This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, Jayashree Arunachalam, and Shardool Katyayan are joined by Nitin Pai, director of Takshashila Institution, and The News Minute’s Shabbir Ahmed.
The panel first discusses the inception and functioning of the Department of Government Efficiency – a new department set up by the United States government and headed by tech billionaire Elon Musk.
Nitin says the reason behind something like DOGE “is not just efficiency”. “The ideological reason is to create a government full of people who will act according to the rules of Donald Trump,” he says, adding that federal government employees were laid off en masse to create fear and uncertainty in the minds of rank and file civil servants.
On the importance of “small governments”, Shardool says that any system meant to be working fairly working for citizens will be complex. “Mandates given to governments are not for them to run in a fiscally efficient manner, but to run fairly and independently,” he adds.
Jayashree then delves into the ongoing “language wars” between the Tamil Nadu government and the union government over the National Education Policy’s three-language formula. “The implication that Hindi means the extermination of a local language is true,” she says.
Shabbir adds that the union government demands the NEP to be accepted in its entirety: “The problem the TN government has is that NEP is a uniform policy on education, but education is in the concurrent list. States were not consulted before forming it.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
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Song: Yela Yelo
Timecodes
00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements
00:04:01 – Headlines
00:11:23 – DOGE
00:54:49 – Language row: Tamil Nadu vs Centre
01:28:20 – Letters
01:48:40 – Recommendations
References
In Madhya Pradesh, ‘love jihad’ crusaders overrule high court orders to target interfaith couples
NL Sena - The impunity of India’s police
Ruchir Sharma - What Went Wrong With Capitalism
The controversy over Tyson Foods' hiring of asylum seekers
Shabbir Ahmed - Pakka Politics
Mathivanan v Inspector of police
Podcast recommended by subscriber Arthi
Recommendations
Nitin
Integration Of The Indian States - VP Menon
The Indian Constitution - Granville Austin
Shabbir
A Social Coalition of the Marginalised Could Have Kept the BJP Out of Delhi
Let Me Explain | History of ‘Hindi Imposition’ in TN
Shardool
The Economic Growth Engine - Robert Ayres
Jayashree
The Chat Room Behind the Pelicot Rape Trial
Raman
Meet Kani Kusruti at her Goa home
Narendra Modi writes: A Mahakumbh for New India
Abhinandan
The rise and fall of Long Term Capital Management
Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Ashish Anand.
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Abhinandan: This is a Newslaundry Podcast. And you're listening to NL Hafta. Angreze apna lagaan aur Newslaundry apna Hafta kabhi nahi chhorte. Welcome to another episode of Hafta. Thank you so much for your support. Uh, you supported our Delhi election coverage. You have supported our earlier NL Sena project, uh, the Hindu Rashtra project is almost topped up.
And in fact, you already have reporters who have started working on that one.
Raman: Uh, there's one story out yesterday. There are three in the pipeline. Three video stories are ready. Almost.
Abhinandan: So you see, that is how our journalism is funded. You guys support an NLCNR project and we execute it without fear of favor because we do not take money from any corporations through advertising or Sarkari ads.
So we have a new NLCNR project up, which will be done jointly with the [00:01:00] News Minute. and news laundry. This is the QR code. Let me tell you about the project and you can contribute if you think it is worthy of your money and worthy of journalism because democracy dies without journalism. This project we're calling the impunity of India's police.
A few facts. A prisoner is killed in an encounter. Another is tortured in custody. A case falls apart due to lax investigation. There's corruption, tampering evidence, casterism, threats, profiling, illegal surveillance, harassment. All recorded and reported on. An almost endless parade of abuse by the police which is there to protect and serve us apparently.
When this defines policing in India, is it any wonder that there is so little faith in the police? From Tamil Uttar Pradesh, police excesses take many forms. What unites them is the impunity under which these excesses occur. And I must underline, this is across states. So we're going to be covering states that [00:02:00] are governed, we don't use the word ruled, by the BJP, the DMK, the Congress.
We're going to spread it out just to show you how policing in India works. So the News Laundry and the News Minutes, amazing investigation teams. We'll investigate these excesses and report, and we will see which are the highest instances of police brutality. Basant Maria Teresa Raju, Anisha Seth, Jhanvi, Haritha Manav, Cora Abraham, Nidarshana Raju, and Jisha Surya will fan across the country to meticulously document this culture.
and how it impacts everyday Indians. This is the QR code. The link is in the show notes below. Do contribute to the Sena project because the police is the most obvious interface that general public like us has with the state. How well does this work and is it serving you or is it just there to bully the shit out of us?
[00:03:00] Contribute, keep journalism free, pay to keep news free. Thank you so much.
Raman: And incidentally, these states, uh, also report maximum police excesses. So.
Abhinandan: So yeah, we are, yeah, so we're following the states that report maximum excesses. Now, as you can see, we don't have Manisha and Anand today. Manisha is going to be having a session in Bangalore.
So those of you who are there. Uh, she will be putting this out on social media. She's speaking at a college. I don't know if the college allows everybody, but the college students can benefit of Manisha's experience. In the studio today, Shardul. Hello. Welcome. Good to have you back, Shardul.
Shardool: But now I'm regular, I think.
Abhinandan: Now you're regular. Yes. Raman Kirpal. Thank you. And joining us from her home city, Chennai, is Jayshree.
Jayashree: Hello.
Abhinandan: So Jayshree, uh, let's get the headlines. And we have two very special guests. One is Nitin Pai, who is the co founder and director of Takshal Institution. We're going to be talking about DOJ and [00:04:00] government spending.
And also joining us later will be Shabbir Ahmed, who is senior news editor at News Minute, where we're going to be talking about this language battle that is happening from Jayshree state and the center.
Jayashree: Yes, so here are the top headlines for the week. As you said, the Centre and Tamil Nadu are engaged in a standoff over language over alleged Hindi imposition in the southern state through the three language formula of the NEP.
The Education Minister had said Tamil Nadu will not get over two thousand crores in grant if the three language policy is not implemented, so the Chief Minister has now said the state is ready for a language war. It's been a heated first week of the Dehi assembly session. A CAG report that was tabled in the assembly revealed the government suffered a loss of over 2000 crow due to the now scrapped liquor policy.
Also, 21 of the AAPS 22 MLAs were suspended for allegedly disrupting the L Governor's address.
-: Hmm,
Jayashree: in news that I found quite shocking, around 1 billion Indians [00:05:00] or two thirds of the country do not have the income to spend on discretionary goods. This is according to a report by a venture capital firm called Indu Valley.
So basically India's consuming class comprises just 140 million people, that's 10 percent of the population. And in
Abhinandan: fact, this is something that, I mean, now, of course, this investment fund has put it out in through a report, but I mean, I've spoken to several senior executives at e commerce companies. So they say, of course, when, you know, you are going to raise funds from overseas, they say, Oh, India is such a huge market, huge market, 1.
4 billion, but actually the e commerce people who can actually. Afford to have the capacity to know how to, and for e commerce to buy stuff on a snap deal or a mantra, whatever it is. Is between 50 to 70 million. It's not in hundred million. Ah, yeah. So that is actually the size of the market. It's not 1.4 billion.
Right. But, and it is
Jayashree: that same si that same size of people that is getting richer every year. That is your only consuming class. The poorer people are getting much poor that maybe
Raman: wonder [00:06:00] why many multinational companies do not come to us. Mm-hmm . Yeah.
Shardool: Because it's, it's, ah, this is the, it's a limited footprint and like the actual size of the population does not represent the spending thresholds.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Jayashree: A Delhi court on Tuesday sentenced former Congress MP Sajjan Kumar to life imprisonment. This is for murdering two men during the 1984 riots.
Abhinandan: About time.
Jayashree: In Pune, a 26 year old woman was allegedly raped inside a public transport bus. The case sparked protests by the opposition, which accused the state government of failing to maintain law and order.
Raman: We are doing a big picture story on Pune, Pune being, um, the city, which is, uh, you know, non all over, uh, not just the country, the world. And many retired people, they come over there just to, uh, buy the houses and they stay likely to, they like to stay over there because of the weather or whatever. So we are doing, uh, we are just auditing the.
[00:07:00] criminal graph of Pune. I see. You know how it is. So this will also be one of the case studies and Pratik is working on it. Great.
Jayashree: Today is day seven of an ongoing rescue operation in Telangana where eight workers have been trapped in a tunnel in Nagarkurnool district. This is after a roof collapsed on February 22nd.
And I just find this really sad because you find There are news reports like this all the time and eventually news reports after the first three days event, they start talking about bodies. It's just become a body retrieval exercise because they have had no contact with these eight workers. Also, I think there were reports saying that, um, the workers would, their families, most of whom are in Punjab and Jharkhand and so on, they weren't even informed by the company that the thing had happened.
They saw it on television when reporters started calling them for news bites and it's just extraordinarily callous. It's so sad. So, right. Uh, in Manipur. Representatives of the armed Maite group, Arambai Tengol, met [00:08:00] the governor and put forward conditions to surrender looted weapons. The group itself surrendered over 240 weapons.
And 109 more were surrendered at different places in the state. The union government has appointed former RBI Governor Shaktikanta Das as Principal Secretary No. 2 to Prime Minister Narendra Modi. Days after India defeated Pakistan in the Champions Trophy match, the Maharashtra police arrested the parents of a minor boy who allegedly shouted anti India slogans.
Authorities then demolished his father's tin shed scrap shop. They then razed his uncle's shop. They did not serve no notices before either.
Abhinandan: I don't know how the Supreme Court's order is just being ignored by states.
Raman: And there's so many precedents that this is not allowed. I mean, even in earlier cases, people were also set free.
I mean, there is acquittal. There are acquittals, but still. They're doing it is complete wastage of the time.
Shardool: Who cares what who is shouting at the match time? Like let them be here. [00:09:00]
Jayashree: But also the basis on which they picked up this, this child is awful, right? They said some VHP man is walking down the road in the house.
And on the basis of that, you register an FIR, you take away the boy and then you raise the shop. Like that makes no sense.
Shardool: You're not even free. Ultimately, what's the point that you cannot speak freely inside your own house because somebody might hear outside. It's really, it's actually very, and there's no,
Abhinandan: I mean, they'll make a big deal of someone's tweeted something, but this kind of stuff, which is a direct attack on personal liberties and a democracy is just ignored in our country.
Absolutely. Shocking.
Jayashree: The EU and the UK have added more entities based in India to an updated sanctions list. This targets those who continue to aid Russia's war on Ukraine. Also in a major diplomatic shift, the US has voted alongside Russia in seeking to block a UN General Assembly resolution by Ukraine that called stop hostilities.
Not just alongside
Abhinandan: Russia, alongside Russia and North Korea. Yes, correct. Talk about the axis of evil. Realigning and [00:10:00] we abstain. We abstain.
Jayashree: Conservative leader Frederick Meurs is set to become the new Chancellor of Germany. Preliminary results show the alliance he leads has won 28 percent of votes.
Abhinandan: And although the far right AFD won almost 20%, uh, he refused to take their support to form the government.
So,
Jayashree: yeah. News from the U. S. The first cabinet meeting of the Trump administration was held this week. Elon Musk is the center of discussion as Trump backed him and his team at Doge to slash government spending. Doge is claiming it saved over 60 billion dollars in American taxpayer money. But we can discuss this.
Also, Trump announced a plan for a gold card visa that will be priced at 5 million for foreign investors seeking permanent residency and ultimately American citizenship. And the Washington Post will no longer run views opposed to personal liberties and free markets on its opinion pages. Jess Bezos announced this this week.
The editorial page editor, David Shipley, then [00:11:00] resigned. And those are the headlines. That's what
Abhinandan: happens when billionaires control media. So News Laundry does not take ads from billionaires. Off from Sarkar's at a time when all news platforms, newspapers and digital are flooded with ads from the UP Sarkar.
You saw we didn't have any. So do flash this QR code, use this QR code, pay to keep news free. We're an ad free platform where the public pays, the public is served. And on cue, we have a. Yes. Hi, Nitin. Thank you for joining us. Appreciate it.
Nitin: Hi Abhinandan. Good to be on your show after such a long time.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
It's been a while. So we've already done a brief intro of you, but I will do the opcharic intro. Nitin Pai is co founder and director of the Takshala Institution, an independent think tank and school of public policy based in Bangalore. Many of you, I'm sure I've already heard of it. He's a regular columnist for the Mint.
He previously spent more than a decade at the Singapore government as a policymaker in the technology sector. [00:12:00] Have I got it all right, Nitin? Abhinandan. And have I left anything out?
Nitin: No, no, you've already, uh, you already climbed me on the chanay
Abhinandan: kichad. Okay. So welcome. That's Jayshree are with us. Hi. So I'll just quickly shoot off a couple of questions and you can answer them at leisure in whatever order you like.
Uh, you know, we had discussed DOJ and government spending and it's so happened that I just finished a couple of weeks ago reading. Ruchir Sharma's Where Capitalism Went Wrong. I think that's what it's called. Uh, I don't know whether you've read it in that he's looked at government spending, uh, by successive governments in the U.
