This week, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Raman Kirpal were joined by former Supreme Court judge Justice Madan Lokur and political journalist Neerja Choudhury.
Neerja describes Dr Manmohan Singh, who died this week, as a “gentleman politician and a unifying figure” who will be remembered for his “decency in politics” and landmark contributions such as the RTI Act, MGNREGA, and the Indo-US nuclear deal. Justice Lokur says, “He was a great man and a great loss for the country.”
Manisha reflects on the media’s role during Singh’s tenure, saying, “Back then, leaders were judged critically but fairly, without fear of retribution.”
Abhinandan adds, “Manmohan Singh’s leadership taught us that decency is not a weakness but a strength in politics.”
On the media and judicial accountability, Justice Lokur acknowledges the increased public scrutiny on courts. “There must be ways to check judges without undermining the institution,” he says, referencing the need for mechanisms beyond impeachment. Neerja criticises the sensationalism that’s come to define election coverage, saying the media’s role “is to hold power accountable, not amplify divisive rhetoric”.
The panel also reflects on key events of 2024. Neerja cautions that the “challenge to Modi’s leadership might come from the extreme right within the BJP itself”. Manisha points out the troubling rhetoric in election speeches, adding, “The prime minister’s speeches targeting minorities were demoralising and crossed a line.”
Raman highlights the year’s highs and lows, saying, “The coalition government formation was a relief for democracy, but the political language this year hit new lows.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
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Song: Unstoppable
Audio timecodes
00:00:00 - Introductions
00:02:49 - Headlines
00:09:53 - NL Sena announcements
00:11:18- Manmohan Singh’s legacy
00:34:52 - Media, judiciary, and key events of 2024
01:03:06 - Announcements
01:11:46 - Subscriber letters
01:19:14 - Recommendations
References
NL Sena: The Hindu Rashtra project
Exclusive: In 3 Lok Sabha seats swung by BJP, many wrong voter deletions, violations of EC norms
In Farrukhabad, targeted voter deletions came before BJP’s thin victory margin
Manmohan Singh was loud enough for those who cared to listen
Delhi के नफ़रती बहसबाजों की अंदरूनी दुनिया | Ground Report
As 2024 ends, here are 10 stories that exemplify the power of independent journalism
I Agree With Harvinder Kaur Chowdhury
Recommendations
Neerja
A Part Apart: The Life and Thought of B.R. Ambedkar
Madan
Manisha
Manmohan Singh was loud enough for those who cared to listen
Delhi के नफ़रती बहसबाजों की अंदरूनी दुनिया | Ground Report
As 2024 ends, here are 10 stories that exemplify the power of independent journalism
Raman
Strictly Personal: Manmohan and Gursharan
Exclusive: In 3 Lok Sabha seats swung by BJP, many wrong voter deletions, violations of EC norms
In Farrukhabad, targeted voter deletions came before BJP’s thin victory margin
Abhinandan
What Went Wrong With Capitalism: Ruchir Sharma
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.
Produced and recorded by Prashant Kumar and Priyali Dhingra.
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Sting: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry Podcast, and you're listening to NL Hafta. Angreze apna lagaan
Abhinandan: aur News Laundry chhodte. We are here with the last episode of Hafta for 2024. And I must say, uh, we have, uh, never had such an accomplished panel. Yes. So you'll hear very little of me, uh, because we have two amazing guests, uh, who I shall just introduce, but I want to wish everybody a happy new year.
Uh, and I hope 2025 is more democratic, uh, more open to free speech and journalism grows a little bit as it has diminished over the past decade, in my view, but some of you may disagree. And on that note, I'd like to remind you to pay to keep news free. Because when the public pays, the public is served. We take no ads at all.
The guests that we have today, other than our ghar [00:01:00] ki murugi daal barabar,
Manisha: which is
Abhinandan: Raman Kirpa. Hi. Manisha
Manisha: Pandey.
Abhinandan: Hello. Happy New Year. Yes. But, uh, we are thrilled to have with us the recently appointed Judge Madan Lokur. He's a former Supreme Court judge. He's to chair the UN Internal Justice Council.
Congratulations, sir.
Madan: Thank you. Thank you.
Abhinandan: And, uh, what does this mean, really?
