This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal and Anand Vardhan are joined by Supreme Court advocate Mihira Sood and journalist Govindraj Ethiraj.
The panel discusses the implementation of the Uniform Civil Code in Uttarakhand. Mihira says, “There are many peculiarities of the law, but the strangest is that registration of live-in relationships is more cumbersome than a marriage…The penalty for not registering a marriage is nothing, but the penalty for not registering a live-in relationship can be imprisonment.”
Commenting on the backlash to inter-faith relationships in the state in the recent past, Manisha adds, “What we know from newspaper reports is that registrations will be scrutinised by the Bajrang Dal…What the Uttarakhand government wants to do here is just police people who are living together.”
On the new budget announced for 2025-26, Govindraj says there’s “nothing really landmark” in the budget but the “benefits offered to the middle class are a good thing”. “It is correcting a problem of the recent past – the pressure of inflation on households and incomes not growing as they did before,” he says.
The panel also discusses the continuing depreciation of the rupee against the dollar, and the ‘unease’ of doing business in India.
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Hafta letters: Trump’s promises, understanding spirituality, India’s middle class
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Song: Happy birthday
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements
00:02:12 - Headlines
00:13:37 - Uniform Civil Code
00:44:08 - ‘Unease’ of doing business
00:49:57 - Budget
01:11:05 - Depreciation of the Rupee
01:23:27- Letters
01:45:00 - Recommendations
References
What Uttarakhand's uniform civil code gets wrong
Live in fear : Uniform Patriarchal Code
Jailed for doing business by ORF
Recommendations
Mihira
Govindraj
Sacred Waters by Stephen Alter
Manisha
Basant Kumar’s video report on Mahakumbh deaths
Exclusive: Hospital, police records suggest at least 79 deaths in Kumbh stampede
Raman
Basant Kumar’s video report on Mahakumbh deaths
Exclusive: Hospital, police records suggest at least 79 deaths in Kumbh stampede
Trump wants to show the world who is boss by Pratap Bhanu Mehta
Budget 2025’s tax cuts for middle class will boost consumption many times over
Budget tax cuts won’t cut it. It’s majority’s real incomes that drive consumption
Anand
Overdeveloped State by Hamza Alavi
Nehru's First Recruits: The Diplomats Who Built Independent India's Foreign Policy
Abhinandan
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Ashish Anand, edited by Hassan Bilal.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry Podcast. And you're listening to NL Hafta.
Abhinandan: Welcome
to a very special episode of Hafta. Which we are recording on the 7th of Feb at 10. 30 in the morning, which also is News Laundry's 13th birthday. So happy birthday to everybody. Happy birthday. Yes, News Laundry's 13th today. Um, we have a special offer on our 13th birthday. birthday, which is that you can scan this QR code that is appearing on your screens right now.
And if you're not watching this on the screen, it'll be in the show notes, uh, in whichever podcast platform you're watching it on. It is a VR13 offer. If you're a subscriber, you can gift our annual subscription with a flat 1300 rupee discount to whatever friend, relative of your choice. I think it's a fantastic gift to give because then you're gifting two people, you're [00:01:00] gifting them and you.
Giving us a gift on your
Manisha: valentine's since valentine is coming.
Abhinandan: Yes. You can give to a valentine's subscription as well. And if you're not a subscriber, you can give to yourself a subscription and that's also give to us. This offer is only till the 9th of Feb. Uh, and it's only available to the first hundred subscribers.
Manisha: So new subscribers also get 1300. Yes. New
Abhinandan: subscribers also get 1300 off. So, yeah. Uh, let me introduce the panel today, uh, in the studio, Anand Vardhan, our legal constitutional expert in training. Manisha Pandey.
Manisha: Hello.
Abhinandan: Raman Kirpal.
Manisha: Hello. And
Abhinandan: joining us on a video call is Mehira Sood, who's been on Hafta before.
Welcome Mehira.
-: Hi.
Abhinandan: How are you? Very well. Thank you for joining us. How are you? Good to be here. Okay. Before, um, we continue with the discussion, I will Nibhaw the Aupcharikta of introducing Mehira. So Mehira Sood is a senior advocate of the Supreme Court of India. She's a researcher specializing in women's rights and juvenile rights as [00:02:00] well.
And juvenile rights. And you can, uh, in the link, there are two of her latest pieces on the Uniform Civil Code, which we, which we shall discuss in today's hafta. And before we go into the headlines, we'll have one more guest joining us later in the show. Govind Rajyathiraj will be talking about the budget and other budget and economic things.
Manisha, let's get the headlines.
Manisha: A U. S. military aircraft carrying 104 deported Indian citizens landed in Amritsar Airport this week. This triggered a fury over the manner of their return. The immigrants were handcuffed and their legs shackled during the day long flight. The U. S. Border Patrol chief also released a video calling them illegal aliens.
And the foreign minister S. J. Shankar in the sunset said that This is, you know, in convention. They were shackled in keeping with past procedure and they're engaging, India is engaging with the US to ensure that none of the deportees are mistreated. The opposition was basically asking them questions on why they were treated the way they were.
Abhinandan: And of course, questions were [00:03:00] asked in parliament. And before we get to that, I just wanted to add. That, um, very good Mr. Jayashankar said this standard operating procedure, but each time Mr. Jayashankar gets so outraged because there's one article in a New York Times or one, you know, reporter in the US has said something and he, the minister of external affairs of India or some of his bureaucrats decide to hold a press conference.
That is also conventional journalism.
S Jaishankar: I get a lot of these noises from the Western press and if they criticize our democracy, it's not because they lack information. It is because they think they're also political players in our election. That is the reason. So, I think it's time today that we disabuse them.
And the best way that we do that, as I said, is by confidence. It is by confidence, it is by standing up to these kinds of [00:04:00] attacks and criticisms and rankings and reports, you know, because they will question everything. You know, they will question your election system, your EVM, your election commission. As I said, even the weather.
Abhinandan: That's not unusual. But if you think that is something that is an assault on India because Mr. Modi, our government has been criticized, this is a biggest assault on Indian pride, according to me. I was disgraceful. Was how. Most of the primetime anchors were defending this to make the government look good.
Whereas I think one tweet by an opposition party is an insult to the country. But this is not an insult to the country. And if you go by today's report on the express, even women and children. Yeah, women
Manisha: and children is not conventional.
Abhinandan: So, uh, but very brave. Modi ji, very brave. Jai shakar. SOP dekha diya.
Journalism ka bhi SOP hota hai. Usko bhi zara jhelna seekh lo. Toh aapke liye bhi accha ho jayega aur journalism ke liye bhi accha ho jayega. Gyaan kam pela karo.
Raman: There's a rumor. Uh, if you see the trajectory of the plane, you know how [00:05:00] it is coming, entering India. So it first goes to Bombay, then comes Gujarat.
So the rumor is, first they wanted to, uh, you know, fly down at my, uh, land at, uh, in Gujarat. But, uh. The Modi government wanted it to land in some non VJP ruled state. And so that is how it landed in Amritsar. No, also,
Abhinandan: it has Come on. Yeah. Yeah, you see. No, no, today's tweet, today's tweet also, uh, let me show you who has tweeted this.
I think Pargat Singh has tweeted. Pargat Singh has tweeted and I don't think this is an unreasonable Uh, you know, uh, too much
Manisha: credit
Raman: for, no, but, but a moment is coming first. Gujarat is coming.
Abhinandan: No, no. Here's what Pargat Singh says. When Punjab demands international flights, permissions are granted only to Delhi airports to deny Punjab economic benefits.
But when it comes to running a defamation narrative, US deportation flight lands in Punjab, even though most deportees are from Gujarat and Haryana. Punjab has 30, 33 from Gujarat, 33 from [00:06:00] Haryana, but the flight came to Amritsar, but otherwise international flights, no come to Delhi. I mean, they
Manisha: could have actually just come to Delhi and then from here you do your local
Abhinandan: whatever.
I don't think it's at all an unreasonable theory at all.
Manisha: Polling for 70 member Delhi Vidhan Sabha was held on February 5th with a turnout of 60%, the votes will be counted as the show goes out. So actually when the show would be out, the results for the Delhi election would be out. Majority of the exit polls are of course predicting a BJP win.
There are about two, I think, exit pollsters who give an R per sweep. I thought it was also very interesting that the last Two days, uh, everyone from Amit Shah, Radhnath Singh were campaigning in the Delhi election. And, uh, SJ Shankar also gave a speech that how he's embarrassed of Delhi when he goes out.
He's embarrassed of the fact that this is what the national capital looks like. That is a bit much. I mean, the foreign minister must have better things to do than campaign for the Delhi assembly. Glorified municipality that it is.
Raman: This election was, uh, Kind of a prestige [00:07:00] battle for, for the BJP. It was, it wasn't fought on the equal footing.
Okay. Uh, I, I personally feel this is my opinion. It wasn't fought on the equal footing. If you see ever since this LG was brought in, I think he is running a kind of campaign. against this government. The people were put in the jail. I mean, we don't still don't know what the merits of, I mean, if you look at the case and the charge sheets so far that have been filed, they don't have any material evidence.
Okay. But these leaders were kept behind the bar for, for such a long time. And And the government was prevented at every step to carry out their work. So I don't know, it was such a chaotic affairs. And, uh, come, let, let the BJP come. Let us see. I mean, how many times. Well, they have promised to fix pollution.
LG is going to come up with, uh, you know, uh, he's going to come up with the [00:08:00] press note every day. And if
Manisha: BJP comes to power, we have to, now there's just no excuse for pollution. Not that there, I mean, I always felt that this was a union ministry, environment ministry task, but if
Raman: they come, they better fix the Delhi pollution.
Let us see what kind of Ram Rajya we are going to have. But I think
Manisha: we can discuss Delhi elections in the next thing, but, uh, the Jailing of Kejriwal also poses a central question to ARP in the sense that when Hemant Soren goes to jail, there is a tribal identity that can be invoked and that benefits you in elections.
Kejriwal doesn't, when you, when you play the politics of school and whatever, you know, roads and infrastructure, there is identity politics that you lose out on some of the benefits of identity politics. Kejriwal going to jail was not seen as an attack by anyone. Okay. The budget was announced on February 1st in a major policy change.
The income tax exemption was increased to 12 lakh per annum. The finance minister also announced a slew of development initiatives for election bound Bihar, including a Makhana board and new airports. Makhana is the black [00:09:00] gold of, no, at least it should just be gold. It should be white gold, white gold of Bihar.
They manufacture, uh,
Abhinandan: Fox nut. Yeah.
Manisha: It's a huge. Oh, really? Yeah. Fox nut. Which has been like, now repackaged as protein pops and I don't know what all, but it is sold for 300
Abhinandan: rupees. Diabetes patients eat it as a prescribed snack.
Manisha: Yeah, yeah, it's all the rage and Bihar produces it. So, are you happy? The slew of announcements for Bihar.
Anand: Oh, I have written on it.
Manisha: You may, you may. Get into Makhana farming. Okay, continuing with the rupee tumble over the past few months, the rupee fell by 67 paisa to hit a record low of 87. 29 against the US dollar. This was after a day Donald Trump announced tariffs on Canada, Mexico, and China.
Abhinandan: And he withdrew the ones, not withdrew, but delayed the ones on Canada and Mexico.
No, he held it for a month. He held it for a month. But we'll have Govindraj Yathiraj talk a little more about this later in the show.
Manisha: Meanwhile, um, the Congress leader and leader [00:10:00] of opposition, Rahul Gandhi, uh, gave a speech in parliament. He spoke about government's Make in India initiatives, how China has, you know, beat us in terms of manufacturing and organizing of production and also its military prowess.
And he said the reason China is sitting inside the country is because Make in India has failed. I thought this was a very different speech. that Rahul Gandhi gave from his earlier interventions. There's very little of Adani, Ambani. There's very little of Sood Bhut Sarkar. And I think the first half really lays out a vision that he tried to put forward.
May agree, disagree with it, but it was very specific.
Raman: He
Manisha: spoke on specifics of what we need to do in terms of growth economy.
Raman: But PM response was, was, uh, it was also very interested. He caught it from a book, you know, written by a CIA, some CIA person where, where, uh, you know, the Nehru had written letters to Kennedy a couple of times and, and, and he caught it that book.
