This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Jayashree Arunachalam and Anand Vardhan are joined by author and political analyst Sanjaya Baru.
The discussion begins with Donald Trump being sworn in as the 47th President of the United States of America. The panel analyses the fears of a second Trump presidency. “He will do a lot of damage, yes, but the fear of Trump is greatly exaggerated,” Sanjaya says, adding that India, and the world, historically, has shown the ability to withstand imperialist powers.
Jayashree adds, “Trump comes off as unhinged, but he is the essence of what America is like.”
The panel also addresses the Indian media’s exaggeration of Foreign Minister S Jaishankar’s presence in the ‘front row’ at Trump’s swearing-in ceremony. Commenting on India-US relations, Manisha says, “The Joe Biden administration was kind to Narendra Modi’s administration…if Trump is not accommodative, it will affect BJP’s ‘vishwaguru’ politics domestically.”
The panel also discusses how the CBI and TMC government are appealing for the death penalty in the RG Kar case, and catches up on all the subscriber letters we’ve received so far.
Tune in!
Hafta letters: #Fight to Breathe, too many opinions, break up songs, NL merch
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Song: Village People: YMCA
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements
00:03:04 - Baru on his book ‘India’s Power Elite’
00:08:12 - Headlines
00:20:28 - The return of Donald Trump
00:40:43 - Economic impact of a second Trump presidency
00:55:27 - Sanjaya on Manmohan Singh
01:02:43 - Sanjaya’s recommendations
01:04:43 - Death penalty
01:16:44 - Letters
01:59:46 - Recommendations
References
The Accidental Prime Minister: The Making and Unmaking of Manmohan Singh
1991: How PV Narasimha Rao Made History
Sanjaya Baru writes: Fears of a Trump presidency are greatly exaggerated
Endangered and unpaid: Mukesh Chandrakar’s life symbolised the Bastar media story
Let’s Talk About: Kashmir – Part 1
Recommendations
Sanjaya
The Golden Road : How Ancient India Transformed the World
Jayashree
‘The first week was mayhem’ – How This American Life revolutionised radio
Death penalty report: On death row, they die many deaths
Manisha
Black Warrant
Abhinandan’s interview with Sunil Gupta and Sunetra Choudhary
Is Social Media More Like Cigarettes or Junk Food?
Anand
Manu Joseph - A right that women don’t have is the right to mediocrity
Abhinandan
'Face of Capitol riot’ on being pardoned by Trump and regretting "nothing" about January 6
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters
Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Anil Kumar.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry Podcast and you're listening to NL
Abhinandan: Hafta.
Today, luckily, we have in house panel joining us. Before I introduce the panel, I just want to remind you that the Delhi election is less than two weeks away. We have at least five to six reporters on the ground. Manisha has also been on the ground, so has Atul, so has Srinivasan Jain, Anmol. Uh, Basant, Sumedha,
Manisha: Krishti, everyone.
And all this is
Abhinandan: only possible because you guys contribute because we are an ad free platform. We do not take any ads, especially during elections. You shall see. Suddenly there's so many ads about how governments are doing so well or political party ads. And proxy ads, Kumbh ads are all over FM, uh, and journalism should be funded [00:01:00] by you.
So here's the QR code, you can scan it, pay to keep news free because when the public pays, the public is served. When advertisers, whether corporates or governments and political parties pay, political parties, governments and corporates are served. You can also click in the link in the show notes below and contribute to our NL Sena project so that you can power our journalism which you have been doing for the last 13 years now.
We'll be 13 years old next month.
Manisha: Teenage years.
Abhinandan: Teenage years, yes. So uh.
Manisha: Rebellion begin.
Abhinandan: Yeah, now we'll become rebellious. Any of you thought that we were?
Manisha: Maybe we were just adolescent toddlers. Now we will flex.
Abhinandan: Uh, so let me, uh, introduce the panel. Anand is yet to join us. He is on his way. He's been taking his law exams.
But Manisha is finally here after a lot, hectic few weeks. After
Manisha: a week's
Abhinandan: break.
Manisha: Can't call it hectic because I was on a break.
Abhinandan: Yeah, but before that. Uh, then joining us. Uh, from her usual headquarter in Chennai is Jayshree, our [00:02:00] editor of all things. And our guest today is Mr. Sanjay Bahru. Thank you, Mr. Bahru, for joining us.
Good morning. Uh, I'm sure most of our listeners and viewers already know who you are, but as an Aupcharikta, formality, I shall do the introduction. Uh, Mr. Bahru is an author. He's an academic, a political scientist. He has been a journalist, The top positions at the Business Standard, Chief Editor at Financial Express, uh, at the Economic Times and Times of India as well.
He was Associate Editor there. He was an official spokesman and media advisor to the Prime Minister of India, who was Dr. Manmohan Singh at the time, from May 2004 till August 2008. And right now he is the Distinguished Fellow at the Institute of Defense Studies and Analysis, also called IDSA. And has authored several books, including The Accidental Prime Minister, The Making and Unmaking of Manmohan Singh, 1991, How P.
V. Narasimha Rao Made History. That's 2016, India's Power Elite 2021. The link is in the show notes if you want to order these books and read them [00:03:00] if you haven't already. And also in the link is his latest column in the Express, Fears of a Trump presidency are greatly exaggerated. Uh, so Mr. Bharu, before we get into the Trump aspect, Trump in India, just a couple of questions about your books, uh, India's Power Elite, can you just tell our viewers a little bit and me what it's about?
Sanjaya: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. I remember appearing. Almost a decade back, I think. Um, so it's been a long time since I've come back to this website and let me compliment you for being an independent, uh, subscription driven website. I like what you said about advertising and more power to your voice and, uh, to your show.
So
Abhinandan: thank you.
Sanjaya: I'm honored to be. On this panel.
Abhinandan: Thank you.
Sanjaya: Power Elite is a book I wrote about, uh, what now? Three years back, India's Power Elite. Um, it was inspired by a book of the same title written in the 1950s in the United States, [00:04:00] uh, by a sociologist called C. Wright Mills. Um, and, and I was just thinking the other day how contemporary that book of the 1950s is in today's America.
He wrote about the post war, uh, military industrial complex, the oligarchy in America, uh, taking charge of American democracy in the fifties, uh, and how after the war, the military industry had become so powerful in the U. S. and they're exporting arms around the world in the name of Cold War, et cetera.
And that book inspired me to write, uh, India's Power Review, in which I look at the change, uh, in the nature of the Indian Power Review. To put it in a nutshell, I don't want to go on and on about the book, uh, but to put it in a nutshell, I take a quote from Ramanohar Lohia, who wrote in the 1960s about the Nehruvial era.
Saying that, you know, India is governed by a power elite defined by three features. He said, [00:05:00] feature number one is they're all English speaking. Feature number two, they all have inherited wealth. And feature number three is, um, that, you know, they're mostly upper caste. Almost all upper caste. And I show how on all these three indicators.
Uh, India has changed, uh, it is no longer English speaking the elite today, I mean you go to most of North India, the most powerful people are in Hindi, in Gujarat is Gujarati, you know, in Tamil Nadu is Tamil, so the powerful elite, the wealthy and the, uh, powerful elite. are no longer the English speaking elite.
Um, inherited wealth, no longer true. A large number of businessmen are first generation entrepreneurs. I mean, there are still some elite business, but you know, whether it's an Infosys or many, many companies are not first generation. And third and most importantly, the upper castes are no longer as powerful as the middle caste, the OBCs.
Um, and even the BJP, which was a [00:06:00] very upper caste. Brahmin Baniya Party, as it used to be called during Vajpayee's time, is now very much an OBC dominated party. So I look at this transition, uh, not just in politics, but in bureaucracy, in the military, uh, in the academia, in the media, and that's what this book is about.
That's a brief introduction to my last.
Abhinandan: We will check. We will check it out. But before we get to the headlines, two quick points, uh, another aspect is that in, in Delhi, uh, in the nineties, before nineties, all the nightclubs where the elite partied used to only play English songs. Now there will be a Punjabi song.
So Diljeet yo. Uh, now if you play an English song, the answer will be empty. No one's going to dance. Secondly, I mean, I take your point to an extent. I mean, I'm sure there may be some disagreements on that. But in media, Newslaundry takes out an annual report, which we haven't for the past two years because Nobody has the guts to [00:07:00] actually, uh, sponsor the entire study because it takes about six months.
We looked at the English and Hindi media, uh, the newspapers and the broadcast channels, uh, the biggest six or seven, if I'm not wrong, uh, English and Hindi and all the Um, top editorial positions are upper caste men and that hasn't changed. So at least as far as English and Hindi speaking media is concerned, that dominance stays.
It is, and it is getting them to acknowledge that caste is like extracting. A molar from a healthy jaw. Uh, let me,
Sanjaya: let me get in on that. You're absolutely right. As far as editor, editorial positions are concerned. But two points, one ownership structures have changed. It is no longer the Marwadis alone who control media, particularly Indian language media across the country.
A lot of OBC businesses, uh, who are powerful politicians, uh, like in Tamil [00:08:00] Nadu, for example, or even in, uh, who have become media owners. Uh, and secondly, of course, editors are no longer important, so, you
Abhinandan: know, that is really extracting a silver lining from a very dark cloud, but yeah, it's well extracted, uh, but uh, we will get into the discussion, but before that, the headlines.
Jayashree: Okay, so here are the headlines for the week. Donald Trump was sworn in as the 47th President of the U. S. on Monday, and he signed a slew of executive orders. Amongst other things, he seeks to stop automatic citizenship by birth. He announced a plan to declare a national emergency at the southern border of America.
He withdrew the U. S. from the WHO and the Paris Climate Agreement. He pardoned about 1, 500 of his supporters who had been arrested for the Capitol attack. And he also unbanned TikTok. And danced.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Jayashree: And he also says there are only two genders, genders [00:09:00] in the U. S.,
Abhinandan: in the U. S. Right.
Jayashree: Now, soon after the swearing in, our External Affairs Minister S.
Jayashankar said, it's very clear the Trump administration is prioritizing the bilateral relationship with India. He also met the new Secretary of State Marco Rubio and NSA Mike Walz.
Abhinandan: And to underline just how confident America, uh, India is, uh, and how secure we are in our position, uh, Anjana Amkashyap interviewed a fake Donald Trump and got very excited when he mentioned India and she in an accent said, Oh, you're walking in India.
That
Jayashree: man really looked like a blow
Abhinandan: up doll of Trump. So the Indian media underlined our importance. Thank you.
Jayashree: And yes, also New Delhi has expressed its readiness to cooperate with the U. S. to repatriate approximately 18, 000 undocumented migrants. This was reported by Bloomberg. Now in Delhi, both the BJP and AAP released their manifestos this week.
They promised to continue with existing welfare schemes. The BJP is also giving free education from KG to PG, 15, 000 rupee [00:10:00] one time assistance to aspirants in need, 1, 000 rupees monthly for SC students, and setting up a welfare board for taxi drivers and domestic workers.
Abhinandan: Every FM ad, no matter which party is doing it, is Pyaari Behen, Meri Behna, Achchi Ladki.
Yes. Schemes from 1500 2500, everyone's getting.
Jayashree: Lovely. Beautiful. Then, uh, the 2024 World Economic Forum kicked off in Davos this week with a call for collaboration for the intelligent age. Many Indian leaders, including Devendra Fadnavis, Smriti Irani, Ashwini Vaishnav, are present. Donald Trump also spoke virtually at the event where he demanded lower oil prices and interest rates.
He also warned of tariffs if countries make their products anywhere but the U. S. There's also that Chandrababu Naidu was doing a series of photo shoots, no? I think everybody was very confused by it. Hmm. Huh. That's the, one of [00:11:00] the most important people at Davos. Calcutta court this week declared Sanjay Roy guilty in the rape and murder of a doctor at RJ Kerr Medical Hospital.
The CBI and the TMC government have both moved the Calcutta High Court seeking a death sentence for Roy. I have a huge problem with this. I think so in the Sessions court. gave the sentence saying there won't be a death penalty. They pointed out a bunch of, uh, issues saying there was some issues with the evidence and so on.
And they said in the realm of modern justice, we should rise above what is primitive and therefore you should not give the death sentence. We should not be looking at eye for an eye or nail for a nail or whatever. What everyone is seized upon is that, yes, they're not saying This is a rarest of rare case.
So therefore, we must push for the death sentence. And I just find that incredibly barbaric. I think we can discuss paying for blood for it now, especially when there was so much doubt there were allegations that, Oh my God, is there a cover up? Was it not a cover up? And after all that to then say, no, but this man must be put to death is.
[00:12:00] Next, the Delhi High Court on Tuesday told the prosecution it cannot endlessly hear submissions against the bail applications of Omar Khalid, Sharjeel Imam and six others in the riots case. It said, this has to end. This needs to end now.
Abhinandan: Hmm. I mean, I love the observations that many courts give, but I just wish they'd give an order.
Jayashree: The JDU has sacked its Manipur unit chief for issuing a letter saying the party has withdrawn support to the BGP government in Manipur, which is quite embarrassing.
Abhinandan: What I'm very surprised about, the JDU has a Manipur unit.
Jayashree: A Delhi court on Monday ordered the seizure of two paintings by late artist M. F.
Hussain. These were on display at the Delhi Art Gallery. Following a complaint, they were allegedly offensive. The paintings featured Hanuman and Ganesha.
Abhinandan: Uh, although, I mean, of course, worrying and unfortunate as this is because this should not be a trigger for now a whole series of sees every [00:13:00] painting and every as it is they are coming down on everything from what you eat to what you wear to you and what you draw now but in extracting a silver lining from a dark cloud the court did reject demands for an FIR.
Jayashree: It said the investigation is done so what is the point? But also another silver lining was that, uh, I think it was last year, the Bombay High Court pulled up the customs department. Yeah. Because there were two paintings or whatever by Akbar Fadamsi and said, you cannot destroy them. Not everything that is naked is obscene.
Abhinandan: As the kumbh demonstrates. That is
Jayashree: quite obscene.
Abhinandan: Although I would, although I would just like to point out. A story that I had told about when I had gone to the Kumbh, which was the holiest of holy Kumbhs in my 44 years. This is that one
Jayashree: you told on Hafta, couple of weeks ago. Yes, when I
Abhinandan: tried to do a dubki and it's so shallow that your head stays out.
