that completely got sidelined with Abu Azmi's statement. And with the complicity of media. Abu Azmi's statement has to be also looked against this background. Yeah.
And the entire assembly was talking only about condemning Abu Azmi and how he should be suspended from the particular session, not from the assembly. So his suspension is only [00:51:00] for this particular session. But anyway, coming back to Aurangzeb and Sambhaji, I think that's the background and yeah, that's the complex.
So
Abhinandan: they'd rather discuss what happened four centuries ago, rather than this, what happened right now, which is discussed, it was gruesome. But I had another
Manisha: BJP's unease with caste politics,
Abhinandan: they resort to communalism. And a completely complicit media saying, okay, we will do your bidding. Let's make this the issue of the week rather than what should be the issue of the week.
But Sumit, I had one more question, but I just want to also So move on to a joy cause I think a joy also. needs to go, um, in 20 minutes or so. So, Ajoy, before I come to you, I want to tell the audience once again, you see discussions like this are important and we can have them because you don't resort to ads from either my friends, as I pointed, you look at Manisha and Raman, or from those who dislike me or us, uh, or from, uh, large multinational corporations or Indian corporations.
We depend on you. There's a QR code. Support our [00:52:00] journalism, support a project where the News Minute and News Laundry will send teams across the country to look at police atrocities. This kind of public interest journalism can only happen if you pay for it. But if governments and industrialists who also run private zoos pay for it, you'll only hear Aurangzeb and what happened 55 million years ago.
And there's a governor. Of, I don't know, Uttarakhand, who's recently said that India had invented aircrafts. India was the one who had invented everything from internet. And now there is Anything, something happens from Uttarakhand, they just look at me. So I'm like, if this is what the governor is saying, that, oh yeah, Newton is credited with discovering the laws of gravity.
Our Vedas have references to gravity,
Manisha: so anyway,
Abhinandan: so, so the QR code is in flashing contribute pay to keep news free. We are part of the solution, not part of the problem. Now we welcome a joy. Those of you who have been consuming news laundry for years would remember he has actually appeared on New Hafta.
Many years ago, when Haftar [00:53:00] was still new, he's a veteran journalist. He has over 45 years of experience, although you wouldn't guess it if you looked at him. As a print and TV columnist, uh, his books include For Reasons of State, Delhi Under Emergency. His other book is Behenji, a Political Biography, third edition, and Across the Universe, The Beatles in India.
The link to all three books is in the show notes. You can click on the link and order it. But uh, Ajoy, uh, the context is now, uh, Mayawati, she's expelled her from the party, right? Not just removed from position. Um, you have said that there has been a rise and fall of Mayawati. There is a, I mean, she was a political player.
I remember in 2007 is when she became chief minister, that brute majority, right? I remember way before, uh, Modi made it, uh, you know, trendy. I had never seen anyone treat media with such disdain as she did. And I was, I [00:54:00] must say, quite happy back then. Because, uh, NewsRoundary hadn't started, so I just used it and media hadn't got as insane as it is now.
There was zero coverage of Mayawati up to the run up and that time Rajdeep was running CNN IBN, Pranay was running NDTV, and I think Times Now had also started. Like, there was, every other party was observing, Mayawati would not send her spokespersons. And she then did that famous, I think she was in a ULA with that handbag and that uh, uh, she held that press conference and she laughingly said in Coach Ido.
And then suddenly all the media was, oh my God, what a wave, what a woman vo. Uh, but she was such a political force, and I mean, she was so relevant, but in Delhi. In UP, what happened? Is it, uh, as Manisha said, you, you know, Kashi Ram created something significant, which became stronger. So he was the Akbar of the movement and the Aurangzeb onwards, just it went down.
Don't compare Mayawati to Aurangzeb. What do you think? [00:55:00] So how, like, how would you
Manisha: interpret this?
Ajoy: Well, you know, uh, uh, just a slight aside on the media and Mayawati, uh, she did, um, have a lot of problems with the media now. But it was both ways. I think media treated Mayawati in her early years with tremendous disdain.
Abhinandan: That of course, because companies like Savarna dominated, you see news on the reports. Yeah. Media is just one narrative. They don't need bias.
Ajoy: I mean, and there was open, uh, because you know, particularly the Hindi media, but even the English mainstream media, um, there was open bias because she was pretending to be Uh, you know, this Dalit woman who was trying to come up and she was a very feisty, uh, you know, person, much more feisty than today.
Um, but I think the saga of Mayawati [00:56:00] is, uh, really quite phenomenal and probably unprecedented. Um, you know, even in this, uh, tremendously, uh, you know, richly layered political scenario in India, in modern Indian politics, essentially because. Um, it did promise first Kanshiram, but Kanshiram's battering round was mild.
If Kanshiram was the strategic, uh, you know, genius who thought of using the bottom of the social heap, the Dalits. Uh, arguably the most oppressed community in the world, uh, to become a political force. I mean, Mayavati was the person who really delivered in the, in the country's by far most popular [00:57:00] state with the Dalit nation.
Uh, but it was in a particular era, we must remember that. It was in the post Mandal era where Indian politics was also undergoing a tremendous change where upper caste who had dominated most parties till then were really on the run because there was this new feeling among, uh, the lower caste and the middle caste.
Now, this was a situation where the upper caste and particularly the Brahmins, the elite of the upper caste and the thinking classes, uh, or thinking caste, I think they, uh, felt that they needed support from the Dalits [00:58:00] to somehow break this new upsurge among the lower and middle caste. So, I think what happened was that successive Brahmin leaders, you
But also in the Congress did try and boost Ganshiram's project, which was to create an alliance of the dispossessed and also a section of the Muslim minority. But there was no question that there was help from the upper caste, you know, in helping them. And I think Mayawati, uh, uh, became chief minister thrice.
With the support of the BGP and the tat kind of acceptance of her [00:59:00] by the commerce as well, to keep leaders like sdo, who was also coming up very fast down and K used this very surely may delivered. Because she was a extremely charismatic leader and, um, she, uh, became chief minister on her own, turning the tables on, uh, the Brahmin, uh, you know, and, uh, upper caste parties like both the BJP and the Comt, by striking a deal with the Brahmins herself.
So on her terms,
Abhinandan: on her terms, important on her terms.
Ajoy: Yeah. And in 2007, that's when I started writing, uh, I mean, I, when I started writing the book, uh, and I wrote the book of, uh, of biography because she [01:00:00] was really a fascinating story, a fascinating story on several levels because, uh, her own personal saga, uh, was very interesting.
This extremely ambitious young girl, uh, who wanted, uh, you know, to be a ruler. The BSP itself, the party, was a very unique party. Most parties have a history, but the BSP, there was no comparison with the Republican Party. Which Ambedkar form or even the Dalit Panthers or something, the BSP was a very unique party.