S. and he's also quoted some numbers from Europe. And of course, this myth of Reagan had said less government, even he had added to government spend. Everyone other than Clinton added, even Trump added in his last stint, although everyone claimed that they are going to reduce government. So clearly it was bloated and I mean, you can tell me if, I mean, of course, Ruchir also has, I'm sure, got his data from somewhere.
[00:13:00] He has claimed in his book that this myth of Europe being the socialist oasis where the government spend is more as a percentage of GDP, it's actually US that's more. So if anyone should be accused of it, it should be US. So that is one aspect and I'm quoting these numbers from the Economist article and NPR.
U. S. spends 7 trillion a year, approximately. And, uh, Mr. Musk has claimed that he will save a trillion or two trillion. Apparently, 70 percent of that money is either Social Security or defense spending or pensions. So that cannot be touched. That leaves about 25 odd percent out of that, they've done a whole bunch of others.
So effectively he's playing with just five to seven percent. So statistically, is it possible to cut one trillion? I don't know, but the world over one thing is true that government spending needs to be cut because it seems to be bloated. How it's done is aesthetics, I think are important as well. Uh, in the Indian context, is there anything you would like to add?
And generally, how do you think this will realign world economies? Do you [00:14:00] think? Like today, in fact, while we're recording this market has crashed yet again. There is the markets are not finding any bottom. I mean, I don't know what the reason is. I don't know whether Nitin also tracks the markets, but we'd like your informed view.
And it is an informed view on how this realignment in the U S that contagion of let's audit government spends and get them down, how it will impact things around the world?
Nitin: Yeah. Hey, that's tall order. See, I think first of all, let's just separate the Indian case from the US and Europe, right? They are very, very, very, very different cases, right?
And you can get into a huge amount of confusion when You sort of import American ideas at Indian levels of income and Indian levels of governance, right? It's just like, you can't afford Nordic fashions at Indian levels of income, right? So there, there are, there are very, very different, uh, very, very different things.
I'll come to the difference later, but see, first of all, it's sort of ironic for me to be answering this because I believe in small government, right? I [00:15:00] believe that, uh, the role of government should be minimal. Such that it enforces contracts, defends the country, ensures there's rule of law, and provides a level playing field for markets, right?
That's basically what you would want government to do. Anything what government does over and above that is sort of, you know, like, uh, now I'm cutting it to India, you know, you have cops going into bars and seeing how many musicians are playing and are they using one plastic bag or two, you know, these are not kind of things which governments ought to be doing.
But here's the challenge, uh, with all those comparisons, I've read Ruchir's book. Here's the challenge with all those comparisons. Society as a whole has grown a whole lot more complex in the last 70 years, right? Since the time when US, for example, had small government, no income tax. Uh, you know, before world war two, and then in the last 70 to 80 years, the world has become extremely complex.
Right? Uh, imagine you have a instrument today called a cryptocurrency. Now you didn't have [00:16:00] cryptocurrency, um, you know, 70 40 years ago. Now cryptocurrency is not something which you want to leave wild into any, any economy, including a developed one, like the United States. Now you want to be able to regulate, uh, cryptocurrency.
Now the guy who was, uh, you know, regulating cash with the 500 rupee notes, 500 notes is not equipped to do cryptocurrency kind of work. Now you need new people, right? Cash has not gone away. So you need the cash guy as well, right? So there is a, there is an addition of government work. Which happens. I've been a public servant in the Singapore government before.
Abhinandan: So there's an inevitability to associate with, with technology. There will be more people used, uh, needed for new things. So that will happen.
Nitin: Yeah, and with technology, with globalization, you know, for example, governing a country with just one type of people, one color, one religion, one language. It's very different from governing a country where there are five different types of people, five different languages and so on.
So diversity, complexity, all of that means that the size of government will increase. So that kind of [00:17:00] comparing it and saying, Oh, we have a big government, uh, by itself, I don't think makes a lot of sense to see whether the government is achieving basic governance goals. Is your traffic on the road? Do you have traffic jams?
You have air traffic problems? Do you know is your is your markets are your markets fairly governed and so on? So effectiveness is your first Cut, right? You don't appoint a state because the state is a low cost state, you know, you can go on a low cost headline, but you don't go for a low cost, the first cut of, you know, it's like saying, you know, this policeman, you know, he just takes 500 rupees a month, let's take him, right?
The point is that the policeman do his job. Now, if you need a, if you need to pay the guy 50, 000 rupees to prevent crime from happening, you have to pay 50, 000 rupees to the guy, right? So it's not about cutting costs and having low cost Now, what's gone wrong with, uh, the Doge thing is we've left all realms of reason, right?
It is just a bunch of, you know, I've been, I've [00:18:00] been an arrogant technology, uh, guy before. So I can, I can sort of tell you this, you know, an ignorant. Arrogant technology guy would go in and say, look, here's the system. Looks like there are a lot of people here. Let me start sacking people. Right. Uh, or, you know, there's a lot of money being spent and let me start, stop cutting, uh, you know, stop paying people, right.
Or cutting the budgets or whatever. Now, what happens is most of these guys don't know what the hell they're doing, right? They're, they're, they're punch drunk, arrogant on wealth, on some kind of technological power, the arrogance of knowledge of having achieved extraordinary things in the tech industry.
And then you're trying to say that, look, I, because I'm an extraordinary tech industry executive, I know everything about government. That is simply not true, right? Because it's not that people in government are in government because. You know, they're just, they're dumb people, right? Even, even the dumbest government is run by pretty smart people.
Because it requires some amount of specialization to run government. And to [00:19:00] understand that. So what these doge guys seem to have done is they just don't understand this, right? And they're saying, my non understanding is a virtue. Right. So now let me go and just, I'm an
Abhinandan: outsider. I'm an outsider. That's a good thing.
It's
Nitin: like you walk into a hospital and say, Hey, you know, there are a lot of people in this hospital. So let me just cut off the power supply, right? Or let me just like, uh, sack all the doctors, like all the people in, and then we'll hire all the. You know, because I can't tell which doctor is important or not, let me sack all the doctors and then I'll figure out which are the doctors I need to rehire, right?
In fact,
Abhinandan: just a similar thing, uh, Dr. Qureshi had said, the former chief election commissioner, he says of all the arguments and he says one can have a conversation where there should be one nation, one election. I'm sure there could be pros and cons, but the one reason I'm rejecting right now is low cost.
Your democracy should be robust. It should not be Sastantikav democracy. If that is the reason being given, I'm sorry, that reason I reject.
Nitin: Yeah, exactly. So it has to be [00:20:00] effective first. Efficiency comes later, right? So what I've, what I'm really perturbed by these guys and I'm very troubled by them is that it's giving a bad name to all reasonable attempts to bring governments Uh, into, uh, under control.
Right. Now, uh, one reason you could see, you could ask the question, why is it that doge happened? Right. The doge probably happened because the system was so complex and unreformable that the only way you could even do some kind of a reform on it. Is that you had to get these mad people to do crazy things, right?
So it's almost like a revolution kind of thing. You know, we just don't know, we can't do anything. No one allows us to make any change. So here's what we do. We're going to take a change. So rather than
Abhinandan: a revolution of the proletariat, it's a revolution of
Nitin: the billionaires, basically. Oh, a revolution of the guy with the chainsaw, you know, billionaire or not, right?
Now, it is true, right? Many governments have made it very hard to reform. Uh, there is hardly any government which says that next year, you know, any government department says next year, I need a smaller budget. [00:21:00] Okay. I used to be part of a government and I've actually done that. I said, look, I need a smaller budget next year.
And people looked at me and said, are you crazy? Your seniority, your, uh, your talent, your prospects are measured by how big a budget you control. Right? So nobody wants to cut budgets. Nobody wants to cut manpower and team size, et cetera. So, uh, it is true that governments have these problems, but the answer is not some kind of a, you know, completely moronic way to go about it.
Right. And I think, uh, you know, People conflate truth and intelligence with power, you know, just because this guy is very powerful and rich. You believe that this guy has some inscrutable wisdom, you know, he's doing some, there's this amazing Elon Musk logic going on here in terms of reform of government.
It's really the story of the emperor who's naked, right? I mean, the guy is naked. He doesn't know what he's doing, right? And he's doing it out of arrogance. And you will find out the, you know, downsides of it soon enough, you know, there's a XKCD meme. I don't know whether you guys have seen it. You know, there's a [00:22:00] lot of things piled up on each other.
And then the small little, all modern digital infrastructure, it's all, all stacked up and there's a small little part on which everything hinges. Right. And this is one guy sitting in Nebraska somewhere who's been maintaining it quietly. Now, if you go and knock that guy off, the whole thing comes crumbling down.
Many government systems are like that, right? And many government systems are like that for good reason, because they work 24 by seven upgrading them is hard. So instead of doing lock, stock and barrel, you sort of keep layering, you know, things on top. And then finally you have a very complex system, right?
Is the, is the, is the, if the question is, should we reform and simplify these systems? Definitely, yes.
Abhinandan: But is there a way of going about it? Yeah,
Nitin: this
Abhinandan: is, this
Nitin: is, this is not the way to go about it.
Abhinandan: Also, stepping on each other's toes, for example, Elon Musk had to walk back. Of course, the, the cabinet meeting was kind of embarrassing where Trump said, does anyone have a problem with Elon being here?
If you do, we'll get rid of you. You know, it's just humiliating for your cabinet to say that. And like when he sent [00:23:00] out that email, you know, certain, I think Ash Patel's department, FBI said it's optional. You don't have to respond to it. Like, you know, it's stepping. So there's a lot of walking back. putting out wrong data.
I think the New York Times has a piece of, they had said they've already saved a hundred billion. It's close to 18 billion, et cetera. So, I mean, of all those issues that I want to come back to you on, I was a little taken aback by the numbers that, uh, Ruchir quoted, but I'll just come back to you on that.
But on this smaller government, I know here we have a wide spectrum of, of, uh, political ideologies. Much of the social media and say some are communist, some say I'm a capitalist. Uh, so my, my position is depending on what you're talking about. Uh, Shardul is a free market believer. I don't know what I am.
More than others, but yeah. So, you know, just on this small government, I, I think it's very difficult to defend the kind of amount of departments and everyone keeps adding to it. Just want to go around the panel to see what do you, what's your take on it? [00:24:00]
Shardool: I have a detailed take on it. And while Nathan was speaking, I was noting down what I'm supposed to say.
So this thing popped into my head. No system, which, which is meant to be fairly working for citizens can, can't not be complex. Because people inherently are and the government agencies and departments, their mandate is not meant to run fiscally efficient manner. Their mandate is to run fairly and be accountable and be transparent.
Like when people talk about us, like we are discussing Doge here, right? The way that system is designed. The how states run states have an equal mandate compared to the federal level. Some are like in India, like some are in state lists. Some are in concurrent lists. Some are in state lists. Now, a guy like, like Nitin said, a random person sitting in Nebraska has the equal right, or let's say Wyoming way, way more remote, right?
That you, you'll hardly find [00:25:00] people for miles. They have equal right. to those services which are provided by the government.
Abhinandan: So it may not be profitable to provide
Shardool: it there as it is in India. Yes, government's mandate is not to be profitable or be fiscally efficient all the time. I'll come to that also.
Their mandate is to provide what they promise to provide transparently, efficiently, and that system is comparatively run better than India. This is why it has, you know, swelled to this size. The other reason is the way they conduct and enact their policies. USA is fiercely independent on individual level, which means the constitution, the values they run on give you give the personal state primary that they have to cater to this, even if it seems physically ludicrous.
One other point is. If U. S. government has to, you know, cut their fiscal data, they can easily cut on defense, but that's not how they conduct their policies, you know, they can easily stop, [00:26:00] for instance, giving weapons to Saudi Arabia, but they have to make a sale. Now, right now, Donald Trump, one thing I want to mention.
I am so ashamed to say, and this is an embarrassing for autistic people.
Abhinandan: Elon
Shardool: Musk is painting us all in a bad light. Now look at what he said while he was standing like, I think a couple of weeks ago in Oval Office that yes, I may make 1620 statements. Some of them will be incorrect. That's not how governments are supposed to run.
Every word has to be checked and checked and rechecked and then put out the yes. And you may say this is. for a capitalist, for a company, that's not the most efficient way to run, but government is not a company. Now, I'll give you an example in India. Also, we have a very bad Prathamik Chikisala, you know, basic medical centers in villages.
You are supposed to have them. Even if you get one random patient in a week or so, this is how it's supposed to be. And those [00:27:00] hormonal teenagers are yes, of course, like according to. According to Elon Musk, hormonal teenagers are the best judge of government efficiency. I mean, like, there are 19 year olds, early 20 year old boys, and they have already put out bad data.
And the last thing you need is people who do not have experiences in dealing with these complex matters. Dwelling into personal data and there was one race minor things to keep coming up that there was this guy which was fired and then rehired because he had put out a tweet or a post that racism against Indians should be, you know, normalized.
He was fired, then rehired. And the funny thing is JD Vance is married to an Indian. He has Indian children. So this government, like you said, is like,
Abhinandan: right,
Shardool: Raman
Abhinandan: sir,
Shardool: what's your take?