So I had to crawl. I had to like, rengo. Even our honourable defence minister, [00:14:00] when he did a dubki, he could not go in because he stopped here. So it's a problem that is just not faced by me, it's faced by a lot of people. Just
Manisha: go a little
Abhinandan: deeper. There's a chain there. If you go a little deeper, you'll fall off the cliff.
sedimentation. So the thing gets formed like this. So you're on that and there's a chain.
Jayashree: I sent Manisha an excellent screenshot from the Times of India though, which while reporting on Yogi Adityanath and his cabinet taking a dip and it's The report said, in an unhinged moment, Adityanath splashed water at his ministers.
I think
Manisha: they wanted to say uninhibited, but it said in an unhinged moment, Chief Minister Yogesh Adityanath was seen splashing water. I wonder if they corrected it.
Abhinandan: Maybe they meant it. How do you know? Maybe they
Manisha: did.
Jayashree: Right. Uh, in more serious news, CBI filed a charge sheet against Oxfam India and its executive director for allegedly violating the FCRA.
Mm. The Kerala Assembly has passed a resolution urging the union government to withdraw the [00:15:00] draft UGC regulations 2025. Amongst other things, these rules exclude state governments from Vice Chancellor search committees. So chief Mr. Stalin has also pushed back against the UGC rules. He's asked why should the governor hold the post of BC when the university is funded by the state.
Abhinandan: In fact, something called the conclave on UGCA amendments. Uh, rules, whatever, you know, they've, they've called it, uh, Kerala. All three have come out saying that there's these rules, uh,
Jayashree: I mean, all states which have huge numbers of universities and colleges and other news of states pushing back against governors in Karnataka.
The state government is preparing for a legal battle with its own governor. This is after he returned four bills that had been sent for assent. Governor Gaylord is also yet to approve three other bills. The Uttarakhand cabinet approved, approved the Uniform Civil Code rules on Monday, though this with this Uttarakhand will become the first Indian state to have a [00:16:00] Uniform Civil Code after independence.
Abhinandan: So do we have the draft of what that Uniform Civil Code is or it's not public yet?
Manisha: It's public. It's what it was, what they announced. Okay. So that will be notified. The features of living in and all that. Yeah.
Abhinandan: I see. Okay.
Jayashree: In a tragic accident in Jalgaon, 13 passengers of the Mumbai bound Pushpak Express died on Wednesday.
This is after they got off the train and were run over by a Karnataka Express that was heading in the other direction. They're claiming there was a rumor that there was a fire and people jumped off the train in panic.
Abhinandan: In fact, this happened a few years ago also. The chain was pulled and people got off and got run over.
Jayashree: That was I think a passenger train in Bombay. A union government body has sent notices to Ola and Uber over alleged differential pricing for Android and Apple phones. This is a new announced by Consumer Affairs Minister. How many of you have Apple phones though?
Manisha: I have Apple. So what can you just explain to me?
If I have an Apple phone, it's more expensive? I don't know. That's what they
Jayashree: say. They're saying after [00:17:00] the OS 18 update or whatever, people are claiming that people on Apple are having higher They're getting higher prices. That doesn't make sense though.
Abhinandan: I mean, I don't know. It's, I mean, it's possible.
Cause
Jayashree: it's usually distance traffic. I feel like nobody would have heard of an ecophone. It's cheap and good and Chinese. I'll get the cheapest prices on. Ola and Uber.
Abhinandan: But G knows exactly what you're saying to who, when, how.
Jayashree: And he knows I'm saying a lot of shit, so I think it's fine. And finally, Israel on Sunday released 90 Palestinians in exchange for three hostages held in Gaza by Hamas.
This is as part of the ceasefire deal.
Manisha: And those are the headlines. You missed out on the most important headline of the week, Saif Ali Khan's Miraculous recovery in the hospital that everyone's really worried about. Everyone is discussing it. Although the entire prime time was about how did he recover so soon after being stabbed?
Something is amiss. Ministers are
Jayashree: also saying, you know, like, why is he left so quickly? Yeah, why blame the media?
Manisha: Narayan [00:18:00] Rane and Nitish
Abhinandan: Rane and
Manisha: Sanjay Nirupam also that this is very strange and they're going into the discussions on maybe he's very healthy or maybe Leelavati has a new machine which can really it's nuts
Abhinandan: and
Manisha: it's really sad that they're the victims in the case and they're being asked the most number of questions
Abhinandan: but where is Kareena
Manisha: Kapoor, YSF not clarifying they are the victims in the case why are you spending all your time But I mean,
Abhinandan: I mean, while I have sympathy for them at one level, but at another level, it is the same group that owns Filmfare.
It's the same group that will call them for conclaves. They will dance there next week. Uh, and then they'll happily, you know, go and maru salute them and tell them to piss off. Yeah. Anyway. So, uh, do you
Jayashree: guys think it's very, um, convenient that the attacker in this case is now they're saying, yes, he's a Magladeshi illegal migrant.
He came to India, assumed a Hindu name and is living in disguise or that. [00:19:00] I feel like it just ties in very conveniently with many things that people are talking about. So
Manisha: he could very well be a Bangladesh. I mean, that is not, I'm sorry, but I don't know about the Hindu name and all that's, yeah, he doesn't need to have a Hindu name.
He can just have a Muslim name with a, he is living under some name, know some
Jayashree: assumed name that
Manisha: he would probably do maybe just for a new card or whatever identity. It doesn't have to be Hindu, it can just be Muslim. I am highly suspicious.
Abhinandan: Anyway, I have no view on either of these. But, uh, before we get into the discussion on US, India and related topics, uh, with Mr.
Bharu, just want to remind everybody, here's the QR code for a subscription. I urge you to subscribe to pay2keep news free. Power our journalism and our journalists. Uh, here's a little message. From our team covering the election.[00:20:00]
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Abhinandan: Uh, so, uh, you know, let me kick off with Mr. Baru, you know, I read your piece, Fears of a Trump Presidency are greatly exaggerated and there have been, has been kind of similar commentary I've seen it even in the US media and depending on, you know, who you speak to. But at the same time, I saw this one video, which I hope I can provide the link to [00:21:00] where, uh, these three, um, academics sit and dissect his last term, that these are the things he promised.
And actually he delivered on most of those, no matter how, uh, you know, people may have laughed it off. Um, and even in the interview he, uh, gave recently to Fox and even so much in the World Economic Forum when he addressed it via satellite from America. I mean, at the World Economic Forum to say that incompetent for years of last year is shitting on your own administration.
I find that bizarre.
Donald Trump: My administration is acting with unprecedented speed to fix the disasters we've inherited from a totally inept group of people. And to solve every single crisis facing our country. This begins with confronting the economic chaos caused by the failed policies of the last administration.
Abhinandan: But he actually, in the past also, some have argued, delivered no matter how destructive and unconstitutional his promises may have appeared. [00:22:00] And it's his fourth day as we record this today. Uh, and there are fears. Uh, I mean, I don't know whether you, I mean, you have been at senior positions at financial papers, the Indian stock market performing so dismally in the last couple of months, especially does it have to do with the Trump effect?
But why, A, do you think people are so afraid of his rhetoric? And B, why do you think it is an overreaction and it's, it's just rhetoric? It will not lead to anything.
Sanjaya: Well, first of all, I don't think it's just rhetoric. That's not what I meant when I said, uh, we need not fear Trump. Uh, he might end up doing everything that he has said he will do, or at least he will try to.
Um, the point I'm making is that this is not the first time the United States is throwing its weight around. The world has dealt with an all powerful United States in the immediate post war period, in the 50s. It has dealt with an all powerful [00:23:00] United States in the post Cold War period, in the early 90s.
And we are once again dealing with a very powerful United States today. But the world has changed. In the 50s, a much weaker India, under the leadership of John Lennon, withstood a lot of the pressures that the Americans put on us. Of course, at that time, we had the Soviet Union to turn to, and today we don't.
In the early 90s, when the Soviet Union was no longer there, we still withstood, we still withstood a lot of pressure and we went on to declare ourselves a nuclear weapons power in 98. Uh, United States imposed sanctions, but we withstood those sanctions. Many other countries in the world withstood. The Vietnamese fought a war and won that war.
The Afghans fought a war and won that war. So the point I'm trying to make is that there's a lot of scaremongering happening. Uh, and, and a lot of inspired scaremongering. I mean, I hinted at that in my column. I didn't say it in so many words. But I think a lot of people who [00:24:00] are doing the scaremongering hope to be the, you know, lobbyists who will try to help you.
Uh, you know, uh, stay away from the wrath of Donald Trump, whether in Washington, D. C. or in other capitals of the world, including our own. They're
Abhinandan: creating a market for their services.
Sanjaya: They are creating a market for themselves. Absolutely. And India has shown its ability to withstand imperialist power from a hundred years.
We fought the British Empire. So we are a post colonial nation that has a history of standing up to the West, which is a long history. And therefore, I don't think at least we in India should worry. Of course, Trump will try. Trump will try to hurt us. Many countries, including us, the countries that are worried are countries that have become excessively dependent on the United States, whether it's Europe or Japan.
Europe did not invest in its defense, and suddenly when Putin walked into [00:25:00] Ukraine, uh, all the Europeans ran to Washington, you know, saying Ba, the same thing with the Japanese. As they're unable to deal with China, they're running to Washington. They are worried and they ought to be worried because they neglected their own defense.
I, in fact, edited a book a couple of years ago called, uh, Shinzo, the importance of Shinzo Abe. Uh, which is a collection of essays in which I brought together essays to focus on what was the role of Shinzo Abe. Why was he significant in Japan? He is the first prime minister after the war who actually told the Japanese, let's stand on our own feet.
And people forget that even today, Japan is an occupied country. American troops that walked in in 1945 are still on Japanese soil. They are still on German soil. They are still in Korean soil. So America has been an occupying force in many countries where these countries have neglected their own national interests.
And I think the message for the world today is Trump is saying America first. Hello? [00:26:00] Okay, America first. Let us all also realize we have to be Japan first, Germany first, India first. We have to look at home. And see what is it we can do on our own, rather than, you know, bend and crawl and, you know, uh, go in front of Lord Trump and hope he will, you know, do nice things for us.
I don't think that era is over, even if it were there in the past. That period is over because America is now worried that China is overtaking them, particularly in high technology and science. So I think this fear of Trump is exaggerated. He will do a lot of damage. I'm not saying he won't do damage. Of course he'll do damage.
Americans have done enormous damage around the world over the last 70 years.
Abhinandan: No doubt. So a couple of things before I get Manisha and Jayshree to jump in. One is, to your point, I remember I was in Okinawa in 2000 2001 where the main American base is.
Sanjaya: We were there at the same time. I was in Okinawa around that time.
Abhinandan: I was there for a film festival. I'm guessing you were [00:27:00] not there for a film festival. If I, no, I
Sanjaya: was there for a conference on globalization, . I was there
Abhinandan: for a, I went
Sanjaya: to the teahouse August moon. I dunno if you went to the Teahouse August. No, no. We,
Abhinandan: in fact, it was Iran. I mean, funnily enough, the, um, film festival was being hosted in the American base, uh, in their auditorium.
Uh, so no, I only had a beef burger at their canteen The fried can see. But if this
Jayashree: was a Bollywood movie, you look at an old photograph and then, and these background spot. Sanjay is standing.
Abhinandan: Documentary in fact won an award there, but just about a week or 10 days before it started, there had been a rape of an American, of a Japanese girl by two American Marines who had been hurriedly sent away.
And I remember asking around that, you know, when something like this happens, doesn't the, I mean, I can't imagine a foreign, this thing here. I mean, the embassy would be pretty set to light by mob here. And that it was a really weird relationship between. The [00:28:00] local Japanese pride yet tolerating something like this because those two were not brought to book in the Japanese courts, they were sent back to America.
Jayashree: Wow.
Abhinandan: And, uh, and apparently this wasn't the first time it happened. Often these young American Marines would get drunk and do something stupid there and then they Damage control had to be done. And then they'd host these, you know, cultural exchange programs. But so, yeah, I take your point to that. But, you know, specifically, uh, I think the 50s America and, uh, or just the world politics and now is very different.
A, India needs a lot more than Europe or Japan needs. Like the level of poverty that we need to address here is. Not a patch there. Uh, and America first at the cost. I mean, I agree with you. America's always also for itself done some very selfish things, but it has done stuff like, you know, heavily fund the UN or the World Health Organization.
You know, we can say 10 things that they did wrong in handling the pandemic, which again is [00:29:00] hindsight is 2020. They have eradicated various, uh, you know, disease and illnesses. From across the world, especially parts of Africa, which actually have the most to lose and the World Health Organization has done that.
It wasn't some other organization. WHO also, and I know for a fact because I, I have actually made films for that sector in the early 2000s. They work with NGOs on the ground to do some very good work. And all that money, much of that money comes from the U. S. And if the U. S. has made so much money at the cost of others, purely selfishly, I mean, you can call it guilt money.
We have done 20 sins and then have made a, you know, go donate something to an ashram. But even that does some good for Trump to outright say, you know, hell with the world is destructive at a level which I, I mean, of course I don't have your experience or I haven't read as much as you. It's unprecedented as far as you know what I see and especially you know the kind of thing he's done like for example him [00:30:00] pardoning all those rioters and he was asked at a press conference that some of those rioters that he pardoned first of all one third of them have previous What we call history cheaters, criminal backgrounds, uh, at least a dozen of them actually attacked a policeman and when he was asked, why did you pardon them?
Donald Trump: You would agree that it's never acceptable to assault a police officer, right? So then if I can, among those you pardoned, D. J. Rodriguez, he drove a stun gun into the neck of a D. C. police officer who was abducted by the mob that day. He later confessed on video to the FBI and pleaded guilty for his crimes.
Why does he deserve a pardon? Well, I don't know. Is it a pardon because we're looking at commutes and we're looking at pardons? Okay, well, we'll take a look at everything. But I can say this. Murderers today are not even charged. You have murderers that aren't charged. All over. So these people have already served a long period of time and I made a decision to give a pardon.