And of course, thirdly, uh, I always empathize with the Dalits because they were really at the bottom of the social league. Uh, and, uh, it really meant hell of a lot for the Dalits. And she became a chief minister on her own. [01:01:00] And that was the time when there was this huge, huge expectation, both from her and the BSP.
By that time, Kanchi Ram had become ill. And not long after he passed away. So it was Mayawati in command. So I think what we saw, Mayawati as Chief Minister, introducing quite a few new things in Uttar Pradesh. Firstly, She didn't have the sort of connections with the criminal mafia, uh, which other leaders had.
Uttar Pradesh had already, you know, was boasting of some very, very big criminal warlords. D. P. Yadav, Harishankar Tiwari, uh,
Abhinandan: Shahabuddin, Raja
Ajoy: Bhaiyya, no Shahabuddin is from Bihar, sorry, I [01:02:00] got my
Abhinandan: states mixed up, Mukhtar Ansari. Yes. Yeah.
Ajoy: Home she took on Raja Bay was the most a airing in of ma taking on front rear woman, a D woman, taking on this top wall.
I mean, that was quite amazing and I think we were all impressed by that. She was also, I think, I mean, you know, I mean, I remember her bureaucrat saying that she, they were very surprised that they found her taking all the files. Um, because she felt those files were so important that she couldn't leave them in office.
And then she used to hold meetings wearing a nightie, uh, it's shocking everybody, uh, you know, in, in a house. So, uh, she was quite different type of chief minister. And although she had the media completely at her throat, [01:03:00] um, because the media never forgave her even after she became, uh, chief minister. Uh, I think that she did in the first couple of years did impress as chief minister, unfortunately, just as it seemed that Mayawati because of becoming chief minister in UP on her own steam, but also because she was getting more and more support across the nation, not just from Dalits.
But a lot of other castes, even sections of the Muslim minority, in 2009, it all came to a head in parliament, when she was seen as the leader of a coalition supported by the left. And several other factions, including the BJP, to topple [01:04:00] the then Manmohan Singh government over the nuclear issue. And I think that was her peak, absolutely.
And then she really, seriously started dreaming. Of becoming the country's first Dalit prime minister. I
Abhinandan: mean, which again, I'll just come back to you to see if that's still possible. Do you think that political, um, obituaries are a fraught with risk? Uh, but you know, before I, before I open it out here, I just want to, you know, go across to, uh, Sumit because You know, from Maharashtra this, I've always been curious, you know, all the main, um, uh, ideologues or the symbols of the marginalized movements have been from Maharashtra and yet the most solid pushback came in Uttar Pradesh.
I'm right now discounting my motherland Tamil Nadu, which like on everything else, you know. Did everything 30 years before everybody else [01:05:00] did. Uh, with , but unfortunately the Justice Party, after it broke up, it is led by s, which is a bit strange. But I remember I wrote a piece for Indy TV in 2008 because I remember I voted Mai.
Uh, back then I, and all my friends in Delhi, we used to be shocked that how could you vote in the Lok Sabha when Obama's speech happened in Chicago? I don't know if you recall, but I guess you guys were studying and doing more productive things with your life. I just used to watch news channels five hours a day and every channel was like, where is India's Obama?
Where is India's Obama? And I wrote a piece. Dude, she came and went. You fuckers didn't even notice because she's not your definition of Obama, Harvard suit pen. She was India as Obama. But you like, but for you, she was not the Obama of your choice. So in fact, that piece is on my blog still. But, uh, what do you think, um, Sumit a how has such a solid [01:06:00] force political force waned to an extent where.
The data in Delhi from Kashira's time of 10 percent vote share going to below two, uh, has she seeded space? Has she not retained that ideological purity or ambition, you know, even sidelining new and upcoming leaders like Chandrashekhar Azad, et cetera. And why is Maharashtra not the fountainhead of this movement?
Sumeet: Yeah, I think as far as Maharashtra is concerned, you know, what we have to also understand is in terms of population of Dalits, uh, these are very contrasting cases, UP and Maharashtra. In Maharashtra, the proportion of Dalits is barely 10%. And within that 10 percent you have, uh, the Neo Buddhists who go with the Ambedkarite ideology and that's where you have the major split.
They have stayed mostly with either [01:07:00] RPI or with Prakash Ambedkar's earlier Party called Bharat Bahujan Masang, uh, all different kinds of, uh, political parties. And BSP also had some space there. Uh, and, uh, the, the Chamar community in Maharashtra has gone with Shiv Sena historically. So you don't have that kind of combination.
So that's number one. So number game is not, uh, in favor of, uh, Dalit politics in Maharashtra as well. Forget about Mayawati for that matter. Uh, and for that reason, there has been, uh, not really much force in Maharashtra, although on cultural front, uh, and other fronts, it's way ahead compared to UP. Uh, so that would be my explanation as far as, uh, you know, Mayawati's, um, or BSP's trajectory in Maharashtra is
All: concerned.
Sumeet: Uh, this is not to say that they did not have presence. They still have some presence here and there, uh, which has completely declined [01:08:00] in, in the last 10 years. Okay. Uh, but interestingly, what I note is, uh, there are these two political parties, uh, which have more or less declined from 2012 and media treats both these political parties very differently.
One is BSP, which has. Be more or less going down since 2012 and on the other hand you have the Raj Thackeray's MNS Which has also been just having negligible electoral influence pretty much But the amount of attention that Raj Thackeray and the Maharashtra Navneerman Sena gets Is by far greater, despite the fact that election after election, his performance has been absolutely it being decimated.
So therefore I think partly it's also what we understand about any political parties also what, you know, general, whether we like it or not, how the media projects or how much space media gives to any of this. [01:09:00] Uh, and of course there are also, um, different kinds of strategies which BJP adopted, which is like, which is what popularly is also seen that they adopted Kanchiram's formula that to defeat them, you know, they got together all kinds of non dominant, uh, or non numerically non dominant schedule castes, non dominant, uh, OBCs, and they pitted them against, uh, these, uh, leaders.
So it's like a, you know, movement and counter movement constantly happening. So it's not that once Mayawati arrives, there is, you know, clear ground. I mean, uh, at the same time, on the other hand, you know, BGP has been working. And I think that is something BSP did not adopt very fast to these changes, plus the aspiration of their own voters, that the voters want to be part of, uh, you know, the party in power in some way.
Not necessarily.
Abhinandan: But don't you think Mayawati's voter, [01:10:00] let me just come to the panel before we go online again. It's the most sticky, the, the loyalty Mayawati's base had. I have seldom seen that loyalty among any political party. And even that she seems to be losing. And like Ajoy said, her entire USP was fierceness, you know, she was a warrior and now she seems more of someone who is willing to.
kind of step back for whatever cause of CBIED which is the formula that BJP uses. Was that a USP that's, that's gone? Uh, or do you think it's just the juggernaut of BJP that inevitability of their taking over the vote? I mean, what I'm saying is that that tsunami has swallowed everybody or is Mayawati unique in that sense, her, you know, lack of relevance in national politics?