Raman: I think, uh, any government, whether it is socialist or the capitalist, if they want to bring in some changes, uh, they should, I think the changes.
[00:28:00] will be better and will reap more benefits if you bring them first at the policy level, not, uh, you know, with the knee jerk responses like, uh, you know, what has happened, you know, with this government, it seems like one, even a businessman, if he wants to, uh, gain more, I think first should have his policies.
He should set his policies, right. And then he should. Uh, you know, take the decision, but here the decisions have come first and the policy has taken a backseat. So, so you, so, so you very clearly see a businessman wants to bring in rich people. So 43. 5 crore you have just come and get the gold. Uh, you know, I don't
Abhinandan: see the cost benefit.
So,
Raman: so, so USAID, the money, which is just going out for some social sector or whatever, 90 percent cut. So I save my money. So, so, [00:29:00] but there is no policy decision as such has taken Indians, uh, or, or maybe some other students who are doing very, who are excelling in technology. Please, I mean, just asking the multinational companies, hire them so that the talent don't goes out of the, I mean, if you just look at the decisions, decisions have come first and the policy has completely taken a back seat.
I mean, the
Abhinandan: cost benefit analysis doesn't happen in any sensible way.
Raman: So I think it's not just capitalist or socialist, any, any country who wants to bring in changes for better. I think should look at the policies.
Shardool: And I remembered one thing when sir mentioned USAID. Elon Musk has stopped the USAID program for Africa, in South Africa.
Now, this is So ironical, the richest man in the world is taking from the poorest, most disadvantaged
Abhinandan: people. In fact, the BBC report on that woman who shows up for AIDS [00:30:00] medication and that it's, yeah, it's very sad report. I saw that report. But, uh, before we come back to Nitin, let's go the furthest color of crimson on this panel.
Jayshree.
Jayashree: Yeah. I have a strong issue with the idea of small government. I, okay. I have two things to say. The first is on small government, which is, I think, uh, Small government, I feel, is a talking point that's brought up whenever people say they don't want the government to step in and stop corporations from doing things that they do, which would be worker rights, would be customers, the environment, the public, wage suppression, health and safety, all the millions of evils, but they're like, no, we believe the corporation must be left alone to do whatever it wants.
So that is one. Two, there is obviously Wasted bloated spending in government, but also i'm equally sure that doge is not targeting that wasteful spending instead It's cutting crucial things like disease monitoring that affects the poor or those who live on welfare. It's The actual waste, the biggest waste of all, the military, which if it didn't find a genocide you would have that much more money, but no, that is not being touched.
And my thing is that Musk [00:31:00] is an idiot. There is no genuine desire to be more efficient. It's like what, um, Nitin said, these are just people who think they can do whatever they want and they're walking and they're like, oh my god, so many, we'll fire two million people. But based on what? There is no actual thought process in this.
He just wants to be the big guy who's making a lot of money in the process. I think Wired had this story yesterday about how So they've appointed a DOJ staffer to each department, and the guy who's appointed to the Department of Housing. He's the CEO of this huge property company and the guy they've appointed to, um, the treasury.
He has millions of contracts with the treasury through his company and you're telling me that we're supposed to believe that none of this is going to leak into the way that they are operating. No, I mean,
Abhinandan: what you said, let's, let's start with even Musk, like the conflict of interest when the white house press secretary was asked that many of the things that he's.
going to be looking at as a conflict of interest because his companies are interested parties. So she says, yes, we're aware of that. And wherever he feels as a conflict of interest, he will recuse [00:32:00] himself. So that itself is a conflict of
Jayashree: interest. Correct. And that is supposed to make sense. But the thing is that I think for a lot of people, and I think there was a poll on this recently is that.
Autocracy is very seductive, right? Like you want someone who's okay, you can either you can have checks and balances, which is really boring. Or you can have someone who's really effective, like he's moving in holding a chainsaw, literally, he's going to break things. And in the short term, people see them as very effective, right?
Like you think, especially if you're sort of politically aligned with them, you love the idea of someone taking swift action, especially when you're worried about immigrants, you're worried about spending too much on welfare, you're worried about woke ideology and He is sort of dismantling each of these but in the stupidest way possible.
I think they sent that email to federal employees saying two million of you can um, they give you the option of a buyout but I don't think the U. S. economy can actually afford to pay that if anybody can claim it. So they're just talking through their hat like makes no sense. So also yes it is full of lies and muck.
They're saying they saved 55 billion of spending, [00:33:00] the itemized thing, they only came up with 8 billion. Then they said we've blocked this ICE contract on diversity and it cost 8 billion, but actually it didn't, it was 8 million. Nothing is making any sense, but also no one is expecting it to make sense.
It's just,
Abhinandan: I had taken credit for some cuts that had been done before they came in. Yeah. And also,
Jayashree: how does a contract work? I can't just say I am ending a contract and you're saying, yeah, but now I'm not going to pay for the work that I've already commissioned and I've already approved when your government terminates a contract from convenience.
I assume you're still obligated to pay for work completed, but they're like, no, it's gone out the windows. We'll never pay it. You can't do that. It doesn't make
Abhinandan: sense. So, so Nathan, to come back to you, you know, on the numbers briefly, if you can tell me, I was really surprised that I think it was. Pre World War II, the U.
S. spending as a percentage of GDP government spending was, I think, 4 percent or so, it went up to 8 10%, then COVID, it hit 20%, and apparently post COVID, that became normal, so every year, so let's just stick to that, which is, uh, you know, ridiculous from the U. S. point of view, [00:34:00] but just want to ask you the political implication, and is there a political implication of this?
Is there a reason why there has been this pendulum swing the other way? And do you think it will swing now back? Because even rational, reasonable, small government advocates will be looked at, you know, suspiciously because of what Doge is doing. Now, I just want to quote this story. It's on NPR. Tyson Foods shut a meat processing plant in Perry, Iowa.
It shut it down and laid off all 1, 200 workers and that town has a population of 8, 000. So the economy of the town got decimated and Tyson went and hired, you know, all the migrants who were in tents. Who had been housed in New York for lower prices from there. So I mean, if you just look at it, you know, we are privileged.
This will not bother me or you. But if I am a worker, I'm saying, hello, I'm an American citizen. They're shutting down this factory here. And Tyson foods is hiring people from that migrant camp. And of course, Fox will go to [00:35:00] town with it that, you know, they are taking your jobs. Now, of course, there are some nuances there.
They had offered people in Perry to, if they want to move to Connecticut or wherever they're moving the plant, et cetera, et cetera. But. On the face of it, this is a real problem. Big government is a real problem. Is it that the so called, you know, progressive or liberal side has pretended it doesn't exist and therefore it's been taken over by the nutters, which will actually do more damage to that cause than good?
And finally, the numbers in Ruchir's book, is it, is it that much that U. S. is more, quote unquote, socialist than Europe, if you just go by percentage, government percentage of GDP? Spending.
Nitin: Yeah. I think first of all, we are not in the realm of discussing Ruchir's book and DOJ. Okay. We are two different things.
Ruchir's book is about sensible thinking about, about government side. This is just some complete nonsense, right? So, uh, see, first of all, very Ruchir point, it's not socialism or not is not about government's expenditure, but what that expenditure does. [00:36:00] If you intervene too much into the lives of people and businesses.
Uh, even with small amounts of money, it's still socialism. Right. So it's not, it's not, it's not that, but let's, let's come to what you're saying about this, the Trump thing. Why, you know, what, what is, why is this popular among certain segments? I think the narrative was not so much about. government spending a lot of money on social welfare, et cetera, that appealed to a small number of people.
Or for example, government is doing over regulation of the tech industry, et cetera. That probably appealed to a small number of people in Silicon Valley. But if you look at the masses, I think the concern was that the government is getting into all sorts of fancy liberal progressive causes. Which they don't necessarily agree with, right?
Short form of that is woke, three letter word is D. E. I. But, you know, the idea that the government is, you know, the sort of champion of all these left progressive causes got in the minds of ordinary people and said, this is not exactly what I want my government to [00:37:00] do, right? Now, when you think like that, Which party are you going to vote for?
Which politician are you going to vote for? Right? The only guy who you can vote for is Trump, right? And then Trump wins and similar things are happening around the world, right? A right of center voter has no choice because the left has totally alienated that person,
Abhinandan: right?
Nitin: So now when Trump comes to power, now the reason why I think they're doing DOJ is not just about efficiency.
The ideological reason is to create a government full of people who will play according to the tunes. Trump calls, right? The previous Trump admonition, they had a problem all the way from the top down to the people that you had government officials who are behaving like government officials and saying we are non partisan, uh, you know, public servants.
Our allegiance is to the constitution and we'll act according to what the constitution says, right? So if there were, if there were orders which were unconstitutional or unethical, they would do yes minister kind of things to him, right? They're sort of delayed, diffused. [00:38:00] Up until the very last, you know, the, the January 6th thing, there were people who were trying to stop unconstitutional action.
I think what the Trump, uh, you know, the ideological, uh, side wants. Is a government service all the way from the judiciary down to people in the armed forces, police, et cetera, who are loyal to Trump and the ideology that Trump stands for. Right. So, which, which I don't think necessarily means that, you know, this guy wants to become a fascist dictator for life or whatever.
But it means that if he were to make a decision, which says, let's close down USAID, right. Everybody falls in line. If he says, let's go and invade Greenland, right. Everybody falls in line. So I think that's the. technocratic ideological reason why they are doing this. Because more than sacking people, the doge process creates fear, uncertainty, doubt in the minds of people.
Line, rank and file civil servants, right? Mm-hmm . And people want to protect their jobs, right? They're not going to [00:39:00] go and become martyrs. I mean, they've been very brave people in the US government who've resigned, uh, rather than do unconstitutional things. Mm. But most rank and file people are not, you know, they didn't sign up to be martyrs or heroes, right?
They just want to, they don't want to, they just want a job, and they wanna do the job as best that they can. Here's a sort of hammer which is coming towards you and what you would do is you would do whatever necessary to duck that hammer, right? If it means answering Trump's email, uh, and Musk's email saying what did you do last week, you know, no harm in you responding because at least now Musk thinks that you are a guy who, uh, you know, who's, who's going to align with him because if we don't respond, the response, you know, the signal is that, look, you're taking Musk on.
Abhinandan: Right. Right. So, um, I mean, uh, and you know, the pendulum swinging, I hear you because it, it's like people held their nose and voted Trump. You know, Benny, reasonable people held the nose and voted Trump purely because of the issues [00:40:00] that Nathan is talking about. Uh, and I get that. Um, because I think that is another mistake that sometimes people make that anyone who votes one way is a fascist or is communal.
People have a, it's a spectrum.
Nitin: It's like saying it's complicated. Because you're privileged, right? Don't speak because you're privileged. I mean, you're not going to, you're not going to sit quietly, right? You're going to say, look, the guy doesn't even want me to speak.
Abhinandan: So
Nitin: what do I do? You know,
Abhinandan: I'll, I'll vote for Trump.
It's, it's complicated. And because, and on the other hand, Trump, because of this is getting away with such insanity with that video that he posted Trump Gaza. And then, um, I don't know whether you saw the video exchange between the main governor and Trump, uh, where he said that anyone who pursues these DEI policies will not get any federal funding and he asked her, this lady, uh, what's her name, the Maine governor, Janet Mills.
And, uh, he said it was just, he's such an obnoxious man.
Donald Trump: Is the Maine here, the governor of Maine? [00:41:00] Are you not going to comply with it? Well, I'm, we are the federal law. Well, you better do it. You better do it because you're not going to get any federal funding at all if you don't and by the way, your population, even though it's somewhat liberal, although I did very well there, uh, your population doesn't want men playing in women's sports, so you better come.
You better comply because otherwise you're not getting any, any federal funding. Every state. Good. I'll see you in court. I look forward to that. That should be a real easy one. And then he
Abhinandan: was just so nasty, but I mean, good on her to push back, but Now, that's what's happening. I will only release funding if you listen to what I say.
And his vice president has actually in a speech said we will defy court rulings, you know, any stay order on any of their rules. They said we should defy it. So it is going to become a mess. And I don't know, do you think that is why the markets are going crazy? Cause no one knows what the hell is happening or that's separate.
Nitin: I think so. I think so because the [00:42:00] markets, uh, would be, uh, I don't know how crazy they're going, but if I were an economic actor today, I would be worried about two things, right? I'd be worried about the prospects of an internal turmoil in the United States, which is the safest place to keep your asset, right?
I mean, us dollars. Treasury bonds are ultimately your safest assets in the world. So if the place where you keep your safest assets is going to have some kind of a turmoil, which is part political, part economic, then you would worry about it, right? So the base starts shaking. The second is nobody quite knows what these effects of these tariffs are going to be, right?
If and when they are levied. And, you know, he says he's going to do reciprocal tariffs on everybody and there will be retaliatory tariffs. So there are no, it's a dynamic thing, right? Because some people have modeled what will happen to India. I said, Oh, you know, only about 3 percent of our exports will decline.