And he said, key, everybody should read that book. And he also, I think [00:11:00] even a prime minister's team is working very hard to, you know, pick out such instances where you can, but also the whole thing of
Abhinandan: attempting to put Hindu versus Nehru that it was the Nehru family. It ruined the Indian economy and Hindu got defamed.
But
Manisha: how? Nehru got a battered economy. I mean, you can't really relate.
Raman: That doesn't matter. There's no
Manisha: Manmohan's government. Like, that's the best. He took
Raman: it from the British. I thought the
Manisha: Rajiv Gandhi example also that Rahul gave was interesting. On information technology, that we saw, uh, you know, what computers could hold for us.
While Atal Bihari was saying that it'll ruin That was a good speech, I think, overall. Days after implementation of the Uniform Civil Code in Uttarakhand, Gujarat government appointed a five member committee to prepare a draft UCC for the state. So, Gujarat is next, I guess. Seven state governments, Pradesh and Jammu and Kashmir passed a joint resolution demanding the withdrawal of the University Grants [00:12:00] Commission's draft regulations.
So we shall discuss this next hafta because it's an interesting debate that affects universities. Supreme Court questioned Tamil Nadu Governor R. N. Ravi's decision to withhold assent to some bills presented to him by state legislature and said he seems to have adopted his own procedure. Telangana Chief Minister Revanth Reddy tabled the state's caste survey stating that the Congress had fulfilled its election promise.
You can catch South Central this week where we discuss. Um, what, how superfluous this whole cast census that they've put. And Manisha is on this week. I'm on this week and we have a fairly lengthy debate, discussion on this. In a press conference today, the RBI cut the repo rate 25 basis point to 6. 25%.
This is the first rate cut initiated by the RBI in five years. And he was addressing a press conference or addressing the nation. I mean, I don't see if there was a press there. Protestors vandalized and set fire to the residence of Bangladesh's founder Sheikh [00:13:00] Mujibur Rahman while his daughter deposed Prime Minister Sheikh Haseena was giving an online speech.
Abhinandan: Who would have
Manisha: thought, huh? Mujibur Rahman's
Abhinandan: Imagine, to him become Crazy! But Prime Minister Sheikh Haseena said, uh, you cannot rewrite history. And um Many of the VCs, VCs of Indian universities said, hold my lassi, we'll show you how it's done.
Manisha: Donald Trump signed an executive order on Wednesday to ban transgender athletes from competing in girls and women's sports.
Abhinandan: He's really on a, on a trip, man. The man is, I'm convinced the man is insane. And Elon Musk is even more insane. Just, I mean, even if you say that policy wise, it's not that different, just the way they conduct themselves, man.
Manisha: Yeah, it's like everyone's like outta a comic book character, man. It's just really strange.
It's really, really strange. Let's
Abhinandan: get to the UCC right Mihi. So, uh, you, your two pieces are titled in the Times Even Day What Hunts Uniform Civil Code [00:14:00] Gets wrong, and the second is live in fear, uniform patriarchal code. And we've already seen Wild. You're supposed to, I mean, you can explain to our audience what this demands and if you're living in, you have to do some Argy and there was one very funny sanitary panels, uh, you know, comic strip she had done, uh, she does fantastic panels, sanitary panels, uh, and she has that.
Couple go on a date and have you the DigiFuck app. First, you have to download the DigiFuck app before you decide to. So it's a bit of a joke. But before you tell us the technicalities and the glaring problems with the Uniform Civil Code, this itself is a misnomer, the Uniform Civil Code, because it is not.
It isn't uniform because even UCC in various states and various tribal communities, you cannot have uniformity anyway.
Manisha: Yeah, it doesn't apply to tribals in Uttarakhand, for example, which is 2%, 3 percent of the population.
Abhinandan: Or like Article 370 hata diya, lekin Article 371 [00:15:00] hata ne ki nahi aukaad Modi shah ki.
So, because that applies to the Northeast and they'll, they will not take that lying down. So, yeah. It also
Mihira Sood: applies only to heterosexual couples. So, that's again, you know, uh, something that detracts from it really. Um, being uniform, um, for the whole of India or even the whole of a particular state. Um, and then of course, there may be, uh, situations where, I mean, the, the, the code itself contains a particularly odd, one of the many particularly odd, um, features where it says even people ordinarily, um, you know, domiciled in the state of Uttarakhand, but living elsewhere are required to do this.
Where is the jurisdiction of the state of Uttarakhand to monitor live in relationships in other states? You
-: know,
Mihira Sood: and what if the person is in a live in relationship with somebody who is not from the state of Uttarakhand?
Abhinandan: Right.
Mihira Sood: How can this even be enforced?
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Mihira Sood: Um, so there are many [00:16:00] peculiarities with the law.
Um, and of course the, I think the strangest, the strangest aspect of it is that it is a more cumbersome registration procedure and a more cumbersome bureaucratic procedure than marriage. when it is meant to be exactly the opposite. That's the whole reason people opt for it.
Abhinandan: You
Mihira Sood: know, for, for whatever reason, uh, whatever personal reasons they have to choose it, they choose it because it is something that is not Um, you know, uh, legally regulated,
Abhinandan: um,
Mihira Sood: and legally scrutinized like marriage, you know, it could be because, you know, maybe their parents don't approve.
Um, it could be because marriage carries a religious connotation that, you know, live in relationships don't, and that may mean something to a couple, you know, they may not be something that they don't want to get into without, you know, um, their parents and family are those blessings. It may be because, um, you know.
[00:17:00] Uh, maybe, uh, one of them, uh, maybe they don't believe in the institution of marriage. It may be for any number of reasons, or it may be because, you know, our marriage laws, we take the Hindu marriage act, for example, that says, um, uh, a woman can, a man can only get married when he is turns 21. So a woman can get married when she's 18.
So it may be that the man is younger than 21 and would prefer to be in a live in relationship. Or it may just be that they want to kind of test the waters before getting married. Whatever the reason, the point is they want something that is less regulated and less legal than a
Abhinandan: live in, than a marriage.
And if they part ways, then they have to go for an annulment of live in? What like, what is the
Mihira Sood: process? I mean, it's literally like saying you have to. There is no concept of a live in relationship under this code, basically. It's essentially like a civil union.
Abhinandan: So, so when you
Mihira Sood: And both times you have to, you have [00:18:00] to, you have to register it.
You have to send a notice of termination. Both times you have to pay a fee also.
Manisha: So, you know, on the face of it You don't
Mihira Sood: have to do when you're getting married and the penalty for not doing, uh, for not registering your marriage is nothing. But the penalty for not registering a live in relationship can be imprisonment.
Raman: Wow. SDM can summon the couple anytime they want.
Mihira Sood: Yeah.
Raman: Yeah.
Mihira Sood: Can summon the couple.
Anytime. Basically has to, has to exit, uh, sort of, um, exercise the, the powers of a judge has to kind of, you know, uh, apply his mind as a, to an almost judicial inquiry as to whether or not there is free consent and whether or not, you know, this is, um, you know, this is. This is really.
Abhinandan: And what is the stated objective of this safety for the woman?
That's the stated objective.
Mihira Sood: That is the stated objective. First of all, it's really odd because the stated stated objective of any uniform civil code [00:19:00] should first and foremost be, um, you know, to bring about a secular code that is non religious. Right. Um, that can apply to parties across religions, whether they are in, you know, an interfaith relationship or anything like that.
Like your special marriage act is somewhat not, not a great model, but somewhat of a model of a, um, a secular, uh, kind of, uh, uh, marriage bill, marriage code. This doesn't have any pretense at secularism. Uh, so that in itself really makes one wonder what is the purpose. Um, because throughout we've been told that the idea, the objective of a uniform civil code is to bring about, to achieve this ideal of secularism and do away with personal laws.
Abhinandan: Now, I want to move on to other aspects of the code as well. Have you, I mean, have you read the full thing or are you just focusing on this aspect of it?
Mihira Sood: No, no. [00:20:00] I mean, I've read the full thing. I've read the full thing, but the full thing is broadly a reproduction of Hindu law, which was reformed once in the 1950s and once in the early 2000s to make it more women friendly.
Um, but it is broadly a reproduction of the Hindu code, Hindu family code. I see. Manisha, you were saying something. So
Manisha: I was saying that on the face of it, the logic for this is that the live in, you know, registering your live in is to basically give protection to people in a live in relationship and give them some benefits of marriage and countries like, say, France has something like Pax, which is a civil partnership.
It's easier to break than a marriage, less complicated, but you get some of the benefits of a marriage. So for example, if I'm in a live in relationship, I want to kind of formalize, we get tax benefits, social security benefits, inheritance rights. So that. Is to tell you that, okay, you're together and you can have some benefits of what [00:21:00] you would in a formal marriage, which makes sense, but it's optional.
You can't say everyone need not opt for a civil partnership. You can go for a marriage.
Mihira Sood: Yeah. I mean, there's two, two things I want to talk about in that context. One is that our Supreme court, you know, as far back as, you know, at least the 1970s. has already recognized all these rights for live in partners.
I see. You know, um, inheritance rights, um, uh, legitimacy of children, uh, maintenance and alimony rights in case of a split in the relationship.
Abhinandan: Sorry, Meheratu, is it only for a heterosexual couple? I mean, something related, but, uh, it was major news in Delhi papers, at least of the Rohit Bal who died recently, who has a huge estate.
He has two floors in defense [00:22:00] colony, a factory, et cetera. And his, a partner who is male because Rohit was out, uh, and publicly gay, uh, there is some tussle happening with the family and the inheritance. So
Mihira Sood: I'm not very sure of those details. To be honest, I don't know what his will. No, no. But I'm saying
Abhinandan: is this, does it automatically apply only to, uh, uh, heterosexual couples or same sex as well?
Mihira Sood: Um, it's not an, see all of these cases, I mean, how does the Supreme Court decide a particular case? A dispute is brought to it. Um, in Rohit Bal's case, I don't know, uh, if, uh, how, see the manner of applying a precedent, the manner of applying a Supreme Court judgment to one's individual case, um, is not as that straightforward because.
There is an individual dispute. One will, uh, you know, try to sort it out in inter alia by using these Supreme Court judgments and, you know, uh, [00:23:00] showing that these rights are recognized because nobody wants to litigate. However, the biggest weight of a Supreme Court judgment is to another court. So ordinarily you would then go to a court where you would then produce these precedents and say, look.
So what you're saying is, so there is
Abhinandan: precedence of same sex couples getting those benefits even in live in. So the Supreme Court has ruled in that fashion. But
Mihira Sood: what I'd say is that. No, no. I was saying, as far as same sex couples go, I'm not sure. I'm not aware of any particular cases.
Abhinandan: Sorry, my mistake. My, uh, as in heterosexual couples.
Mihira Sood: Yes. Okay. Got it. Heterosexual couples, any number of cases, there are so many cases where, uh, you know, um. Normally what happens is family members will say this person is not entitled. She was not his wife. Um, and you know, that case drags on and ends up in the Supreme Court. There are any number of cases.
Um, you know, I could, um, uh, I think I had mentioned a few in the Times of India article, the most [00:24:00] recent one as well. Um, there was Badri Prasad versus Deputy, uh, Collector, uh, Director of Consolidation in 2010. There was a case that was decided by Justice Markandey Katju, D Velusamy versus D Pachiamma.
There are any number of cases where the court has said it doesn't matter if they were legally married or not. We will, we have to presume that they were married.
Abhinandan: I see.
Mihira Sood: If they were living together for a certain length of time and they have been living in a relationship and that's the important thing in a relationship akin to marriage.
You know, it's not that they are living together as roommates.
Abhinandan: They
Mihira Sood: are holding themselves out as a married couple. Maybe they attend functions as a married couple.
Abhinandan: I mean, they are,
Mihira Sood: they are living as a couple.
Abhinandan: Right, right.
Mihira Sood: And the relationship, it's not been, it's not six months old or one year old. It's been, you know, there for some time.
I see the sense of having Marriages in Europe and all the, I mean, I think if you've been living together for five years, then it is considered a common law [00:25:00] marriage. So maintenance. Um, inheritance, legitimacy of children, protection, um, all manner of protection, not just physical protection, but also economic protection and rights of residents, uh, are recognized specifically under the domestic violence act that talks about domestic relationship.