Madan: Well, uh, you know, I'm going to have, uh, an orientation program. They're going to conduct an orientation program for me on the 3rd of January. So then I'll get to know the details. But, um, as far as I know, you know, we have to, uh, give a report at the end of the year on the developments that have taken with regard to dispute resolution issues.
in the United Nations among the staff and the management.
Abhinandan: Right. Well, that's some, some big disputes are going to come there, but, uh, I'm sure most of you already know who Justice [00:02:00] Madan Lokur is, but he has been acting Chief Justice of Delhi High Court and Chief Justice of Guwahati and Andhra Pradesh High Courts.
Uh, he began his judicial career as an additional judge in the Delhi High Court in 1999. And he also, of course, has served in the Supreme Court of India. Also joining us is one of India's most, I'd say, well known a repository of political history, Neerja Choudhury, one of our favorite guests. Thank you for joining us.
And always a pleasure and lots to get from you today because it is also, they've just announced the passing of Dr. Manmohan Singh, the former prime minister, who you have had several interactions with. In fact, you spoke briefly about him in earlier Hafta. So we shall discuss that a little more. But before that, let's get quickly get the headlines and then get straight into the discussion.
Manisha: Yes. Former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh died in New Delhi on Thursday. He was 92. Tributes poured in across party lines [00:03:00] following his death with many hailing him as one of India's most distinguished leaders. The center has announced a seven day state mourning across the country and his funeral will be conducted with full state honor.
Just before we began recording, Mr. Modi was addressing the nation.
Song: Yeah.
Manisha: On his legacy. The union government amended the conduct of election rules to the effect that not all election related documents can be assessed by the public. This comes day after Punjab and Haryana High Court directed the election commission to provide videography, security camera footage, and copies of documents related to votes polled at a polling station during the recently concluded Haryana election.
The Election Commission rejected the Congress's allegation of arbitrary additions and deletions of voter names. And the poll body also said that voter turnout at 5 p. m. cannot be compared with the final tally. I agree with the last point of the 5 p. m. tally, because they are constantly updating it, but voter addition and deletion is something they have to address.
This is a constant problem. In fact, we've done [00:04:00] a thorough report EC officials have told us. Yes. We need more clear guidelines on what to do with additions, especially the Delhi government's department of health, in addition to its department for women and child development have distanced themselves from two welfare schemes announced by Aam Aadmi Party.
Raman: Unprecedented. So
Manisha: there was this whole bureaucrats versus government that played out. So
Raman: this is the political bureaucracy.
Manisha: But of course, these are not schemes. These are election promises that most parties make. During elections.
Abhinandan: But it would be interesting to see if every state, whenever a party that is in government makes an election promise to the bureaucrats, issue a statement saying this is not happening.
Manisha: In fact, there have been so many reports, for example, I think in Himachal or something when Congress had announced a Behruzgari Bhatta or something, they had given cards, which they do. It's like a gimmick. So there were some reports that people have reached the office saying that now you've won. Give us.
Yeah. So, in a significant order, the Supreme Court has restrained the ED from assessing and copying content from electronic [00:05:00] devices seized during searches against San Diego Martin, also known as Lottery King. So good. Everyone should know this. Your devices cannot be just seized. Too late.
Abhinandan: Mine were.
Although.
Manisha: But no ED came to you.
Abhinandan: No, it was income tax. But you took
Manisha: them to court.
Abhinandan: I took them to court. I won. But as I was told, what really can we do? They've probably made 50 copies. So even if you were to give an order to delete them. What good is the order?
Manisha: President Draupadi Murmu appointed two new governors and reassigned three others, reorganizing leadership across five states.
Former Union Home Secretary Ajay Kumar Bhalla has been appointed as governor of Manipur and the former Army Chief General, retired Vijay Kumar Singh. who's also served as a minister in the last two terms of the Modi government has been named new governor of Mizoram.
Abhinandan: It is just me but he didn't seem too happy.
Sorry.
Manisha: Arif Ahmed Khan goes to Bihar now from Kerala. The Aam Aadmi Party on Thursday said it would seek the removal of Congress from the opposition India bloc if action is not taken against Ajay Makan, who called Arvind [00:06:00] Kejriwal anti national. So India versus India. Before elections, Delhi elections, as expected, the Delhi police recently arrested 11 people for aiding Bangladeshi nationals.