Abhinandan: And at least one police union has called it a betrayal. That this guy killed a [00:31:00] cop and they, they had actually endorsed Trump. So, I mean, it's destructive in a way with too many things are blowing up at the same time. So in that sense, the chaos that at least it appears, and of course it may be. His style, you know,
Jayashree: make
Abhinandan: chaos happen and then seem like the guy who can address it, uh, is something that is new for, I guess, many of us, but,
Sanjaya: uh, that is precisely why I wrote the following because a lot of young people today who have really little understanding of history, uh, are imagining that we are in a new world.
And I'm saying, you've seen this, you know, game before, but the second point I'm making is that. The United States today is in fact not in a position to be as destructive as it was in the past because it is, its power is not as much as it is being claimed. It has enormous power in certain areas like artificial intelligence or the new technologies [00:32:00] and it's Up to us to take a view that, okay, we need all of that.
We'll go and bend in front of them. We'll crawl in front of them in order to get all of this, right? That's one way of dealing with the world. And that's the view that says, oh my God, America is going to deny me visas. America is going to deny me technology. I will go and crawl in front of America. The other response, which is what I'm hoping there would be, you say, okay, you guys don't want to help me.
I can stand on my own feet. And see when a bully enters a neighborhood, there are two ways you react to a bully. Either you surrender to the bully or you stand up to the bully. I'm not saying he's not a bully. I'm not saying what he will do will not be destructive. All I'm saying is don't be scared. Learn to stand up.
And we have the ability to do that as a country. I think the problem with the Indian elite today. There's so many of their children now live in the United States, you know, look at the power elite. My last chapter of my book, India's Power Elite, my last chapter was titled, [00:33:00] Cessation of the Successful. That got such a tremendous response that I have now written a whole book on this.
Jayashree: It's
Sanjaya: going to come out in the middle of 2025. The title of the book is Cessation of the Successful. And what I'm looking is, is it elite migration? You take the top, uh, you know, the elite of this country with, in any field, the children are all in the United States. What is the biggest news in the last 24 hours that Trump will not give citizenship to those all in the U.
S.? Come on in America.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Sanjaya: You know, come on. I mean, how long? Humara kya lena
Abhinandan: dena? But, yeah, of course, starting with our foreign minister, Mr. Jaishankar, but yeah, Jaishree want to come in first after that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jayashree: I
Abhinandan: mean, I have a
Jayashree: bunch of things to say, but I first want to specifically talk about what Sanjaya said, which is that I agree in part with a great deal of what he said, because I think, um, the issue with Trump that we have with Trump is that he comes off as so unhinged.
So therefore we think he's an, he's sort of exceptional when I feel [00:34:00] he's the very essence of what America is like just without all the. We want someone like Obama, who has that polish and charm and charisma and will tell you what his top 10 books are every single month even though he's going to send the same drones anyway, it doesn't matter.
But with Trump, we're like, oh my god, he doesn't even bother with all that kind of attention, he just tells you flat out, and for us, that is alarming. And I think Sanjay made some great pieces in his piece, I think you said, um, you said the US anyway never places Its own, its needs below any other countries.
It always engages in new walls and that is just the sense of what the US does. And I think this entire idea that there is a rules-based liberal international order is nonsense. I think America has is an always has been the biggest disruptor of it. I think it's a liberal hallucination to pretend otherwise that this order even exists.
And yes, I think things are likely to change in. The U. S. I do agree that things like the WHO, I think the America funds, what, 18 percent of WHO programs. So those are huge [00:35:00] and shocking changes. But in essence, I just see him following the same path of what every American predestined has done until now.
It's just without that kind of artifice, without some sort of artificiality of how they operate. But also with respect to the executive orders, I think it is worth looking at some of them. So the, we all know the birthright citizenship one, uh, has now been sort of stayed by a federal judge. See there are some things that Trump will do and can do and there is no legal stoppage to what he does.
For example, he can rename the Gulf of Mexico, which he has done. The rest of the world may not. follow what he says, but that is fine. He can lift the ban on TikTok. However, stuff like withdrawing from the WHO because America joined the WHO by an act of Congress. So there is a legal hurdle for the entire withdrawal.
But yes, he can withdraw from the Paris Accord because it is a voluntary thing. So I think there is some space for nuance on how to play out. But My overall sense is that Trump is very much an American president. He is America's president. This is [00:36:00] just sort of the example that has been followed for this long.
It's
Abhinandan: typical. So speaking of bullies, I mean, I, I would think I'm, you know, my personal view is that, I mean, that is also the playbook of half prime minister and home minister. Uh, and, uh, the media. Kind of follows that very easily. I have never seen them so casually bullied into, uh, servility. Uh, and I joined NewsTrack in 95.
So it's, I don't have a career as, uh, accomplished as Mr. Baruz, but I have seen from the Doordarshan VHS. News track days to news laundry today, um, there was always fear, but this kind of, so in that sense, all the media and, you know, Manisha, you track the media very closely for nuisance. The whole thing that, Oh, Jai Shankar is given the first row seat.
I mean, there was a pretty full show on it. Yeah. I mean, talking off of our media and if our media is a reflection of how, uh, the establishment, cause I see them as an extension of the establishment voice. If they get so excited, if Jai Shankar gets a front row [00:37:00] seat or, uh, you know, they're saying, oh, don't worry that Modi wasn't invited.
He'll have a separate party for Modi. I mean, there was actually an anchor saying this.
Manisha: So,
Abhinandan: while Mr. Baru's point is well taken, that You don't know how to deal with a bully by, you know, bowing before them, uh, media anchors take note, uh, aren't we doing that by actually doing exactly that?
Manisha: Actually, that's a very interesting point you raise because one of the key pieces for the Modi government and its popularity and again, it coming back.
The third time is it's foreign policy and what it's made it out to be in the media, the Vishwa guru, the America is our bestie. They need us. They want us. And it's actually very comical to see a lot of anchors who landed up in us for the inauguration to go on harping on how important India is. So the whole thing of Jai Shankar being in the front row anchors went to the length of saying that, you know, he's, you know, he wanted India to be right in his line of vision or even going on to say that, you [00:38:00] know, Keep harping on the point that we are very important.
We are very precious for them. And if Trump does not reciprocate in that way, I think Biden administration had been very kind to the Modi administration in that sense. It really gave him, including the fact that Modi did not want to address a press conference, but they came to this, you know, deal that, okay, just take one or two questions or whatever.
When Biden came here, there was no press briefing. So I think they were very accommodative to the Modi government. If Trump is not as accommodative, it'll get difficult for domestic politics for the BJP because a lot of it rides on the world looks at us, the world wants us, the world can't deal with us.
Personally, on the whole Trump thing, I'm just too bamboozled by him to make sense of him. Every time I see him talk, I'm just like, what is this person? So I really can't make sense of how evil or how bad or how good he's going to be. But to me, the troubling aspect is the, is Elon
Abhinandan: Musk. The power he wields.
The
Manisha: power he wields. I think just yesterday saw Sam Altman [00:39:00] kind of issued this statement saying that Musk would be very happy with OpenAI if he owned it. His only problem is that he doesn't own it and he's a bully and this thing in him to destroy whatever he doesn't own is very scary and for a person with that kind of power and money and together Google, Facebook, uh, Microsoft, Bezos, the Impact our lives more than anyone, these companies put together.
What is going to happen to them? How are they going to behave? Are they going to fall in line with this whole, you know, there's, let's bring free speech back into America, which essentially means that you should be able to say whatever the hell you want to say about whoever. What impact will that have on the world and us?
I think that to me will be very, it's scary to imagine, given how Elon Musk has behaved so far. It's kind of,
Abhinandan: he's But
Manisha: I
Jayashree: do agree with Manisha that it's It seems a bit futile to even try and find sense in what Trump does, like, you know, people who defend him will say he's anti interventionist in foreign policy, which is not the [00:40:00] case.
The people will also say that he's an economic populist. He sides with the working class over that of the elite, which was also very much not the case. So it's very hard to sort of predict his sort of takes and reactions on things like policy. So,
Abhinandan: so, uh, Anand joined us, he, uh, while he entered the studio, as is my usual habit, I had to stand.
when Judge Saab enters, but I was sitting since I was talking, but welcome Anand. I hope your law exams went well and we will see you occupying very senior positions at the bar very soon.
Anand: Just as you are close to be the next Rupert Madok. Oh,
Abhinandan: that's that close. Then, then, then you have just. Marauder, paani on all my ashaas.
Of not
Manisha: being able to be Rupert Murdoch. Dude, main kahaan
Abhinandan: Rupert Murdoch. But, you know, Mr. Bharu, I'll just come to Anand on the foreign policy bit because I know that is an area that he enjoys also reading about. You know, let's just come to the economic aspects, uh, you know, devoid of the rhetoric or good, bad or [00:41:00] Uh, now for example, open AI has just, uh, I read in today's paper Uh, it has, uh, said that Delhi High Court lacks jurisdiction to hear copyright suit.
OpenAI has said, because as you know, they had settled to undisclosed amounts on copyright with New York Times, I think they had settled with, right? They had agreed to pay them because the AI is trained on trolling the web on all content. So whatever they have been trained is on the content of, you know, hundreds of thousands of articles by mainstream and even legacy or new media.
Uh, so they are saying while they have struck deals in other countries, especially in America. India, they're saying because High Court made it was being heard. He said that you have no jurisdiction. Um, Trump was asked about, uh, Elon Musk's criticism of that. This half a half a trillion dollars infrastructure and that means that he says they don't have the money.
He said they do. And, uh, Trump, [00:42:00] obviously he says, Elon obviously hates some Altman, which is fine. I hate a lot of people, whatever that means. Uh, but Yeah. You didn't see that. In fact, that, that clip, we will put that on. He was asked that, you know, Elon Musk was Steve Bannon said that Trump, uh, Musk, uh, has to fall in line.
He cannot openly criticize what the president has just announced. He's a part of that administration. And of course, Elon Musk doesn't give a shit because he hates Sam Altman so much. So Trump was asked that your dodge, you know, head and flows associate has. Criticized this entire endeavor and said they don't have the money.
He says, well, I can tell you they do. And, um, he hates Sam Altman. That's why he's saying this, which is fine. I hate a lot of people. That is what Trump's response was.
Jayashree: Mr. President, does it bother you that Elon Musk criticized a deal that you made publicly that he said that he tweeted that? No,
Donald Trump: it doesn't.
He hates one of the people in the deal. Have
Jayashree: you spoken to him since then? No,
Donald Trump: no. Well, I've spoken to Elon, but I've spoken to all of them, actually. [00:43:00] No, no, people in the deal are very, very smart people, but Ilan, one of the people he happens to hate, but I have certain hatreds of people too. But
Abhinandan: when it comes to the business aspect of, you know, he's getting the Saudi prince to commit 600 billion.
He's saying he'll tell him to round it off to 1 trillion
Manisha: to invest in America.
Abhinandan: So, and he says, Oh, you'll have tariffs. So, Mr. Bharu just explained to us, purely on economics, that if I am forced to manufacture out of U. S., uh, the cost of manufacturing there will be significantly higher than, say, a Vietnam or Cambodia, Bangladesh, India, itna hot nahi ra, or China.
So, even if I have to take a hit of tariffs, Because, I mean, imagine setting up a manufacturing plant in Vietnam as opposed to US. The cost difference will be so huge that wouldn't companies rather pay a tariff than actually move manufacturing to the US, especially when you're, you know, finishing migration.
So [00:44:00] you will not have cheap labor, you know, cost of capital there is high, dollar is such an expensive currency, uh, labor is so expensive, everything is so expensive. I mean, will it actually make people move manufacturing to the US, you think?
Sanjaya: I don't think so. I mean, it all depends on the market for a particular company.
The United States is the most important market. They may be forced to move and there may be choices made. But if there is a global market for what you're doing and you're exporting out of Vietnam to a large number of countries, you're willing to take a hit if the American market is not available to you or is available to you at a higher tariff.
Why would you move?
Jayashree: You
Sanjaya: know, I think a lot of, uh, companies will wait and watch, there is a two year window, uh, when the midterm elections happen in, uh, 2027, let's wait and see what happens in the U. S. politics, but nobody is going to run scared. That is my understanding of big [00:45:00] business. They're not going to run scared.
Uh, in fact, there would be a lot of reaction against, uh, the guys who are gathered around Trump. We're going to see a lot of internal, you know, dissension on some of these measures. On the other hand, you'll also see some compliance. So, this game will go on. Both sides testing how much they can push, how much they can wait.
And in this game, some will surrender, particularly some countries, some companies will surrender. You know, for example, Biden prevented, uh, upon steel from buying U. S. steel. The Japanese have put that tail between their legs and they're, you know, they're not go for, uh, any action, but that's Japan. It's a dependent country.
The Saudis, you mentioned about the Saudis, now Saudis, all these guys have so much of their future locked up in the United States. The point I'm trying to make is I think we have, in the last few years, increasingly become dependent on the US, that is true. I think [00:46:00] this will be a lesson for us to be able to reduce their dependence.
I mean, just take the defense. Ten years back, we were not as dependent on the U. S. as we are today for our defensive force. We took more out of Europe and Israel and Russia. Today we are buying more from the U. S. I have a feeling that as we go forward, we will reduce our dependence on the U. S. if Trump continues to be disruptive.
Because Indian armed forces will be risk averse. They'll say, why should I buy an American jet if I can get a Swedish jet or a French jet? Or why should I buy an American, you know, whatever, if I can get it from Russia? And you saw Rajnath Singh has already been in Russia recently. So I think, you know, we have those options.
And other countries also have those options which they will exercise to the extent they can. But I think what Trump is telling the world is, I'm going to fight for myself. You guys want to fight for yourself? Go ahead. That's the language Americans understand. It's the [00:47:00] cowboy, you know, Red Indian world.
Jayashree: In
Sanjaya: which he'll say, look, I'm the top gun.
I'm going to lay down the law, but you'll have all these other cowboys coming and saying, you know, challenging. That's the world Trump lives in. Mentally, that's the world he lives in. And I think what we have to get used to, you mentioned about Jaishankar sitting in the front seat. You know, the reason I think they did that to me, while they actually put the Japanese foreign minister and the Australian foreign minister in the second, third or fourth row, is because on day one, Trump issued an invitation to Xi Jinping.