Anand: No, you see, in numbers, she had 30. 7 [01:11:00] percent vote in, at her genit in. 2007 and in 2012, the last assembly election in up, it was around 13%. In 2019. 19, no, sorry, 2022. 22, sorry. Two. Right. 2022, last assembly election, so down to 19 you said. Nine. 13. 13. Okay. In the last low dropped
Ajoy: below 10%. Uh, um, yes. In low 9%,
Anand: nine point, and in absolute numbers it is around ELAC woods.
Okay. So, uh mm. So ELAC Woods is also not insignificant. Mm-hmm. Means. Of course, uh, with, uh, all odds she held her ground somewhere means not to the degree that she was, uh, um, not expected to, but to one. What one she held. Uh, I think there are two, three things. The feistiness [01:12:00] came from the fact that it was a high 2007.
If you contextualize it, it was a time when. Uh, when, uh, one party government had come to UP after many years, so, uh, before that, uh, all, uh, say for more than half, more than one and a half decade in UP, there was fractured verdict and this kind of coalition governments, three, also there were. It's weird experiments like three years, you, three years, me, and these kinds of things.
Now, 2007 was a very decisive verdict in the sense that one party formed the government and, uh, her governance, because People, uh, after this, uh, kind of uh, uh, very kind indecisive governments, people like decisive leaders. So she was seen as good in administrations at the
Abhinandan: risk of [01:13:00] sounding like a Delhi columnist that who I was traveling on the highway and was so lovely.
So Got Car is amazing. Uh, I, I do recall that the approach from the effort to Central Lana after she came. was phenomenal from a very dirty looking town. It
Manisha: just became really nice.
Abhinandan: It looked like a city.
Manisha: And also law and order. A lot of people do say that it was the best under her.
Anand: So, uh, also law and order and also see, uh, in a time when there was no social media, see.
Uh, also pander to the optics, suspending people, uh, officials on their spot and these things. And there was TV channel capturing it. Uh, like, uh, one of the points of discussion is that why, uh, Yogi Aditya Nath's government is not following a Supreme Court's order on demolition. One, one theory that I have is that they want to show that we are very, very tough on law and order and the judiciary is coming in [01:14:00] the way.
I think fistiness also came she was looking and also as I was pointing out in post mandate politics one strand that I want to point out is that that in ruler swathes of Uttar Pradesh and some other states also the OBC in post mandal politics was seen as the key adversary of the schedule castes, not the upper castes, because they were very empowered by mandal politics, political empowerment and this.
And this made the SCs, uh, uh, say natural ally of the, Upper caste leaders looking for political power because in Ruler U Pradesh, upper cast were seen, seen as a lesser evil than many powerful B leaders. Right? And, and, uh, so it's more, uh, we will not go into in post Green Revolution. It has been a case in a lot of states.
[01:15:00] So, uh, this realignment. Uh, that led to Bhuja brand of politics. Then her ba Chara brand, BA chara Yara, she used to do. Now that has shrunk because one is that the Lali, the lit community is not very consolidated. It is divided between UBS and non ubs. She has Jaap support waste, but non JTA vote has slipped away from her to BJP and.
To what degree this, uh, Ari party. Now they have this, what, what is they call it? Uh
hmm. So this also the vulnerability factor. People like, uh, like, uh, say the minority vote like to back candidates who can actually defeat BJP candidate,
Abhinandan: right? So it's, and that is, I think something is common across the country, but Ajoy.
Ajoy: Yeah, I'd like to come in very quickly, uh, just sort of to cut [01:16:00] to the chase and, uh, go back, uh, to what happened after 2009 when, of course, Manon Singh won that crucial vote.
Uh, you know, sort of in 2008. Uh, and then of course when Don two. Win a second term now. I think Miami was quite disrupted in her thinking till then. She just felt, you know, Miami thinks in a straight line. So, uh, that's, I always said that the shortest point between points A and B and, uh, she got quite distracted by her prime minister dream being dashed like this.
And I think she made some fundamental mistakes in handling the social alliance. that brought her to, you know, a full majority government. And therefore, firstly, her main advisor, Satish Mishra, a Brahmin, the Dalits felt that [01:17:00] somehow the Brahmins And other upper parts have taken over the government that the DTS were not getting enough outta my Secondly, uh, as Anan was saying, very correctly, the dalis are a bit of a misnomer because although the charter board is a predominant Dali vote, in up there are the policies, there are the valve.
So these people felt that Mayawati is only a Jataki leader. So what happened in the 2012 election was that, uh, at that time with the new young Akhilesh Yadav coming off, the Brahmins slipping away from the BSP. So she lost. From then on, there has been a rapid slide. Now, Mayawati's problem has been two fold.
One, without Kanshiram, [01:18:00] she lacks the strategic sense. She lacks the larger political acumen, which Kanshiram provided. She's basically a tactical warrior. And I think she got hemmed in by the changing scenario after the rise of Kanshiram. The Mo
fuel and backed by Amed Shas, very, very, and know Amid Shah, spent a lot of time in up plotting and planning, plotting and planning because in 2012 the Bjps results were terrible.
All: Mm,
Ajoy: in, you know, in up. They really came down, you know, very bad. So I think that what happened was that Mati started sliding fast and to make it worse.
This case is against Mayawati [01:19:00] after Modi came to power, the BJP did exercise a lot of pressure and increasingly it was found and it was suspected by many of many people who were close to her because this is what I'm repeating because, you know, from sources in the BSP and Dalit activists that she was more and more inclined.
That facedness, that powerful sort of, you know, uh, figure of Benji was slowly fading and she was trying to somehow manage things. Now that really was terrible for a party like the BSP, which grew out of a movement. On the ground, the BSP failed to take up actively Dalit causes. And so there was started getting, you know, erosion of support.
[01:20:00] So to put it very bluntly, Mayawati lost whatever upper caste support she had earlier on. She lost the non Dalit vote, I mean, uh, the non Jata vote amongst Dalits quite some time ago. And then within Jata, there was a younger section who felt increasingly disillusioned by her, uh, you know, uh, you know, sort of conciliatory stance towards her.
I mean,
Abhinandan: giving up, but what kind of access did you have when you were writing this book? I mean,
Ajoy: Well, I, uh, of course kept it very secret from her, you know, I, I mean, But you used to meet her often. You used
Abhinandan: to interact with her often.
Ajoy: Yeah. Yeah. I was, well, I kept it secret. And I was advised by her closest advisors that for God's sake, don't let [01:21:00] her know you're writing a book or otherwise you'll end up writing a publicity brochure.