Meanwhile, I think in a very disturbing order, the Delhi government instructed schools in the capital to prevent enrollment of undocumented Bangladeshi migrant children and notify the authorities. If there were doubts about a student's citizenship status. I
Abhinandan: wonder how they'll do it. Which is
Manisha: terrible.
Rhetoric. This is just uh,
Abhinandan: just for optics. I don't even see how they'll be able to do it. Just for optics.
Manisha: Because even if there are refugee students, even with this whole, I mean they're kids. Education in a public school even. Even if they're not Indian citizens, I don't think that should be political discourse.
50 year old Dalit man was beaten to death by a group of men in Chhattisgarh on suspicion of trying to steal a sack of rice. In another news, a 19 year old youth was dragged out of his house, beaten to death by a mob in Chhattisgarh again, simply because they thought he had stolen three sacks of paddy.[00:07:00]
Abhinandan: And this is the second such case in the state.
Manisha: President Draupadi Murmu named former Supreme Court Judge V Subramaniam as the chairperson of the National Human Rights Commission. The Congress said that this appointment was made without adequate consultation.
Abhinandan: V Rama Subramaniam. So, so this is supposed to be by consensus, this appointment.
What, what is the procedure?
Madan: Yeah, you know, they have a, uh, A sort of a collegium consisting of the prime minister, leader of the opposition, uh, and I think the home minister. Um, so they decide who is to be appointed. So, I suppose it's the majority decision that, Okay, so it has
Abhinandan: to be, it's majority, it doesn't have to be,
Madan: I don't, as far as I know, it doesn't have to be, you know, unanimous.
Manisha: Beef vendors in Goa held a strike to protest attack by cow vigilante groups in Margao. As a result of which there's beef shortage in Goa, which even BJP supporters will be upset about in [00:08:00] Goa because in Goa beef is beef power is important to everyone. Uttar Pradesh police registered an FIR against Bharatiya Shakya, two of his brothers and 13 others for an alleged gang rape, fraud and coercion, among other charges in Badain.
46 people, mostly women and children, were killed in airstrikes launched by Pakistan on Afghanistan's eastern border. East Ika province, and apparently the Afghan Taliban has now wowed retaliation and said, will they be marching to Saba or, yeah, they retaliation. There were some
Abhinandan: reports that they've, they've deployed certain parts of them to march towards Pakistan.
Let's see what happens. We've
Manisha: had a bunch of sad news this week, actually. Uh, empty was, so they were one of the most prominent figures in Malal literature. Died in Kerala, in cozy code. Then you had the news of Z Husan. Mm-hmm. Sha Beal also. So all in one week and then. with Manmohan Singh. Dr. Manmohan
Abhinandan: Singh.
Manisha: Yeah. At least 10 people, including five journalists were killed and more than a dozen injured in [00:09:00] Israeli strikes on Gaza. That continues. And I think one three year old, uh, in a camp in Gaza froze to death.
Abhinandan: Yeah. So it's been, um, Yeah, pretty horrible news coming from Gaza. Uh, and too many to mention the headline, but there were several cases since this was Christmas week, wherever many people celebrating Christmas.
There were handful of cases that we are aware of. Maybe they're more that we aren't, where some not decided to start shouting J Ram or other such slogans when people are celebrating Christmas. Uh, one TTO guy who was wearing a Santa costume was asked to remove his Santa costume, was asked, do you dress like Ram during.
The Shara and other such completely idiotic commentary, uh, which finds traction, um, standing by for when these people are garlanded by a cabinet minister. Uh, but we have a project, an NL Sena project, and as you know, our journalism is powered by you and not by any government ads, and [00:10:00] you want to do an in depth investigation that are these just outliers on social media, or is this whole Hindu Rashtra project where nutters have a free hand of attacking.
Shops that are serving beef or attacking people dressed as Santa. So it's the News Laundry Sena Hindu Rashtra project where villages and government buildings in Gujarat declare themselves Hindu Rashtra. A school in Madhya Pradesh fires a Muslim teacher after a communal clash. Signboards in Uttarakhand call for boycotting all non Hindus.