And not to
Jayashree: Modi.
Sanjaya: And here we were trying to get everybody to forget that fact. That actually Trump invited Xi to his inaugural. He didn't invite Modi. And Jaishankar had to rush to Washington to figure out what the hell has happened. So they're
Abhinandan: doing a balancing act. Keep everyone happy. So
Sanjaya: they said, okay, okay, sorry, sorry.
You know, we forgot. God knows Trump. I don't know. He spoke to Xi. He didn't speak to Modi. You will sit in the front row and your media will play it up and, you [00:48:00] know,
Abhinandan: Here you go, kids. Lollipop. Be happy. Yeah.
Jayashree: Yeah. No, and that's the only reason that they're going on about how Jay Shankar was first past the post.
He was the first. person to meet, uh, Marco Rubio and all, it's only because Modi wasn't invited. And that is why we have to make such a big deal of it. Also that the Ambani's were there. I think,
Abhinandan: I don't know. Yeah, but they were on a paid ticket. They were on that paid ticket. That we don't know.
Jayashree: The allegation is that it was a paid ticket, but.
Like five newspapers this morning were full of like, what was Neeta Bhandari wearing. But I
Abhinandan: find it highly unlikely. She was dressed. He won't be invited. He won't invite Mukesh Ambani. It was a 1 million ticketed event. And
Manisha: yeah,
Abhinandan: some
Manisha: of them are invited to this though. Okay.
Abhinandan: I find it highly unlikely Mukesh should be invited.
I mean, I don't know
Manisha: if he was or not. But
Abhinandan: you know, two questions on the analysis on the economic impact of this. And you know, Mr. Baru and then Anand, I'm sure you're also well qualified to comment on that. One is that. His drill, baby drill. While it may be very damaging for the environment, a drill,
Manisha: baby
Abhinandan: drill, it may actually address inflation across the world because inflation is not just an [00:49:00] American problem.
Uh, you know, it led to the collapse of the Conservative party in the u uk. Uh, the cost of living crisis was the number one issue there. Um. In many parts of Europe, America, of course, India, we are struggling with inflation. So that actually may address inflation because with him drilling more oil and America, I think has the largest drilling capacity or the manufacturing capacity in the world.
So they can actually alter oil prices and it's not just left to the OPEC countries. Will it actually happen? You think that may address inflation around the world? And secondly, so in that sense, it'll help everybody in the world. Uh, I, in the short term, of course, in the long term, it may kill us and all the glaciers may melt, but in the short run.
And secondly, I also, uh, you know, read this analysis, which said that him reducing energy prices could potentially very cleverly bankrupt Russia because Russia is earning a lot of its foreign exchange because it is using those ghost fleets to send gas to other countries, breaking embargoes using [00:50:00] because they have a market.
But as soon as he reduces energy prices by drilling baby drill, then Russia's entire market collapses. You think Those two outcomes are possible and good for the world.
Sanjaya: Well, they're certainly possible. Um, The reduction in oil prices will be good for the world. Um, and of course it will hurt russia That's the simple answer.
I think the caveat I would enter is Having brought these prices down and having put more american oil on the market Trump will tell us stop buying from Russia and Iran. In the past, the U. S. has put enormous pressure on us. I remember when we were doing the nuclear deal with George Bush, even then we were asked not to buy from Iran.
And till the deal was done, we actually stopped buying from Iran because we wanted the nuclear deal done. So I can, that kind of pressure will come. So, it's not simply that the price will go down, but we will be forced to buy [00:51:00] more from the U. S. And less from Russia and Iran. In fact, nothing from Russia and Iran.
That's an important geopolitical decision we'll have to take. Will the Indian government be willing to give up these options and buy only from the US and from the Arabs? Or will we keep our options in Iran and Russia open? It's an important political question. What do you
Abhinandan: think would be a smart thing to
Sanjaya: do?
Well, I mean, as I keep saying again and again, the smart thing to do, if we are a rising power in a multipolar world, and we want to tell the world, we are big, we are rising, and, you know, impress the Chinese and the rest of the global South, we are leader of the global South, behave like that. Let no one bully me into where I'll buy my oil from.
So I think this is a good opportunity for India to recollect its past and stand up. We did in the past, as I keep saying, I mean, we fought to kick the British out. Uh, we stood up during the period of the Cold War to American bullying. [00:52:00] Uh, that's the whole purpose of what I wrote. That don't, don't succumb, don't yield, don't bend, stand up.
There will be costs, there will be consequences. But at least behave like a big power if you want to be seen as a big power. There's no point saying I'm the third world's biggest economy in the world, and rising power, and Mera Bharat Mahan, Vishwa Guru, all of that. And then go and supplicate.
Abhinandan: Right. When it comes to, you know, foreign policy, uh, you think there is going to be any major change in how India engages with the U.
S. under Trump? Or you think it's just noise for the media there, but nothing really from our end?
Anand: Uh, say, theoretically, I think, uh, uh, Mr. Trump's arrival has all the makings of, uh, um, Collegiate debates. Means, uh, uh, many people in. Public space and editorial leadership are fond of their school college days debates which they impose on current events.
So, uh, [00:53:00] his arrival and with the ideological moorings he has come has all the making of this collegiate debate. But the thing is that the world Politics, international politics does not work like collegiate debates. So, the gravitational force of resistance and multiple factors international politics resist, uh, say drastic changes.
So, uh, to say that in, uh, next four years, everything would be very disruptive. I think that's an overstatement as Mr. Baru has pointed out in his column also. And also, Ideologically see, uh, we, uh, like, uh, the pushback to the globalist politics in the, from roaring nineties, that Fukuyama, uh, theorized as the end of the history and the last man, and by 2008 with.
Um, saw that, uh, no, we are [00:54:00] territorial, uh, territorially demarcated citizens living in nation states. We live in nations and it is an international system built with nations. And that has come somehow to fore in America today that, um, um. National interest. Otherwise, also there was there, as you must have discussed, but it was draped in some kind of other globalist gloss.
But it has now come to fore that yes, nationalist interest would be at the core of his foreign policy. So, Um, I think, um, as Mr Baru pointed out that, um, the ability of major powers to impose costs on rising powers has declined, whether it's America or [00:55:00] China or Russia. The power
Abhinandan: dynamic is not as one dimensional.
Yes, has
Anand: declined. So, uh, what, how is a great power defined in international system? If it has great capability of imposing costs on others, but, but It can still have some ability to impose those costs, but it's now less so India can stand ground. It's ground on a number of issues and also allow itself some elbow space and to resist arm twisting by other powers, including us.
Okay.
Abhinandan: Thank you. Uh, I know you have to go, Mr. Baru. Uh, my producer informed me. So I think we have you another for three or four minutes. Want to just quickly ask you about, uh, your stint with the prime minister, Manmohan Singh, you know, we had a long show after his passing about his legacy. And I mean, it was a mixed of course, the, as a tradition, when [00:56:00] someone passes, especially Someone as apparently benign and soft spoken as Mr.
Manmohan Singh, but there were a few pieces like one in, I think the telegraph, uh, which spoke about, um, not all was great in his time, which spoke about, you know, the, uh, cases that were filed against the red terror and against the protesters in the South. Yes. Uh, so, but you had a, you know, a four year stint with him at a very important stage, especially the nuclear deal.
Um, In your assessment, a lot has emerged of how he was underrated in certain ways, like he was an underrated politician, uh, because he was a good, you know, politician. You think his, what is, according to you, his legacy as Prime Minister? The, the, the nature of You know, demeanor being soft [00:57:00] spoken, relatively peaceful, uh, his over emphasis on, uh, you know, economic growth, even at the cost of, in my view, a very destructive policy like the SCZs, which was basically land grabbing by rich industrialists, who continue to be as pampered under Mr.
Modi. I think those industrialists will be pampered no matter who's in power. Uh, uh, his economic miracle, so to speak, of 1991. All this nuclear deal, uh, I, I don't know how important it was, but what, what for you should he be remembered most for?
Sanjaya: Well, I've stayed away from saying anything after he passed away, because whatever I have to say, I've said in my book, which I have always held will be the best tribute, uh, to the man. Uh, I still believe that, uh, it's the strongest, uh, defense of his first term in office. The only comment I would, I have made repeatedly and, uh, even [00:58:00] recently is that my, I think the only reason why there was a change in the public memory, uh, as compared to the first term, don't forget the first term ended with the entire media saying Singh is king.
And this was not Goi Media, and this was, you know, the NDTV, the CNN IBN times. Now everybody, if you go back and look at those visuals of, uh, July, 2008 or early 2009, it was sing was king and sing was king because it was seen as having achieved some. So at that time, my advice to him was, sir, you should now contest for the, you came through the.
You are seen as a nominated prime minister, which is why I, I accidental prime minister. But now you have won the confidence of the Indian people. Every opinion poll, go back and look at India today of that time, [00:59:00] outlook of that time. You know, all the opinion polls. Showed that, you know, he, his public standing was very, very high, which is why in the election of 2009, the Congress got 60 more seats, 60 more seats, came back with 206 seats in parliament.
And so I said, you go to Amritsar and contest from there and come to the Lok Sabha and assert your prime ministership. He didn't take my advice, which is why I kept quiet after that. Uh, and I think a lot of the damage of the second interim, uh, particularly the way in which the media dealt with him, uh, which finally ended up with his saying that, you know, history will be kind to me.
Unfortunately, media was not kind to him at that time. It was because of this shift. Which where, you know, in politics, people do respect a person who asserts his
Abhinandan: power.
Sanjaya: From the level of the village [01:00:00] serpents
Abhinandan: to
Sanjaya: that of the prime minister of the country. People respect you, you have acquired power that you assert power.
If you have acquired power and not asserted that power, the respect diminishes. Then you will be remembered as a good man, which is how he will be remembered. And I'm glad to see such a wholesome tribute to his individual personality. Uh, but, uh, the legacy of the prime ministership, you know, what I've written in the book is my view.
My last word. I don't want to say anything more.
Abhinandan: Right. Uh, sorry. Just one last question. One is, of course, it wasn't Godi like it is now, but it was still Godi in my view. You were a media advisor, maybe. You were a lot more polite in dealing with the media. I happen to know how the media is spoken to now, maybe not in Mr.
Baru's, uh, more polite, sophisticated way, uh, they are given, uh, orders in the most crass way and they follow, uh, cause many of them have no self respect, uh, so the people doing your job, I guess, are, are, [01:01:00] are slightly, Like you said, less elite like you, not English speaking, not upper caste, but, but, uh, the book you wrote, there was a film made on it.
Um, were you, were you satisfied with how it emerged?
Sanjaya: No, I was not. And I don't think Indian, uh, Indian cinema, particularly Hindi film industry has learned how to make political films. It was not a political film in the way in which, you know, Hollywood has learned how to make good political films. Europe does good political films.
Jayashree: Hmm.
Sanjaya: Um, it was done a mishmash. So I, I, I had nothing to do with the film apart from selling the film rights, which I did.
Jayashree: Hmm.
Sanjaya: I, I know, I mean, I have said this again and again and again, my book is in English. And therefore I wrote for an audience that reads the book in English. First of all, I wrote for an audience that reads, which is a very small audience.
A film is made for people who watch movies, which is a huge audience [01:02:00] and a very different audience. So they, their audience is fundamentally different from my audience. And therefore the book and the film are in two different realms, two different worlds.
Abhinandan: I'm not saying the film is your responsibility, but are you embarrassed it's associated with your book?
Sanjaya: No, it's not. You see, I mean, I didn't expect anything different. As I said, that is Indian cinema's view of dealing with politics. Show me one serious political film that has been done, at least in the Hindi language. I don't know about other Indian languages, maybe there
Jayashree: are.
Sanjaya: But a serious good political film.
In fact, in the last one year, we've had a series of embarrassments from this file and that file. Right. You know, and now emergency. And they're all embarrassingly, you know, dumb, uh, political films.
Abhinandan: Right. Thank you so much for your time. And before we say goodbye, uh, any recommendation of film, a series, an article, a [01:03:00] book, anything that you think would enrich the lives of our listeners do suggest.
Sanjaya: Well, I mean, uh, I, I see now mostly old films on Netflix. Uh, of my generations, I've seen very few new films, but, uh, books I read a lot. And I certainly recommend what is already now a very, very popular book, uh, William Dalrymple's, um, book on, on the Golden Road. And I'm just reading a book I picked up at the United Services Institution with which I'm affiliated, which is an Indian Armed Forces think tank.
Uh, which is a book putting together articles published by people, men in the armed forces from the middle of the 19th century, you know, chaps who are army generals, et cetera, in India, working in India, uh, it's fascinating. I mean, here is a general writing in 1870 about the importance of Kashmir for the defense of India.
And another chap was writing an essay. Or, you know, northeast frontier province. [01:04:00] When I read these, I realize how little has changed. You know, because ultimately geography does not, does not change. Everything else in the world may change. But the geography does not change. And the armed forces, uh, think and behave on the basis of their understanding of geography.
That's what they're defending. Uh, so, and I'm a student of geography. When I was in school and college, it was my favorite subject. So to see the importance of geography for India, uh, is all, always fascinates me, whether it's the hills, the The valleys, the oceans, the seas. So there's a book I would recommend.
It's recently been published, uh, by the United Services Institution, um, on military history. It's titled India's Military History. Uh, that's a book I'm right now reading. It's fascinating.
Abhinandan: Mr. Bharu for joining us. Appreciate your time. Have a great week ahead. So, uh, you know, on this death penalty, you know, what you pointed out, Jayshree, we've [01:05:00] discussed it in different ways and in different contexts in the past here.
But I think this one aspect that It is not, I mean, of course, rarest of rare is so subjective that,
Manisha: and it also always depends on the media coverage of that rarest of the rare. The media usually makes
Abhinandan: it rarest of rare or not rarest of rare. But if there is even an iota of doubt cast at any stage in any of the courts, you can't undo a death sentence.
And I think that is one aspect that is not discussed enough. Uh, you know, against that sentence, usually it's a moral position or it is, you know, a position of revenge as opposed to justice, et cetera. But purely that it leaves little one chink open of correcting the wrong. And that, that sentence completely closes, which is what you're saying is significant in this case.