Abhinandan: And which
Mihira Sood: is not a relationship,
Abhinandan: not marriage. It doesn't say marriage. It says relationship
Mihira Sood: relationship in the nature of marriage.
Abhinandan: Domestic
Mihira Sood: relationship includes various things. Under the law. And specifically it says, including relationships in the nature of marriage. Now in the nature of marriage is not marriage.
And that's what the court has interpreted relationships in the nature of marriage are where a couple is living together as a married couple without being a married couple.
Abhinandan: Right. I just want to go around the panel one second. Manisha, can you finish your thought then Anand. I was just
Manisha: saying that I see the sense of having something between a marriage and a live in where, but it has to be simple, right?
You just have a joint declaration, you go to the [00:26:00] notary and it should not be subject to the SDM. Clearly, if that was the goal, then Uttarakhand could have had something like this. But what we know from newspaper reports is the live in relationships are going to be subject to scrutiny by Bajrang Dal. Who is inter religious?
Muslim boy hai, Hindu girl hai, Hindu girl hai, Muslim boy hai. That's the end goal. So, I mean, while we're discussing the fine aspects of law, what the Uttarakhand government wants to clearly do here is just police get the people who are living together. And you have seen this in a. series of cases now that have happened in Uttarakhand over the past two years of a girl and a boy interfaith, maybe dating, maybe together.
They're seen at a railway station, they're seen at a bus stop and there's this whole town erupts into this whole love jihad thing. We saw that with, you know, when Anmol had gone there. So Increasingly, there is this tendency to police interfaith couples in the public view and label it love jihad. And what this law essentially wants to do is police couples.
But I do see sense [00:27:00] if there was a sensible government, I do see like for modern relationships to have that facility to just register yourself as a live in and have some benefits of a marriage, but not the strict kind of getting in and getting out legal procedure of a marriage.
Abhinandan: Um, have you read the code yet?
Or you've been too busy with your law exams? Anan. Are they over by the way? Yes. Yes. They're, have you waited, have you read it or you have any comments specifically on the u CCC or the ones that, the ones that are proposed in the other states, they haven't made those, uh, draft public here? No. Okay. Draft now wants to Okay.
Right.
Manisha: Have the same thing.
Abhinandan: So have you read it? Have you read the draft or, yes. Okay. You have, okay. So any. comments you have specifically that it's different or is it just more the same and it's more of public of political rhetoric which they want to score points on but significantly there's no real change in in day to day living.
Anand: No, see political rhetoric and execution is not what concerns the law. The law will be legislated in a way that regulates the [00:28:00] relationships how it would be executed what political motives would be assigned to it is a different thing that is not the concern of lawmakers. So that is the concern of the executive.
First the entry five of the concurrent list empowers the state government to legislate in matters of personal law as well as a state assembly as well as the parliament. So Uttarakhand government as the January 2023 judgment of the Supreme Court makes it clear that it is first. Uh, there was also a question of whether Han um, government can go with it.
So Supreme Court made it clear in January, 2023 that it can go with it. Hmm. So, uh, also the, the say, uh, the critical mass of the jurisprudence from the Supreme Court has been in favor of UCC that is well known from. Say not only Shabano, but also Shardula Mudgal case in 1995, also Cointeo [00:29:00] versus Maria Ferreira more recently in 2019.
Supreme Court has batted for UCC. Now the question of, uh, say, uh, there would be rough ages, like Okay. The living relationships say also there are other, uh, problem, problematic areas because I think, uh, living relationships, marriage, and in the social ecosystem of India, marriage is a social work, marriage, marriage, uh, It is a social work in a sense that it has a social ecosystem to back it from families and this once you step outside that, then you need some, say, I will not say extra social, but to say, uh, some kind of impersonal protection.
Let us say state protection. So, uh, and, uh, Uh, we were talking about objectives. The, uh, stated [00:30:00] objective is to see that the, uh, partner and more specifically women is not exploited in the living relationships. That's, that's the stated objective. Uh, I think in its framing, it has rough edges. Also the output of modernity, it may not have, uh, come with the bandwidth to accommodate it.
To date, what are the possibilities that these relationships lend themselves to? So, uh, so, uh, that, um, a more optimistically, we can see it as the thing problems. And once the evolution of. These provisions go into the, say, uh, broader area of social testing, testing on relationships, number of cases. And there would be some, say, Uttarakhand would now be a laboratory of it.
So there would [00:31:00] be some tragic. Cases where this would have very farcical results and theater of the absurd. Hmm. But, uh, that's the fate of these kind of laws to, but
Manisha: just one quick point. Principally it cannot be compulsory. You cannot, you know, you can't make it compulsory for everyone. It should, it has to be an optional thing.
Abhinandan: Yeah. If you feel, I
Raman: think that the line between less legislature and executive has really blurred. So to say, and in modern days, lawmaking is very arbitrary process. This is, uh, so here what executive wants. Becomes the law. So, so the legislature, I mean, more or less follows what executive says, this is one and second, I think the more important thing here is the intent of the way the law has been framed that patriarchal attitude of that the women need production state production.
I mean, whether they want it or not, if you see the crime against women in the state. [00:32:00] So that, I mean, I think they, the state requires more over there instead of making, you know, a law like this. So I think, uh, the intent is the most important thing. No,
Anand: no. Well, law see there, if there is a law that for this offense you have to pay 500, fine.
This is a law, its intention is to punish you for an offense. But, uh, the executive is such that the police would anyway, take a a thousand rupe bribe . Now you don't. You don't have, cannot buy when making law, you cannot take in that into account that police will take a thousand. I think you have to take it.
I mean, I
Abhinandan: don't think anything exists in isolation, but I'll just come back to me here. I've just two quick points I want to make and have a question. One is I think what that kind is a laboratory, not just for UCC, it's a laboratory for a lot of other stuff. My last few visits to Uttarakhand have been alarming the alarming level of.
I grew [00:33:00] up in Dardun. I don't ever remember Dardun being this place, which was so over religious and it was stuffed down our throat. Um, second thing is, I mean, I, to put it very crudely for audience my age who, for whom intellectuals are too much, basically when we were in college, you know, every party we went to, there used to be this group of assholes who no one wanted to hang out with.
Okay. Especially girls. So what they used to do is they used to basically just pick up fights with other people and want to beat them up. RSS, Bajrang Dal are those losers who no one wants to fucking talk to. They, no chick is, they're not going to get any action fucking anytime in their lives. So they just fucking want to go around beating up people because they will fucking get nothing.
And that is actually crudely put the reality of many of these Sangh chief ministers. Uh, that's their maan sikta unki aisi hai. Now, when it comes to UCC to criminalize this, you know, I was listening to a podcast of Govind Raj, who will be joining us later to talk about the budget and, uh, the dollar [00:34:00] collapse.
In India, 38 percent of all compliance, business compliances. Violation of those are criminal offenses, he says, which is very unique in India. Compliance violations are civil offenses. You pay a penalty here, bloody you, which is the ease of doing business, a bit of a joke here. Now, in that sense, the UCC Mehra, uh, well, it's called the Uniform Civil Code.
How many offenses in there are actually criminal and can get you in prison rather than just a fine? And is that In your view, sensible legislation.
Mihira Sood: I would have to go through it with that, uh, from that specific point of view, I admit that's not something I've specifically looked at and it's a very, very long code.
Um, but yes, non registration is something that should certainly not invite a criminal sanction and it doesn't invite any penalty for non registering a marriage also. There's
Abhinandan: no
Mihira Sood: penalty. You're encouraged to register a marriage and that's it. And the only thing that it says is if you don't register it, you [00:35:00] can pay a small fine for registering it belatedly.
Abhinandan: Um,
Mihira Sood: but you know, I just want to, two things I want to, uh, I want to just say in response to the discussion that was happening. One was that, I don't think, as you said, we can't operate in silos. We're all aware of how laws are implemented and what all goes on in the name of implementation. And when we are drafting these laws, we need to keep in mind, how can that be avoided?
You know, so when we're talking about somebody taking this much bribe or this much, we need to keep in mind how can that be avoided and put those checks and balances within the legislation itself. It cannot be that the legislation operates in a vacuum and then you're like, now you people decide, executive will decide how to implement it and judiciary will decide, um, you know, what is to be done in case there's a violation, but we are not going to, uh, you know, um, draft any law that has any inbuilt checks and balances.
It doesn't work that way. [00:36:00] And it should not work that way. And the second thing is that we have to understand one very important thing. This is not just a question of registering a live in relationship like a performer. There is actual permission that has to be sought.
Yeah. So the SDM scrutiny is precisely
Abhinandan: for that.
Mihira Sood: It's not an automatic
Abhinandan: process. So now you don't have to get your parents blessing, you have to get the SDM blessing. The
Manisha: registrar can inform your parents also. Yeah, they can inform your parents and they can check. They can basically check your relationship.
Mihira Sood: What all the registrar is supposed to check? One, they are supposed to check bare legal things like, are you of age? Are you in a um, you know legal? related to each other by certain degrees, like, are you living with your first cousin or something like that? Things that are prohibited under marriage laws.
But two of the more problematic thing, are you already married? Are [00:37:00] you, you know, trying to defraud your first wife or something like that? Or are you already in a registered live in relationship and trying to live in with another? I don't know if somebody were to introduce to them the concept of polyamory, their minds would be blown, I think.
But, um, Now, two things. One is that there is a difference in the age for a live in relationship and age for marriage for women. A woman can get married at 18, but she cannot enter into a live in relationship till she's 21. That's very weird. And that means that if a woman who is capable of getting married, Legally married to a man who is, you know, their relationship is perfectly legal.
They are capable of getting married. But they want to enter into a live in relationship instead. If she is under 21, the registrar has to inform her parents.
Abhinandan: My God.
Mihira Sood: Okay, so there's, I mean, there's absolute infantilization of grown adult women who are legally allowed to live with anybody they want. And so, I mean, legally [00:38:00] means outside of this law.
Abhinandan: Right.
Mihira Sood: So that's one. The second thing is, and this is where the, you know, the target of the sort of bullseye on interfaith couples really comes in because obviously on paper and you know, on the face of it, there's no such thing in the law, but The registrar has to examine and apply his own mind as to whether or not there is actual free consent or has there been any fraud, misrepresentation, et cetera.
And for that, it is not required that the registrar has to only look at what the parties themselves are saying or what the woman herself is saying. Now we know, and this is again, where Knowledge of what happens in society is important in drafting a law. We know that the majority of living relationships, um, happen when parents are not amenable.
And so this is like a workaround until, you know, you can bring your parents [00:39:00] around. Usually it is because it's an inter caste or an inter faith relationship or sometimes it is just objection to a woman having exercised her own choice as opposed to having had an arranged kind of, you know, set up. Um, we also know that there are many, many cases, far too many cases of objections to consensual live in relationships, consensual inter faith, inter caste relationships by a woman's parents.
saying she has been defrauded. She has been misled. He has misrepresented his religious identity. You know, the entire bogey around love jihad, um, you know, that he has lied. He has told her he, this is his name, that this is his community. And now the, so the argument of fraud misrepresentation and lack of free consent weaponized.
Um, into false accusations by a woman's family, and that's where the registrar can really exercise these powers that that's where the mischief can [00:40:00] really lie. And one really needs to look at, because it is not an automatic process of registration and permission seeking. The registrar will send a notice to the police saying you please investigate.
Exactly.
Abhinandan: He has to oversee an investigation because how is he going to come, but coming to how the execution of a law and the legislation is connected, you know, I'll, I'll give you an example of the right to information act, which was a historic act that was passed in the parliament of India. One of the main reasons of RTI existing is there was what you call extortive bribery happening.
Like I have applied for a permission for X, Y, Z, or I have applied for my SCST card or for pension or whatever it is. Someone can sit on it. The assumption is that the process will go through because that person, but since it is so opaque, that's why file notings became a big thing, you know, that who has stopped this file from moving forward.
I can file an RTI that you give me, you give me the reason why I have not got the permission yet, whether it is the permission for a factory or it is my SCST card. Once people are [00:41:00] accountable. So the whole thing was. Because people are expecting bribes, only then will your file move. RTI kind of was a, of course, now the RTI is dead.