I knew her through Kanchiram. Kanchiram was, I was one of the first journalists to be friendly with Kanchiram. And, uh, at INS building, he used to come. with his very close friend Shenoy of Malayalam on Aroma and I used to go and chat and he was, unlike Mayawati, he was very talkative and he loves to discuss everything.
So we struck up a very good relationship and I used to go and visit him and Mayawati was living with him at that time and she used to come and peek and look at me. But when I started writing the book, So I really spoke to a lot of her advisors and everybody said, for God's sake. So I did interview her on various sorts of things, but I, I, I told her also that I was writing a longish article.
But not a book. I see. Because, you know, [01:22:00] I mean, with these, you know, to write a political biography of such mercurial people, they, they will really sit on your head.
Abhinandan: I, I, I didn't milk you. When the book
Ajoy: came out, when the book came out, um, I, it was a very sympathetic book and it gave her a huge boost because, you know, as you know, as you said, Correctly said Mahi had no profile at all.
All: Mm.
Ajoy: And my book was the first one, which gave her that huge profile. So she was quite grateful. But I got trouble immediately with the Hindi edition because. I think the trickiest sentence I've written in my 52 year old journalist life is the sentence in which I, in my book, I wrote about Mayawati's relationship with Kamsa.
Abhinandan: So,
Ajoy: I mean, it was, uh, of course a political relationship, but it [01:23:00] was also uh, a relationship which went beyond that. So, uh, I wrote it in a very, very sort of garden manner in English, but the Hindi translation, unfortunately, Which I presented to Mayawati, and Mayawati ordered this book to be sold by the millions in all libraries.
Unfortunately, her, one of her advisors had read the book and found this sentence and used it. Because, you know, because of my book. So, uh, everybody there around her was thinking that I was the rising star in my discord. So they quickly rushed in. So this is just a personal anecdote. And I mean, the publisher was called, nobody told me anything because she didn't want to approach me.
Uh, but my [01:24:00] publisher was told to return all the photographs which were taken. She gave us a lavish tea and everything in her house. That was the end. Absolutely. But anyway, I mean, I will, I still followed her, uh, avidly, uh, and I, I was, uh, hugely supportive of her, uh, but I have found that Mayavati's
And now let me, let me, uh, let me just talk, if you don't mind very quickly about her nephew, who, you know, I mean, the reason why we are talking about Mayawati, uh, you know, because of this, uh, amazing thing about her nephew and political successor being sacked twice. In less than, I mean that is amazing. I mean, could do this
Manisha: once in the middle of the campaign.
I cry
Ajoy: the fall of my, you know, of Han this itself [01:25:00] because suddenly there is this young 22-year-old, uh, London trained business management, some of her favorite younger brother Alan Pomar coming. And being introduced by Mayawati, uh, and swiftly becoming her favorite. And then, to the shock of everybody, Anand being named as her political successor, which completely went against the grain of Mayawati's earlier statements.
That I want my family just to do functional jobs. I don't want to talk about a political successor. So that was amazing. But in the middle of the 2024 election campaign, just barely six months after he was named successor. [01:26:00] Now, Akash Anand, obviously being a young man. And quite a fiery orator, uh, decided that he had to really get back the zest in the BSP and started giving this very, very emotional speeches.
And these speeches were mainly directed against the BJP, which. Um, was in power, of course, the Yogi government in, um, in UP and in Lucknow and the Modi government. And he went as far as comparing them to the Taliban as a party of terrorists, government of terrorists and bulldozer government. So suddenly Mayavati sat and then after that, he was very quickly, very, very quickly restored after the election.
So, so we thought that maybe, you know, that was a temporary thing, but obviously [01:27:00] it's Deepened speculation that the BJP was instrumental in getting. Ajoy, may I just come
Abhinandan: back to you? Sorry, uh, Sumit, I've just been told is actually joining us from Toronto. So it's 1. 30 there. So, Sumit, closing thoughts, uh, before you, we say goodnight.
You've been up long enough. I'm so sorry. I thought you were Joining us from university, but on, on, if you could just wrap up on this issue, because I have one question on the history angle before we say goodbye, uh, what do you think is the reason for her diminishing relevance in UP and national politics?
Is it just, is it purely the BJP's rise or is it that she has? Step back. She said, okay, my fighting days are over. Like many journalists, like many journalists who I respect in India, who I think have turned, have not turned because they are for sale or they are, they do, we fought when we were young. Now you want to retire.
So we have no mood to fight. Is it that?
Sumeet: Yeah. My reading of BSP is that, uh, you know, BSP [01:28:00] has relied pretty much, uh, not through media to reach out to people. Hmm. But what would be far more like, uh, you know, people to, people contact and it's a cater based party.
All: Hmm.
Sumeet: And I think that strategic part probably, uh, was not kept up with and what, you know, Aja said also that in terms of strategy after the success, you know, of elections between 2007 and 12, I think this disconnect.
Uh, with the cater and to follow up their strategy, because I think BSP's major strength was this grassroots network. It was not through media or any other kind of means that they reached out to their own voters or to the vote base, or even the various micro social alliances they made. And I think in that sense, probably Mayawati as Ajay also said that, uh, you know, Kanchiram's absence and following different kinds of strategies.
To adopt to the newer kinds of, um, you know, [01:29:00] needs of the constituents, whether this is the younger voters or whether some voters are drifting away. I think that has definitely caused a major kind of decline. And the last actually major news she made was only during the Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe sub classification.
Uh, where she opposed, uh, the Supreme Court judgment, uh, which also led to her, the party split in Karnataka, where the, you know, one of the, like a major section of political leaders just walked out of the political party, uh, that also showed that, uh, you know, even in strategy, she was not able to make a decision on this particular judgment.
Uh, which would affect her party so immediately. So I think strategically massive kind of errors after errors and that has, that's what I also said earlier. It has, this is one party which is consistently on decline where we find very little scope for, you know, [01:30:00] revival. Akash may be a possible, but I think even there it's really difficult because I think it will have to really require a major revamping of the BSP.
I don't know if Mayawati is afraid only about going to the jail or not. These are speculations. Uh, but strategically, clearly she is failing, um, as far as electoral politics is concerned.
Abhinandan: Okay. Uh, but before we say goodbye to, um, Sumit, you know, just one quick question, if you could tell me as briefly as possible, I mean, Manisha said it, you said it, even Anand said it, that There was a mix of Hindus in Aurangzeb's court and in his decision making administration and generals, et cetera.
Historically, how do you decide whether that is a reflection of inclusivity? Because, hundred years from now, people can say BJP was not a Hindu nationalist party under Modi Shah. Because they had Shahnawaz Uttayan, they had Muftar Bas Naqvi, they had Shazia Elmi and various [01:31:00] other, uh, you know, Muslim faces who were there.
We know what the status of those Muslim faces is. But is that enough to demonstrate inclusivity? Because if that is, then BJP has it too, right? But it, it is still a Hindu nationalist movement.