And 0. 5 percent of GDP growth will be affected if Trump goes ahead and puts, uh, you know, tariffs on [00:43:00] us, right? That's a very static, uh, if nothing else changes kind of thing. But if everything else around you is changing, you just can't even estimate where things are going, right? So I think the turmoil reflects this.
Sort of, uh, uncertainty and people are trying to do whatever they can to grapple with this uncertainty, right? So that's why you see turmoil in markets around the world.
Abhinandan: So the incidental EU chief van der leyen met jay shankar yesterday and I got caught in that traffic jam It's in the papers today.
Apparently he was given prime minister level security I thought
Nitin: the fact that you were caught in a traffic No
Abhinandan: I was going for that event and I was like why is there a gridlock and today in the paper I saw because I would say the external affairs, I guess she went to Rajghat and also she went to meet Jai Shankar.
And apparently the Delhi traffic police was not aware that she has to get PM level, um, whatever movement this thing, because the rule here is now that either PM or president or heads of [00:44:00] state, there's a complete blockade, blockade. So I guess there may have been confusion as EU chief, is she head of state or is she not head of state?
So apparently that's why last minute they had caused that jam, but, uh, following this and this is, uh, I just wanted to weigh in and, uh, then we will let you go. Even EU now has said that, dude, the tariffs that India imposes, of course, they've said it nicely. They've been very polite about it, but even they want to re evaluate the tariffs that India imposes on EU goods and services.
Do you think Trump has set off a domino effect? Where every country says, you know, we've just let it be for so long. Uh, maybe we should re look at it and how much of this would be a loss to India or can we potentially gain from it?
Nitin: EU has no right to speak about tariffs, man. Come on. They have this latest one which is called what?
Carbon based adjustment mechanisms or whatever. So they're saying, look, we can't, our tariff is actually low. But if you're producing things which are not environmentally friendly, then there are additional charges [00:45:00] that you pay, you know, we levy. So it's, I mean, you, in a way, the EU US fight is, they're made for each other.
It's about time they started doing this because both of these guys have been sitting on a high horse for too long, reading out lectures on liberal economics and small states and, you know, free trade to the rest of the world, international law to the rest of the world. But the way they practice is always shabby, right?
So, now each one thief is calling the other thief's bluff, you know. So, let's see what that goes. But I think we have no business taking lectures from the EU. If the EU was such a paragon of virtue It wouldn't be in the kind of economic, uh, doldrums that it is in right now. Like they're being, uh,
Abhinandan: so you think there's just rhetoric?
They will, no one will re relook at the tariffs between India and eu. That they'll be,
Nitin: they'll be forced to. But what I'm saying is that this whole conversation about tariffs and realignment of tariffs is no longer in that old free trade. Let's get to free trade. Right. Reduce tariffs so that we get to a multilateral free trade kind of scenario.
That was the ideal [00:46:00] situ situation, and everybody was trying to reduce tariffs to get there. Hmm. But now the, the, that's not the game. Right. Uh, free trade is not the game. People are saying, look, he is going to impose tariffs, so what do I do? Right. So now I'm going to retaliate by putting, you know, X amount of tariffs.
But if the EU does that to the US, can it do it without affecting us? Right. And therefore we will impose some other kind of tariffs or rules on something else. So that's what I mean by being a, it's a, it's an uncertain and complex, uh, scenario. Nobody knows how
Abhinandan: this is going to turn out. Well, we live in uncertain times.
Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate your time. Uh, have a great day. I
Nitin: just wanted to say something on your show before I go. Yes. Can I say it? Of course, please.
Thank you Nathan. I wanted to say this for a long time, boss.
Abhinandan: Thank you so much. But before we let you go, as a tradition, we always ask our guests to suggest a book, an article of film that could end enrich the lives of our [00:47:00] listeners. It need not be to the subject. It could be, I dunno, sole, but something that you think was a good spend of time that you would like to recommend.
Nitin: See, as a author of a book, I should recommend my own absolutely. And so I would do that, but more, but I think, uh, on, on, uh, if I have to recommend something to people in India, I would recommend VP Menon's book called the integration of Indian states. And I think a lot of people, and maybe, uh, also Granville Austin's.
Working of an Indian constitution, making of an Indian constitution, right? V. P. Menon, these both books were written, you know, 40, 40 plus years ago. And V. P. Menon talks about how India was created, right? You know, all these princely states around, how they were forged together, the promises that the Union of India made to these princes and later reneged on.
And the consequences of that, right. And Granville Austin's book on how the Indian constitution came into being, right. It's, it's, we are a complex, we have a complex constitution because we are a complex society. So all [00:48:00] the, you know, fancy ideas that let's have a constitution as small as the United States, let's create a, you know, those are all fanciful ideas which are oblivious to the reality that we live in.
And I think people, you know, people who are listening to your show, people who are younger than you and I, Definitely need to read about how India was created and the Republic of India came into being.
Abhinandan: Right. And you can also pick up Nitin's book. The links for all are in the show notes below. Nitin, you want to just tell us what your book is about?
Nitin: Oh, my book is, okay. Uh, the Neetopadesha is a book of, uh, it's called Moral Tales for Good Citizens. So it's a book of fables, uh, about, about policy science, about economics, about morality. Uh, there are a lot of puzzles in there that are hidden jokes and so on. So yeah, pick it up. If you're interested in these kind of things.
Abhinandan: Thanks to them. Have a great day.
Shardool: What Nitin said, I wish Nitin was here. So one, this left thing, the, uh, I [00:49:00] am generally on nobody's side, but, and I have noticed that Manisha had talked about this, I think a couple of weeks ago. So like about the colonial bars and all like white people have reaped what they extracted from rest of the world for centuries.
And now they are because of tech, because the world has moved on, because the values they have been espousing for how many years now since World War II, they are being asked to share it in a bit fair manner. Like who has forgotten the military campaigns of USA in Southern America? Right. The continent in, in West Asia, which they call Middle East and how Vietnam was like, it was almost 50 years ago, not even a hundred years what they're doing right now.
Look what Trump is doing. What Trump is doing, what he has already done, always done in his life. He is acting as a thug, as a mafia boss. He used to do it in real estate. And he does it [00:50:00] unapologetically. Even his manner is such. Can you imagine he's saying, Gaza, give me the land. I'll make flats and sell them.
He is that. He bankrupted a casino. He's an orange buffoon.
Abhinandan: About
Shardool: Elon Musk, which I wanted to mention. One, Elon Musk has always Inquired businesses, which were innovative. He has not innovated himself to his current businesses are built on government grants and government NASA innovations. This is all just PR.
And one, how people might say this is a family podcast, like how far up his head is up his own ass is that he was Like I think two or three months ago, there was, there is a game and I know this because I'm into game.
Abhinandan: Path
Shardool: of Exile 2. He hired
Abhinandan: someone to play for him to make it look good. I'll tell
Shardool: you what, this game is very intensive, very difficult.
And he was not just saying that I'm good at it. He was saying I am one of the. Top 10 people in the world. Like you require only sleeping and shitting and you have to [00:51:00] do it all day, every day for months to become in top
10. The
people never leave their homes who are good at
this
because it's a difficult type of game.
It's an action strategy game. He hired people and then, okay, when he was live streaming, he was caught because he didn't know. He banned a. Twitch streamer. I mean, yeah, I read about
Abhinandan: that. Fucking what a bully. He banned that guy because he called him out. How thin skinned you are. I mean, that guy was
Jayashree: fan. Can I just bring up a couple of things?
One is, um, I think I have three things. One, I feel like this is not a family podcast. Two, I read one interesting, Two, I think, uh, I read one interesting outcome of all this DOJ action is that there is a secret impact on the media, which is that DOJ canceled subscriptions worth like eight and a half million to Politico.
They canceled subscriptions worth 2 million to Bloomberg. Okay, Bloomberg can easily afford it, but. That's one of the things. And two, also, my third thing is that we keep [00:52:00] saying that, you know, they are unapologetically shameful and, you know, thugs or whatever. But I don't think this is as exceptional as many people.
I mean, yes, it's awful. It's going to get much worse. But things are already pretty shit. I think billionaires. We're already hand in glove with the American state. They already controlled aspects of government. America is a country of oligarchs. It's just that now it is very naked. It is very open. There is an oligarch sitting in the White House.
I think it's more of the same thing when you talk about Jeff Bezos and Washington Post. Everyone is like, oh my God, Jeff Bezos is openly saying these things. But do you actually think it was not the case already? Like, do you think his fingerprints were not all over the operations of a newspaper? Also, The Washington Post has always told the line when it comes to what the American government wants and what the American state says, and you see it exactly in how it has reported on Israel and on the genocide.
This is what the American liberal media does. It is manufacturing consent. Now they're just saying you're manufacturing it for me, not for somebody else. So you know, dissenting voices on an op ed page might give you the sort [00:53:00] of shine of respectability, but at the end of the day, this is just more of corporates and governments controlling what you are reading.
Abhinandan: Right. I'd just like to remind everybody before we move on to the next subject about our new SENA project, the News Laundry News Minute project, where we're going to have at least seven reporters reporting from at least five states, if not more, on police excesses, uh, what defines policing in India, what are the kind of violations of human rights and Plain and simple law, they do, uh, why is it so brazen, uh, and how impacts our lives?
Uh, I think it's an extremely important story that needs your support. It should not be supported by government ads, Sarkari government ads, because then how are we going to do justice, actually investigating that government that gives us those Sarkari ads or billionaires. And secondly, a fight to breathe campaign, which is going to be through the year.
Here's a QR code for that. You can file RTIs. [00:54:00] You can tell us what is the AQ in your area. We need to fix this problem. It's not an NCR problem. Don't let legacy media fool you. It is no longer even a North Indian problem. It has gone all the way to Bombay. And it is also extending to Bangalore and it hasn't touched Chennai yet, but unless we fix it, it'll, all of India will be terrible AQI.
Jayashree: No, but Chennai AQI is relatively better than Delhi, but Chennai AQI is nowhere close to what like the WHO says is healthy air. We're all just breathing shitty air, but we're okay with it because we're like, yeah, but Delhi is worse.
Abhinandan: We should not be okay with it. So here's a QR code, fight to breathe campaign, get involved.
It is the completely non partisan campaign, doesn't matter what your political affiliation it is impacting you, it is impacting your children. So no matter what, where you stand in the political spectrum, we will hold everybody accountable. All the states that are in this area, their different state governments, the center, let's hold them to account.
On that note, I would like to move on to the next subject, [00:55:00] which is this whole language war that is brewing. And, uh, we have, luckily, multiple language speakers in this, uh, little panel of ours.
Jayashree: I hope you're not counting yourself as someone who speaks Tamil. That's the main question.
Abhinandan: I
Jayashree: don't
Abhinandan: know
Jayashree: Tamil.
Where are
Abhinandan: you from? Do you know?
Jayashree: My God, the man is fluent.
Abhinandan: My mother would be proud. Finally, my son has learned his mother tongue. Of all the
Jayashree: sentences to say, though.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But, uh, we have joining us. From Chennai, I'm guessing, Shabbir? Yeah. Yes. So Shabbir is Senior News Editor at the News Minute. Do check out his show, by the way.
Uh, we are part of the same team who are going to bring you ad free, non sponsored news. So do support us by the Joint News, London News subscription. So, uh, Jesse, why don't you lay the context before we get into this discussion on what is this battle? And in fact, uh, one very [00:56:00] effective, I think Stalin had done that tweet that Yeah.
Has all the, all the languages, all the languages swallowed, methody, Kui, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, that is why the pushback, and then we just get into that conversation, the nuances, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, Jesse, yours. Okay,
Jayashree: so the context is the central government said recently that it is withholding. over 2, 100 crore rupees in funds, which is Nadu.
This is under the Samagra Shiksha scheme because they're saying Tamil Nadu is refusing to join the PM Shri initiative. Now, the thing is Tamil Nadu is very keen to join this initiative, but it opposes the accompanying mandate, which is that it must implement the national education policy. Now it has multiple issues with the national education policy, which it has spoken about for a while, but key amongst us is that it is the national education policy says you must adopt a three language formula and schools.
So that would be English, Tamil, plus one. And Tamil Nadu has adopted a two language policy from the 60s. Tamil Nadu is the only state, I think, in India that has not adopted the three language policy. [00:57:00]
Abhinandan: Yes.
Jayashree: Now, the thing is, the NEP says Students and the state can choose the three languages they will learn as long as two of the three languages are native to India.
It does not mandate that you have to teach Hindi. But Tamil Nadu is saying this is a smokescreen, it's a backdoor policy to implement Hindi and I will explain why. One, because you do have limited resources to teach other languages outside of Hindi. Two, the government already does give funding to support the appointment of Hindi teachers in non Hindi states.
Three, there has been no effort by the center to or teach regional languages in schools like the Kendriya Vidyalayas, which come under the central government. There are zero instances of schools in, I don't know, like Uttar Pradesh that teach Tamil or Punjabi amongst their other languages. Instead, if you look at states that have three language policies, 32 of them teach Hindi.