Mihira Sood: But that's also one of the reasons why, uh, legislation is resorting to, I mean, I maybe not, maybe I shouldn't say as, as a lawyer, one of the reasons, but one of the impacts
Abhinandan: of
Mihira Sood: resorting to criminalization, um, of offenses, instead of making them civil offenses. Because the fear of a criminal proceeding, a criminal trial, I mean, nothing will bring a person to a negotiating table or willing to pay a bribe faster than the threat of criminal proceedings.
Abhinandan: Right. So if
Mihira Sood: it is just a question of paying a fine, people will fight it out.
Abhinandan: Yeah. But going to prison is something everybody dreads. But Mehira. I appreciate your input. So you can read both the pieces, but before we say goodbye to you, can you give us a recommendation that could enrich the lives of our listeners or viewers?
Mihira Sood: Okay. I [00:42:00] recently read this book called wellness by Nathan Hill. Uh, I think it speaks a lot to modern urban, modern urban societies, um, on all the afflictions of modern urban societies, though it's, uh, it's set in America. I think we can all recognize a lot of. our surroundings.
Abhinandan: Wellness. All right. Thank you so much, Mehira.
Have a wonderful day. And, uh, hope to see you in studio sometime.
Mihira Sood: Yeah, would be great.
Abhinandan: All right. Okay. See you.
Mihira Sood: Bye.
Abhinandan: Bye. Bye. And joining us on cue with the punctuality of an atomic clock. is Govind Raj, who we have kept waiting. Hi, Govind. Thank you for joining us.
Govindraj: I mean, hi everyone in the studio. Thank you so much for having me.
Yes. And thank you for your compliment, which usually does not work, but anyway.
Abhinandan: Okay. But, uh, let me first introduce you formally to our audience. [00:43:00] Mr. Nethiraj is a senior journalist and he's the founder of India Spend Boom and was also one of the founders of Bloomberg TV India. He's worked at Business Standard as editor of New Media and CNBC TV 18.
If you remember in the good old days, he was used to anchor their shows. He was one of their big two star anchors and he's been in the Economic Times and his podcast called The Core Report, which I listened to. On a daily basis now, uh, is entered its 500th episode yesterday before I think it was, when was it?
Yes. Day before was yesterday. It was a 500th episode. Uh, and, uh, I'll come straight to the end. First of all, you can wish us happy birthday. It's our 13th birthday. News laundries.
Govindraj: Oh, uh, wish you a very happy birthday and, uh, wish you many, many more rocking episodes of, uh, NL of that and many, many rocking investigative, hard hitting stories as you always do for News Laundry.
Abhinandan: Thank you. We did not pay, go in for that. This is a QR code again. If you want to gift someone a [00:44:00] 1300 rupee discounted. Subscription. You can scan this QR code or gift it to yourself and support independent journal in 13 years. No ads, baby. That's a record I'm proud of. So go in before we get into, you know, other aspects, uh, about the budget.
And I'm sure you've, I've heard your podcast. You've had some fantastic guests and you've obviously gained a lot of knowledge from your own knowledge and from the people you've had and about the dollar's collapse and its impact. You had an episode, I think two or three, um, days ago on 38%, if I have it right, of the compliances and regulatory frameworks around starting business, et cetera, a criminal nature, which is why there's such a fear of business, whereas it should be zero.
I mean, of course you, if you have a compliance violation, there should be penalties, but imprisonment is very high. In violations. And that really disincentivizes business. And we were talking about the UCC in Uttarakhand that you can be punished for not registering a [00:45:00] live in relationship and the rules around that are bizarre.
As far as the business aspect is concerned, can you just shed a little light based on those discussions of yours on the criminal nature of any business violations that we uniquely have in our country?
Govindraj: Uh, thanks again. So, you know, this is based on an Observer Research Foundation report, which they wrote in 22, I think it was called, jailed for Doing Business and 26,000 Imprisonment Laws in India's Business Laws.
It basically said that there are about 1,536 laws under which there are. 69, 000 compliances and they're split 25, 000 are central. Uh, the rest are local and Furthermore, they keep changing. So according to this report, they there are some 10 changes regulatory changes every day Now of these 1536 laws roughly half carry imprisonment clauses You know, the interesting thing is that uh, and of course those improvements imprisonment clauses carry a sentence of uh, at least a year And, you know, [00:46:00] there's a interesting, uh, uh, sort of history, not history.
Actually, it's, it's an approach more than a history because, uh, you know, the history we know, um, someone was telling me that, uh, uh, you know, I was asking about what is the fine for jumping a red light. So they said that, yes, it's, uh, you know, whatever you could pay, uh, 500 rupees or a thousand rupees or whatever, depending on where you are.
But apparently hidden in that is also the clause that you could be imprisoned. So and I said, and this is obviously someone who from the, from law enforcement and someone senior and all that. I said, so why is that there? I mean, you know, jumping a red light is jumping a red light. So his point was that, uh, you know, if you only had a fine, then people don't, uh, you don't, I mean, don't get sufficiently intimidated or scared to follow the law.
And therefore you need to put in the threat of imprisonment. Similarly, then he gave me another example. He said, you know, in a train, if you pull a chain. Right. So it's either [00:47:00] you pay a fine or it's imprisonment or whatever. So it's really, you know, so this is the problem. I mean, this is the threat of imprisonment is actually seemingly added quite casually into almost any law, which, uh, which sort of interfaces with the citizen, whether it's, uh, the regular day to day thing, like I talked about traffic lights or now in this case, economic offenses.
So. Okay. From, uh, the, the, the point of view of, uh, maybe a law enforcer, uh, is just a threat. But I think the problem that happens is when in oftentimes the threats become routine. And, uh, you know, the conversion is quite easy. You say, okay, uh, you were, uh, late in paying tax. And, uh, you know, and you were late by more than a certain period.
So now we are initiating prosecution against you, you know, and the law allows it and prosecution for jail. And this is not prosecution to collect more fines or whatever. So I think that's [00:48:00] really what the problem is. And I, and the, what happens because of this is that it induces a fear in doing business, you know?
So, I mean, you are in an office in, uh, in South Delhi. And I'm sure you won't know and you will not know how many things that you could do, which could actually imprison you, you know, from maybe not paying some tax on time to maybe not repairing some wall because it should have been and so on and so forth.
So I think that that's what my focus was. I mean, the larger impact, which is that there is an unease of doing business because of this, uh, particular and small enterprises get scared, they get worried. And they're always thinking, I mean, you know, we're all small enterprises and they're always thinking, I mean, did we do something or did we not do something which could, uh, invite, forget the fine and the penalty, but jail time.
And that's a completely different, uh, problem. And I think that's something that is the larger worry in this case.
Abhinandan: So speaking of intimidation, just want to point out and also thank, uh, Ms. Sita Raman and her department. We got, I think nine or 10 income tax notices over the last week. [00:49:00] Um, so thank you, Birthday gift.
First birthday gift. We look forward to at least three of them are orders against us. Uh, thank you for that as well. We look forward to more. You'll have to send a few hundred to really intimidate us. Uh, uh, we shall of course be challenging those as a legal right, but do keep sending us more and next one send with a please happy birthday note.
We'd appreciate that as well because, and, and we apparently have violated so many, uh, income tax laws across four or five years. And we have grown so little, we've done a recent investigation into a cabinet minister whose enterprise grew by several hundred crores. Clearly, we need to learn business from him because I don't think a dozen income tax officers without
Raman: writing any notice.
Abhinandan: So we look forward to learning business from cabinet ministers and IT department can teach us. But thank you. We look forward to more IT notices, but it will not stop us from what we do in case that was the intent. I'm not saying it is, but in case.
Raman: And [00:50:00] if there was a notice or a raid against this cabinet minister, it was ignored.
Abhinandan: But yeah, so, uh, Govind now coming to the budget, uh, many people who I spoke with were saying that after the budget, the market will once again go up. The market has, I mean. I think it's gone corrected about 20 percent of the last four or five months since the September high, if I'm not wrong, uh, 12, 13%, but specific portfolios, depending on whether you're mid cap or some mini
Govindraj: stocks, uh, are down 50 percent and more and so on.
Yeah. So maybe not so much.
Abhinandan: So there was a thing that it'll jump after the election and if everyone, it hasn't happened so far, of course the U S and Trump's and particularly has a lot to do with it. But as far as the budget is concerned, this 12 lakh up to 12 lakh tax exemption, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Can you break down any outlier features that this budget has offered or like [00:51:00] often is the case, there's a lot of noise and discussions because that is convention. And that is what feeds broadcasters 24 hour session. Anything notable that is worth discussing in depth.
Govindraj: I think there are a few specifics that may be worth discussing the budget from my sense is, I mean, if there is no bad news is the good news is how I would see it.
The second thing is, if you look at what a lot, some business leaders at least are saying is they're calling it balanced. So when they say balanced and not great, I think that's a fairly good indicator of what they're really thinking. Uh, which is that, uh, you know, I mean, there is nothing really, uh, landmark in this, in this budget.
I think that the, the middle class, obviously the benefit to the middle class, uh, and that 70, 80, 000 rupees or more, uh, that they get in their pockets is a good thing. I think it's only correcting a problem of the past, which is that, uh, of the recent past, which is that there is clear, I mean, there is a pressure of inflation on households.
And people are feeling it [00:52:00] incomes are not growing like they did before. So if you're in that range and in particularly, if you're in that range, you're also like kind of, you're the likely candidate to spend more. You've obviously been feeling the pressure of prices going up across whether it's goods or services, and you're also seeing that your incomes are not rising.
I mean, best case it could rise 10%, but many cases it may not. I mean, if you look at people who, uh, you know, the. The popular example is that of young engineers who join some of these big IT companies, whether it's Infosys or TCS, 10 to 15 years ago, starting salary, four lakhs,
Abhinandan: uh,
Govindraj: 2024, 25, starting salary, four lakhs, I mean, give or take, and, uh, I mean, there are, I mean, there are business and market reasons for that.
So, I mean, I wouldn't unfairly attack them, but I'm saying that's really, that's like, I mean, if you're a young engineer from an okay college, maybe not, uh, the top college. Uh, you know, starting a career and so on. This is what you're likely to earn. Actually, that's more true for
Abhinandan: our industry, Govind. Uh, I don't know whether you remember the [00:53:00] late 2000, 2000, let's say four to 2010 in broadcast as a producer, uh, the amount, uh, I could charge as a director for per episode on TV shows, uh, and I was a consultant on one network.
The amount I was paid as a consultant in a month is what probably one of the top four editors get paid today as a full time job. So even in our industry, the salaries have not just stagnated, they've dropped about 50 to 60%.
Govindraj: Yeah. And accounting for inflation and so on. So I think there is a, I think the finance minister definitely had a problem.
And there was a post COVID, uh, sort of surge in consumption, uh, which happened across the world. But I have a feeling we took it for granted. I, I, I have a feeling that in many other economies, people realize that that was what was driving consumption and therefore didn't take it for granted, at least mentally.
There is, I feel we did, but I mean, not that it could have changed outcomes much. We are clearly seeing an earnings growth [00:54:00] slowdown. Uh, I was listening to this, uh, fund manager called Saurabh Mukherjee and he says, this is the, the, the, I mean, and let me use his word so as to not make a mistake. He says that, uh, this is the biggest, uh, or the sharpest earnings slowdown earnings growth slowdown in a generation.
Excluding COVID and, uh, and Lehman Brothers and so on, so that if, if, I mean, Lehman Brothers goes back to 2008.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Govindraj: So the economy has really slowed, or at least the earnings have slowed and the growth has slowed. So all of this means that, uh, things are not in the best shape and, uh, right now. And, uh, which is why the markets are reflecting that.
The markets realize that, uh, you know, usually markets grow in relation to earnings. So if you say, okay, my earnings are going to grow at 10%, then markets will, you know, be, uh, sort of some factor above that. But if that's not happening, then obviously markets are slowing down. So, which in turn is causing foreign investors to sell, uh, [00:55:00] among other reasons, but foreign investors have been selling heavily in the last year.
That's 2024 and 25. It's more than 9 billion in 25 already. All of 2024, I think their net positive investment was only half a billion dollars, half a billion net positive for all of 2024. So, I mean, that's one indicator. It's not the only indicator because domestic investors are investing too. So, I think the markets are reflecting that lack of optimism and till earnings improve, till companies start doing better.