Right?
Jayashree: Yes. And I think, but that is the main argument that people do use. I mean, see moral [01:06:00] arguments. Hold very little water with people who have very strong views on whether someone should live or dialect. So I don't think a moral argument is useful in many cases, even though you should morally be opposed to the death penalty, in my opinion.
But the point is that things like the death penalty project have chronicle instances where there is the rare case where there is a modicum of doubt. And as you said, if modicum of doubt exists, you cannot give the death penalty. It is abhorrent. And there are cases in the UN US and all as well where.
You're given the death penalty and then 30 or 40 years later, it is overturned because
Abhinandan: yeah, you know, new evidence
Jayashree: comes along, especially when you're talking about cases that took place in the eighties and nineties, where there's no forensic evidence in the sort of way that exists today. You cannot take those chances.
And I'm sorry, but in India, I feel like I have faith in the justice system and police investigative processes. I mean, especially when you know the degree of corruption and laxity that sort of exists and the control that many other institutions have over police [01:07:00] and what they do. So I would not blindly trust, especially when the police is under pressure to sort of.
Prove a case or whatever. I would not trust them to have done a fair sort of job of it.
Manisha: So from whatever I've read of the case, it seems like a fairly open and shut case that this guy is the accused is, you know, the guy, because they've also relied on DNA samples, blood stains, hair. So his samples on her, the victim's hair on him.
And of course, that initial first evidence that they had of his phone. So I don't think there's a doubt that this guy, uh, Is the perpetrator. Committed the crime because I think if you have, once you have DNA samples, then you can be fairly sure, especially in a case of rape. In this case, I guess, the rarest of the rare.
How rare? Is rape and a murder in a country like India. We know right after this incident. In fact, we had so many reports come out of the sexual violence that, uh, doctors face in hospitals. A lot of them came out. There were, I think there were some rape cases also reported because there's that new cycle of one thing happens and you start reporting everything that's [01:08:00] happening across.
So we know. At least sexual violence is not something, uh, new that healthcare workers face in hospitals. And at that time, much of the protest was about that also. The fact that we don't feel safe in hospitals and we've been demanding X, Y, Z things and, you know, nothing has changed for us. So I think the argument here should be more rarest of the rare.
Is it, you know?
Abhinandan: Right. Uh, when it comes to law, uh, Anand, I mean, to the best of my knowledge, you cannot be part of the EU if you have death penalty on your statute and your criminal. I mean, that's one of the. binding factors of the EU community that none of the EU countries have a death sentence. So when Europe, my question is when, uh, was it Germany, which is the first country to do with the death sentence and be when that was done.
Um, I mean, is there any course that they teach you in law that this is what were the arguments put that this is why they're doing it with the death sentence. And what were those arguments? Were they moral? Were they practical? Uh, or was it something else?
Anand: Arguments are not very different [01:09:00] from what Uh, say a critique of death sentences.
So it's not, and that arguments are not very technical. They are common sense arguments, more moralistic in nature. Uh, in Europe, except, um, Belarus recent, recently, I don't know the current position, most of the countries have done away with it. October 10th. Is observed as, uh, anti death sentence day. So, anyway, so, in India, this rarest of rare case theory came up, um, around 1988 in, I think it was in Kartar Singh case, the court came up with this theory, uh, that you have to restrict it to the rarest of rare cases.[01:10:00]
The prevalence of death sentence and some quotes upholding it has more to do with the exemplar effect. So you want to make example of something and that is how it is being carried out in India. You may have same cases with same gravity, same heinous crime, but it would not be awarded maybe because it has not gathered.
Such public outrage and, uh, when it gathers such public outrage, sometimes judges are swayed away by making this an exemplary effect case. So we need to make some examples out of it. Uh, out of, uh, I don't know whether. The critiques of death sentence would be having same opinions if they were from the [01:11:00] suffering family.
Uh, if I would be in a subjective position, but objectively, I don't agree with death sentence. One of the reasons you pointed out because it is, uh, something that is not taking into account. account the inf, uh, the fallibility of human judgment. So human judgment is not infallible. There can be, it can be wrong and cannot be corrected.
Second is, uh, The moralist argument is that there is a life in full flow. It is breathing. It is having senses and you are cutting it down. Means even if he is a very heinous criminal, he had some dignity in a Kantian terms. So you are, uh, I think George Orwell quite Um, brilliantly brought out it in a essay hanging.
He was an Imperial Police, uh, officer in Myanmar, and he witnessed a hanging and he [01:12:00] wrote a piece for an English magazine. So he, he said that the man who was going to be hanged, he witnessed a pool of water and he was just going to be hanged three, four minutes later. And he avoided that, uh, uh, pool, uh, the puddle, the puddle, sorry, not pool, the puddle of water from the overnight rains.
So even in those last moments, he had the judgment. to not swell his clothes. So he was a life in full flow. Maybe his nails were growing. Maybe he was smelling the air of the early morning when he was hanged. So he. Uh, moment by moment recounts his hanging and shows how, why it's wrong. Uh, so that is one of my recommendations also, a [01:13:00] hanging it's by George Orwell in his, I think he wrote it in 1930s.
Abhinandan: Having said that, I mean, since we are in a full flow of extracting silver linings from dark clouds in this episode, the amount of. Death penalties that are awarded in judgments and the amount that actually get carried out in India. There's quite a difference, right, Anand? So, I mean That
Anand: is, the process is the punishment itself.
Abhinandan: Okay, so Keep waiting
Manisha: for your hanging. Yeah, because a lot of
Abhinandan: hangings are awarded, but like for example, not a single woman has been hanged, you know, in India and Many, I think maybe 10,
Manisha: a woman. There was a woman who was hanged in India.
Abhinandan: She was the first one? We'll just check. A serial
Manisha: killer, if I'm not mistaken.
And I think the victims were kids.
Anand: Maharashtra. No, no, you're
Manisha: right. She killed
Jayashree: her some three children. But was she hanged finally?
Abhinandan: We'll just check, but I remember there was India Today, I think 10 or 15 years had done a story, a [01:14:00] cover story on women on death row. And saw women on death row for 5, 10, 15 years.
But they weren't actually hanged. I mean it was just there. I mean, I dunno what the legal reasons are, but it doesn't get carried out.
Manisha: And what is the fundamental bottleneck when it comes to, is like how other trials are sitting in jail? I am not. You don't have hangman or what? You don't have the infrastructure.
One of the things was there is
Abhinandan: a of Hangman. Hangman Doth has been a story that has been done by various publications in the last several years. I've. seen this story repeated every few years by someone or the other.
Jayashree: Donald Trump also has, one of his executive orders is that he wants to aggressively promote the death penalty in severe cases.
And he of course went on one big rant. Oh, you know, 150, 000 children are being raped and murdered. There are no There's no data as to what he's talking about, but he's like, because of this, we must sort of aggressively kill more people. But in the U. S. why there is a slowdown in the U. S. and [01:15:00] why this will be difficult is because they're finding it difficult to get a supply of that drug that they use to do the lethal injection.
They use
Abhinandan: lethal injections.
Jayashree: Right. So, uh,
Manisha: on
Abhinandan: that note, uh, I want to once again, appeal to everybody to pay to keep news free. Uh, and maybe Manisha, before we get into the emails and we have many. Anand, you have been missing because of your exam for a few weeks. So there were so many emails that were telling us how valuable you are.
Yeah. And standing up for you because of in defense of you. So we kept putting them off that finally we had to read them because I think we read a few though. We read a few. So just you should acknowledge all those people who said lay off Anand. You
Manisha: can give a speech. Anand
Abhinandan: is our brother. Don't say anything to Anand.
Like that they said. So, Vanisha, quick appeal and then we will get to the email. Yes,
Manisha: the Delhi elections are in full swing. We have All our reporters on the ground, we've done stories on civic issues, which seems to be the one looming issue this election. We're hearing a lot of people [01:16:00] talk about roads and pani and gaddhas.
Uh, we have interviews like Srinivas and Jain, uh, has put an interview. Atul has an interview out. Our show, another election show is also out. So do check all this out on our YouTube playlist. There's a playlist called Delhi elections. You can check it all out. But more importantly, power our coverage because all of this is completely ad free.
No ARP ads, no BJP ads, no Congress ads, Shuddh Desi Ghee. No Kumbh ads. No Kumbh ads. But then we need you guys to step in to make up for the lack of ads. At least somebody criticized me for saying you should not say lack of ad or something. No, it's a negative term. So to make up for our rejection of ads, please.
Subscribe to News Laundry, log on to newslaundry. com slash NLSena, choose an amount that's convenient for you and support us or scan the QR code that's on your screen right now.
Abhinandan: Right. Thank you, Manisha. So we only entertain the emails of subscribers, like one lovely subscriber, one of you suggested. [01:17:00] That rather than negotiate on the length of the letter, just read the 150 words and don't read after that.
So that is the format we're going to be following. Although we read the whole thing. So now you'll be
Manisha: subjected to the editor's cut.
Abhinandan: Editor's cut, but the only thing is we have read the whole thing. We just haven't. Read it all out loud. But a lot more people are adhering to the word limit. You can mail us at podcasts at newsroaring.
com. I repeat podcasts at newsroaring. com. Uh, please write in the subject line hafta, NL hafta, and please keep it under 150 words. And I'm sure our producers have fixed that. window that comes up if you want to click on the show notes link, which opens out the box and the window where you can give in your feedback directly.
So let's get to the emails. Uh, ladies, please start.
Manisha: So Rohit says that, uh, he'd like a deep dive on Mr. Jaswant Singh Khalra. I've read his wiki and I'm shocked and blown. Please do a detailed deep dive on the period and especially that man. Okay.
Abhinandan: Right. Uh, this is [01:18:00] the film is also made on him, right? Which now I think is being released.
Jayashree: Yeah, they did a bunch of censor cuts on it.
Abhinandan: Right. Although I believe they're going to release, internationally they'll release it uncut. I'm not sure what the deal is.
Manisha: Shimona says one, uh, two quick suggestions. One, please include recommendations for the week in the description of the podcast itself, which is there in the description.
Yeah.
Abhinandan: Shimona, on the podcast play, there is a word limit, so we can't put all the links, but if you come to the website. It'll have all the links because there are so many links that he put. We crossed the word limit on the podcast player, but on the website, you'll see all the links.
Manisha: Uh, says also that right now, previous Hafta records are uploaded on the Google doc and one has to rewind back and forth.
Love your voices, but there's. Such a thing as too muchness. Can't keep hearing you all the time. Two, please read the letters a little slowly. Remember, you have it in front of you, but your audience doesn't. Especially you, Abhinandan ji. Thanks, Jayshree, for the lovely book reco last week. I immediately downloaded the [01:19:00] first Ruth Galloway book, finished it, and I'm about to complete the next one.
It has been hard, so hard, getting any work done this week. Thank you. Love the work you all do. I'm so glad.
Jayashree: Good, good. Finally, someone is seeing my book records.
Abhinandan: But the last line. No, I
Manisha: think a lot of people love your book records. Damn proud of you
Abhinandan: guys. That's very important. Srimona, thank you. I'm glad you, we make you proud because that's very important.
Manisha: Abhijit says, Jai Shree. What is Jayshree's What is Battameez hilariously reminded me of my initial days as a South Indian in Dehradun, asking my colleagues for help. I'm better now, but occasionally sound like my CBSE Hindi textbook. Manisha, great breakup song is Adele's Someone Like You and Rolling in the Deep with one following the other as we try.
I have to say I don't like Adele. Sorry, I'll get a lot of hate mail for this, but anyway, I don't like her voice. Abhirandan, I think Nidhi Razdan might also be part of the problem when she was with NDTV. I vaguely remember watching Dr. Roy and Appan Menon growing up. Since then, Dr. Roy and NDTV have embodied [01:20:00] elitism and were insufferable sometimes with their we know better position.
I didn't feel too terribly when NDTV had their management change. I do now though. And yes, I miss them now, but Nidhi doesn't have to look too far to see the problematic old generation. Maybe I'm wrong, please let me know.
Abhinandan: Well, Abhijeet, I don't think you're wrong or right. I think there was a definite problem with media, like I told Mr.
Baru also. It wasn't like there was no Godi media then. It was just the nature and the personality was a little different. And the aesthetic was a little different. But it wasn't insane, yeah.
Manisha: Jamuna says, Dear NL team, Happy New Year. Thanks for all the great work you do. I understand that NL subscribers have to do more than simply subscribe to enable quality journalism.
But given that multiple NL centers are running at any given moment, could you please offer more options for making contributions? Right now the slabs are 500, 2500. That's quite a jump. If, if possible, please add a slab in between. TNM subscribers. TNM gives subscribers the options of picking the amount they wish to contribute.[01:21:00]
I think subscribers would appreciate it. Thank you.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Jamina, at least in the nuisance and the um, typically we have introduced a 99 Rupe also 'cause a lot of students who have
Manisha: subscription
is such a, such a chips,
Abhinandan: but it is Pepsi.
Manisha: Behavior. But it actually
Abhinandan: works. Yeah, it does. There's a podcast around it. Yeah, it does. But Jamuna, we, I've taken a note of this, uh, Moss Labs and NL Sena. We'll, we'll try to include those.
Manisha: This letter is from Anonymous. I want to bring your attention to the concerning selection of Aam Aadmi Party candidates in my region.
Several AAP candidates have troubling backgrounds with some being known goons and a few facing serious charges, including murder. Initially, I overlooked these issues due to my strong opposition to BGP politics, but the reality of ARP's candidates choices is now directly impacting us. If you have the resources, I urge you to investigate and cover this issue to inform the public.
So yeah, I think, I mean, this doesn't even need an investigation. The candidates are out there for us [01:22:00] to look into. So we should do this. Yeah, we'll do that.
Abhinandan: In fact, the Punjab election. I
Manisha: mean, currently, we need to probably look at the candidates they put up because now It's MLAs.
Abhinandan: Punjabi election is next to next year.
Yeah. 26.
Manisha: Yeah. In two years. Along with UP. Right?
Abhinandan: Right. Okay.