I think about 15 or 16 of them teach Sanskrit. And honestly, you guys in North Indian states should be upset that this, Third language that you're being taught is Sanskrit, which has a fundamentally no value whatsoever. [00:58:00] So now what the central government is saying is that Tamil Nadu is sort of stabbing itself in the back.
They're saying, look, it's really useful for Tamil students are being shafted by not knowing Hindi. If they ever worked in a, in an MNC or whatever, in some other state, knowing Hindi would be useful. But the thing is that Tamil Nadu already outperforms on metrics like enrollment ratio in schools. There's lower dropout rates and.
Abhinandan: Bihar. Shame on you. And
Jayashree: there is no data to actually show how Tamil students are allegedly suffering by not knowing Hindi. That is my entire thing. These are random plot points that people are bringing up that there is some Tamil guys. somewhere in some MNC sitting and being sidelined by his co workers because he can't speak Hindi.
I don't know if this is actually like a thing. Also, I mean, look, when migrant workers from Uttar Pradesh and Bengal and whatever come to Tamil Nadu and come to Kerala, they start speaking in Tamil because you have to, you're not given a choice. The same thing happens if a Tamil migrant goes somewhere else.
It is this sort of middle class that has the [00:59:00] opportunity to say, well, I choose to learn this language or I don't choose to learn this language. There is nothing to suggest this third language must be taught in schools. So I don't understand why you have to waste very limited teaching resources and classrooms on a third subject that is of no benefit.
And this is completely separate from the issue that Tamil Nadu has always had about what it sees as Hindi imposition, which I feel Shabbir could also accept. But yeah, in my opinion, there's a very deluded concept, but this is the context. And
Abhinandan: this entire, uh, allegation of Stalin that, um, or not allegation.
It has been stated by the center by, I think, uh, minister Pradhan. That unless they comply, they will not get access to some of the federal funds.
Jayashree: And how can a central minister cannot have the power to withhold funds over this? I mean, the three language policy is not in the constitution. It's not mandated by law.
It is just. Policy and
Abhinandan: yeah, everything will have to go to the Supreme Court. I mean, Supreme Court should only run the country the the level of uh, you know, crises that are coming up. But on this, I mean at some point, you know, we should have a longer LT [01:00:00] A on this 'cause I think it's an interesting subject and we should have an LT that has a Bengali.
Yeah, I would like to say what a Bengali has to say because these bengalis, well I remember when I used to make ad films in the early two thousands to mid two thousands when ad agencies were still a thing. Now ad agencies are redundant at that time they used to have huge budgets 'cause. Ads are made one crore, two crore budgets.
Uh, every creative director of every ad agency was either a Basu or a Sen or a Dey. And so are the other copywriters. So if a producer like me went and sat in the meeting, the meeting would start in English and midway through Bengali. And then producers who are mostly Punjabi in Delhi would be looking at each other and they'd look at you as if you understood.
And because you wanted business, none of you had the. fucking guts to say, dude, we are not bloody Bengalis. Why are you talking in Bengali in this meeting? So I'm surprised Bengal and Centre haven't clashed because they are the most aggressive with their language. How do they sit out on this debate? But with that completely useless input to this discussion.[01:01:00]
Jayashree: Can I point out that I do exactly the same thing half the time in our meeting? Because at some point everyone is talking to each other in Hindi and now even I've been here for six and a half years okay and still even now people are like but you really can't speak we thought you can understand a bit and I'm like no man I'm not pretending like it's difficult.
Abhinandan: Vignesh, the CEO of News Minute is in town we had a you know a few meetings. And again, Midway, he's of course, such a polite, gentle Bangalorean. He'll smile through, and then once you've finished, he says, I didn't really understand what you said. Then I have to Are you saying I'm
Jayashree: not polite and gentle like Vignesh?
I'm
Abhinandan: super polite. Dude, okay, you may have been once upon a time, but after having spent enough time in news laundry I doubt it, but Shair, uh, yeah. Your take on this entire, uh, you know, language battle, is it only you, we see this come up, Hindi versus Tamil? Are all other states sitting this out? Do they not have a stake in this or is it not politically valuable to bring [01:02:00] this up in, let's say Karnataka or a Kerala or a Bengal?
Shabbir: See, uh, I think Karnataka also has some problem with, uh, NEP. Uh, at the same time, Kerala also has issues with NEP, like they don't want to completely, uh, say that we will not accept NEP in total. They're saying, okay, we are ready to accept certain portions of the NEP, but, uh, the demand by the central government is that you have to accept a national education policy in its entirety.
So that is where the problem is. So the problem that the Tamil Nadu government has with NEP is, uh, you know, uh, one, it's a uniform national policy on education and, uh, education being in the concurrent list, uh, the states were not even, uh, you know, discussed before forming a national education policy.
They were not consulted. Their inputs were not even, uh, you know, uh, taken into consideration. So these are all [01:03:00] basic issues. The real issues here are very basic and that is something that the central government should have looked into before rolling out the NEP. Uh, like Jayshree said that it's not, uh, you know, mandatory.
It's not something which is there in the constitution. It's a recommendation. Whether you accept the recommendation or not is a choice that has to be given to the state government. As far as language is concerned, the BJP government knows that it's an emotive issue. It's a sensitive issue. But despite that the minister's statement was, uh, arrogant.
And that is one of the reasons why this entire issue flared up once again, like you said in Bengal. I think it's a Partha Chatterjee who has a small group of people and they have been protesting about the language issue in West Bengal. And then there are some groups in Kerala, some groups in Karnataka, these are all very small groups.
But as far as Tamil Nadu is concerned. [01:04:00] Tamil Nadu's, uh, you know, language is one of the most important component of Tamil Nadu politics.
Abhinandan: So
Shabbir: it's intertwined and, uh, and, and anything that has to do with language, immediately there'll be protest on the streets of Chennai or on the streets of Tamil Nadu.
The BJP will have to, you know, go on a back foot because there is no other option here. Even the state BJP says that you cannot impose Hindi. That's the official position of the state BJP. The state BJP though they support the, uh, you know, three language policy, though they say that, okay, why not Tamil students learn, uh, you know, an additional language so that it will be good for their career and all that.
But they are against Hindi imposition.
Abhinandan: So the
Shabbir: whole point here is that when you touch language, it flares up. And Dharmendra Pradhan, I don't know what he was thinking when he made that statement at, uh, the Kasi, uh, Kasi Sangamam. [01:05:00] The entire, uh, you know, uh, uh, the, the entire ecosystem of the DMK, including the government, they were out on the streets.
They latched up to this issue. They latched on to this issue. And now this issue has become one of the most, uh, uh, you know, uh, key issues in Tamil Nadu. So, so much so that, uh, Stalin has released a statement today asking his party workers to fight for Tamil language, one, and two, he has also taken up the issue of delimitation.
Abhinandan: So
Shabbir: Tamil language has become, uh, like a struggle for their, uh, lifeline and delimitation has become the struggle for. Uh, the rights of Tamil Nadu. So that's how the DMK is setting a narrative here. So the point here is that, uh, you know, BJP wants to actually control. Everything.
Jayashree: Delimitation is the best sort of comparison for this because Amit Shah was being very disingenuous when he said yesterday that Southern seats will not lose states to delimitation because that is not the [01:06:00] point.
The Tamil Nadu may have 39 seats now, it may go up to 41 or whatever, but Uttar Pradesh will go from 80 something to over 120. That is the issue. So similarly, when they're saying, well, you don't have to implement Hindi as the third language, it can be any language at all, but your entire system is geared that logistically it will make more sense.
for Hindi to be taught and therein lies the issue and it shouldn't have been brought up. So also they could just de link this PM Shree thing from NEP and funds entirely. Like there is really no need to have tied it together, but he has tied it together. And I think the reasons are
Abhinandan: obvious, but Raman Sir, before I come to you, just a little anecdote, I'm on this WhatsApp group, which has some very Amongst the most privileged people in our country, many of them are predictably not in India, but weighing on everything that's happened in India, they've been abroad for so long.
This discussion is playing out in that group. And one of these very wealthy bankers from the United States vibes up. What is wrong with you guys who are opposing this? You should be proud that you learn [01:07:00] the most ancient language. In the world. Sanskrit. Why are you speaking Tamil? I was like, dude, Tamil is, if not more ancient, at least as ancient as Sanskrit, and it is, in the Guinness Book of World Records, even today, acknowledged across the world, the most ancient language still in use, in the world, not just in India.
So, before you wane, at least this much you should know about Tamil, even a fake Tamilian like me knows that much. Uh, and those of you who would like to say, you know that, like Vivek Agnihotri, that it was not mythology, it was history. When, it was Shivratri a few days ago, when Bholenath bhajaoed his damru, From one side Tamil came out and from the other side Sanskrit came out, of course, no one that yeah, that's the myth.
Shardool: That's a mythological tale.
Abhinandan: As per Vivek, that's history. It's not mythology. So one sound that was Tamil, the other side was Sanskrit, but people [01:08:00] said that sounds good. We'll, we'll use it to speak and the Sanskrit said we'll take it in plus two because you can get 100 percent like, I took it. I learned Sanskrit for five years, sir.
I
Jayashree: learned Sanskrit for about eight years. I do not remember Jack.
Abhinandan: I wish I had learnt Jack. Urdu. I could have, you know, not had to go for my mother to translate Ghalib each time. I could have learned French. I could have impressed girls. I could learn Spanish. I could have sung whatever the hell instead of sounding like a buffoon, but bloody, I have learned nothing.
See the beauty. I only really Punjabi who just every now and then comes up with some Punjabi yo yo honeysick song because I at least know the lyrics.
Jayashree: I learned Sanskrit and because I went to CVSE school, so we didn't learn Tamil, which is my greatest shame. And I learned Sanskrit because it's a scoring subject.
And the worst thing is that my school is really into Sanskrit. So I can sing happy birthday to you in Sanskrit because that's really important. I can also sing Old MacDonald has a farm, which also serves me really well. 35 years. Yeah, because my school is like,
Abhinandan: yeah, you can do it. So we know what [01:09:00] today's Hafta song will be.
You have been warned. You have been warned.
Jayashree: But it's like, so it has no utility whatsoever, but I did score. So, yeah,
Shabbir: but I tried learning Hindi in school, but it didn't happen. Like somehow, for some reason. Uh, you know, learning Hindi has never been, uh, uh, so important, even like, like what Jayshree said, like, if you want to survive in North India.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Because in the South, there is, yeah, I completely get it. But Raman Sir, you weigh on this, on this NEP, is this a battle worth fighting for anyone or is it all about identity politics for votes? Okay.
Raman: Okay. Uh, even before NEP. Uh, when it comes to the, uh, teaching languages in school, I did my schooling in 1970s, right?
Uh, from, uh, I was in the government school. So English comes in the sixth level. So you get English, [01:10:00] Hindi, and you have to take another language. Now it is just by default, you have to take Sanskrit because there are no other teachers.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Raman: There's no other language being taught in your school. But earlier the government approach was, I mean, of course they used to, uh, promote Hindi, but it was, uh, this, they, I think the, uh, Congress mostly ruled in the first 60 years and the Congress, uh, and I think the, they felt that, uh, you know, this language development will take its own course.
They did not. Uh, you know, impose the way the present government is imposing it on the South. If you see the language policy, right from the, if, if, say, the three language formula in the Northern, uh, in the schools existing in Northern India. Again, it is absolutely by default you're getting either Sanskrit.
You're, you're not, you're not getting [01:11:00] any. No, no. I mean, only in Tamil, Tamil run school in Delhi, you know, you get, uh, Tamil to, uh, study in Telugu school, Telugu in Harikrishan public school, you will learn Punjab, Gurumukhi, Gurumukhi. So, so, uh, or, uh, maybe, uh, Urdu, I think, uh, maybe, uh, I, I don't know. And although
Abhinandan: Urdu is also one of the options for the today.
I mean, I was just noticing at least on AIR, there is a Sanskrit news bulletin, which is very interesting to listen to. Uh, there's an Urdu news bulletin, uh, which I also, you know, listen to, and a lot of it, I find fascinating the words that I use. And of course, there's an English news bulletin. The one thing that they have.
in common, all of them. And I'm not joking. I think I had asked one intern to monitor it over a week. All of them start off with Aaj Shree
Raman: Narendra Modi. Yes.
Abhinandan: Every bulletin [01:12:00] starts with that. I, you know, cause every day we're coming to office and listen to that AIR. I was dammit, you know, not day one, not day two, every single day, those are the first three words.
But yes, uh, our other linguist here, I mean, let's be honest, you are one of the few who is as fluent in English as in Hindi. It is a rare combination. So you should be proud of it.
Shardool: Yeah. And it was self taught. Like, so I want to speak in education policy as someone who has a learning disability. The academics were destroyed by our school system.
So, but the point is I want to defend my mother tongue a bit
Abhinandan: like
Shardool: you, no language is inferior or superior.
Abhinandan: Sorry. Before I say, when you said you had a learning disability through autism, what is the nature of disability? It's not
Shardool: autism. I have dysgraphia, which is like,
Abhinandan: okay.