Uh, new groups fueled by Hindu nationalism aim to merge state and religion and many such cases. So who are the influential players who are actually behind this? How wide is their network? What are the resources being utilized? Uh, is there some institutional backing? So are. Crack team of journalists, Basant Pritam will explore these issues and they'll travel to at least four states, if not more.
And this entire journalism project is going to be funded by you. There's a QR code here. There's a link in the show notes. Support our journalism, support independent journalism. Do not leave it [00:11:00] to the advertise, uh, the advertisements of Adani or Nambani or a Modi or indeed a Kejriwal or so many times we see South ads.
front page on Delhi Times. I have no idea why. It should be funded by you. So that is my earnest request. Now, um, you know, let's start with, uh, the passing of Dr. Manmohan Singh. Neerja, you have written a book, uh, you know, on how prime ministers decide. In fact, we discussed that last time. What is the defining legacy according to you?
Because when you are the leader of, uh, You know, country that, especially as big as India, there will always be moral ambiguity. You know, for every good decision there will be a salvage for every, you know, RTI, which I have used on there will be A-U-A-P-A. Uh, and all this happened under those very eventful, 2004, 2000, uh 14.
And of course him as finance minister. So you've known [00:12:00] him, uh, he was of course a very decent person in his personal conduct. What is his defining legacy? And what criticism, which this is not the perfect time, but often there is a discussion that whenever someone passes, people just brush aside, you know, as they said that Mark Antony said, the evil that men do lives after them, the good is often interred with their bones in Julius Caesar.
How would you describe his defining legacy?
Neerja: See, uh, I think once the dust has settled, we will probably be able to take a more, um, rational view than we are today. This is very interesting, the kind of, uh, outpouring of, uh, loss, sense of loss that you see since last night when his death was announced. Uh, you feel that in some way the Prime Minister summed it up.
He said, And I think that's [00:13:00] true. De was the, the de is feeling a real, genuine, uh, sense of, uh, grief that this was a, and why is that? It's not because, uh, he was the, uh, author of an author along with, uh, nra, the Prime Minister in 1991 of Economical reforms, which has had a certain trajectory, uh, and putting there on the growth path.
Uh, not because he, uh, was the author of, with George Bush, U. S. president of the Indo U. S. nuclear deal, which, uh, strengthened the strategic relationship between India and the U. S. A. Those things are, you know, uh, in cold terms. You look at them, yes, this is his legacy. But what will he be remembered as? As a gentleman politician, as a good man, as a humble man, as a courteous figure.
And you know, the last time when I saw him was last year, when I asked to present my book to him. And he [00:14:00] wrote back saying, I've already bought it and read it, but please come. And it was lying, when I went, it was lying there on his table. And what was exercising him the most and at that time also he sat in this chair just looking ahead speaking so softly that I had to keep turning to his wife, you know, but very mentally alert all there and what was exercising in the most is the what he kept repeating the bitterness between the ruling side and the opposition and he kept saying this is not good for democracy.
Now Manmohan Singh Criticize the prime minister, the prime ministers criticize him. They called him Mani Baba and all kinds of things. But today the the government is announced seven day morning for a leader in the opposition. It is going to give him state honors. His funeral will be with [00:15:00] state honors.
Again, a leader of the country. Congress party, they love to criticize and love to hate. So I, I thought to myself, you know, uh, Manmohan Singh in his death has become a unifying figure. What he was talking about, you know, in the last months of his life, what exercised him. And um, so his legacy is going to be for ordinary people, decency, decency in politics.
Unifying elements in politics, not divisiveness. And, of course, as I say, there are the very, very, very important things that he was the author of. Which is, uh, in the diplomatic field, in the economic field. And, of course, he was the, he was the helmsman when all those important decisions were taken by the Congress Party of, uh, rights based approach.
[00:16:00] Thank you very much. Right to information, right to work, right to education, right to food, all that came during his premiership.
Abhinandan: Absolutely.
Neerja: Even though he would, you know, I know this and I've written about it also. He would often say, paisa kahan se aayega?
Abhinandan: Right, because he wasn't It wasn't that
Neerja: he was fully convinced, but he went along.
And it was under his leadership that all that was done.
Abhinandan: So I must say the only time I've spent any time in jail was one night in the lockup for the harrowing Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's house back in 2007 8 when we were doing the RTI protests. Uh, but, uh, and I was a huge critic, but one thing that I must say, I, that time I wasn't, you know, also it's like Trump makes Bush look good.