Manisha: Next letter is by Shaum Shubhruch Chaudhary. I have a question regarding the NL Sena other NL Senas, it makes sense as you're an organization based primarily out of Delhi and thus need to get your journalists to the locations. However, for Delhi, why do you need a pot, which is 93 percent of the NL Also, the no more button on Sena homepage is not hyperlinked.
Was looking for specifics on this.
Jayashree: No, this specifically this button thing where I think we flagged him by trying to fix it. Just
Manisha: to. Shardul, Arcane is incredible. It shows you at 24 WPS per seconds.
Abhinandan: Wallpaper. This is, I guess, some gamer speech. Have you [01:23:00] been
Manisha: blue eyed? Samurai. We'll, I'll send this bit to Shardul.
Abhinandan, love your curses, never stop.
Abhinandan: So thanks, but Som Sudhro, just so that we tell you how the economics work, why it's 93 percent of those is, there we send one or two reporters, uh, purely because they are far away and we are a Delhi based organization. So anything Delhi, you know, you've got to, you've got to like own a space.
Uh, In the Delhi election, we have deployed a total of about 12 people, if you include reporters and producers and editors. So just the number of, uh, you know, stories you'll see are a lot more. Uh, and, uh, in fact, Srinivasan Jain is also doing some interviews with us for this. So it's just the sheer volume of stuff that you see coming out and the amount of resources are deployed.
When we cover a state election, which is not Delhi, we usually put two reporters max. I think we've never put more than two on another stage, right? [01:24:00]
Manisha: Peri Sai Teja says, greetings to NL team. I wish there was a letter section in the previous hafta. If for some reason it could not be included in the podcast, I request a separate page be set up for letters written by separate, no, but we're, we're reading it now.
So that's fine. I'm very, I very much enjoyed the discussion economy related Vivek Kaul. I ardently wish more efforts are also dedicated to economy related topics since most problems, their solutions and human motivations are related. to monetary incentives. I was also quite delighted with the discussion on journaling in Hafta, since I myself regularly write journal entries and send letters, one addressed to Abhinandan Enil though no reply yet, as a sort of a digital detox.
My recommendations to the team, Newsroom by HBO, and a book that I enjoyed very much, Chip Voss by Chris Miller.
Abhinandan: Okay, so Perry, uh, just send it to me again gmail.
Manisha: No, the point is that she's written a handwritten letter, proper letter, as a digital detox. So, which was posted, posted. Oh, okay. I, so it would have come in your [01:25:00] mailbox.
Abhinandan: Okay. Uh, I haven't got it yet, Perry, but just take a photograph, scan it and mail it to me.
Manisha: It's already sent it to you,
Abhinandan: but I haven't reached it. No,
Manisha: but how can she scan it now? It's
Abhinandan: correct. Sorry. My God. It's like
Manisha: this generation is incapable of thinking of a world where
Abhinandan: I'm really addicted
Manisha: to the internet.
Shocking.
Jayashree: Hmm.
Manisha: I used to love writing, writing letters.
Jayashree: Mm. Yeah. Now I can occasionally write a postcard, but like a letter. Is this too long?
Abhinandan: Fun? I still do. In fact, when I give. Uh, and
Manisha: you're really encouraged because of the handwriting and the language you learned. And as kids, I think description also, you were learning Exactly.
How do you describe things around you, your days? In fact,
Abhinandan: when I had gone to speak at, uh, I think, uh, IALM, uh, in . Uh, they gave me a very thoughtful gift, which was basically personalized, embossed, you know, pad, envelope, [01:26:00] letterhead, Abhinandan Sekhri. That was a very nice one. So now even when I would not normally write na, I zabarasti take that out and write to my friends.
I say, why are you writing? I said because I have to use this lovely stationery,
Manisha: it can't just
Abhinandan: sit
Manisha: here.
Jayashree: I wonder if schools still have letter writing as a Yeah, yeah, they do. They do, they do. My nephew still has like But instead of saying write a letter, we write an email to your grandmother saying something, whatever.
Manisha: Mala says, Hi Hafta team, absolutely love your show. It's become a weekly ritual to wait. I wanted to discuss the state of NL merch. While I understand that subscriptions are important, I wanted to encourage the team to focus on better merch. Modern, more interesting design merch could go along with an improving revenue of the designs that are a little more appealing to all.
As designer, I would be happy to offer my services. That's amazing. Uh, and would love to develop a new line of merch for subs. Wow. That's amazing. We should absolutely quickly get in touch.
Anand: So, uh, [01:27:00] in my last visit to my state, I asked. Uh, one of my cousins, why he shifted from Denik Bhaskar to Denik Jagran.
So he said that, uh, Denik Bhaskar was giving me a steel glass, a glass deraha tha, and Jagran balti diya hai. Okay. No, for
Manisha: me, like the New Yorker, tot is an aspirational subscription. Denik Jagran has given
Anand: a bucket for those who don't
Abhinandan: understand Hindi. So Mala, uh, uh, we will get your email ID and I'm going to take you up on this offer for merch.
Manisha: Yeah. Modern, well designed, cool stuff. Nice sweatshirts.
Abhinandan: Right.
Manisha: N747 says regarding the organized nature of journalism, journalists aren't the only ones suffering from this. Most of India manufacturing and IT workers also feel the same. The happiness of a good day's work. It makes us forget that good organizations are the force multipliers of the work we do.
Even our management schools have forgotten how to [01:28:00] teach organization and build safeguards for them. I agree when it comes to journalism, it has a major impact of safeguarding democracy. I remember Abhinandan making the same point about great criminals. To during
Abhinandan: some corruption discussion.
Manisha: Great criminals.
They are not, when we talk about great criminals. They are not necessarily sharp but well organized. Oh, like, like,
Abhinandan: you mean
Manisha: talented criminals?
Abhinandan: What makes, I guess, a good criminal is
Manisha: Is organized? With tips
Abhinandan: and tricks
Jayashree: for criminals. I love
Abhinandan: it. How
Manisha: does a criminal be organized?
Abhinandan: Are you kidding?
Manisha: Like, what are you planning?
What organization? A crime is all
Abhinandan: about planning. Execution is
Manisha: Yeah, I guess.
Abhinandan: But you don't
Manisha: have to be organized for that. You need to be sharp for the No, you have to be organized. You don't have to be organized. Come on. 60 percent of this
Anand: OTT content is the organized crime. Yeah. Okay. So if organized crime didn't happen, I think Netflix would lose 60 percent of its content.
Correct.
Manisha: Anonymous says, [01:29:00] I'm writing to express my deep disappointment with South Central, a podcast that was heavily promoted by NL Hafta. Given the high standards and credibility of NL Hafta, I find SC underwhelming. Firstly, it's puzzling that voices like Sudipto, who could bring insightful perspectives, aren't featured in it.
Feeling like a missed opportunity. Secondly, choices of stories are questionable for a podcast that claims to. put south at the center, dedicating significant airtime to Nirmala Priya, a woman who was gruesomely murdered and chopped her partner.
Abhinandan: Who gruesomely murdered and chopped her partner? Oh,
Manisha: okay. She
Jayashree: gruesomely murdered and chopped her partner.
It wasn't her partner. It was a random sponsor and, okay, not to Nimesha Priya case is a very, very nuanced case. It's not just a murderous woman who is,
Manisha: Put to death. Attempting to rationalize such acts of murder is detrimental to journalistic integrity. Okay. Thirdly, while feminism is essential, the tone of the podcast sometimes feels excessive, overshadowing the nuanced, balanced storytelling that is necessary.
On a separate note, [01:30:00] downloads feature on News Laundry app for Android is not working, preventing offline listening. Request you to fix it.
Abhinandan: Yeah, I've made a note. I think we had this thing before we had fixed it. Just see if you've updated our app. If not, but I will definitely point this out to our tech team.
Manisha: Anonymous says, Digital arrests, misuse of enforcement authorities for political purposes has created an environment of fear, distrust among all of us. When high profile figures can be darkened with disdain, the threat of arrest feels very real. Many of the less powerful are still in jail for the last several years.
Scammers are exploiting this emotion to manipulate their victims. I'm sure that those in power realize this, but will not accept the blame. It's for the people to take up the issue of misuse. Call for an NLCNR. I think on scams, we should plan some NLCNR. High public interest scams, just this. Yeah. The digital scams or I mean, and as a high public interest, I think.
Abhinandan: Okay.
Manisha: Amrita says kudos on starting the year long fight to breed [01:31:00] campaign. The website mentions that you would be doing shows articles to force executive powers to fix this forcing action is clearly the toughest part. Yeah, it is. And she's curious how you would do it. So, uh, well, so we have a manifesto coming up, by the way, I mean, we don't know if I mean, yeah, at the end of it, forcing action is not something that's entirely in our control, but we have a pollution, a manifesto for air pollution that we're going to be releasing soon for Delhi elections.
Abhinandan: So, uh, Amrita, uh, regarding Internet Inkalab, you know, we didn't run any campaign saying that NL impact, NL impact, you need not have the biggest impact, but even if you're the first domino to fall, you know, other dominoes can fall. So. Now, I can just tell you what happened in case of internet in collab. Um, Shreya who was the litigant who had.
Shreya single. Yeah. Um, you know, we did an interview there. She was, I think, just 22 or 23 at the time. Now she's practices in Delhi, uh, [01:32:00] and is a lawyer of. Some accomplishment and that it was just really young. Uh, we did interviews, um, with many people, stakeholders, lawyers, policy makers, rather unfairly, I guess some people pointed out to me because Kapil Sibal didn't come because Kapil Sibal was the author of this Section 66A, his son was taken to task by Madhu and many people said, why have you got the son and scolding him for what the father has done?
But, uh, so, I mean, I'm not saying because we did this campaign, but we knew that many media houses were unhappy with it. But because no matter what you may think of Godi now, very few had the guts to say what the hell. So when this campaign happened, a lot of other people started talking about it as well.
Eventually, the Supreme Court struck it down based on the court, uh, on, you know, the legal process. It wasn't that News Laundry's campaign made it happen. The Supreme Court made it happen. But I think if there's enough noise about something, it doesn't matter [01:33:00] how it was corrected. I think something or the other will correct it, but you have to just be a part of that noise.
Manisha: Nirmal Jeet says, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for t shirt and the biggest hug for autographs. Framing the t shirt and hanging it on the wall to give respect to all of you. Wear it, I'd say, don't frame.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Manisha: Thank you so much for keeping news sanity and hygiene in times of Godi Media. Can you please read my email?
And Hafta, we've done it. I love Hafta Tipni the most. The Sanjay Dhritarashtra Shambhad is the best. Thank you so much.
Abhinandan: Thank you. And sorry, Nimrajeet, my signature on your t shirt. Got smudged very badly.
Manisha: Oh no, we signed on the T-shirts. Oh,
Abhinandan: we did sign on the t-shirt then.
Manisha: Then T-shirt then I guess don't wear it.
It was a T-shirt that
Abhinandan: I, I, I mean the subscriber engagement department had said one subscriber wants all of us to sign it and send it to her. She had ordered a T-shirt, so, oh, cute. When I signed, it was, my sign was this as my handwriting is shit. The pen [01:34:00] also was shit. So it was just this smudge.
Anand: But she's so happy.
So you have to, so you had to sign again. That, that is what banks ask.
No, luckily not.
Manisha: Dear Hafta team. Yeah. Okay. Anonymous says we have come a long way back. Words from making movies like, oh my God, with Paris and Kumar, which highlighted the absurd amount of money these temples and Babas have, to the point where an anti-corruption party announces salaries for pujaris.
Mm-hmm. I think that's why Dr. Man Mohans Loss felt so personal. It's important to highlight the IC movement could happen because the government let it. And the economy and circumstances at the time allowed critical thinking and dissent. Two winners emerged from that movement, Modi and Kejriwal. Kejriwal later hired teams to map out media houses and journalists who were doing positive, neutral, negative stories against AAP.
Scroll wrote a story on this. This team comprised research fellow who could have been used to solve AQI problems, first hand [01:35:00] information. I really wish that the Jasmine Shah interview had tougher questions.
Abhinandan: Point noted, Anonymous.
Manisha: Arif says, Dear Hafta team, I wish you all a very happy 2025 and many plaudits for your great work.
I start with my great appreciation of your commendable work. I know it's not possible anymore, but I wish to return to the era when news was broadcast twice a day and presented only as facts. Personally, I believe that Trump's rhetorics per se are the rants of a senile old uncle who's been poked and bullied for years and now he somehow got a stick to change.
He's not been poked and bullied for years. You should watch The Apprentice, his rise. He's not had a bad time. I think he's actually pretty much gotten away with everything all his life. The real threat is the rise of information magnets like Zuckerberg and Musk. These are the people who would, who will decide what will be passed for future generations history.
I'm not sure how much I would want Twitter and Facebook to be the signposts of history. [01:36:00] But they will definitely be central to it. Admirer says, I was watching the video of the podcast and something stirred within me whenever Abhinandan looks over his glasses to look at the camera, almost as if staring into my soul.
Abhinandan: Thank you. You can gift a subscription to someone else on a related note.
Manisha: As I stare into your soul,
Abhinandan: stare into your soul and flash this QR code.
Manisha: Saras says, want to say vote for Meghnath if any of you are in Malvya Nagar. Also, whenever PM says double engine Sarkar, does it mean that he's telling voters that he won't help state governments unless they vote for him?
Abhinandan: He is, I mean, and that's
Manisha: what
Abhinandan: actually, uh, former CEC Qureshi said in the interview that I had done with him several months ago, that it is such an undemocratic line, which is being used by anchors. It has been used by politicians. I mean, there is no such thing as double engine Sarkar. No matter which Sarkar is there, it should be a double engine.
Manisha: Yeah. True. Absolutely. And
Abhinandan: that is exactly the message. Unless you vote for BJP, we will make sure [01:37:00] everybody else's work gets through. Like, what are all the governments doing? Actually, you're right. I never thought
Manisha: like this. It is double engine anyway. Whoever. Because it's two governments.
Abhinandan: I mean, it's like the California wildfires, no?
Like. Uh, I don't know. I think it's a speaker of the house. Whoever's in charge of federal funds, they said, unless you know, California falls, you
Jayashree: change your water management. We will not know on
Abhinandan: other issues unrelated to the auto management.