Things will not pick up. You can only go that far on sentiment.
Abhinandan: And as a bigger picture, uh, how reflective are markets? And I'm talking about, you know, stock markets, bond markets, an indicator of the economic health of a country. Cause I remember, and this is, uh, I had quoted in a column I had written in the late 2000s again, where everyone used to talk about the booming stock market.
Of course [00:56:00] at that time I was a huge critic of the UPA government, which seems so wonderful now compared to, uh, you know what I thought of it then. Uh, the best performing stock market of Asia at that time was, uh, actually, uh, lahar. Yeah. And, uh, it was under . And my logic was that, you know, those were very excited about, oh look, I economy is doing so well 'cause the stock market is doing so well just look across, maybe you should render.
And that's not even a democracy. So how accurate is an indicator? Is the market an indicator of the overall economic health of a country or do we just spend too much time on it because it is people who invest in the markets who can pay for subscriptions, who have purchasing powers, who all ads are targeted them and the others can fuck off.
They don't matter.
Govindraj: So, I mean, all of this is really about the hundred million. Of the country, you know, which is growing obviously at a much higher rate than the rest of the country. I mean, I think HSBC said, uh, it's the 15 percent of the economy, which is growing at
Abhinandan: 15%.
Govindraj: Uh, it may, I mean, many, some would argue it's less.
Goldman Sachs said 100 million. And that's really the market. I mean, I mean, and if [00:57:00] we were honest, all of us are part of the same. So, uh, so the markets, I think in the short term can be driven by sentiment, but medium to long term, usually they reflect fundamentals. I mean, at least whenever I've seen or tried to look back, uh, it's always been linked to fundamentals.
I think, uh, you, you mentioned Lahore. I'm not familiar with loud specifically, but I think some, there are some objective and maybe somewhat less objective. parameters. Uh, but you look at depth of the market, you look at how many stocks are part of it, are major companies, uh, represented in India. It's a, it's a, it's a particularly wide market.
I mean, you don't, you don't have just private companies like a reliance or a levers or Nestle, but you also have a lot of public sector companies were also valued pretty well. Uh, including let's say the oil companies or defense companies or, uh, you know, uh, Hindustan Aeronautics, which is, uh, uh, an aviation, uh, or aircraft manufacturing company or shipyards and, and, uh, you know, coal, I mean, sorry, [00:58:00] uh, power company, NTPC.
So that's, uh, so I would say that the stock markets have a reasonably good representation, even in the short to medium term, maybe not short, short. I mean, if you say, okay, oh, it shot up so much. Because, uh, the government came back to power. That's usually a sentimental reaction, but I think over, when you look at it over six months, three months, six months, one year, I think that's a lot, I would say it's a more fundamental reaction.
And for good reason, I mean, I do believe that the Indian markets are reasonably deep and reasonably wide and are well represented. And, uh, I mean, we have more than 5, 000 stocks, so that not necessarily the, I mean, the only reason, but I think they're reasonably, reasonably well represented. The companies that are listed are also.
Reasonable barometers of what's happening in the in the economy, which as you can see right now from all the commentary if You know bank stocks, for example are slightly, uh under strain it's because uh, Maybe there is some slowdown in lending or they're not able to raise enough deposits Uh, if you look at companies like levers and nestle whose stocks have been under [00:59:00] pressure for more than a year now It's because their top lines have slowed down because consumption has slowed down, which is also visible elsewhere.
It's not just levers results that have to tell me that. And the
Abhinandan: 12 black, uh, exemption is more attuned to maybe showing you a bit of a bump in the consumer companies, you know, where. There is some,
Govindraj: I think so. I mean, I think it's, uh, uh, yeah, it, it potentially, but I mean, it's like, if I were to, uh, you have to go, I mean, you have to look at how does it, what does it do to some of us, right?
So suppose I was earning that and I, I know that this year I'm going to get more, it's quite likely that maybe I will invest. Half of that, or put some in a bank or maybe repay past loans, which I suspect is the case with many people. Because a lot of people are actually living stretched exact existences because that's precisely why Reserve Bank has been so worried about, uh, unsecured, small, small ticket loans, uh, becoming so big that people are borrowing, um, by now, uh, pay later.
You know, [01:00:00] small loans, you know, and, uh, you know, whatever, and enjoying, you know, sort of doing something in, in fun or entertainment or buying things or mobile phones. So we've had a huge consumer, uh, boom in the post COVID period. A lot of it has been driven by loans and so on. So people have stressed themselves.
Abhinandan: Uh, before I move on to the dollar bit, I know Govind has to go, just want to correct myself. It's called the Pakistan stock exchange. The building is in Lahore. Uh, but, uh, it is called the Pakistan Stock Exchange, uh, even though it's housed in Lahore. Uh, any comments on the budget before we move on to the dollars, uh, you know, becoming so expensive in India and its reasons and impacts.
Raman, Manisha, Anand, did you guys have a, were you glued to the TV during the budget and did you have any moments of wah or no, or you were like. I was just
Manisha: amazed with the 12 lakh exemption, but then I think that had to do a lot with the Delhi elections because the advertisements, the BJP advertisement did say that vote for us because you know.
Abhinandan: Sorry, coming to that, isn't that a silent period, like [01:01:00] the day of election, there was a front page ad. But that's,
Manisha: uh, everywhere they flouted. Every election I've attended, the front pages have a party ad, sometimes Congress, BJP, TMC. No, it
Abhinandan: was, there was a Congress ad and a BJP ad, but I thought it wasn't allowed.
Manisha: No, it's just. I think it's just. The silent period thing is a bit of a joke.
Abhinandan: No one
Raman: is silent. It's, uh, it's, it's correcting the past.
Manisha: Yeah.
Raman: And acknowledging that there's something amiss. Correcting the past. Uh, if you look at the economic survey, uh, the average income of a person has gone down from 12, 800 to 11, 600 in from 2017 to 2023.
Abhinandan: Wow.
Raman: Okay. And, uh, in case of women, it is worst. It is from 10, 500. It has gone down to 8, 000 something 8, 800 or so. So I think this is correcting the past. Uh, this is, uh, one I, and I think it is, uh, uh, also, I mean, [01:02:00] if you look at the list of the tech space, I think half of them are the zero taxpayers. Say, if there are, uh, there are 1 lakh or 100 people paying the tax, half of them don't pay any tax.
They, they're just submitting their, they are the zero tax payers.
Abhinandan: Filing returns. Yes. They don't pay direct
Raman: tax.
Abhinandan: Indirect tax. Yes. Anand, you say?
Anand: No, I think this was a budget where government could have taken some political risks and it has taken. I don't. link it to Delhi elections. It has taken in the way it has catered to the middle class, which has been this party's traditional vote bank, but it has also now drifted to other segments or other political players.
One reflection of it. Was that in the economic survey, we could see that the ruler conjunction is up, but the, the urban consumption is going [01:03:00] down. So one way of correcting is to give some, uh, relief or tax breaks to the salaried middle class. Oth the other way of, uh, say uh hmm. Uh, in migrating the conjunction was the public spending that, uh, uh, the government had been doing for last three, four months, uh, sorry, three, four years.
But this time they have taken a kind of, uh, risk maybe because, uh, till be hard, there is no big election and is also, uh. Uh, not only the middle class, they have also gone to the new middle class in the gig workers and, uh, and they have made them register on the Eastern portal, extended the social benefit, like, uh, predominantly, uh, to them.
So, uh, this, uh, catering to that is a. Corrective with an eye [01:04:00] on say fiscal consolidation because they have also targeted coming from 4. 8 percent of the GDP to 4. 4 percent which is that they're still eyeing that the fiscal consolidation. Uh, other thing is that, uh, the, uh, uh, means a, uh, a skilling bit could have been a better focus area, but it has got some lip service, but not much, um, that is, that's all honest.
Govindraj: Right. I think, uh, the, I think the key question is, uh, jobs, uh, I've been on them, I think the, uh, you know, and, and no government will have easy answers. I mean, India is not such an easy country to govern. I mean, though you may, even if you make it appear so. And, you know, the reason I talk, we talked about, uh, you know, these criminalization.
I mean, what is the, I mean, what does it do? It, it makes businesses uncertain. It gives them an element of fear, which prevents them from [01:05:00] investing or expanding because you hear a story. You know about other people having problems or whatever so and there are so many things linked to it I mean, you know ease of doing business is broken down into many things I mean, I talked to let's say the big four consulting companies, uh, including on my show They're talking about the same thing and so is the small garment exporter from thirupur So there is a problem.
And unless we fix this, and these are plumbing issues, I mean, these are not things you can legislate from the top, you know, you can't say, Oh, you know, announce it in the finance, uh, presenting the union budget and things will get resolved. No, it won't. I mean, a lot of problems are at the state level, every state, uh, a lot of things have to do with inspectors who land up and make life miserable.
And one inspector lands up, if it's a small 10 person company or outfit, uh, you know, even in manufacturing, everyone's life gets affected. I think those are things that, uh, we had to, I mean, we have to show direction. I mean, you can't solve everything overnight. I think the other big, uh, concern, I mean, concern or, uh, thing that I was looking out for was, you know, the world has changed, uh, since [01:06:00] Trump took over.
I mean, we're on the verge of trade war, uh, global trade wars. Trump, uh, announced. Um, uh, 25 percent tariffs on Mexico and Canada and 10 percent on China. Mexico, Canada, he's called it off, held it in abeyance for one month, but China continues. China has retaliated. As of now, India, we don't know whether, uh, he's going to impose tariffs or not, but we've already in anticipation, reduced our tariffs, including for Harley Davidson bikes.
And we, uh, according to Reuters, uh, there's a Reuters report, which says we're looking at 32 items of import from the U S for which we will reduce tariffs. So So it's a, this is a new world and, uh, businesses have to be ready for it. I mean, policy has to be ready also. And in a way, it's a good thing that the prime minister is headed to the U.
S. Maybe he'll negotiate something good for, uh, the business, the economy and so on. But the point is that businesses have to be ready for this, uh, this world, which has become even more certain. And that is something that, uh, I did not see in the budget. Now, I think the government's position is that we can't do anything and we will have to wait to see what [01:07:00] Trump does.
Yes, that's a, that's a good tactical response. But the point is that we have fundamental problems wherein we are not ready to face in many industries. I mean, you take governments as an example, you know, in, in exposed to the us uh, China is, I think at 20%. Uh, Vietnam is 17, 18%. Uh, India is at nine, uh, sorry, Bangladesh is at 9%.
And India is at 6%. Okay, this is U. S. imports of apparel and all these countries share. So India is at 6%, Bangladesh is at 9%. So whatever the reasons are. And then Cambodia, even a country like Cambodia is at 4%, I think Indonesia is at 5%. So just behind us. I mean, these are such small countries.
-: Yeah. You
Govindraj: know, uh, Bangladesh, uh, Vietnam, Indonesia, Cambodia, such small countries, and they have such large share of, uh, garment and apparel exports.
I mean, and these are industries where once upon a time we had massive advantages and, uh, traditional strengths. I mean, if you look at everyone, Reliance started as a textile company, you know, every company in India, Sriram Mills, you know, everyone [01:08:00] has started from textiles. So we've lost that. And we've not just lost that, we're losing it, uh, at, uh, you know, light speed.
So how do we fix that and how do we, you know, bring back more manufacturing? And a lot of this has to do with the nuts and bolts of policymaking, the nuts and bolts of doing business. And we have to solve those problems, you know, and the budget, all budgets will do some good things. They may not do some good things and all that, but unless we solve this, uh, how do we create more jobs?
How do we, you know, create more consumption, more buying power? I think those are the two things. Still a change in world.
Abhinandan: Yeah, but I think the whole trickle down, the only way trickle down works is I don't believe trickle down, uh, economics works. The only trickle down that works is the attitude towards governance.
And in that the, the small inspector follows the lead of the prime minister that I am the bully. You quote counter out to me, and then your business will be allowed to survive. And that is how everybody works. But just three quick points I want to make. One is that, uh, you know, you were talking about how people get [01:09:00] disincentivized.