You know, I think Modi makes Bush look good. Dr. Singh Logood, although I think he was a very good man. But one thing that I was accused, critic, that he was absolutely right. And that is, I guess, with maturity and vision that history will judge me more kindly than the media did because the media really did attack him.[00:17:00]
But I don't know if, uh, you know, I'm correct or not, but at least between 2005 to 9 10 when the RTI movement will speak, what we used to get, because, you know, we were working with Arunaji, Aruna Roy, Nikhil Dey, Prashant Bhushan. So, you know, the drafts would be written off at Shekhar's house and sent through Arunaji to Sonia ji, et cetera.
Uh, what we were told is that Mr. Singh was not for the RTI. It was Sonia ji who pushed it through. Had it not been for her, he would, because I'm not saying he was dishonest, but he was a bureaucrat and a bureaucrat, like you have to extract information like a tooth. It is not that, let's put it like, you know, just like the Supreme, the changing the rules that we will not give the video footage, just put it out there.
No one should have to ask for it even. No,
Neerja: I think that's correct that all these rights based things. He didn't come out openly, though the first meeting that the, uh, NAC had led by Sonia Gandhi, she led the group on the [00:18:00] first day of meeting for a cup of tea with Manmohan Singh, and he received them at RCR, the Prime Minister's house.
And, uh, but RTI also, not so much as some other things, like right to food was a big thing. Right. That you remember kept, kept running into roadblocks. And I think the people who fronted his view were probably Montage Singh, Alu Walia and Chidambaram. Chidambaram.
Abhinandan: Right.
Neerja: But having said that, whatever be the inner, uh, differences that were aired and, uh, expressed, he went along with it.
Abhinandan: Absolutely, no. He went along with
Neerja: it and I, I, when history looks back and even today people are assessing his contribution. They will, they attributed to him. Yeah, the most landmark,
Abhinandan: yeah, some of the policy interventions.
Neerja: But you know, on what he was called the, probably the weakest prime minister, it used to be said.
And Sonia [00:19:00] Gandhi was seen as half prime minister, very powerful in his term. And the division, I remember Amit Patel was political secretary Sonia Gandhi, who used to say, you know, Dr. But that's not your. Of that's not in your domain virtually, uh, it is, uh, political side. We take care of administrative and governance side you take care of.
That was a kind of division. So, um, and this obviously rankled with him because again, when I went to present my book and he immediately opened the chapter and he liked the heading of the chapter, which was an. underrated prime minister who triumphed.
Song: So
Neerja: he felt, you know, it in a sense vindicated him. He didn't see himself as weak and certainly is the way he pushed through the Indo US nuclear deal.
Yeah. 39 long months.
Abhinandan: Actually, we will come to that. But before that Justice Lokur, you know, we also would like you to look back at 2024 [00:20:00] from the It was a very eventful year for the courts with many landmark judgments coming. But before we get to that, you know, your view on the passing of the former prime minister, the overwhelming legacy that you think he leaves behind.
Yeah.
Madan: You know, uh, actually I think Neeta has summed it up very well. Uh, two words, you know, which I liked, uh, was that he was a decent politician. There is no doubt that he was a great prime minister in several ways. Um, and he carried the nation along and his view of, uh, you know, inclusiveness, I mean, rather than divisiveness.
I think that is very important. And, uh, I think that is something that he will be remembered for. Everybody says, and which is obviously correct, that he was very humble. He was very down to earth, but yeah, a great man. And I think it's a great loss for our country. [00:21:00] that he has passed away.
Abhinandan: I understand that you were a serving judge till, you know, 2018.
So yeah, a lot of the time as a judge, it was under the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. So, I mean, I don't know what the protocol is that whether you can comment on the time when you were just a judge, but you've been someone who's been very outspoken on human rights since. And stuff. And I remember from that Operation Green Hunt to Arundhati Roy's cover story for Outlook, uh, the assault on human rights was highlighted back then in significant ways.
Now it is of a different kind. There are these, I mean, it is like chaos because of, I guess, the overwhelming message that this government has sent out that any tapori can violate human rights if anyone can get away with it. But, uh, You know, from a salvage and institutionalized violation. Do you, uh, do you have a view on was it an outlier during that time because of, you know, Mr.