Sumeet: Yeah, yeah. No, that's a good question. I think the, the point here is, uh, what positions they obtain in that kingdom.
And in both sides, whether it's Marathas or Aurangzeb. Uh, you have these people at very important positions. These are not merely tokens who are used as a diversity kind of mascots, which we
Manisha: didn't have to
Sumeet: do. Yeah, exactly. Which there was no necessity, there was no political correctness pressure on them to do that.
Uh, there is no democracy for that matter. And they were kings and they were, they didn't have to do that, but they were actually having them because that was the best way to have control over the masses,
Abhinandan: right?
Sumeet: Because if you have to rule a diverse country, [01:32:00] you also need people from diverse sections. So that you can rule the, uh, the country, uh, or whatever region back then.
So I wouldn't necessarily, uh, you know, go with that still
Abhinandan: definitely. Point noted. Uh, so before we say goodbye, uh, a recommendation that could enrich the lives of our listeners, Sumit, as you can go to sleep at this ridiculous hour.
Sumeet: Yeah, it's more an academic recommendation, but I think, uh, We expect nothing less
Abhinandan: from a professor.
Sumeet: No, I wish I had a non academic recommendation, but, uh, this is on Ahmedabad city. And, uh, it's a book called, uh, in the Shadow of the Mill. Uh, it's about the spatial transformation of working class neighborhoods, uh, by Rini Barua, uh, who is a historian of labor. Uh, and it's an interesting book because, uh, it also talks, you know, so much of the EMBA writing is, uh, revolving around the riot.
And, uh, this is a take which also takes rights into account, but it, uh, tracks a longer kind of trajectory about the spatial [01:33:00] transformation of, um, the working class for almost for 80 to 90 years. So that would be my recommendation.
Abhinandan: So thank you for that. Thank you for your time and staying up so late to our audience.
You can listen to a detailed discussion that Dr. Maskar with Sudipta Mondal on his podcast, What's Your ISM? The link is in the show notes below. Have a good night. Sumit, thank you so much for your time.
Sumeet: Yes. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you.
Abhinandan: Sorry, Ajoy. Uh, you were saying, so, uh, so that combativeness of her nephew is something that did not go down well with her, which to me suggests it's not a strategic errors that have led to her decline.
It is very much a design that she doesn't want to take on the BJP because that itself is a.
Ajoy: Absolutely. So, um, now, uh, after being restored, he's been now knocked out again, uh, in, uh, you know, in less than a year, this time expelled from the party. Uh, after his [01:34:00] father in law was expelled from the party, uh, this gets, uh, you know, his father in law is, uh, interesting, uh, character called Ashok Siddhartha, uh, whose father used to work with Kanchiram.
I don't know about meeting him with Kanchiram. Uh, his father and Ashok Sardar is a veteran, you know, in the BSP, very close to Mayawati at one point, he would sit to the Rajya Sabha and everything. So one of the kind of, you know, sort of pillars of the BSP, I mean, you know, BSP doesn't have leaders who are independent or anything, but he was considered a very, very important Now, uh, apparently the immediate provocation for his expulsion and now, uh, Mayawati's nephew's, uh, you know, uh, expulsion, uh, um, and Mayawati saying she, she will not have children.
Anymore political [01:35:00] successors is because, uh, between apart and his father in law, they fell out with, uh, another BSP leader called Ramji
All: Gautam,
Ajoy: who is the prodigy of Satish Mishra, which brings us to the question of Satish Mishra. I've recently asked, uh, about, Who are the leaders of the BSP? And of course, the easy answer would have been Mayawati and nobody else.
But I do believe that Mayawati obviously is the face of the BSP and whatever she says goes. But her closest advisor is Satheesh Mishra, continues to be through her decline. [01:36:00] And I think it's largely because Satheesh Mishra handles all her cases. As a lawyer and over the years, many people have tried to come up against him, but they have all suffered.
And I think he holds enormously. That is my knowledge and understanding of the situation inside BSP. And overall, I think that is one of the things which many Dalit activists say. is the reason why Mayawati is what she is today compared to what she used to be. Well, I mean, I remember in almost pigtails, uh, you know, when she used to really go out, you know, uh, with Akbar Ahmed, you know, uh, through the fields, uh, you know, um, uh, so, so this is a very sad development, but I would like [01:37:00] to, uh, complete, uh, you know, my analysis of the situation by looking at Dalit politics.
Particularly in up, but even at a national level because UP actually created, you know, being so large, it does set a, you know, template for other states as well. And it certainly influences other states. And I think that although you have the rise of leaders, like, and mind you, aka Shannon being brought in by.
Was clearly with an eye to the rise of Chandrasekhar because Mayawati naming him as political successor must have been to tell younger Dalits, listen, it's not just me,
Abhinandan: there's this young guy. Although Chandrasekhar and Mayawati would have been such a formidable combination, phenomenal combination. [01:38:00]
Ajoy: And this is the problem with Akar Raman.
He took his job too seriously. You know, it is Maya with his personality. You see, she does not. She will not
Abhinandan: share the spotlight. She will not share. Like Modi.
Ajoy: Something which,
Abhinandan: you know, a behind
Ajoy: the scene person, hatchet man like Satish Mishra, yes, but not. Somebody who would share the, not
Abhinandan: a superstar hooker.
Ajoy: Yeah. Yeah. There's no way. So, you know, uh, Dalit politics, where does this lead Dalit politics? Because although Chandrasekhar Azad does get a boost, it is true that more and more younger Dalits, mind you, Mayawati has a solid rock solid base. Of the older generation of chapters, they have dreamt that dream and they will still believe that they, they are what they call, you know, blind faith.
You know, so if you go to a village and you talk to the older generation, they will always say [01:39:00] that I, Benji, you know, I mean, there is no question about that. So that base. Now she's come down to 9%, uh, of the UP vote, which means that she's lost about 6 percent of the vote.
Song: You
Ajoy: know, 6 percent of the Jata vote.
The Jata vote is around 15 16%, I think, about 14 15%.
Abhinandan: And considering it was such a sticky vote for her, that's, that's a huge loss.
Ajoy: Yeah, that's a huge loss. She can at best cut, split the Dalit vote by, you know, you know, in UP by maybe
Abhinandan: 5%. But she can't dominate like she used to. She can't
Ajoy: dominate.
Abhinandan: Well, thank you so much Ajoy for your time.
Uh, before we say goodbye, can you give us a recommendation that would enrich the lives of our listeners other than your books, which we have already plugged?
Ajoy: Well, I can't think of a book because I'm, I'm trying to wrap my head around. Uh, the Trump world order.
Abhinandan: Right. And,
Ajoy: you know, uh, which seems, [01:40:00] uh, a little more fascinating than the minimalist politics in India.