Like, for example, this guy comes, the inspector comes, everyone gets it. Now, I don't know. They were about, I think, six or seven interns the day we were raided. It was a survey. And, you know, eight people come, they lock the doors. Give your phone. Those four, five guys were interns. They, for some of them, it was a second or third day in news laundry.
I could see they were so petrified. I doubt any of them will join news again because that was their first experience of bloody hell. I'm here interning. I'm
Manisha: just like, there were reporters, whatever the case was, there were reporters
Abhinandan: who, I mean, uh, and the, about the middle class sops, at least today's numbers in the Delhi election, if the whole budget was to kind of, uh, uh, attract the Delhi voter, the middle class of all the colonies from Karol Bagh, all the middle class colonies.
And it's amazing how we call even the hundred million middle class, like the gig worker is middle class. And you see how much a gig worker earns. It is pathetic compared to how much we earn. It's not even in the [01:10:00] same stratosphere. but yet everyone wants to throw themselves into middle class. So, but the true middle class, their numbers, voting numbers in Delhi actually went down since last time.
So I don't know if it actually helped the BJP in any way. Uh,
Govindraj: but everyone benefits. I think, uh, I mean, I don't know. Yes, you, you could be, I mean, one cynical way and maybe whatever it's a view that, yes, uh, this is only for daily elections or we had elections, but I suspect something like this, uh, everyone benefits.
So, uh, in, in the larger scheme of things. It's, it's fine. But I think the larger issue equally is, uh, what are we doing about conceptually and fundamentally and long term about, uh, creating jobs, making it easier for small businesses to set up, to start, to flourish, to grow, uh, and large businesses as well.
See, we have a very funny problem on taxes, you know, so we've given middle class tax. People say, no, no, increase taxes on richer people. You increase tax, uh, beyond a certain point or you make it more difficult. They all run away. Yeah, of course. No doubt. And we've seen that. I mean, uh, tens of [01:11:00] thousands of millionaires have left, continue to leave.
They go and settle in Dubai, Singapore, uh, the United States, you know, uh, and they're paying. And those, many of those jurisdictions like Dubai have very low to zero taxes. And, uh, they're happy, you know, spend six months there, six months here.
Abhinandan: And regarding this dollars, uh, the rupee slide against the dollar, uh, I'm hearing, you know, partly from your podcast, there is, there are certain factors that may make, you know, fuel prices cheaper.
Uh, which would, uh, help a country like India that spends much of its dollars on actually importing fuel. Uh, but on the other hand, with Trump's rhetoric against Iran saying that he'll get the exports to zero. And from what I understand, India does export, uh, import, uh, some
Govindraj: 80 percent of its crude oil from, uh, from outside
Abhinandan: from Iran.
I don't know how much of it is from Iran, but if he says, I'll take that, I think Iran earns someone 54, 53 billion from oil exports is he'll bring it down to zero. So, uh, if he [01:12:00] does that, then Actually, energy, uh, fuel prices will go up
Manisha: for us. Yeah.
Abhinandan: Uh, now does the weaker rupee have to do with Trump's unpredictability?
Does it have to do with our economy being miserably weak? And from, again, your podcast, I hear that the slide should ease up now. It is not going to hit 90 in a hurry, but it will eventually. Can you give us why it's happening and how it impacts us?
Govindraj: I mean, I'm not a forex expert, but let me, uh, uh, sort of give you the distilled version of what I pick up as you do.
So, uh, I think firstly it predates Trump. I think the rupee has been under pressure for some time because the dollar also has been strong. It's obviously got stronger since November after, uh, Trump was elected. Uh, There are two or three reasons. Uh, I think a lot of it is one is the pressure that you face from an oncoming currency like the dollar, but equally, uh, your own economy and how things are doing and the Indian economy is weak.
So most Asian currencies have been weak in the last [01:13:00] year or so. And, uh, They've depreciated. So has the rupee. But I think the last couple of months the rupee has depreciated more because people feel that the economy now has slowed down. Uh, that may not be the case with a lot of other Asian countries.
The reserve bank has been managing the rupee. It's been buying dollars at various points and managing the rupee. So And we were treating that as a good thing because we said, Oh, the rupee is the most stable currency, one of the most stable currencies in the world, the most stable currency in Asia, I think in 23 and 24.
So it was always in that band of 83, 84, uh, or depending on a slightly lower band earlier. Uh, now we feel that, uh, maybe it was not the best thing to hold the currency because we've created an artificial sense of stability, which was not there. So the currency has to reflect what, uh, your state, the state of the economy is like the dollar reflects the strength of the U S economy.
And uh, I would also, I would argue, or having seen it over time that we should not [01:14:00] interfere with its natural level. And now is the national level 90 or maybe a little more or a little less, I don't know, but. The closer it is to that natural level, it's better. Uh, economist Ajay Shah, for example, says that when you maintain a dollar at such a stable level or the rupee at such a stable level, you're taking away the risk from companies.
A company's job is to manage that. Why are you transferring the risk from the private sector to the government and taxpayers? So, um, yeah, so I, I see the merit of that. I mean, let businesses manage the risk. Uh, if it goes up, I mean, it depreciates too much. Obviously there is a problem in the economy because we're paying more for oil.
And other imports. But on the other hand, it can even out as well.
Abhinandan: And I heard that podcast. He says that basically incentivizes careless behavior by private businesses who have a lot of forex dealings because they know the government is going to handle it. Right. Thank you so much. I could go on. Do you
Manisha: have to rush Govind Question.
Abhinandan: Quick one.
Manisha: It's not quick though. But so if you have to rush, you can rush. We'll
Abhinandan: [01:15:00] get you again. We'll get him for an hour. Yeah. Yeah. Happy
Govindraj: to join you again.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Great. So we'll get you for an hour. There are many questions that even I have left unanswered. But before we go quickly, any recommendation?
Of course, I recommend, uh, the core report of the podcast. I listened to it. pretty much daily. It is something I wish News Laundry had the capacity of doing, but we don't. So as long as I'm concerned, as long as the ecosystem is getting strengthened, uh, it's good for all of us. So do listen to that. But other than that, any other recommendations, Govind?
Govindraj: Yeah, no, firstly, thank you Abhinandan for having me. It's always a pleasure and pleasure to meet Manisha and all your team members once again. The book I, uh, wanna recommend is a little, uh, uh, on a, on a slightly different plane. It's called Sacred Waters by Stephen Malter And, uh, I went to the mountains, uh, after a long time, uh, in December.
So that prompted me to, uh, you know, read up a little more. And Sacred Waters is really about the story of the major rivers of India in the North, and it starts with Stephen Alter. [01:16:00] Uh, going to Bhagirathi and then, uh, Devprayag and that whole part, but sort of mixing it with history and mythology and all of that.
So it's a good sort of revisit for me. And it's, uh, I just want to read a little more about that area because I intend to go back. So I recommend anyone wanting to read about the history, mythology and on ground, uh, uh, narrative. Um, about how the sacred rivers of India started originated where they are today.
I think this is a good book.
Abhinandan: Thanks Govind. Uh, more power to you and see you around hopefully soon. Sometime in our studio.
Govindraj: Thank you so much. Absolutely. Look forward. Bye. Bye.
Abhinandan: Now, uh, I have a quick announcement to remind everyone. It's the 13th birthday. Here's a QR code. You know, the drill, do what you can do what you have to, uh, I want to quick, you know, just briefly discuss the Tamil Nadu governors versus the Tamil Nadu government and the Supreme Court order.
Uh, but before we do that on the budget, on the dollar, any other inputs or, uh, feedback, what did you want to ask him though? We will get him for a longer time. It was
Manisha: [01:17:00] more of a philosophical question of colonized nations and choosing democracy and whether that comes in the way of economic goals.
Abhinandan: Interesting. I think Anand would like to explore that. No, so where the question is, what does it do to with budget? Not, but it's just, no,
Manisha: no, no, I'll just, I'll just elaborate. Basically he talked about. His law enforcement friend who said that Indians essentially will not listen until there's a fear of jail.
That's the logic of why we are penalizing everyone even for jumping a red light. I was recently in Vietnam and I was blown away by the economic activity, the sense of growth, optimism, the participation of women in business. And of course, it's a manufacturing hub today. But when you're there, you see what they're manufacturing.
It's actually world class stuff, like shoes, for example. Right. In India, you've had Agra leather industry for so long, but it's nowhere close to what Vietnam is producing, manufacturing, and how clean it was. I was blown away. I mean, Ho Chi Minh City is, [01:18:00] there's no Indian city that comes close to cleanliness.
And it's sad and I, I zeroed it down. I was wondering why, because they were colonized like us, they were battered in the war with America, humiliated like the other colonized nations, but they've been able to kind of now I think GDP per capita they've beaten India. I zeroed it down to them being a police state.
Like, the only sense I could make of it is that once you get rid of this mess of democracy, you can kind of enforce. Dear God,
Abhinandan: listen to you. This mess of democracy.
Manisha: No, no. So I wanted to know from him and then cut to what he's talking about India, right? This role of trying to just scare everyone with jail.
You know, to get them to comply. And I was wondering, like, when it comes to colonized nations, is there something we know about the ones that chose democracy and the ones that went into, like, police state, no democracy, and whether that had something to do with their growth trajectory?
Abhinandan: It doesn't necessarily answer exactly your question, but is in the same space.[01:19:00]
Is the Nobel Prize for Economics that was given this year, was for a paper, uh, on, uh, which three people wrote together, on former colonies. And, uh, there, uh, was it for economics? I'll just check. Uh, and they have studied how their democracies and their laws evolved, uh, depending on what their position was, uh, in, in that, uh, in the, in the, uh, colonizing power.
And it had to do with how many of the colonizing powers people went and settled there. And that had a huge impact because they've looked at Nigeria, they've looked at African countries, they've looked at Australia, they've looked at India, they've looked at many countries and their approach to laws. is directly proportional to how many of those people went and settled there.
Were they just settlers or were they just exploiting resources and getting it back to their countries? So, [01:20:00] but yeah, not exactly a question, but that's an interesting. But maybe
Manisha: like I'd want an economist to weigh in and like behaviors that make business conducive and what role does democracy or a police state have?
Yep. Because like I was. It was interesting, like the hotel where we stayed the morning, the whole staff would sing the National Anthem, which to me was just like, why are they doing? They'll have a military drill for just changing like customs. Customs, he was the guy who checks your, the passport control thing.
When their shift ends, they would get up and do like a strange military kind of a drill. So I was just like, and people say that if you really want to see what real nationalism means, go to China. It's a very nationalist kind of a. And that's what some of what Modi wants to do here, right? Like pride in India.
Bharat Pehle. It's very superficial.
Abhinandan: But it's kind of,
Manisha: I think it's trying to ape that model of sense of pride. You were battered. And China had this whole, like they had this in schools. Like ingrained. Actually, this whole, uh, you know, interesting to have somebody with an [01:21:00] economic perspective to, no, no, no,
Raman: you will automatically, you will feel proud when your teams win, uh, I mean, in sports, or if your institutions are become stronger day by day.
Okay. Here, if you just, uh, create fear in me, you better be proud of the nation. I mean, whatever we are, we maybe we are a very dirty city. We are, you know, everything. So, I mean, it doesn't happen that.
Abhinandan: Also, I think that you'll have to see both sides. For example, at least my experience of having gone to Pakistan and, you know, dealt a lot of Pakistanis, Pakistan is a lot more patriotic than us, you know, Pakistan, Pakistan, but there it has had the opposite effect as in Vietnam, you know, and at least from my understanding, Pakistan is so.
over the top patriotic is because they need to overcompensate because it's such a loser country. It's fucked. It's a failed state. And especially when dealing with Indians, they want to show a Pakistan [01:22:00] Pakistan. It is a poor substitute for any real achievement. So some extremely loser countries also are overly patriotic, so I don't think there's any correlation there, but, you know, on the governor versus Supreme Court, maybe we'll, uh, deal with it next time because the lgs, the LG, and the vice chancellor's issue also will be in the same space.
So hopefully Anan will be there for that discussion. I want that to be a 35, 40 minute discussion, but I just want to again, remind everybody that we'll be closing our Delhi Sena fund. And while recording this, it still hasn't been topped up, which is rather unfortunate. Uh, but, uh, this is your last chance.