Shardool: Hindi idiom, Chor akele nahi aata, like bhai bhai teejon ko saath laata, so dysgraphia, I know the shit, but if you want me to write it on paper with a limited time.
Okay, you got it, got it, understood, fine. [01:13:00] So, that's why I could never finish the exams in the limited time, it takes too much effort to write on paper. Right. When I found keyboard, then It became better, the life became better. Anyway, so no language is inferior or superior. That debate is moot because every language, you know, compels you.
Once you start thinking in it, compels you to think in a different way, you start to absorb its values and its literature. I mean, I could kind of
Abhinandan: agree with you, but if I wanted to serenade you, I would probably do it in Urdu. If I want to abuse you, I do it in Punjabi. I'm not saying all languages are equal.
I'm not saying equal. I never said
Shardool: equal. They're optimized for certain things. Languages have their own characteristics, their own literature and each language compels you to think in a different way because there is a cultural aspect to every language, including Sanskrit. You can read a lot of ancient books without the interpretation of the translator because every translator puts something in it, right?
The problem with this [01:14:00] three policy, three language policy to me is not everybody is one. You know, very good in learning languages too. They don't need to like Jayshree said, they keep it as an elective. And the other part is absolutely right that the union government since like since independence or at least since 60s have been spending money for Hindi Prachar Vibhag basically to spread Hindi.
Now last year, I think this government assigned 50
Abhinandan: crores
Shardool: and this, and that's only for Hindi. Yes, for Hindi. They have spent 600, nearly 622 crores. I was just perusing through documents because we had to discuss this 622 crores for Sanskrit. Why not for other languages? If you want to be equitable, just give equal money to all languages.
Let people learn what they want and whoever wants to learn. Why burden students with learning a
Abhinandan: language where they don't want to Which ties us to the early [01:15:00] discussion. Should the government even have an outlay for this is my question.
Raman: This government has created. A lot more social conflict, uh, you know, by taking, uh, advantage of our diversity.
Right. I mean, if you see the common, uh, But I'm just wondering whether this
Abhinandan: has any political, uh, you know, positive outcomes. Is, is, is there a positive outcome or like, uh, so you were discussing with me upstairs, there is a cultural project, which we had always said there is no economic, Mr. Modi has no economic project.
It is a cultural project. Now he said it. Out and out open. Yes. The economic project comes second, cultural project comes first, but is there any political traction in this? What do you think, since you're from a Hindi speaking state, is there political traction in your view? Of course, there's no data statistics, but just from your lived experience, you think this is something, something people will back it, this is something we'll vote on.
Shardool: So from the crowd, in the crowd I grew up in, like RSS crowd, through and through, this is a very minuscule issue. Nobody [01:16:00] cares that there are people do care, right? Everybody holds some sort of inherent, but there are always better issues. And other thing I wanted to say is in a country diverse, like India, you cannot preach a policy.
I was going language
Abhinandan: policy,
Shardool: any policy. We cannot, we cannot centralize like a child growing up. And I imagined it by Tamil Nadu is saying, so I imagined myself not in a. City like Chennai in a small, like, like the school I grew up in, you sit on a Pattaon, you don't have much money. You go into government school.
And now you need to learn a language. The third one, let's say hypothetically Tamil Nadu accepts it. Now you need to learn a language. Now, which language would you choose? Now there are many central government jobs, especially like the tribal teaching one, knowing Hindi is compulsory.
Abhinandan: So this So automatically there's an incentive pushing you.
So there is an inherent bias. So there's a nudge.
Raman: Okay. So there's the language. [01:17:00] Uh, in their case, RSS case, and even, uh, for BJP as an arm of, uh, RSS, it has a cultural connotation. So, so, so again, the cultural, uh, culturally they want to unite the entire, so Hindi is, uh, has more cultural connotation. And second aspect is politically, it definitely benefits, there are, uh, there is a data that, uh, the central government is.
In the center because of, uh, their, uh, you know, votes from, uh, the Hindi belt. From the Hindi belt.
Abhinandan: Right. Although, I'm not sure a language is the reason for that. I think it's, uh, I mean, my guess is of course, I don't know, but yes, you're right. It consolidates. It consolidates. I'm not sure it consolidates because of that.
That's no South
Raman: Dubai
Abhinandan: advocacy for Hindi. But yeah. Uh, SHAIR, uh, is it a political issue that has resonance there? Uh, and is that, you know, across.
Shabbir: [01:18:00] It is a political issue because, uh, you know, Johnson's slogan was, uh, Hindi, Hindu, Hindutva, Hindustan. You know, that trajectory is still there. They have not given up on that, uh, uh, you know, agenda.
So here, while, uh, you know, defending the three language policy, look at what, uh, Union Minister L. Murugan says. That if you want to cross Tamil Nadu border, and if somebody abuses you, you need to know Hindi to respond. So this was this, this was this, uh, you know, clarification. My kind of guy. My vote goes to you, bro.
Jayashree: Didn't some other BJP leader say one woman, she said that, um If you're being, if you're being assaulted by a man, you should be able to tell him, please step out. Because
Abhinandan: usually only Hindi speaking men are assaulted. Is that a logic?
Shabbir: What is the logic of that? Maybe that could, that is an offensive statement, but yeah, that's,
Abhinandan: I'm offended as a Hindi speaker.
Shabbir: So that was a statement made by BJP leader, [01:19:00] Alisha Abdullah. Then there was another BJP leader who said that. If you even want some, uh, some, some more food, or if you want to buy pani puri, Bhaiya do pani puri de do, you need to know Hindi. To even ask, you know, to even ask for food, you need to know Hindi.
You know, these are the kind of statements that are made by these BJP leaders here. So, I think, uh, you know, the entire project, though it may be political, But it will not succeed in Tamil Nadu because the BJP has completely misunderstood. They, they like seen professor Srinivasan, who was a vice president of the BJP.
Uh, he says, uh, that, you know, the reason why DMK or other political parties in Tamil Nadu are opposing, uh, uh, you know, the people of Tamil Nadu to learn Hindi is because they will understand Prime Minister Narendra Modi's speech. And then they will start voting for the BJP. So this is one of the reasons why they don't want, uh, people of Tamil Nadu to learn BJP.
Learn Hindi. [01:20:00] You know?
Abhinandan: So
Shabbir: these are the kind of statements that are there, but, uh, there is one, one thing that is very clear that BJP is unable to connect with the people of Tamil Nadu. And that they feel is because of the language barrier. But what they don't understand is Tamil Nadu has a history. There has been anti Hindi agitations, uh, from 1937 at different points in time and af in 1968.
Tam adopted a two language policy there in the matter. The, the, even if you go, even AI ad MK was in, uh, BJPS Alliance in 98. When the NEP came, they refused to accept, uh, the, you know, three language policy. They, they said, no, we will not implement three language policy. A resolution was adopted on the floor of the house saying we'll stick to two language policy.
So that's the kind of opposition, but still the BJP wants to play with fire. But in this case, the BJP wants to control. The BJP wants to say that if you want money, if you want [01:21:00] funds. Yeah, which
Abhinandan: my guess is, is completely unconstitutional. Like Everything else will have to be decided by the Supreme Court from governors passing bills to whether Delhi is controlled by LG to CM every other week there is a new constitutional crisis.
I don't see how you can tie this funds to, you have to agree to our language policy, but unfortunately that's why we are, let Jesse have the last word on this before we wind up this week after.
Jayashree: No, I don't have much else to add except that I do. Um, you had mentioned Stalin's tweet, I think that he put up yesterday where he said.
Hindi has swallowed so many Indian languages and he named Maithili, Bhojpuri, Kumari, whatever. And, but it is, I mean, it makes for a great tweet, but also it is a very good point, right? Because we sort of, you go north of Vindhyas, you're like, yeah, that is Hindi speaking states, but you are not.
Abhinandan: It wasn't in the states.
I mean, Uttar
Jayashree: Pradesh was always this Hindi, but even then the sort of Hindi like diverged from state to state. And also there are so many other regional languages and the implication that Hindi means the extermination of a local language is true.
Abhinandan: Right.
Jayashree: And you're. In [01:22:00] Tamil Nadu it has very little currency because you're saying it will give you some kind of utility that no one can actually define so it doesn't make any sense and you did ask about, um, aren't other states also getting angry?
I think just this week Telangana and Punjab, uh, made a compulsory for schools in their states, respectively. You have to teach Telugu. You have to teach Punjabi because I mean, I've always wondered, like, how is this not a bigger issue, maybe in the East or whatever, but the thing is that it was, in Tamil Nadu, it's an exceptional case because they did mandate it in the 60s and no other state did that, so it's also why there's that push.
Abhinandan: I think there is a case to, you know, make Punjabi compulsory purely because even, and I remember my mother was laughing about it, my niece got married last week, I had gone, you know, when I'd gone three days. The hardcore Tams, I mean, you know, Tam marrying Tam and that sort of, but the music and the Sangeet Punjabi, you go and you listen.
So And when they're singing along, they're singing gibberish. So just for the [01:23:00] reason that at least you sing along correctly, you know, Punjabi can be made compulsory from an early age to all people across the country. And if not the world, because even German nightclubs are playing Punjabi music. Great plan.
Yes. See, but that's
Jayashree: my thing. So it's not that I, it's not like we're sitting on some sanctimonious high horse and saying Tamil is the greatest language in the world. We are the cradle of civilization. That's why we won't learn another language. It is that. There is so much precedent of how Hindi has taken over other local regional languages and there is just no need for it to happen here.
More
Abhinandan: importantly, like Shabbir said, there is a political, it is not just a benign pursuit of let's expand our linguistic, you know, knowledge or intellectual awareness consuming different literature. For example, I'm always, whenever, and I'm asked to speak so often on what is Indian media. So my first two lines always are, I can tell you about Hindi media and English media.
I cannot tell you about Indian media. Because when I speak to Marathi speakers, some of the, you [01:24:00] know, commentary on caste is phenomenal in Marathi, but I'm not fucking aware of it, man, because I cannot read Marathi. Most of the news consumption in the southern state is in that language. So I cannot tell you about Indian media, but yes, I can tell you about English media.
So that kind of, uh, you know, fragmentation is there, which would, you know, if one said that, you know, learn about X, learn about Y, it just makes us more aware. Good case, kind of difficult in one lifetime, the number of languages, but I think one thing is very transparent. In this government's case, it is not a pursuit of broadening our intellectual horizons.
Clearly that cannot be the case when their ministers say the kind of things that they do and So Amir Ram de is curing homosexuality with the cabinet minister sitting next to him. I mean, the buffoon is, buffoonery is number one. So there is no pursuit of any intellectual broadening of horizons. Uh,
Shardool: you were saying three quick points.
One, so even originally up was not I and D. So Hindi was a state [01:25:00] policy after independence. So you had major languages. Adi, you still know Bpu and Bra, the language of Uppi, of course, or was born in Uppi. So these were. Up languages. Oh, was it? I didn't know that. Yes. Oh, okay. The second point I wanted to make was that Mr.
Modi and this government spend their life, you know, criticizing Gandhi, family and emergency especially, and they're right. Education used to be a state list policy, and it was in the R Gandhi in 42nd Amendment, which bought into concurrent one. They never fixed it.
Abhinandan: All
Shardool: union governments, they have never fixed it.
And the third last point, the politicians like these. The ones who give bad name to Hindi, like the language in itself is fine. All languages are good. Like you can learn something new. This is why the discourse becomes so poisonous
Abhinandan: and toxic on social media. And also they don't know, especially when Atul had done that wonderful tipani on that.
When they were insisting that everyone should know, and they asked the bjb spokesman to sing it. Yes. And he said, whatever busman, [01:26:00] you know, that was, that He did not even know. Even I know it, I even know the meaning. Yes. But yes. So let Shara the last word before he gives us his recommendation for the week and says goodbye.
Shabbir: So like, like I said, it's political. Uh, before I, I think, uh, you know, imposition of Hindi has been an issue in Tamal Nadu for a very long time. But no government has used all its institutions to impose Hindi like the BJP is doing. And that is where the problem is. And particularly when they want to do it in education, that's where the entire opposition is.
And I think this will continue. And this will also become an election issue. The DMK is clearly using this for the 2026 election. They're setting a narrative. They're setting an agenda. The BJP does not have a comeback. The BJP will have to defend and all other political parties, they cannot, uh, go against the DMK particularly on these issues because Except [01:27:00] BJP, all the other political parties are on one side.
They are, they don't oppose Hindi, they oppose imposition of Hindi. So that's a clarity that, you know, with all these, all these political parties are approaching this issue.
Abhinandan: Right. Thanks, Shabbir. Before we say goodbye, please give us a recommendation that would enrich the lives of our listeners. And of course, you can also watch Shabbir's show, you can plug that as well.
Shabbir: Okay. So I have a recommendation. Uh, this is one, uh, uh, article that has appeared on the wire. It's about, uh, the Delhi election. It's written by Akash Bhattacharya. It's about how a social coalition of the marginalized can have, uh, kept the BJP out of Delhi. It's about Delhi elections, how the India Alliance failed to, you know, come up with a, uh, you know, a strategic social coalition.