Mm-hmm . So, so, uh, I discovered this new Facebook, uh, blog called Fear and Loathing. Fear and Loathing on the page. And, uh, it's, it's a savage satire of what is happening, uh, in the US and the world. Uh, and I recommend it highly, really, uh, you know.
Abhinandan: Thank you so much, Ajoy, uh, for giving us so much of your time.
Have a fantastic day and we hope to host you in our studio one of these days. All right, goodbye. Right, before we go to the mails, uh, you know, because we had two experts on this, on the whole Mayawati issue, Raman, Manisha, Anand haven't I mean, I have a very simplistic take. She just doesn't have the stomach for battle anymore.
Raman: No, no. I think, uh, since 2014, if you see her decline, uh, it is because she has become [01:41:00] politically inert. There may be some political reasons that, uh, Ajay has spoken about and Sumit also spoke about, but I think, uh, I'm a ground. Reporter. So we go to the ground, we meet many people. So what I, uh, very clearly see that, and this is not speculation, as Sumit said, uh, it is actually true.
If you see her personal growth, her family's growth, uh, which had no business, uh, you know, uh, Um, uh, business background and now they, they are dealing in with crores of, uh, rupees worth business. Uh,
Abhinandan: but that's true for so many politicians. No, no. She's judged more harshly.
Raman: No, no. What I'm trying to. No, no. I'm not saying that.
By her base. What I'm saying. That is. There's so many cases now built up against that
Abhinandan: from the agencies because by the corruption
Raman: cases, see the ministry of finance, you have a intelligence unit over there, which keeps a dozier on [01:42:00] each politician, uh, by not just, uh, by the BJP. The Congress also used to keep it.
Sure. There is a dosier on ram there, there is a dosier on, uh, on everybody. Everybody. So they, the, the government uses it for political reasons. So I now here, uh, the speculation is that since 2014, she, uh, there is a decline and they, and, and it is an established fact that she's politically inert. So, uh, so the, the, the speculation is that the, uh, the, she has already been shown, you know, the jail number in, uh, the heart jail that in case if she doesn't fall in line with the BJP politics, she will be in the jail.
So I think this is why she has become politically inert. This, which is a non political reason, but that's what I feel.
Abhinandan: What do you think Manisha? And I get
Raman: it from, uh, not one source, two sources, many sources. Several sources.
Manisha: I think that really, uh, talking about media access, like when that MNS thing was brought up, I [01:43:00] think why Raj Thackeray is also in the news or gets that kind of spaces, because he puts himself out Mayawati is completely closed.
I haven't read a good long form report actually on what's happening within the BSP right now in a very long time. What is, just for a leader to say, I'll have no successor till I die is quite a spectacular thing to say. So the fact that she's saying this, I think I'd really like to know what's happening within, but it's quite sad considering that Aujay really took us through the ages on what she has meant, you know, what Kashi Ram's legacy was, what she is.
Very powerful. And her life should not have just meant. what she became. It means the political imagination for the most modernized people in India. What they could do, how they could reclaim political power and for that to just dissipate. I think history will judge you harshly because you should have thought of what happens to the BSP after me.
I think that is a central question for the BSP. What happens to BSP after me? This is true for a lot of other regional parties, Stalin,
Abhinandan: Mamata, [01:44:00]
Manisha: we know with Thackeray's.
Abhinandan: Yeah,
Manisha: so you. You can't be just what you were, you, there's an institution that you have to like, nurture and create and has to last beyond you.
And
Raman: I remember, you know, I was a, I was a cub reporter and used to cover Kanchi Ram, and when Kanchi Ram came to Delhi, it was a very, Uh, new to us. I mean, we said, what will he do? And I had gone to East Delhi listening to his, uh, you know, speech, uh, public speech. And, uh, we reported that dutifully. But I saw first time when they contested in Delhi, it was 10 percent of the votes that they had taken.
I still remember because it was It's quite astonishing.
Manisha: On Akash Anand though, I was noticing during this whole Ram temple inauguration was happening, all these BJP friendly medias were basically attacking any opposition leader that wasn't going right. Sonia was attacked. Rahul was attacked. Akash Anand very clearly came on television and said, I [01:45:00] will not go.
For my people, that is not my temple. Constitution, Parliament is my temple. And no one could attack him. And I think that's the power of, you know, a Dalit leader. And I found him quite, he may be young and he may be a little not practiced, but for him to have said that and no one could attack him. None of the usual Godi Jeevis could have said anything about, you know, to him because he comes on the back of real social discrimination.
And that's a very powerful statement. Cannot pass. Yeah. Rahul cannot do that. He can't say it and pass it.
Abhinandan: He's too much. But Akash
Manisha: Anand can. And I think it was his Lok Sabha, before he got suspended, his speeches were very powerful. You know, he was really saying that, why do you need to look at temples? You need to educate yourself.
Why aren't Dalits talking about degrees? Why aren't you talking about college education? So I think he could have mobilized the youth, at least. He
Abhinandan: still can. I mean, like I said, it may be the end of the road for Mayawati, but not necessarily
Manisha: BSP. thing in him to go beyond VSP.
Abhinandan: As, as the oldest cliché says, time [01:46:00] will tell.
Anand, last, last words are yours on this issue.
Anand: But it's a good cliché, only time tells. It is a defamed cliché. But true nevertheless. It is the only cliché that works. So, um, other clichés also work. So, um, I think, uh, in a phrase, her decline can be, uh, Um, put as a lack of political agility. So, c she has not been politically agile to a lot of things, uh, but, uh, like say the, um, stick of, say, ed or CBI, if she was really electorally powerful and with a clear line of succession.
Even if, if she's put in jail, that should not have bothered her. Yeah. A lot of leaders have shown that Lalu or a lot of, so she was not [01:47:00] ly powerful at a, at a given point of time and n. With a lot of insecurities regarding her political succession. She still has a nephew is not same as son. Okay. So let it be the Indian psyche, but nephew is not same as son.
So, uh, say in Tamil Nadu, we have one and a half chief minister from the same family. The deputy chief minister is from also the same family, but he's the son. So, Okay. And nephews bring certain kind of insecurities also, there is a fear that they will take over the party as it happened with N. T. Rama Rao in Andhra and lot of things which were not immediate.
That is one thing. I didn't agree with Ajay Bose that UP sets the template for, uh, Dalit politics in other states. That's not correct. Bihar sets it. No, no. In fact, the neighboring state Bihar has [01:48:00] a very Bihar's political diversity cannot be matched because you See the assembly tele correct. You have left in the Dali.
A lot of Dali vote goes to the left. C-P-I-C-P-I where you have left. What is in, up, up, where you have os present you in up. Where you have S, where you have Congress, there you have the hard political maturity and diversity is at different levels.
All: So ,
Anand: so no, not maybe the, maybe not maturity. That means I think Bihari is a different case.