Uh, you can top up the NL Sena fund for Delhi election. Um, because here's the QR code because we don't take any ads. It has been. 13 years, no ads, only subscriber funded journalism. So we are approximately at six lakhs. We are about three and a half lakhs short. Um, most of the [01:23:00] coverage is finished. Just maybe a few stories are left.
We'd really appreciate if you scan this QR code and contributed to our revenue so that we can continue the journalism. Without fear of favor, having to suck up to any brands or governments to give us ads or benefits.
Raman: There are many deep dive stories
Abhinandan: still pending
Raman: in Delhi polls. I mean, they are emerging stories.
Abhinandan: So, so we may,
Raman: we may keep following, you know, for months for that.
Abhinandan: Okay. So please do. The QR code is staying on for a long time. Producer, please make sure it stays for a long time so people can pick up their phone or take a screenshot. Do what you have to do. Please do contribute. Uh, so let's get on to the emails.
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What emerged was only read till the 150th word After that, just don't read the rest. So that's what we're going to do. So what is the feedback this week? Let's read, read a few, maybe not all.
Manisha: Yoshimitsu says regarding Trump fulfilling what he had promised in his first term. No, he didn't. Remember he ran as the representer of the masses in his first term.
What was his first step? Cut taxes on the rich. Something he's done again. Has he said there'll be no income tax? We'll go back to the Gilded Age in America. He said
Abhinandan: that earlier, not, but I'm not sure to the specific promise, but yes, he has said that at some point that we shouldn't pay any tax at all.
Manisha: Talked about draining the swamp, didn't do it at all. In fact, brought his family into the fall. No wars? Well, broke the Iran nuclear deal that Obama had brochured. I think on no war, though, we can give him some credit on that. There was, it was a relatively non interventionist U. S. government. [01:25:00] Remember the wall?
Well, there's no wall. Being a free speech messiah? Well, filed multiple cases against CNN, even Bill Maher over a joke. If you've noticed, U. S. media is doing its godification as well. The orange Orangutan learns from the fakir. My God. Using different pseudonyms because anonymous is boring.
Abhinandan: Right. Okay, Oshimitsu, thank you.
Manisha: Kazuya says, Had seen Manisha's post questioning why air pollution is not an issue in Delhi elections. Well, because the incentive structure is hardly in place for it. A large bucket that these politicians are targeting are the ones for whom air quality just too high on the most low hierarchy of needs.
The middle class is probably the least reliable voter anyway, and a portion of them are anyway radicalized. So while I appreciate the attempt you're making at questioning the authority, give it 3 4 months and you'll be questioning how, just how, 10 15 minutes of rain can flood Delhi NCR. I know, seasonal, this is like a cyclical.
Until the middle class became a reliable voter and marches out on the street, this will stay. And the last time I checked, India's middle class was actually [01:26:00] shrinking. Appreciate the work you're doing. Although water pollution was a concern this election, one must say that. But that's also very direct, you can see from the tab.
bad water coming and you're using it for very physical things. Air, I think the problem is also it's just you just can't see it and it takes too long for it to give you cancer. So no one's gonna immediately protest. But water you can see the, you know. The water
Raman: quality, I mean, say in UP where I stay, Noida, I mean Delhi, NCR, whatever, it's pretty bad.
Yeah. I mean, nobody can drink from the tap water. Same here. Same
Manisha: here. We had like lots of reports saying, complaining about water quality in Delhi. Ashish Silla says, Hi NL team. I love your podcast and want to thank you for sparking my interest in politics and help me develop perspectives on current affairs.
I have a couple of conundrums I'd love to hear your thoughts on, especially from Abhinandan, though I'd appreciate insights from the whole team. Women's dress code in temples. Should women be judged for what they wear to temples? I often support my wife in wearing what she's comfortable in. But where do we draw the line?
If [01:27:00] skirts are acceptable, then why not a bikini? Who decides what is appropriate? Immigration laws. Should all immigrants be welcomed? If so, what happens when demographics shifts drastically, potentially leading to conflicts like Palestine Israel? If immigration should be restricted, where does humanity factor in?
Keep doing what you're doing.
Abhinandan: Okay. So on the first, let's ask the panel, Women's Rescore in Temples. It's been recently introduced, I think, which, uh, they've just said, no, I'll just check. But yes, uh, let me go around the panel on women's dress code and immigration laws. Uh, Anand, do you have a take on it?
Anand: Immigrants are of different types. Which kind of
Abhinandan: immigrants? Yeah, exactly. It's a very general question. So if you have a general view, you can give that.
Anand: I think we live as territorially marked citizens. So land is a limited resource for any nation state. Um, it can cause. Economic backlash from people who have been living there for very long.
So that's [01:28:00] also that's a political constituency that political players can encash. So that's, uh, given the resources, given Uh, the nature of the origin of nation estates, there is not a clear cut answer to that, that there should be welcome or not. They should not be, uh, treated inhumanely, that's, that's a non negotiable thing, but whether they should overstay their welcome, I, I am not very definite about it.
Uh, what was the other question?
Abhinandan: Dress codes and temples.
Anand: Dress codes and temples. Dress code in temples. Yeah, I don't go to temples. I don't see what people live here, but um, I think a temple as an institution It is also an institution. So just like a school or college it can have its rules so, [01:29:00] uh, if It is just, uh, I'll say a, uh, public shared space and a very public entity and, uh, kind of public square, then that's a different thing.
But, uh, it is also governed by institutional norms. So, uh, also people who come there come there for certain institutional integration into certain values. So if, uh, there is a point where it. It comes in contradiction with that, then you can have a code or any way
Abhinandan: you have a take on either of these.
Manisha: Temples, yeah, I feel like, I think all religious institutions have their mores like gurdwaras you have to cover your head, dargahs often you have to wear, like you can't wear sleeveless, they'll ask you to wear. Or cover your head. Uh, dargahs not, usually I've not seen cover your head. Ajmeri you have to cover your head.
But you have to, yeah, okay.
Abhinandan: I think so. I mean, they
Manisha: tell you to not like show your arms [01:30:00] and all that. Similarly, temples also have, I think. If you're going to a temple and you seek that, you know, what you get out of religion, which is sort of organized with a certain set of rules, I wouldn't, I don't understand the point of unnecessarily riling up, I'll end up with a bikini or whatever.
It's just, it doesn't make sense to me. I think you go with what the tradition is.
Raman: I think the religious places have to evolve, uh, all the religious places. Uh, I am nobody to tell. You know, a person who, what that person should wear, that, what that person should not wear, but yes, uh, I think, uh, it is more or less automatically people follow it.
I mean, more or less everybody follows.
Manisha: Exactly.
Raman: Everybody. I mean, this is where I, I, I mean, I'm against such courts, frankly speaking, if in one sentence. And, uh, second is immigration also. I think the world is shrinking. Um, I think, uh, immigrants, [01:31:00] uh, it should be legalized, uh, I mean, uh, the world is shrinking.
People should.
Abhinandan: There should be processes for.
Raman: Go ahead. There should be processes. Otherwise, I think people will continue to defy it.
Manisha: On immigration, I have very radical views. I feel like, especially when it comes to the white man who landed up uninvited on our shores, looted us, plundered us, took over our land and called themselves enlightened.
Now it's our time to be enlightened. I'm in
Raman: her team. We are the new
Manisha: Christopher Columbus's, these Punjabis who are going everywhere. And South Asia, and it's only going to increase when you have climate change. For example, the next 20 years, you're going to have so many climate migrants. We are not going to now just suffer in our subcontinent.
Abhinandan: You
Manisha: have took place in Canada. We'll come there, man. Like you came here.
Abhinandan: So just one correction. Uh, the recent one week ago to Siddhi Vinayak temple, short skirts and tanjeer.
Manisha: There's a middle ground between like covering yourself and Wearing a bikini. I think like, and most places have that. You can wear jeans.
Abhinandan: But again, I think some of these, uh, like for example, when at the media rumble, when Sookie Kim had come [01:32:00] and she wanted to see the Jama Masjid, she and Mike Resendis, I had taken them there. And she was wearing a longish skirt, which was sleeveless. And, uh, the, whatever Imam or whatever dude is there, he came and you know, they have this, ah, there he says, here, you'll have to cover yourself and then you can go in.
Uh, now when she covered herself, it did not make a dramatic difference. Yeah, . Uh, but by, for example, jeans. Now, how do they know other Dean jeans to, for style? Can the guy not afford. You see, some of these tantrums are just that boss, you do something.
Manisha: Don't look nice, basically.
Abhinandan: You do something. If
Manisha: you're looking poor in torn jeans, it's fine, but you're looking
Abhinandan: hot.
What does that mean? Suppose I have torn jeans. OK, not me, but for example, the guy who we see him often, the guy who cleans the road outside our office. He pretty much wears the same trousers very regularly. There's a huge torn patch. Now, will he be checked? Because he wears that skirt for another pair. So, I mean, some of these rules are just, you know, like [01:33:00] when you ask a team for feedback, sometimes they have no feedback to give.
But because you've asked, they have to give. Whether it's relevant or not, this is what many of these guys are doing.
Manisha: Temples though, fairly have modernized, I feel in terms like jeans is not a taboo, maybe like torn jeans, but jeans, tops and shirts, like Western clothes, you can
Abhinandan: wear,
Manisha: you don't have to cover your head or whatever.
Abhinandan: On immigrants, I don't have a short take. I have a very long take. So I'll let it go. You
Manisha: believe in, um, take over the white land? Brown people must now.
Abhinandan: That's not how I worded, but yeah, I think there have to be a lot, the, it has to be a lot more liberal than it is in the West because. Their fortunes are based on the plunders that they did of us.
So
Manisha: they can't say.
Abhinandan: And of course, I really want to interview an Elon Musk fan because Elon Musk just tweeted now that we should, America should allow white migrants from South Africa. He said that? Yeah. So he's totally, fully out of the closet now as. So I mean, and cheerleaders because [01:34:00] like I'm on a group, many of the jackasses there.
I have no idea about what Elon Musk is saying, the political implications, you know, illiterates, but because Trump, Elon Musk, Modi, Trump, Elon Musk, they will share everything Elon Musk says. I'm like, you
Anand: see migrants in India. So you see, despite being a Bihari, I empathize with people. I don't have a good view of, say, some of our regional communities because the way they have treated Bihari migrants.
But there is also a view that if you overpopulate a limited area of land with workers, workers, workers, they may be exploiting you for your work and they may be giving you this self defeating compliment that you don't look [01:35:00] like a Bihari and Biharis are very happy to hear that, that you don't look like a Bihari.
And it's a self denying identity that, uh, and you say, you see in Punjab, Haryana. Tamil Nadu, these, these regional communities, Bihar is my neighbor. My neighbor has a very condescending attitude towards me. And because of Bihari. Yes. I get
-: it.
Anand: I will be happy to look like a Bihari. So, um, So, uh, because of the ways and, uh, sometimes I look at it in a detached way and look it from their point of view that, okay, so maybe, maybe here is a situation where they feel that they, uh, And this is a common refrain in a lot of Indian cities that this city was better 50 years back and now [01:36:00] in Bangalore and in Chennai.
But it's true because
Abhinandan: population has grown. For
Anand: that matter, for that matter, in even a small town like Patnase, I think it was better to 30, 40 years back, uh, because of, um, less people and more open space and also the kind of interactive pattern between people. But why this backlash that, that intrigues me means it intrigues me and this has to do with human nature and some of the complaints that people who have been originally living in a space for a number of decades have other.
Even if they are immoral, they are not unreasonable. Right. That is my
Manisha: Right.
Anand: Parag
Manisha: says Parag
Anand: Deb. Parag
Manisha: Deb says, I'm writing my first letter in six years as a loyal subscriber. I'm puzzled by the Kumbh Mela ritual where millions take a dip in a holy water to gain [01:37:00] spirituality. How can bathing in water that might be polluted lead to true spiritual cleansing?
As a believer and quote unquote technical Hindu, I find it hard to understand how dipping in unclean water can Bring about inner purity. I'm not trying to criticize, but rather to seek an explanation of this ancient practice in today's world. How does this ritual work to generate spirituality despite the water's imperfections?
I would appreciate my insight. You can provide on this curious mix of faith and modern challenges. Thank you for taking the time to consider my question.