Jayashree: Yeah.
Abhinandan: Unless they fall in line, they will not get federal help.
And now of course, Trump is saying everyone should be on their own federal help should not be there. FEMA should not be a part of that whole thing. So I think it is completely a blackmailing tactic, and I think it's completely unconstitutional. It is vile, and I don't know how anchors get excited by double engined Sarkar.
Jayashree: It
Manisha: is
Jayashree: the kind of thing that the election commission should be
Manisha: taking note of,
Jayashree: because it is blatantly unconstitutional.
Manisha: It says, do we have a chart on central funds to state governments before and after BJP state and par, a myth buster or booster on double engined Sarkar? Not a bad exercise to do.
That's a
Abhinandan: good idea.
Manisha: Kritika says, Hi NL team. Congratulations on the wonderful work [01:38:00] that you do. There have been several discussions regarding violence against women in recent years. I wonder if you guys could also discuss it from the perspective of the perpetrator. Who are these men committing these crimes?
What leads young men to be so glaringly radicalized against women? I see some alarming behavior from young men online, grotesque misogyny, transphobia, intertwined with overt Hindu nationalism, caste pride. As was pertinent in the aftermath of the US elections, radicalization of young men in India via social media, that is manosphere, deserves much more attention.
Abhinandan: Actually, this is a very good point. You know, I think through a podcast, it could really help because there are certain cliches that we say because they sound right. But they miss a lot of nuance of, of, you know, anger against, um, uh, you know, the perpetrators of these. It creates certain, you know, taglines, which then appears is actually the common for all these guys.
And it is like this whole article, I think, uh, [01:39:00] Manisha, had you suggested it, someone had suggested a long piece on incels. In the U. S. it had appeared, I think, in Slate or New York Times.
Manisha: I could have.
Abhinandan: Maybe two, three years ago. It was a really fascinating piece about how the mind of many of these incels, I mean, some of them are just unpopular.
Uh, you know, some of them have other issues. It's very diverse and not all of them are exactly the same perpetrators. I mean, some of them's public persona is very different from how they're privately. It was an interesting piece.
Manisha: Anuradha says, I just renewed my NLTNM subscription via website and not play store so that my money would go to your account, not to Google.
I really love all your work. And I also attended last year's media rumble and enjoyed it. My new favorite segment is what's your ism. I love Sudipto's style of interviewing. Also, I wanted to appreciate Anand's points of views during Hafta. Most often, I agree with their takes. Dream team. Sorry, Abhinandan.
Abhinandan: Yeah, [01:40:00] I'm just here to look into your soul.
Manisha: So Anonymous says Hawa Ka Haq should also be in portrait mode. And I would like to see an NL Sena for it. But you can contribute. Even if there's no NL Sena, you can support the project. I didn't see the need for Mr. Amitav on last week's panel. There were discussions on journaling, Elon's changing definition of media, US copying India's age old approach from an actor's endorsement to the possible narrative governance, and importance of journalists.
Many noticeable journalists are switching or capsizing like Dilip Mondal. Maybe you all ignored it purposefully. Purposely or it slipped through but a small part of me is ashamed that the death of the reporter and the significance It has on all you guys personally and us as a society was not part of the discussion Independent media needs at least to be vocal about independent reporter, but adilipanda was never a reporter No, I think he's talking about mukesh.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Yeah. No, but what he's saying is that That is Death
Jayashree: of the Reporter. Oh, that is one [01:41:00]
Abhinandan: that is, no, it was not a metaphorical death report. The literal murder, murder, murder. That happened actually also at, at that time. I had read a few pieces on it. It was a bit, um, I mean, I don't know, I maybe you're right, we should, that seems
Manisha: to be a family angle, but there's definitely political angle and his mining, you know, his reporting on.
We should have mentioned that.
Abhinandan: Yeah, I think we should have mentioned, but the only thing is when you get into a very detailed discussion. At least for me, Anon, a certain amount of information that is one can be fairly credible or sure about is important. And because I had read some conflicting, you know, reports and spoken to people, uh, it was that the whole family angle, you know, one doesn't want to, you know, misspeak is the word, I guess.
and attribute motive when you're not really sure of it at that stage. So, but yeah, if we investigate a little, maybe we can get more clarity.
Jayashree: But that's it. But as a headline, read Prateek's piece on it. I think it's a very good sort of first person account [01:42:00] of his memory of Mukesh. And that talks about a lot of the work and significance, even though we don't know the specifics of this case yet.
Abhinandan: Right.
Manisha: Yuyutsu says, Hafta episode 519 was amazing. I was just blown away by Amitabh's control over his diction in both Hindi and English. It was mesmerizing to listen. Both Abhinandan and Ravish keep saying TV news in India is dead, so I got curious and have been collecting YouTube views, numbers of both legacy media channels and digital media since 2024, September.
And legacy media views are almost three times more than the digital media. You can check the data here and feel free to use this anywhere you want. If you want to embed these charts, just drop me an email.
Abhinandan: This is fantastic. It's so, yes, we will. There's
Manisha: no doubt that in an NDTV as legacy channels would have more than digital media views.
The base is just too big. Um, you, you'd, so again says, forgot to mention one thing in my last email, both [01:43:00] Abhinandan and Atul sang in last week's episodes of Hafta and Charcha respectively. Was that planned? No disrespect to Abhinandan, but Atul won this round hands down. He's too good a singer. Waiting for more rounds of
Abhinandan: singing.
No, it wasn't, it wasn't planned. But yeah.
Manisha: But I really liked that chacha cut that they did with the little banter and the singing.
Abhinandan: Okay,
Manisha: now you can read the big ones. More than 150 words.
Abhinandan: So these are the more than 150 words, but we will abruptly cut at 150 words because that's the rule we are following from now.
Jayashree: Okay. So, sorry.
Abhinandan: Yeah. One point Anand wants to make
Anand: about, uh, two meals about journaling and Amitabh Kumar because I was supposed to interview him for the book, but I didn't because it clashed with my exam timings. So, uh, first is diction is, um, um. He went to St. Michael's in Patna. He is from a very privileged, bureaucratic, his father was an IAS officer.
[01:44:00] So, uh, St. Michael's is known for language teaching. Both English and Hindi, though it's almost 180 years old school. It was once considered the, um, best school in East India, better than even in those in Kolkata and Darjeeling. So, uh, people from West Bengal came to Patna to be admitted there in that school.
So, uh, I think that would be one of the emphasis on diction and this is there in that. You can self learn it also, but maybe that is my, what you can say, um, probable explanation for his diction proficiency. But the second thing is about journaling. So I wanted to ask him and, and youngsters who are listening it, it's a, of course those [01:45:00] books are self indulgent.
Because Any writing about writing is self indulgent because you are giving a pedagogical tool to how to write. But the latest book is about like Observer's Notebook. So when you If you make observation, uh, prescription, then it becomes a task. It does not remain observation as such because, uh, it becomes a means to an end, not an end in itself.
Because. Observation's appeal is in its purposelessness. Once you make observation a tool to gather material for your artistic and literary work, it becomes work. So, when I am here in a cafe looking, I am a writer and looking at people to observe, I am observing people for my material, then it's a work.
[01:46:00] Observation has to be random, purposeless. It comes. And also, Uh, writers emphasize it more because they get a lot of compliments for their observations. So they overemphasize it to students who, to whom they teach creative writing. And that also happens because, uh, Uh, if I think one writer wrote it well and he admitted it well, that observation is actually corrupted memory.
You have memory of something, but you filter out things that are not useful to you. Mm-hmm. And say something that is useful to you and put it as observation, so it's as actually corrupted memory. So it depends on how you, you can also say it's filtered memory that you, yeah. Filtered memory left the
Abhinandan: impurities.
But speaking of, sorry, of, of, you know. Doing something and then making it work. I remember the person who actually got me into NewsTrack, Sabrina. She was doing a story on India's dirty magazines, you know, the [01:47:00] debonairs and they were there used to be many. Many, many, many. Fantasy, fantasy was one. There were three, I didn't even heard it.
There was this thadda of magazines lying on the internet. There was no internet. So I was like, Sabrina, what are all these magazines doing? She said, I'm doing a story on this. I'll be a researcher. So I did very good research. I was not 19 or 20 and she did a fantastic story on it actually. But, uh, yeah, I had a lot of research, which is work.
Okay.
Jayashree: Uh, so the longest letters, the first one is from VR. So VR says your economist guess. Asserted that the rupee depreciated because of new capital investment flows into the U. S. because of Trump's business friendly policies. This is inaccurate. The dollar appreciated against almost all currencies over the last couple of years because U.
S. treasuries, which are the most liquid and risk free investments on the planet, are yielding over 4. 6 [01:48:00] percent. Given these risk free yields, participants are moving away from riskier assets. Emerging markets. Treasury yields have been higher because the Fed has had federal funds rate higher to fight inflation.
The immediate cause of the last couple of weeks for yields to rise is that latest inflation and unemployment numbers showed a more than expected stronger U. S. economy, which led to fewer expectations of rate cuts next year. This means treasury yields are expected to stay higher for the next couple of weeks.
Plight to treasuries will continue to increase and the dollar strength has little to do with foreign direct investment for business friendly policies.
Abhinandan: Thanks VR for this. I hope this is useful for our audience. But, um, you know what you said, in fact, in the last week, There has been more flight of capital out of the country and markets, so it's just getting worse.
Jayashree: Commander Shepard has sneakily written a three part email. No, but we only read one.
Abhinandan: Commander Shepard, you are coming up with loopholes.
Jayashree: The first part is mostly full of praise. for himself because commander [01:49:00] says commander is here to push the boundaries and come up with loopholes in email word limit rules.
As an Indian, it's in my blood to find out how to not be polite and not follow rules that do not change the world. As an Indian, I'm happy to follow the rule that oppresses us though. Firstly, Mr. Sekri's mediocre man rule applies to everything in this world. I really like how he framed it. Second, the recommendation given by Shardul Arkane, he didn't sell it well, it's the best animation ever produced by Humanity as a collective, it was developed for three years, even before it was sold to Hire Upset Riot, which is now a Chinese military company.
And their passion for IP is unmatched, they spent 250 million dollars on it, so it's the most expensive animation project. He's also written another long paragraph on Arkane, which you can read, it'll be in the Link and he says, please cloak this, please close this loophole after this episode. Now I know why Boomers hate Gen Z.
Abhinandan: Right?
Jayashree: Who is Gen Z here, though? No one
Abhinandan: maybe all older. No. Maybe [01:50:00] Colonel Shepherd is Gen Z. No. Commander Shepherd. Commander.
Jayashree: Commander Shepherd is not sounding, it's sounding like a boomer or a millennial. Not a boomer.
Abhinandan: For sure. A boomer would not know so much about, uh, video games.
Jayashree: How dare you, dude.
Manisha: What an ageist remark.
Yeah, we are the boomers and Commander Shepard is the Gen Z, I think.
Abhinandan: You're not a boomer, you're a millennial. But
Manisha: whatever, like.
Abhinandan: But yeah, I mean, dude, such, such intricate detail about an animation game is definitely not anyone 50 and above would know jack shit about it.
Jayashree: Okay, so Commander is Gen Z then.
Next, uh, email is from Mibin Maman, says Joe, I don't have that team. Episode 519 was insightful, especially the statement by Avinandan at the end, talking about how India is a pioneer on everything, from ads to Trump's antics. Even though the latter, I know the latter to be true, as I was following some of Trump's statements, it's eerily similar to BJP leaders Yogi and Modi, and their renaming frenzy.
On another note, you should try and collaborate with New Humanitarian, which is an international news [01:51:00] substitute for News Laundry. It has the same subscriber model and he's given a link to one of their pieces.
Abhinandan: Thank you so much.
Jayashree: On a fun note, will you interview Meghnad who becomes the candidate for the Malviya seat?
Abhinandan: Well, he is the candidate. So yeah, maybe when you're doing a walk around, he's going
Manisha: to be with us for one election show.
Abhinandan: Yeah. One election show, he'll be a guest.
Jayashree: Next email from Shweta, who says she's been a long time subscriber, really love the work you do. Hafta has been my go to source for weekly news updates.
However, I've noticed that recent episodes feel heavily opinion driven. Opinions are valuable and I get off late why all of us have so many opinions these, these days. I also turn to Hafta for hard facts and news coverage. At times it feels like a single headline is presented, listeners are left to dig deeper elsewhere before returning to hear your take.
It would be great to include a dedicated 10 minute segment of straight, emotionless, Abhinandan interruption free news and facts before diving into the panel's discussions. In a world where [01:52:00] reliable sources of truth are becoming scarce, I think it's important for us to focus on presenting clear, accurate facts alongside your opinion.
Abhinandan: So, um, Shweta, we Actually had, uh, for maybe over a year, we ran two daily bulletins, uh, but just the cost benefit analysis of, uh, running those daily bulletins. And the amount of people who actually heard them was dismal. I mean, Hafta and Charcha do really well. A lot of people listen to them because many people are not daily news listeners.
Um, so that's how we discontinue it because a producer or a reporter or both would be dedicated from, you know, two o'clock onwards, if not earlier, and then record it by evening, put it out by night. So that's why I think she's saying,
Jayashree: I think she's saying we should include it in the Hafta though.
Abhinandan: Oh, so the headlines
Manisha: can just be very uninterrupted and.
We used to do that though, right? Then we made it more chatty.
Abhinandan: Yeah, we can
Manisha: make it less chatty.
Jayashree: Anonymous says the Vrinda interview should have ideally [01:53:00] had the following structure, especially if it's named Atul Subash men's rights, etc. Should talk about the law, what leads to such cases, the demand of making it gender neutral.
And if against making it gender neutral, explain what the knock on effect is of it being gender neutral. 90 percent of the podcast went into women maltreatal atrocities. I agree it's a reality, but it ended up superseding the fact that the one sided nature of a law killed someone. The hypothetical nature with which someone's death was treated was very weird.
Look, I agree that men's rights activists are a bunch of misogynistic losers, but the manner in which NL has covered the Atul Subhash case has been appalling. Nothing should be biased one way or another and be left to the goodwill of a human. May we have a different perspective on board.