Right? And uh, even up people, uh, we are Maha Dali of Backwardness. So if you , if, if UPI and Bihari sitting, he, he will consider himself Dali and Bihar, Maha Dali, and he will distinguish himself from so, uh, in the. Uh, popular culture or in media, Bihar UP is in the same breath, but not for us. Right. Noted.
[01:49:00] Noted. Uh. Don't mix the two. So, who sets the template? So, no, no. Means, I think regional. There is no template. Regional specificities are there. There are regional specific things. So, South Indian Dalit politics would be different. Very different. So, I don't think that it sets the template. Right.
Raman: Even for Brahmins, you can't set a template.
So I called one Chaubeyji, accidentally Dubeyji. He said, you reduced, uh, I am a, I am a, uh, I am a Charvedas. Dubey's are
Anand: two Vedas. So you have, say, like in Bihar, you have Clement or like Ram Vilas Paswan's party is a Clement on the lead vote. Left parties are Clement. As well as RJD and JDU and BJP also, uh, uh, the, uh, Ash, like, uh, not going to temple, but he misses one point that there is a section among Dalis for whom Rome temple is important.
Manisha: Very important. Yeah.
Anand: So, [01:50:00] so he's not eyeing that vote. He has also coordinated himself to a box.
Abhinandan: Right. And which, which also the DMK had done, which it like kind of. often tries to get out of that straight jacket.
Manisha: There is a section, but I feel that section will also think of other things, you know, so you can kind of speak to them that, okay, is this enough for you?
Do you want more?
Raman: But Anand Jagjeevan Ram was the huge Dalit leader in Bihar, but why, why his daughter could not claim it?
Anand: Congress
Abhinandan: Meera Kumar. Why do you think so? We've all seen her as speaker, but what party will she handle? I mean, They're different. She's not a Mayawati, man. She was the,
Raman: she was,
Anand: she was an Indian foreign service officer, Meera Kumar, and before joining politics, he resigned.
She was too gentle for politics. I just remember,
Manisha: bait jayi. She's too gentle, yeah. I
Raman: mean,
Abhinandan: it's like, it's like saying, you know, why won't, why can't a Jaishankar become a They can't. Jai Shankar is a [01:51:00] bureaucrat. He can be given a responsibility, but he can't go and, uh, you know, handle a party. But, uh, we've had a very long Hafta today, but we had such interesting guests, we thought we'd keep it.
So we'll only read two emails. Okay. The rest we will put for next week. So here's the QR code again, please scan, pay to keep news free, support our projects. Because each day that I watch legacy media, I get more and more depressed at the amount of Sarkari ads. It's just going up and up and up. There's zero self consciousness.
It's brazen now. So, yeah. So, you can mail us at podcast at newsradio. com. We will read two or three of the 69. 40, 50 word ones. Let's read the rest. We'll put forth for next week.
Anand: No, I, since I come on alternate read, which figure me so I can respond. Okay, so we go this, but because I got some, which was based on some misinterpretation.
So the cast says some of the guests
Abhinandan: in the podcast are the habit of talking [01:52:00] over other guests. Example, professor Tan was more responding and cutting off RA than the first Listen, understanding the point. We moved to Nel from Legacy News because you want to hear a conversation, not people talking over each other.
Okay, this mentions you, but it's not a question. So, fine noted.
Manisha: I'll see. Okay, Anonymous says, I've been a member of nearly eight years. And I've lived in both red and blue states in the U. S. Since the 2024 election cycle, I've followed your U. S. politics coverage. However, your takes on Trump, Doge, etc. feel naive.
Essentially a copy paste from left wing U. S. media. Hafta without Anand and Manisha. has become an echo chamber of ideas. Even your guests reinforce this bubble. I urge you to invite more diverse viewpoints and enrich discussions and reflect a broader reality.
Abhinandan: Noted. Thank you so much.
Manisha: There's a detailed feedback, which we'll read below.
Abhinandan: There's a 34 word email from AP. A song that I found very funny, maybe you can use as an outro. What is a song? We'll do that. Uh, wait for the outro. It is very funny, [01:53:00]
Manisha: curious. It's
Abhinandan: basically after that
so someone's been a song Along those lines,
Manisha: the norm k says. Pardon the long letter, but I expect better from News Laundry. I hope you read it fully. In recent Nahafta episode, Anand mentioned Muslims burning the statesman copy in Kolkata as protest. Just mentioning this without context is lazy way to criticize the protesters.
You should also examine the writer Johan Hari, a so called journalist known for plagiarism fabrications. I won't get into that. I'm sure you're aware.
Abhinandan: There's a 293 word email. So we will just tell the, the gist of it. Norman says that. He claimed that at 53, the Prophet had intercourse with a nine year old and ordered an entire Jewish and the framing is deeply problematic.
And he says, you know, based on the, whatever is the legend that, so, I mean, he's spoken about what, what [01:54:00] was written and to whitewash the crimes of fascist and imperialist regimes is what is done by many of these writers is what Norman is saying.
Anand: So, uh, actually, uh, I can't, uh, means for contextualizing. You need a lot of time and I just mentioned it and I'm I think in short I contextualized it like Cultural relativism that it was published in independent and the statesman reprinted it.
So there is a difference in independent in Britain it was consumed and without. So I, I think today, if even the independent, which has now become a digital site, not only print paper, uh, there would be protests now in 2020 5, 2 25, 2025. Britain is not the same as 2009. Uh, but. But, uh, I, if you listen to that, uh, in the beginning, I said the statesman made an error of judgment and the [01:55:00] editor was actually arrested, Ravindra Kumar, um, uh, and, um, An editor of a major English newspaper in Kolkata was arrested and, uh, and going who the writer was.
I, I said that the article was critical of prophet, what you mentioned and critical being critical of a religious figure means blasphemy. In our country for sure. Now even political figures, even
Abhinandan: historical figures now too. It's gotten to the stage where it's. It is
Anand: not a four hour program where you can contextualize the writer and everything.
Abhinandan: So we'll read one last mail of Tanya's because that's about Anand and then we can wrap up for the week.
Manisha: Okay. So Tanya says on Hafta Manisha made a point about shaping minds of individuals in universities. I agree with Anand saying that students are disassociated with the community experience of university.
I study at Delhi University. I see around myself students who do not have caste, class privileges that I do, who are not [01:56:00] exposed to alternative political, social, cultural, economic perspective. Here university plays a huge role. I present, I was present at Nivedita Menon's session that Manisha was talking about and could feel that so many more girls would have access to it if it would have taken place inside the campus.
If our professors want us to think that caste does not exist in urban spaces, it is the reading circles, protests, demonstrations, art and graffiti that tells us that it exists. Both But with universities attacking even the smallest of progressive actions, they're shaping minds of at least some students, and they have to be held accountable.