Abhinandan: Faith is faith, but, uh, you know, some dip. In water, but you can see because rivers are so dirty. It's okay. I mean, you know In gurudwaras you take a dip in the kund in harmandir sahib in other places you bow in a particular direction In fact, the people who are very radical, you know, I have been told by a pilot relative of mine, when you fly international, they insist on reading namaz during namaz time.
Then I have to go tell them, dude, it's shifting, the Mecca is, [01:38:00] you have to keep, so, so I mean, so faith is unreasonable and irrational. So it's, there's nothing unique about taking a dip in a.
Raman: No, not only a dip. Uh, I think, uh, in future people are going to discuss how you should take a dip. Like a prime minister took a dip with red cloth.
Uh, you
Abhinandan: know, so
Raman: the entire, and all the anchors were talking about what is the, I mean, and they were spiritual experts were talking the relevance of red when you take a dip. So I think now that is also good.
Manisha: I know you want to comment on like the short history of Kumbh in terms like how does it,
Abhinandan: there's no short history of Kumbh.
Manisha: No, it has to be concise. It has to be concise. Anything about India does not have
Abhinandan: a solid history.
Manisha: No, but dipping in water during the Magh Mila, like, because you've had this ritual of I had a ritual? No, no, in Bihar na, woh jo dubki leta hai
Abhinandan: na, it's a, it's a very big thing na, in Chhatt pe. Chhatt, Chhatt, [01:39:00] Chhatt.
Is there any No, no,
Anand: Chhatt is a different thing. No, but the significance of water, dipping in water. Chhatt is, Chhatt is sun worship. So, uh, Shati is a very different thing and, uh, Shati is unique because, uh, the sunset is also worship as well as sunrise. So, um, uh, DP because, uh, BI is a riparian state with number of water bodies.
So, uh, that is one thing. Water. Of course, it throughout Indian culture is considered holy. So I don't, even if there is another significance, I'm not aware of that.
Manisha: Sumanth says for all the people who've gotten this far for maybe another free episode of Hafta, I request all of you to subscribe to News Laundry.
Abhinandan: Listen to Sumanth, here's the QR code. It'll keep flashing. Carry on. If
Manisha: it isn't free, please keep this free as well. This is free. So that all of you free hoarders [01:40:00] subscribe to Use Laundry. And what better day to do it than on our birthday week with a 13 percent discount. No, 1300 rupee discount. 1300 rupee, not 13%.
As a customer, I have never been this satisfied. Not dissatisfied, dissatisfied, especially with the ground reports, for example, the latest Kumbh Mela to Delhi elections. I highly recommend you all read that report by Basant which puts the figure, the debt toll at 79. I highly appreciate the NL leadership for taking feedback seriously and so please pay to keep news free.
My best effort to get people to subscribe so all the reports get a raise, all the reporters get a raise, I hope. Thank you, Sumanth. And the leadership also.
Abhinandan: Thank you, Sumanth. Please listen to Sumanth. Subscribe. QR code will keep flashing.
Manisha: I have used my 150 words on South Central. Please give that a read too.
All
Abhinandan: right.
Manisha: Perisai Teja says many abinandans to the NL team. Pun intended. Many abhinandans, okay, like that namaste type. [01:41:00] Okay. Thanks for reading my loophole written letter last week. Though this too is a handwritten letter, I assure you that care has been taken to respect the 150 word limit. It doesn't seem so though.
This one it has. It is 150 words. Yes. Blame needs to be placed as much at the bhakt. Slash people slash devotees who've gotten drunk on this Dharam Ka Nasha as the administration. Why otherwise would anyone go to dip oneself in an otherwise polluted liver in crowded circumstances? Wouldn't taking a regular bath in one's house, keeping man clean and praying at the local temple not suffice?
Issue two. I came across the media rumble discussion of Madhut Rehan and Arun Puri on 7th On 07 08 2018, so August 2018, where everyone is singing a different tune compared to their actions. Madhu often praised her brother for maintaining distance from the government of the time. Who is hoodwinked here, Madhu herself or subscribers or listeners?
Abhinandan: So I'll answer this question, Peri. One is, uh, you know, in 2018, I don't think India Today was as insane as it is now. Uh, but whatever my [01:42:00] view of India Today group, and this I'll just tell you because I I'm privy to these people and I've known them, uh, in, of course, she's Madhu's brother and, you know, family is family.
But on personal connections, because I have been in Delhi for 30 years longer in the news space, uh, Pranoy Roy and Arun were very careful never to socialize with politicians. And I've, I know this from my time back in the day. Uh, and that is something a lot of other editors and owners used to love doing.
And many of them built their relevance. Uh, I don't want to take names, but based on lunches, they only want to party, be invited to dinner with, and on these two people I know personally. So. Maybe Madhu meant personally, uh, because organizationally, of course, it's, uh, disgraceful the way India today conducts itself.
But I, I do note 20 years ago, and I, I have no reason to believe that's changed [01:43:00] unless absolutely necessary. Uh, Pranoy and Mr. Puri would not socialize, uh, with politicians. She's right on that.
-: Hmm.
Abhinandan: And, you know, sir, many people who we know only have gotten to journalism to do that. Well,
Manisha: Vinod Mehta in his book though said that he would lunch and dine with the Congress and then he'd do a story against them the next day.
So there's that also. There's that
Raman: also. And there are many anchors who, uh, the one such who is part of Congress now. He started, uh, just interviewing the politicians. What is his name? Who's part of Congress? Anupama's husband. The one Rajiv Shukla. Rajiv Shukla. Rajiv Shukla. He started his career just into interviewing the politicians.
That's it. Nothing else. And during those days when the TV wasn't so, uh, you know
Manisha: And he would give you a real slice of life in politicians. Like they talk about everything other than Politics. Nah. Himself. He, by his time ,
Anand: this Sanin, [01:44:00] yes.
Raman: Was my classmate. So I know
Manisha: Brad says, thanks, Anan for your recommendation.
Last week I read George Orwell's essay hanging. It was very heartwarming to hear life in full. Being attributed to a person about to be killed by a hanging, that's the empathy which is lacking in our world and it is precisely this lack of empathy, which is not nurtured or encouraged in our society, which produces violent criminals.
I think someone should interview Anand.
Abhinandan: Okay, I'll interview Anand next time. Anand, next week there's an interview, you and me, one hour interview. Nobody
Anand: has accused me of empathy.
Abhinandan: Right, so we have about seven emails left. We'll read those next time. Uh, because we are running out of time today, we've had a long hafta and I want to also next hafta, hopefully other than Delhi election, talk about the VC issue and the governors versus government's issue, but let's get the recommendations for the week.
Uh, you, let's go over it quickly because we are. way over time this hafta. Manisha, you want to start? [01:45:00] So
Manisha: I want to recommend Basant's reports from Prayagraj. Please watch the video on YouTube and please read the reports in English and Hindi and please circulate these on your WhatsApp groups even if you're watching this for free and if you for some reason you're not subscribing at least please.
Spread the word on the reporting that we do. So please make the effort to go on the link, read it and share it on your WhatsApp groups. And there's a mini series that I recently watched called The Sympathizer, which is very interesting. It's on Jio. It's about, uh, a communist spy in South Vietnam who goes to America.
Really fun with Robert Dowdy Jr.
Raman: in it. Raman Sir? No, I wanted to recommend Basant's text story as well as the video story which we are releasing today or maybe
Manisha: Yeah, it should be out by the time this is out.
Raman: So, so, so, uh, definitely Basant's story on comb and he is working on another good story, which you would Uh, see soon.
Um, and the second recommendation is, uh, [01:46:00] put up Bhanu Mehta, who wrote Trump wants to show the world who is boss. So it's a psychological, uh, uh, no, no, he, he, he Psychological profile, I mean, of course, uh, with the other elements, political and economic elements, beautifully written as usual, and he's done a pretty good job, and you get a very good understanding of, uh, Trump, uh, and, uh, third is today, uh, if anybody who is interested to know, uh, the for and against view against 12 Uh, you know, uh, exemption, um, to people who are earning 12 lakh or less.
So there is a beautiful, uh, article today in Indian Express. There's, uh, which is for and against. And, uh, the for has been written by, I'll just say. So, [01:47:00] uh, it gives you a very good, uh, uh, you know, uh, perspective on, uh, the budget main attraction, which is 2, 000, 000 rupees.
Anand: Right. So, yes, so I, just from the conversation itself, uh, about, uh, that, uh, democracy versus economic development.
Uh, so I, I'm not very fond of comparing different countries, particularly any country with a country of a scale of India, but a few, uh, Uh, uh, uh, thoughts that, uh, came compressed in, uh, like post-colonial societies was part of that, uh, conversation. And, uh, the idea of overdeveloped a state. So Hamza Alvi was.
Political theorist, he came overdeveloped state that post colonial societies [01:48:00] inherited from their colonial past. So the question is not of democracy, but who comes to boss over this overdeveloped state that the colonial powers set here and whoever is long in power here, 10 years, 15 years of whatever gets to boss over this overdeveloped state and instill values.
It's more of a, so Hamza Alawi's essay on that is my recommendation. Also, the idea of, say, managed anarchy. So, most of these post colonial societies became managed anarchy. The state power is basically directed towards managing the anarchy and also like a foreign service officer wrote in Nehru's time that our constitutional project is of course enforcing constitution but it is also concealing continuities, continuities with the [01:49:00] colonial state.
So the idea of concealment of continuities in a new republic. Uh, all these ideas basically are my recommendation to ponder over this question.
Manisha: I shall definitely read them.
Abhinandan: Right. I have three recommendations quickly. One of them is, uh, it's a newsletter on NPR. Why the AI world is suddenly obsessed with a 160 year old economics paradox.
The paradox is called Jevon's paradox. I recommend you read it. It's very interesting. The second is a podcast that was actually recommended to me by a subscriber, Dinesh Thakur, and I found it fascinating. And I, there were just so many. You know, parallels to India. It's called amicus with Dahlia Lithwick.
I think that's how you pronounce it. Trump's American takeover of justice courts and various institutions. It is fascinating. It is. really well researched and it's great commentary. So I recommend this. And the final recommendation is the [01:50:00] editorial, uh, by the times of India called thin skin seal lips, criminal defamation law injures free speech as a Delhi court noted as he should review the law.
Uh, this appeared, uh, in the times of India, uh, as they edit, uh, wherever they were moralizing. So do read that. And I would also highly recommend you read that because also open in front of me is a summon to Madhu, me, Manisha, uh, dated, uh, 5 3 22 under section 91 of the criminal procedure code. Me also? Yeah, you were also summoned.
You know, we handled it legally. For NL Cheat Sheet explained how to rictify RPS as well as publication of highly defamatory and derogatory remarks. Uh, so, uh, I was summoned. Meghnad was summoned. Manisha, even our interns were summoned. For criminal, uh, under section 95 criminal procedure code, uh, because, uh, towering news personalities.
Okay. This
Manisha: is a times case. Okay.
Abhinandan: Times case. So, uh, [01:51:00] I highly recommend this editorial times of India wrote on criminal defamation, but more importantly, maybe times of India get your. Sister concerns. Sister concerns to read this before you paylo gyaan to others. To thoda kam gyaan payla karo, pehle khud pe lagu karo.
Kisi
Raman: ne case kiya hua, that is why they came up with this.
Abhinandan: Bakhwaas. I thought
Manisha: kuch naya notice aagaya hai.
Abhinandan: Itne notice hai, I have lost count. I have a folder, legal. Income tax vs News Laundry. India Today vs News Laundry. Times Sarkaal Times vs News Laundry. So my folder, in fact, I'm running out of space on my laptop because of that.
So I'll probably have to get a drive separately for that. But thank you, dear subscribers, our 13th anniversary. Now is when we get really combative. Right now, we were just chilling. We were warming up. Now we get serious. So support us. The QR code will flash. Thank you for a wonderful producer, Priyali.
Thank you, Anil, wonderful sound [01:52:00] recordist. Thank you, Anand. Manisha. Thank you, Raman sir. Thank
Raman: you.
Abhinandan: Thank you all. We will leave you on this uplifting song because our birthday makes everything uplift.
Raman: Aw.
Thank
Manisha: you for your subscription. You are changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts. And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad free and subscriber funded.
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