Abhinandan: Noted.
Jayashree: Right wing comrade says, Hi everyone, hope you're fine. Can you please share your views on the martyr graveyards of Kashmir and associated stories? Is it possible for you to have a cross border session with TCM of Pakistan? and discuss [01:54:00] common issues like AQI. Can you talk about the latest drug menace in Jammu and Kashmir, the role of the state and the police?
I've also noticed we tend to live in the past, like the partition crisis, Sikh riots, the Pandit exodus. But when it comes to the issue of the Kashmir, of Kashmir plebiscite and the Jammu massacre, why does our memory start to fade away? One evil can't justify the other, but if we are to mention one of the stories, the other also needs a mention.
Well, Manisha, you're the best. More power to you.
Abhinandan: So, Writer In
Jayashree: Comrade, we actually I
Manisha: thought you were saying that. Randomly.
Abhinandan: Randomly. I said
Manisha: thanks, Jayshree.
Abhinandan: No, Writer In Comrade, one of our most heavily resource intensive productions has been Kashmir Ki Kahani. The, you know, comic book graphic novel we produced.
We've done Two or three podcasts on Kashmir
Manisha: and including the news track tape at Madhu
Abhinandan: we did sat in on with Alur. We've done a few stories, but if you are talking about specific [01:55:00] instances, like we, uh, you know, did a podcast purely on the violence in Punjab, possibly yes. On no, but in the militancy
Manisha: or that in
Abhinandan: the, in the Kashmir podcast.
One of the episodes was. On that, when that Azaan started and the threats to Kashmiri Pandits started, um, we've actually covered that. The link will be in the show notes. Do have a look at that. It's difficult
Manisha: to do anything new in Kashmir. It was a two or three part
Abhinandan: podcast. We covered it quite in detail.
Manisha: In fact, it's post abrogation Kashmir, I think, which has been less reported on.
Abhinandan: Right.
Manisha: That, that's where the space is.
Jayashree: The next email is from Anonymous, who says, What Zuckerberg bending over for Trump means is us looking at other platforms becoming more like Twitter, where, and I'm not sure if you guys have noticed, but stuff like racism, misinformation, and hate is king.
Because my work involves a bigger interaction with the West, being called a stinky, smelly, piss drinking Indian is very common. It's also quite common to be randomly called names from fellow Indian. [01:56:00] The unfortunate bit is that none of this qualifies as hate speech on Twitter. So, from now onwards, this Might be the case on other platforms as well.
Now, regarding the whole Democrats going to woke, costing them the elections, this is just not true, in terms of data. In a 5 year period from 2018 to 2022, less than 1, 000 sex change operations were registered in the US, and less than 2, 000 cases of hormone suppression. The problem is that the trans identity is the new Islam of the West.
Oh. My God, next is from another anonymous who says on what the future holds in 2025, the world will move more and more to the right. A world has a progressive outlook when things are great. When that's not the case, they look for people to blame. And more often than not, it's the migrant who doesn't look like them or that fellow who believes in a different imaginary being, or well, women.
Case in point, a few days ago, a very famous Muslim sportsman, Khabib Nurmagomedov, I think I mispronounced that, was basically racially profiled and kicked off a flight in the US. [01:57:00] There's a link. This is going to be more and more acceptable in the West and will trickle down to the rest of the world. Great times ahead.
Abhinandan: On a side
Jayashree: note, Nikhil Kamath saw Joe Rogan pull off the worst possible interview of Donald Trump and thought he could do it worse. Thought, no, thought. We have to
Abhinandan: end at 150 words. The rest is, that's the 151st word you've read. Oh,
Jayashree: fine, fine. The rule is you have to cut off. Saw Joe Rogan pull off the worst possible interview of Donald Trump and thought.
Abhinandan: And thought. Sorry, we cross the word limit anonymous, so we will not read beyond 150 words.
Manisha: You have to log on to the website to read the full letter. But you know on this
Abhinandan: one point that he's made, we've already seen the impact of that after the Proud Boys were pardoned and many guys who attacked the police were pardoned on the January 6th rioters, yesterday there have been attacks on police by guys wearing Proud Boys jackets.
And actually taunting the police, you know, Trump has pardoned us. Now we're not scared of you. Of course it'll happen. It's like in India. I mean, it's, it's not like, you know, uh, people were not lynched on, uh, on, on lines, religious lines earlier. Of course it happened. [01:58:00] But the brazenness with which it happens.
And it being celebrated as if it's like a grey area is a new thing.
Manisha: Atli, we shouldn't be so mean to this person, yaar. I feel a little bad.
Abhinandan: Which person? Let's
Manisha: let her write it. Let's just finish it. He said,
Abhinandan: Not reading the 151st is being mean.
Manisha: It's a little, like, unnecessary. You know, we've talked more than, it would have been, this would have finished faster.
We chatted away, yaar. Yeah, he
Jayashree: says, uh, he's Nikhil Kamath saw Joe Rogan pull off the worst possible interview of Donald Trump and he thought he could do it worse. Therefore, we had the masterpiece with the great PM who was asked about Melanie, not the tanking stock markets or the outflowing FIIs or other relevant stuff.
So the next email of which I will only read half because it's nearly 300 words is from Nachiket who says, hi team listening to the last few haftas. I have a few ideas I want to share, maybe worth looking into. And if you have already, then great. Like your annual Ramnath Roenka award, you should do an award ceremony for best reports of the year.
Tiffany has a section like [01:59:00] this. You can award categories from different states, topics, fields. This way you give space to great work done by reporters and give small reporters and news outfits a good stage. It'll give you an optimistic start to the year. Point. Next, I love the Hawa Kahak project. Just wondering if English equivalent should be right to breathe instead of fight to breathe.
I do not know. Fine,
Manisha: fight to breathe also.
Jayashree: Doesn't have to be a literal translation. Number three, listening to podcasts on the app is a pain and we are cutting off here because that is the 150 mark. But
Manisha: we
Jayashree: shall read the whole thing on why
Manisha: it's a pain
Jayashree: and also we will publish the letter in full.
Abhinandan: In fact, uh, Nachiket, I have just sent your list of feedback to the tech team and they will get on a call with you to figure out what is wrong and why it's not working and we'll fix it.
And as we speak here, it has been sent. Thank you. On that note, uh, let's get the recommendations for the week and then we [02:00:00] can say goodbye. Do you want to go first, Jayshree?
Jayashree: Uh, yes. So, first, since we talked about the death penalty, I have dug out an old report on news laundry from 2016, which is on the death penalty.
It's called the death penalty report on death row. They die many deaths. So it talks about why capital punishment in India is very hard on the poor and marginalized. He says that, um, 97 percent of people interviewed for the project said they don't even have a lawyer. 82. 6 percent said custodial torture is widespread.
So it just basically gives you all the numbers as to why, how people suffer on death row. Uh, the piece is by Vinay Aravind. My next is a light read for the week. It's a memoir called Fly Girl by Anne Hood. So basically it's a young woman's experience in the late seventies and eighties of being a flight attendant.
So it's technically the golden age of flying, you know, so glamorous, so sophisticated. [02:01:00] She has to learn how to mix a cocktail, but also how to administer oxygen to passengers who need it. But also, you know, it's a lot of sexism and nostalgia and so on, but it's. It's just a stunning book. It's a very short 300 page book.
And finally, um, so I really like listening to This American Life. It's one of the first things I started listening to when I got into podcasts. It's feels very slice of life, very, every episode is different, but it still seems so similar. So this is a piece in The Guardian, which is an interview with Ira Glass of This American Life.
This is on the 25 year anniversary of the podcast. So it's on how it revolutionized radio. All
Abhinandan: right.
Jayashree: Uh,
Manisha: what, what is the podcast called? This American Life. This American Life. Okay. Sounds interesting.
Abhinandan: Okay. Uh, Anand, your recommendations.
Anand: Okay. I'm late to it, but, uh, it's regarding Sam Benegal. I had written an [02:02:00] obituary. I am recommending one of his films for a different reason. Not because it's an extraordinary film. It's a so so. An average film. It is somehow lifted by a few things that I will tell about. It's Junoon, 1978. Yeah, Jennifer Ange.
Yeah. So it's based on Ruskin Bond's novel, A Flight of Pigeons. So I have written an obituary of Benegal, and I have started with a scene in it, the last scene. And Sanjay Bahru was talking about the difference between the movie and the book, and which is true, most of the movies are duds, based on books.
So, uh, but here, I think he, his interpretation of the last scene. I didn't write it in the obituary, but I always thought that Shyam Benegal was an admaker who moved into films. So he could [02:03:00] make films on briefs. He didn't have a large cinematic vision, but if you give him a brief like Amul and, uh, or Discovery of India or, or some Weaver's, uh, So, basically, he had an admaker's vision, which enlarged into filmmaking.
And here also, his interpretation, so there is a last scene and, and it's extraordinary because two mediocre actors are there, like Sasi Kapoor, many may like it, but he, for his choice of films later in his career, but he was an average actor and, uh, young Nafis So, it's a, he's a mid aged married man and he's, uh, um, he has captured, not captured, but um, a family is in custody and he is in love with this girl and for the whole film she doesn't.
Uh, utter his name, and he has [02:04:00] given his word to the family that if the, it is set against, uh, as the backdrop of 1857 revolt, that if Indians lose to the Britain, I will not, uh, enter into your life. I will leave the girl alone. And when she utters, uh, his word, when he is leaving, he is simply stunned into silence.
Now. Uh, Beal interpret it, uh, a way better than Mr. Bond does in his novel. So I think , it's not a rare occasion. Yeah, rare occasion because he's stunned, because not because he is honoring his word to her mother, but also because he has, uh, it seems nothing is. told, but it seems that he has a sense of inadequacy.
In inadequacy, he develops cold feet that how now I respond to it,
Abhinandan: right?
Anand: So he's a, uh, means a kind of disoriented man [02:05:00] because of the unexpected response. And So, that Benegal brings out better than, uh, Bond. Ruskin, Bond in the book. And also his tongue tied and he simply leaves. The moment for he was waiting for months, it comes, but he develops cold feet and that he brings out.
So, that's the film. Not an extraordinary film, but few scenes he has done Benegal, Mr. Benegal, very well. And second, uh, is a. Recently we were talking about mediocrity, so it's about by Manu Joseph. So it's about that why people have a right to their ordinariness, mediocrity. So actually Mr. Joseph is no feminist, far from it.
So but he says that women, when they are in some house, like say Smriti Irani or some many say actor or some. They are found out for their [02:06:00] mediocrity. They are, uh, uh, targeted more because if you are You have, you have to be very good to be not targeted if you are women. So, uh, if their mediocrity is exposed, then they are targeted more.
So, uh, uh, he brings a different point. He says that, uh, uh, the equal rights distribution comes when you respect mediocrity, ordinariness. So people have a right to live their ordinary lives in ordinary ways. So mediocrity, uh, When it becomes acceptable, that is the real equity. Interesting. Manisha?
Manisha: So, I'm quite enjoying Black Warrant, which is Shashi Kapoor's grandson, I think, right?
Very good actor. Very
Abhinandan: good.
Manisha: Really great series. And I think what really, you should watch the interview that you did with Sunetra and Sunil Gupta. It's basically based on a book by Sunetra, which looks at this former superintendent of Tihar jail, Sunil Gupta, his life and [02:07:00] experiences there. And the softness of, you know, The man really comes across and it's really nice to see this tender jailer And that comes across in your interview quite a bit because he cries.
Yeah,
Abhinandan: in fact, he told me
Manisha: At
Abhinandan: the screening I met him so he said Abhinandan Jeet In your interview, you know, I cried spontaneously. After that, every interview I went for, people expected me to cry.
Manisha: And people would be too politically correct now to cry for Afzal Guru. And he's, he's, he just, that really comes across in the movie, the softness that he has.
So I quite enjoyed, um, enjoying the series and definitely watch the interviews for subscribers only. So something new to watch for you, even though it's old in case you've missed it and a piece in New Yorker is social media more like cigarettes or junk food? This is
Abhinandan: And what is it more like?
Manisha: Read it. But it's more about regulation like because there are European countries that are regulating social media for kids to [02:08:00] ban it.
So Australia is important. Australia also. Australia has already. Yeah,
Abhinandan: they've made it some teens aren't allowed on this consent or something. Right. I have two recommendations. One is the Um, interview by BBC of the QAnon shaman, who was the guy with the horns, who stormed into, uh, the Capitol.
Manisha: Who has nothing to do with QAnon.
He cleared it.
Abhinandan: Yeah, but yeah, that was what it was called, but it is a fascinating interview. To see the typical Trump bases like, uh, how to conduct an interview with a hostile party for journalists and just for its comic value. Uh, and my second recommendation is a podcast on the indicator Add to Cart Greenland.
Uh, it talks about historically,
Manisha: uh,
Abhinandan: historically countries that have actually been purchased or parts of countries. In fact, [02:09:00] America is made. By purchasing tracts of land from different occupying powers and sometimes striking deals with Native Americans. Sometimes
Manisha: snatching away.
Abhinandan: Or making offers you can't refuse.
That look, you take this money and give us this land or then you won't even get back. And as
Manisha: early as 1900s. It's not like something that they did a long time ago. So
Abhinandan: it's an interesting one to put in context. It's just that the crass nature with which Trump suggests it makes us forget. That it has been done in a very normal way as well in the past.
Manisha: Yeah.
Abhinandan: Uh, so yeah, it's not. And that is
Manisha: the best way to understand his popularity. He's just saying it like it is. Like so many of the Trump supporters say, we like him cause he says it like it is.
Abhinandan: Yeah. On that note, uh, we shall say goodbye to you, but not before we thank our wonderful sound recordist Anil, our producer Priyali, uh, and our panelists, Jayshree, Anand and Manisha.
Jayashree: [02:10:00] Thank you. Pay
Abhinandan: to keep news free, contribute, and hopefully we will get you some more on Delhi election. As time goes by. Until then, enjoy this song. Have a fantastic weekend, and always support independent media.
-: Place you can go, man, when you, you can there and I'm
all the time. It's fun to stay at the YMC. It's fun at the YM.[02:11:00]
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