Anand: Uh, I think, oh, so I, I, I think she agreed with me, so, uh, I should be happy, but actually she misinterpreted me in a way. By community life, I meant that the possibilities of interaction in a university with teachers and other students is very less because students have opted out of it because they have other [01:57:00] career preoccupations, preparing for other things and the interactive pattern is very different what People think it is because people appear occupied, not for any political or other regions.
That is a different, that all that is happening. And like say what you say was my teacher in Dell University, we before moved to JNU. So uh uh. Like in LSR only, there were cancelled, like this talk you are saying and other, if you go to back years back, who is now a spokesman of BJP, Guru Parshwan, he's a, he, he, he's a professor in Patna University.
Yes. So his talk was cancelled. Uh, the SCST sale, he did a piece on it. Also, s CST sale of the college had invited him on Berka Genti. He was to speak on, uh, post cons, no ambit [01:58:00] beyond constitution, like his role as an economist. And so it was canceled. So that is happening. What you say is also happening.
That is the dominant thing happening because the party is in power, right? But other voices are also other, like who got group hash once. Talk canceled. There was, there is an influential group also working there. Sure. So, but I think there's, this
Manisha: is very wrong, I think, and I think this
Abhinandan: general of canceling talks.
Manisha: Yeah. It's pathetic in college. Especially something that has
Abhinandan: become a trend, not as the world over that this person should not speak at a college. And every group is influential now. Mm-hmm .
All: You
Abhinandan: don't have to have size, you just have to have the loudest and most historical voices. Mm-hmm . And that is, I think, and on that, I think that's true for several political sides.
It is just. No one else to discuss anything. Just don't hurt my feelings. I will get traumatized. I will get triggered. I will get this. I will get that. To baati mat karo. To karo. Sir, also,
Anand: this is not what aboutry, but you should not have recency bias that what [01:59:00] happened in recent, you should have a historical canvas to base your views on.
Is par
Abhinandan: main disagree karta hoon. You should have recency bias. Otherwise, you'll keep going back to Aurangzeb. I think the last, basically, whatever is the most immediate threat. is the most for me. The highest priority was Congress horrible. Yes, but we're like get out of Manmohan Singh's house today. No, I won't I will get out of someone else's
Anand: but understanding of an issue and a topic needs a historical bias just for sake of it.
No, no, I get it. Sorry,
Abhinandan: historical canvas, not bias. You know, you have to consume it, read about it, but what action points for me are the immediate ones. That's as far as
Anand: that is news. That is, I think that is reacting to news.
Abhinandan: Okay. So let's get the recommendations of the week. Uh, Manisha, what do you have for our listeners?
Manisha: I really liked watching a complete unknown. Please catch it in the nearest cinema near you. What is that? It's a biography [02:00:00] of Bob Dylan. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You tell me about
Abhinandan: it.
Manisha: Very nice. It's in the theaters. It's really fun. If you're a fan, you must watch it. A very disturbing piece in the New Yorker. It's an essay on the chatroom behind the Pellicott rape trial.
Abhinandan: Anand?
Anand: I have many recommendations. Okay, let's narrow it down to
Abhinandan: two. Two for today.
Anand: First is that people will come back with comments So let me say that Grish Shahane's essay in the scroll, so that is the reference point for everything he will answer. So, so yes, so what, what was cited was from his other heavy books I can cite, but for the.
Um, my comments were limited to that only today. Second, is, uh, any, uh, a book, uh, and though I have reviewed it and, uh, there is [02:01:00] also an interview coming. Anta. Madi. So she has written this book and it's an ignored but important book for media, also for print culture and from different, uh, sociological points of view every day reading, uh, the Hindi Middle Boy.
And the North Indian middle class. So after independence, the Hindia space, uh, say Delhi press magazines, like Sarita, which actually financed caravans just like Saraswati finances caravan now. And also the. Dharmyug, which came from the Times of India group. So, she has tried to take social notes of the Hindi reading mind and what were the topics.
Individual was reinserted, not the, say, nation's ideals and this, the political ideals. How Individual became important. Her tests, consumer, consumer goods, like particularly with focus on women. So, uh, I have [02:02:00] also reviewed this way. I have some critical points, but generally the book is very good and well researched.
So
Raman: I will also recommend two. Uh, one is, uh, I'm going to plug in our story, news laundry story. Uh, uh, in fact, media really played up, uh, CAG report on Aam Aadmi Party, uh, that, uh, their mahalas, they had taken medicines from four blacklisted companies. It was really played up in a big way. Uh, but we have done a story and we have found that even Pradhan Mantri, uh, you know, uh, sponsored, uh, medical, uh, have also taken, not only from these four, uh, companies also from their subsidiaries.
Abhinandan: So, but that was not highlighted in any of the discussions.
Raman: So, we did a paywall story, yesterday it was published. And secondly, I'll recommend the movie Anora, which has won five [02:03:00] Oscars. It's on Amazon, right? It's on Amazon, Amazon. And this is, um People may, I don't know, but I like the fact that it captured, uh, you know, uh, the humiliation of a person who is considered, uh, perhaps the lowest denominator of the society.
Uh, I mean, she's a prostitute,
All: uh,
Raman: uh, so, so it's a, it's beautifully captured. So I, it comes out very well and it's a comedy, uh, tragedy. It's a beautiful story. I liked it.
Abhinandan: So, I have, uh, two recommendations. One is, Mrinal Pandey wrote a piece on Hindi. and the whole Hindi English debate. Uh, it was an interesting read.
I, I mean, I have a kind of position on this whole thing, but it was like in defense of Hindi, uh, cause she is a, you know, progressive figure. She's not identified as Godi media or as an RSS backer, but [02:04:00] I just thought it was a nuanced piece. And this is a discussion on which there's not much nuance happening.
And the second is, uh, A series of podcasts, which I think the intelligence has done. It's a podcast by the economist. It's done, uh, Pompast, which is about Trump, Bacoff, which is us, positive Ukraine to, uh, Ukraine and, um, Europe after Trump, basically their last five podcasts on Trump, I think are really interesting because it really makes you realize how unhinged Trump is if.
Even The Economist can't defend him because The Economist is one of those that was seen back in the day when I was young as the pro free market, not that Trump is free market, but, uh, yeah, I just think their commentators are really smart and well read, so I just find it very valuable. On that note, I'd like to thank our sound recordist Anil Kumar, our producer Priyali Dhingra, and our other producer Ashish, who doesn't seem to be around right now, but was hovering around [02:05:00] somewhere.
And I'd like to thank all of you who have Contributed and paid to keep news free. Here is the QR code. Again, this is a regular subscription QR code. If you haven't subscribed, do subscribe because you can save journalism, not ez, not politicians, not political parties. On that note, have a great day and as a subscriber suggested this Jugar song will be a half the song for the day.
Bye-bye.[02:06:00]
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