And another suggestion that I want to make is, uh, do watch Pooja's, uh, let me explain this week on the news minute. It's about, [01:28:00] uh, the anti Hindi agitation, the history of anti Hindi agitation in Tamil Nadu. Why language is, uh, Political, why it is important and why, you know, every time when BJP does something in Tamil Nadu, particularly with Tamil language, why, you know, it flares up politically.
So
Abhinandan: thanks, Shabbir. Look forward to having you in our studio sometime, but until then, virtually on the screen. Bye bye. Thank
Shabbir: you. Bye
Abhinandan: bye. Bye Shabbir. On that note, let's get the emails and your feedback, which we find very valuable. You can mail us at podcasts at newsronny. com I repeat podcasts at newsronny.
com. We only entertain the criticism, critique, feedback, suggestions of subscribers. If you're not a subscriber, you can leave your abuse on my Twitter timeline or in the comment section and YouTube below, or you can just click on the link in the show notes as a subscriber window will open and you can request your feedback.
I see this week, some of you subscribers. have [01:29:00] been very clever, like that one president that was set by, uh, what was his name? Who sent two males to 150 words is a limit. So comrade, yes, the autistic gentleman, Anish Rao has sent us 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,
Jayashree: 8,
Abhinandan: 9. The combined word count is 1143 words. Anish, you have not just breached the word count.
You have taken a chainsaw to the word count. You have done a dodge to the word count. So this mail, we will read your first one. The rest should be.
Jayashree: No, no, no. But Anish has also kindly sent a chat GPT condensed version of all nine emails. And he said, please read that out loud. The other stuff we have to read and internalize ourselves.
We'll do that
Abhinandan: ourselves. But, uh, so let's start with the first, I'll read the first couple, then Jayshree can take over. Anonymous says consumption of [01:30:00] appropriate news media has become all the more important in today's age. While organizations such as News Laundry are few and far between. I'm curious to understand where do you get your daily dose of sane, balanced business and political news?
Recently, Abhinandan referred to the core report, which is quite useful. Can you all share other such daily, weekly content avenues? Thank you and keep up the great work. So let's start with what's your news consumption like to keep it balanced, Ajayashree? Maybe
Jayashree: I read three newspapers. I read Times of India, The Hindu and The New Indian Express.
I think between all three of them you get a fairly wide range, especially of city coverage, which I think is really important. Uh, online I consume Navarro Media. I read Jacobin. I read New Line Magazine. I read Owen Jones. I feel like I read very leftist sort of outlets because the right, the sort of more conservative side of it comes to me anyway, whether I ask for it or not.
So I do seek out new sources that are. politically.
Raman: [01:31:00] Uh, Indian, uh, there are six to seven newspapers, uh, Hindustan Times, Times of India, Indian Express, Hindu, then, uh, Business Standard, Mint. Economic times. So I, of course, I'm I will not be able to read from cover to cover. But I think I consume most of the relevant, you know, articles in two hours to two and a half hours of the seven.
Then, uh, In office, whatever, uh, I'm interested in, say BBC, CNN or foreign publish, publishing. So that also I, uh, read when it comes to news. Uh, in terms of podcasts, mostly I'm listening to health podcasts.
Abhinandan: I see.
Raman: So, so,
Abhinandan: so for health news, you can tap into,
Raman: uh, [01:32:00] health. Yes.
Shardool: So I read three news like I, when I opened up, I just scrolled one, of course, Indian express Hindu and then Bhaskar for Hindi side news and Gorkha Patra, which is for Nepal.
And you get to learn a bit of Nepali language. And I'm recently trying to inculcate economic times and Wall Street General because Ram assigned me the economic things to read that and popular science,
Abhinandan: right? So I mean, I, I have two newspapers that I read every day, which is Times India and In Express, but not cover to cover Ed.
I see who's written what, like I will not read the Rama oped. Uh, I will not read today's, the oped Rama will tell me about it in brief . But, uh, I, you know. On matters of foreign policy, I'll always read what Suhasini recommends. So Twitter is a huge tool for me. So you know, I, you know, I will not name all reporters because I may leave a few out, but a few reporters that I follow whenever they recommend something, I read that.
For [01:33:00] international news, every night before I go to sleep, I'm, uh, I listen to the global news podcast, uh, of BBC world. I listened to every episode of NPR, Planet Money. Uh, I listened to all the Economist podcasts. Uh, and I consume a lot of media from Scroll, News Minute, here and there again, based on what is recommended.
I read many links that Nitin also actually suggests on Twitter sometimes. So I go by what people who I, you know, think, know what they're talking about, recommend.
Jayashree: Yeah, that's actually exactly what I do because sometimes I feel like I'm I'm not online enough that I'm not checking Twitter all the time. So I'll go to the timeline of someone whom I trust.
Yeah. And I'll read everything they've RT'd and then I feel quite like up to date.
Abhinandan: So I hope that was useful. By the way, just yesterday, everyone, the panel also, I'll tell you, I was discussing with Chitranshu and Vignesh that we should actually have a paid service where we recommend a reading list for subscribers who want like a [01:34:00] balanced view of things.
That, what do we suggest? So I was like Remember
Jayashree: we did this briefly. We used to put up a piece every Sunday called NL Recommends, where we would recommend one thing to read or whatever from, it was, it was actually really nice. Yes. We're figuring out,
Abhinandan: we should actually start that again. We should do it in a way.
Then Arthi says, and this Arthi I'm sure is from the South because it's not Arthi, it's Arthi. Hi NL team. I want to share this. Super informative podcast discussion with you making sense of sovereign debt, how colonialism continues to very much exist and is crippling the global South through the debt crisis, even eroding the Western economies.
I request everyone listening to also please support debtjustice. org. uk and their fight back. The link to the Aarti's recommended podcast is in the show notes below, so you can check it out. And, uh, Then Sushmita says, Hello people. Love the podcast. It's the [01:35:00] first thing I do when the weekend begins. But I was miffed about Abhinandan's tirade against older texts because they are supposedly irrelevant.
Older texts? You would be surprised how much these classics, oh okay, still hold true even what they, even when they're 200 years old. They are classics for a reason. Contemporary scholars are only building on the work that has been done by Adam Smith or Marx. There is merit in citing them because they have us.
us frames to think with. I'm guessing you mean that they help us frame things in the appropriate way. Or they've
Jayashree: given us frames to think. Okay,
Abhinandan: God. I'm not saying that everyone has to read them, but you also don't need to dismiss them. There is so much anti intellectualism in this world from Modi who says Harvard nahi hard work.
University is moving towards killing as their primary goal. I don't think NL needs to add to that point taken Sushmita.
Shardool: What did you try to guess? Basically what I said
Abhinandan: was we were having a chat. Actually it was a very innocuous statement by Anand where [01:36:00] he quoted Adam Smith talking about you know, certainly my point actually, I wasn't saying that they have no use.
My point was that we should not make economic forecasts or, uh, assumptions of consumer behavior based on what Marx or Adam Smith said, because now we have so much data that I'm not saying in any case you cannot make accurate economic forecasts. It is the most unscientific science. I would rather say, okay, what has happened in these economies when this happened, rather than what Adam Smith said would happen.
Raman: Yeah. And their approach was ideological approach towards consumption.
Abhinandan: Yeah. It
Raman: wasn't based on data.
Abhinandan: Although Anand was not using it as a informed, he was just using it as a rhetoric, you know, a slogan. But I think I just overreacted. Because
Shardool: I read also a lot of
Abhinandan: ancient texts. So I will let Jessie to go from here.
Jayashree: So this is Anish's shortened [01:37:00] version of the nine emails he sent us. He's asked that we read those nine emails. Um, so he says, Hi team. I've been a newsletter supporter since its inception. Watching Clothesline. Can you take it? Abhinandan's interviews during my DU days was a delight. He is interviewing style that is letting people talk themselves into trouble was masterful.
Manisha and Atul have beautifully filled the clothesline shaped hole in my heart. I finally started paying in 2020, not just because I could afford to, but because I couldn't imagine life without news laundry. Your Hawa ka Haq project resonated deeply. As a chemistry researcher, I constantly think about solutions to air pollution.
I'd love to explainers. Rooting for you always. I hope this letter echoes the sentiments of many silent supporters like me. That is really sweet. Thank you so much, Anish. That is
Abhinandan: so sweet of you. But we will read all your mails individually also later.
Raman: And he can send us his research, anything about. In fact, Anish,
Abhinandan: our team that is doing this will get in touch with you because we have actually a pool of people, you know, area [01:38:00] experts who we are tapping into various aspects of this because there's a year long campaign.
You will hear from us soon so you can get involved. Thank you.
Jayashree: Sharath says, Hi, as part of a climate action pan, can this contest be conducted? What is the most polluted place in India? It can be a competition between places near thermal power plants or cities and places will be awarded like a prize and create a buzz on the news laundry handle.
Like Delhi defeated luck now defeated japu just like a vacation. It's a fun idea.
Abhinandan: Great idea, sir. I think we should do this. We should do this. The wall of shame. Hmm.
Jayashree: Next, uh, is email is from Azar who says, hi. I've been listening to your news and podcast from a very long time. I recently bought your subscription to, is it necessary to do a Shoshan Redemption kind of thing and send multiple emails so that you may notice it, or do you censor some of the emails on purpose?
I understand there may be some security or political and other issues associated with some of the email's contents, but isn't it better to at least give a reply on the mail itself if not on the podcast? [01:39:00] Also, what is Anand's view on the fax machine controversy during the abrogation process? Manisha, I love your fieldwork.
Thank you. So Ijaz,
Abhinandan: I, we don't censor any mails. I mean, if you've sent before and they haven't come, maybe they'll end up in, uh, spam. But what we don't read is if someone has made an allegation that XYZ has taken money and beat up XYZ. Appreciate it.
Yeah.
Journalistically, we cannot read that bit out unless we can corroborate it
journalistically.
So some of the mails we get, there are specific allegations, we just leave that chunk out under that specific allegation can be backed by demonstrable proof, which is a journalistic basically, basic ethos. But otherwise we don't censor any
Jayashree: emails. And also that happens quite rarely. I mean, it's rare for someone to send us stuff like that.
Abhinandan: You just do right again. Did any of your emails not find their way here? Because if they did, then they went elsewhere because we don't censor.
Jayashree: Next email is Hindu who says, listening to you discuss. Charlie Hebdo got me writing. In my opinion, the Western support for [01:40:00] Charlie Hebdo is probably due to more acceptance of Charlie Hebdos views rather than French veneration for secularism.
The 2008 firing of sign for an supposedly antisemitic article by Charlie Hebdo does not exactly scream equal opportunity offenders. Charlie Hebdo has Lampo Judaism, but can they ridicule Judaism for what Israel does in the Middle East? Instead, repeated lampooning of Muslims as barbaric, violent zealots in a society with African Muslims and Arab immigrants facing systemic discrimination is not exactly punching up.
Charlie Hebdo's right to offend is and must be preserved, but it doesn't deserve a pedestal of lofty ideals. Secularism is deeply entrenched in the French psyche, and so are ideas of colonization civilizing the uncivilized. The extermination campaign in Gaza, with state and media support for over a year, has removed the veneer of free speech in the free world.
It's reminded us some are more egalitarian than others. I agree entirely with this.
Abhinandan: I can't, yeah. I'm sure Manisha would have kind of disagreed, but I agree.
Jayashree: Too bad, [01:41:00] Manisha. You ain't here. That's what happens when you miss.
Shardool: French are very militant about it. You cannot be militant in imposing any value.
Abhinandan: Right.
Jayashree: Tanya has said. Tanya has breached the
Abhinandan: word count, so we will leave hers for when we are doing the consolidated. Rule is rule. Yes.
Jayashree: Rule is rule. Done. 165
Abhinandan: Tanya. So your mail will be read, but when we do the consolidated mails later.
Jayashree: Okay. So then next is Rohan. Yeah. So Rohan says I was intrigued by what Mr.
Kirpal said in the Hafta Extra episode regarding how watching and reading news all the time is draining and I don't intend to use the term loosely depressing. As journalists, I'm assuming all of you must be reading a lot of news. I want to know what you do to stay positive and hopeful. I have four subscriptions currently.
Newslaundry, TNM, NYT, and Le Monde. I spend a fair bit of time every week reading the news. I love consuming it. But I also relate a lot to what Mr. Kirpal said. It's truly so depressing. What do all of you do to take a break?
Abhinandan: What do you do, uh, Jessie? You want to answer first?
Jayashree: I [01:42:00] read. I read a lot. I mean, I was always a reader, then I stopped being a reader for a long time because I started watching too many shows.
-: And
Jayashree: then I somehow wandered my way back into it like seven years ago and it's just, it's how I, it's like how I, it helps my mind shut down. And like, I read a lot of violent stuff also, but it's just. That's how she feels. So you
Abhinandan: know where, which, whichever side of the street you see Jayshree walking, you know, you've got to cross.
But
Jayashree: if there is a murder, I, I think I can solve it. I've
Raman: read
Jayashree: enough about
Raman: it.
Abhinandan: Okay, great. Ramans, how, how do you remain de stressed consuming so much news? I
Raman: just need to step out of Delhi.
Abhinandan: And you're fine.
Raman: And, and do not read at all. Do not read at all. Uh, yes. Listening, podcast, uh, that's also
Abhinandan: news then
Raman: mostly health podcast, which is pure science, pure science.
I mean, these guys are from Stanford, Harvard. MIT, uh, with 50 years of experience. You don't listen
Abhinandan: to, [01:43:00] uh, Swami Balkishan. No, no. He's on, he's giving us gyan on radio every day. That's the news though. No, no, no. Sorry, sir's health. If he's not listening to Ramdev and Balkishan, how will he run as fast as a horse?
Then he's not in. Sorry, sir.
Raman: So, they have 50. 50 years of experience in, uh, and mostly, uh, I mean, they, they practice, they're practicing doctors as well as they are into R and D. So, uh, fascinating. I mean, and, and they are discussing, you know, articles. I, I sometime, uh, read those articles also, which have published in, uh, you know, very prestigious journals like nature.
So, so I do that. Uh, but, uh, yes, I don't want to be near the newspapers. Right, and I don't want to be near the, the news TV news
Abhinandan: at all at that time. Stopped watching. How about you, char? What do you do? Do you consume that much news? Because you do. Okay. You do. I
Shardool: was a news junkie, which is why I came here.
But the point is that [01:44:00] I used to do a lot of things like giving, which, you know, but I have stopped all of it because I felt like it's becoming too consumerist. So I have picked up, I abandoned projects. Earlier. So I am trying to learn a new language and reading economics and have again, picked up flute because I abandoned it.
So yeah, that's my third instrument. I know two already. So yeah. And like I bought this iPad to practice and writing poetry. So these are abandoned projects which are always in limbo, writing poetry, learning music and
Abhinandan: I play football. I go to the gym. I do, uh, exercises, but not yoga type exercise that completely destroy your body.
So that is when you can't think of anything other than your lungs burning. So the nature of my exercises are intense. And that really relaxes me.
Jayashree: Right. Next email is from Manan who says, I just saw the extra episode and people criticize Manisha for anti colonialist views. I absolutely support her on this with a slight change.[01:45:00]
White countries can be divided into those who benefited from colonization and those who are the victims, like Ireland. But I agree colonizers must be hated against for the simple reason that they don't see their mistake. They don't teach their new generations about those mistakes. Case in point, you talk to any German about World War II or related stuff, their face will show shame.
But no Brit ever acknowledges the kind of devastation their ancestors brought on more than half of the world population. We have the same problem in India when upper castes do the same thing when it comes to casteism.
Abhinandan: That's a very good observation by Manan. I agree with Manan.
Shardool: Manisha about this?
Abhinandan: Many.
Me.
Shardool: I hate Safaidi ki Chamkar.
Abhinandan: Oh dear. You're also racist. Racist. Yes.
Jayashree: There's no such thing as anti racism. Sorry. Next email is from Vakula who says, Hi team, in reference to episode 525 where the Vicodin row was discussed, I'm attaching a judgement by Justice G. R. Swaminathan of the Madras High Court. I think I was talking about it.
It was held therein that the very filing of the impugned FIR against the cartoonist was [01:46:00] absurd and an abuse of the legal process. It's a very interesting read. I can only hope Jayshree's case comes before him. Rakshitha's case, I think. Okay. I think he means the sanitary panel case will come before the same.
Yeah, it would be great
Abhinandan: also. But in the meantime, that, um, Tamil, uh, uh, magazines websites and blocked again, right?
Jayashree: No, it's stayed blocked now for, it's been what, from the 15th, it's been 13
Abhinandan: days. Yeah. Viktan. Viktan. Right.
Jayashree: Shivam says hi on the appointment of Sehni and the like. It's good on one hand, since it gives chances to non politically aligned families.
At the same time, given our dear leader's image, it raises the question on whether it's done to centralize power at the top. These guys don't have a following to be able to take a stand and go against party directives. Whereas previous leaders like Shivraj and Vasundhara were leaders in themselves who are capable of demanding what the state needs.
What do you guys think? Oh, I also, you're right. He's right.
Abhinandan: It's
Raman: exactly that. The three [01:47:00] bureaucrats, uh, to one has become the personal secretary, uh, advisor to the CM and the two, the secretary, uh, of the CM, all three have been drawn from the central, uh, yeah, Shivam,
Abhinandan: this is, uh, I think now pretty much acknowledged about Mr.
Modi. He only puts people in, uh, chief position who don't have their own, uh, you know, voter base because. If rumor is to be believed and I believe it that the, his friction with, uh, the UP chief minister, when he became kind of eroded his power, absolute power there a little bit. So he doesn't like strong leaders, leading states.
Jayashree: Yeah. Uh, Shivam also says, I want to appreciate the Manosphere articles and related work by News Minute. I'm a few months short of turning 25. I see this culture everywhere. One dare not speak against it. Otherwise you're a lefty woke and whatnot. Much appreciated. Thanks, Shivam. And finally, Sunil, who says, Dear Abhinandan ji, I am a regular subscriber of News Laundry and News Minute.
I watch [01:48:00] Hafta and South Central regularly. I'm happy to see discussions without hidden strings and ads. I request you to kindly discuss the serious issue of Employees Provident Fund Organisation not paying a liquid pension to lakhs of retirees despite a Supreme Court judgment of November 2022. Till date, they've only cleared about 1 percent of the pending cases.
This is two and a quarter years after the Supreme Court judgment. Thank you. I wish you more growth for independent, I wish more growth for independent ad free news organizations like yours.
Abhinandan: Thanks, Sunil. Actually, this is another audit we should do. This will be a long term thing, but we definitely will put it on our list of long term projects that we do because this whole thing of, you know, the employee problem fund, it is, you hear so many anecdotal cases of people defaulting on this.
Let's just see what is the scale of the default on this. It may be significant.
Raman: We'll do that.
Abhinandan: On that note, let's get our recommendation for the week. But I'm going to request our producer to flash this QR code once again to contribute to a new NLCNR project, uh, on police [01:49:00] excesses. Let's do an audit of the worst performing states and see where it takes us.
Yes, let's get the recommendations. Jesh, you want to go first?
Jayashree: Yeah, my, I have three recommendations. The first is an essay in the New Yorker. It was written by this journalist who attended the trial of the men who raped Giselle Pellicott in France. So, um, generally she talks about how, you know, the wives of the accused They were asked about their husband's sexuality, they were asked to explain why they think he looked for a relationship outside.
So even in this, this sort of trial that has been covered like no other, the kind of questions these women were asked. Also, she talks about the chat room that this man used to, that Giselle Palcourt's husband used to get in touch with all the men who would eventually rape her. So the judges called it a dating site, but I mean, it's a series of anonymous chat rooms devoted to specific topics.
So she writes about the kind of man who would be in those chat rooms, why this case turned out the way it did. It's a very interesting essay, it's called, um, The Chat Room Behind the Pellicote Rape Trial. My [01:50:00] second recommendation is a book, I don't know if I've recommended Tana French before, but I actually love her.
It's very gritty, Irish, murder, police, procedural, crime fiction sort of books. This book is a bit of an outlier. It's also like an intimate portrait of a family, a house, and a crime. It's called The Witch Elm, and I loved it. And I'm recommending a show. It's a five part miniseries on Geo Hotstar. I will say Geo Hotstar is absolute shit.
They have ruined Hotstar entirely. I didn't even think that was possible, but what to do? So in, um, the 1980s, there was this devastating, a Pan Am flight crashed. It killed 259 passengers and crew and a crash in this tiny isolated place in Scotland called Lockerbie. And it began this really big thing, like there was a big investigation what happened and then they arrested, um, I think a couple of Libyan people saying that they had masterminded the entire thing.
Fascinatingly, the father of one of the victims, he, Follow through with this case his entire life to, he's still alive, to bring justice to his daughter [01:51:00] who was killed. He also made sure to campaign for one of the men who was arrested saying that he was innocent and he needs to be let go. So it's a very interesting story.
It's also very political. The miniseries is called Lockerbie, a search for truth. It's also stars Colin Firth. So if that is exciting to you, please watch it.
Raman: All
Abhinandan: right. Raman Sir?
Raman: I have two recommendations. One is Shobhra Gupta in Indian Express this Sunday, the Sunday magazine, I, she wrote an article called at home in her world, which is the profile of.
Very good actress. In fact, Kani
-: Kusruti.
Raman: She has acted in a few movies, a couple of movies I've seen, and I'm really impressed. I mean, after Smita Patil
Abhinandan: and
Raman: Shubhana, this woman has really. So she has written it so beautifully. Shubra goes [01:52:00] to, you know, her place in Goa and she profiles her. So very worth reading.
And second is, uh, just for, uh, uh, food for thought. I think. We should read Prime Minister Narendra Modi's article, which I'm, I'm sure must have published, uh, in all the newspapers and vernacular or English everywhere because the kind of reach that our Prime Minister has. So it must have. And, uh, the food for thought is, he, uh, he says that we, with this Mahakam, uh, you know, more than, uh, 60 crore people or 70 crore people who had gone to Mahakam, we have entered into a new era.
So, uh, if you think that by invoking past, uh, We enter, uh, we have entered a new era, so it's just a food for thought, uh, Prime Minister. [01:53:00]
Abhinandan: Although the Railway Minister, Ashwini Vaishnav, I think yesterday gave a press conference, not press conference, that he said that they ran special trains for the Kumbh for a month, where about 4.
6 crore people traveled on those trains. So let's say double those amount traveled on other normal trains, we'll take it to four threes or 12 crore.
Song: If
Abhinandan: 55 or 60 crore people landed up, the others walked, went by bus.
Shardool: Cause
Abhinandan: that's a lot of people who have not taken trains. And if those many people can afford to fly in our country or drive.
I mean, I don't know. The numbers didn't add up to me. Yeah,
Jayashree: but also every single time they tell us the number of people, it sort of goes up by 5 crores, like, casually, like, yeah.
Abhinandan: Yes, your recommendations?
Jayashree: So
Shardool: I was thinking about giving a serious one and then Gene Hackman died this week. So I was thinking about another movie, but we spoke about Wapo and Sailavi.
So the first recommendation is there was a time [01:54:00] when Washington Post used to do work. It's in my opinion, the second best journalistic movie of all time, which is. It's Robert Redford. And I forget the name of the other guy, Dustin Hoffman. Dustin Hoffman. Yes. All the president's men about Watergate, um, break in and its reportage.
The second one is I'm reading about economics. So I'm finding new things. So this is a rehash from last week's Charcha, if anybody has an objection. The book's name is The Economic Growth Engine, how energy and work drive material prosperity. It's by Robert U. Ayers and Benjamin Warr. And it sort of links how the dependency on fossil fuels has driven.
And now the society has become addicted to it. You cannot be sure of the same efficiency, which was the story of past two centuries. It's a very good book. The third one is again a rehash, but like I missed the Valentine day. So it's a 1976 small novel from [01:55:00] Ela Chandra Joshi, It's a very beautiful thing and it's the push and pull of him.
She writes beautifully. Like she's a very famous one, but this book is a fictitious one, but the push and pull of internal emotions when you are in relationship and dealing with other people, it's very good book. Please read it.
Abhinandan: So I have three recommendations with the markets crashing and what's happening.
It's a. 25 minute podcast, the rise and fall of long term capital management. It's one of the most successful funds that gave insane returns until it completely went bankrupt and almost sank the entire US economy. Um, it's good to revisit such that success is short lived, uh, and as I don't know whose quote this is, but markets can remain.
Irrational longer than you can remain solvent. Yes. Uh, the second is a podcast, which I found fascinating, which is BBC global story. The Bolsonaro, is it all over for Trump of the tropics? It's, it shows the contrast of how us dealt with Trump [01:56:00] and how Brazil has dealt with Bolsonaro. And I wonder, you know, why the reason is.
And finally, next week, I highly recommend you adjust your sleeping schedule because on the 5th of March real Madrid plays athletic Madrid. And on 6th of March bind plays Leverkusen. So, uh, those are two matches I'm going to readjust my sleeping pattern next week. I
Jayashree: think, I think we should shut the office.
Abhinandan: So on that note, as promised, we shall leave you with old McDonald had a farm in Sanskrit by Jayshree. Take it away.
Jayashree: Absolutely not. I will never return to this show again. Goodbye.
Abhinandan: Okay. Then we leave you with a Tamil song, which I loved from a film that I loved even more. Mandela. Have a fantastic weekend.
Pay to keep news free. Thank you, Raman sir. Shardul. Jayshree. Naresh, our wonderful sound recordist. Thank [01:57:00] you, Priyani, our wonderful producer and our younger junior producer, Ashish, who seems to have vanished. Thank him too. And thank you all for supporting News Laundry. Please keep your support coming in.
Let's make us bigger, better and pay to keep news free and show the billionaires we don't need them to run news. You guys run your Wedding. Tam. Mm-hmm . We run news. Bye-bye.
Raman: Thank you.[01:58:00]
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