Chidambaram's interventions or do you think that [00:22:00] was just part of how governments function back then?
Madan: In what way, with regard to the
Abhinandan: In regard to the institutionalization of mechanisms that, that violated the principles of justice while dealing with the Mao, with the Red Terror, quote unquote. Yeah, yeah.
Madan: Yeah, okay. Yeah, it did. There's no doubt about it and the Supreme Court has mentioned it. But you know, that's one aspect, okay. You also had the coal scam, for example, okay, that came during that period. Yeah. And I remember having dealt with it. Um, but, uh, yeah, you know, these things happen. It can't be that everything that happens is good.
Absolutely. Right? And, uh, there will be some, uh, you know, errors here or there or some steps that are taken, which you may not agree with, you know. At that point of time, you may say, fine, it's okay. You know, it's necessary because of what is happening in the country. But maybe five years [00:23:00] later, you may have a rethink about it.
You know, so to really pinpoint anything that happened during that period would be looking back, you know, and in sort of in hindsight to say whether that was okay or that was not okay, you know, it should have been done this way or it should have been done some other way. But there were some positives, you know, for example, like Neerja mentioned about the RTI.
Right. Very good. Then Manreka. Right. So very good. Right to education. Very good. So, yeah, I, I, I would prefer to look at the positives, you know, rather than the negatives. Uh, you could have, uh, you know, UAPA being strengthened, so to speak, but, uh, yeah, why it happened at that point of time is difficult to say, you know, but that it is having an impact today or in the last couple of years is, is a different, uh, story altogether.
Abhinandan: Right. Um, [00:24:00] I'll come to our two in house ghar ki murgis later because our guests have to leave by 12. 15 or 12. 20. So we'll let them, you know, speak a little bit. But before that, you want to come in because I have two specific questions for our guests.
Manisha: On Man Mohan Sing. Actually, I was just thinking today that I've been a journalist for 15 years and the first four years, my formative years were in UPA two I.
I was in business standard TA nine and was the editor and I was handling the edit topic pages and 2009 May UPA two comes to par. I became a journalist in 2009 March, and I remember. And it was interesting to look back now, the first anniversary of UPA to one year completes. We had such a strong editorial against Manmohan Singh.
I was in charge of the letters page. So we would get letters for to the editors and I would give headlines like Manmohan, Manmohan, 2012. I think this was mid I think half year to UPA 2 had completed and there was a very strong editorial in the business standard calling him to resign, leader. It was like the first, [00:25:00] you know, uh, that you failed, the growth is, uh, UDP numbers are down, fiscal deficit is, and very harsh kind of words were used and, I guess that's what journalists did at that point and should do.
But it's interesting to see how that's completely turned. So when we look at Manmohan Singh as the silent PM and all that, the media was so strongly critical of him and he was judged on everything, especially because even he was an economist and of course business standards and business daily would have very critical views on where he's going wrong, what he's not been able to achieve.
And I remember 2013 then there was this sense in UP too that he needs to start speaking more. right before the elections. And he, he holds a, you know, one on one with editors and that again became news that he's going to be, and he invited TN9 and he was the first person he met among a group of other editors like Raj Chengappa.
So to grow up as a journalist, to have formative years in UPA too, where you, you know, learned the [00:26:00] strength of a media that questioned without having been cut off. No, I don't know of an instance back then, at least that this journalist has now been banned or the fact that he met TN9 and would been leading, you know, a business daily, you've been very critical of him.
So it's very interesting learning and then how that completely changed post 2014. Like now I don't see the letters to the editor section, but I don't know how many newspapers even carry critical letters that come off the current government to the newspaper. So And that's what a lot of people are actually remembering today.
The fact that he held press conferences, his last press conference in 2014, where he took questions. Comedians. I saw Veer Das say that prime time he used to have a show on a business channel where they would rip into Manmohan every night and why this is the measure of a great person that he took jokes
Abhinandan: without the worry
Manisha: of UAPA, you know, no one would have thought back then, even while the UAPA was being re imagined that this would be used for thought crimes [00:27:00]
Abhinandan: or for
Manisha: activists who were just protesting.
So I think that to me as a journalist is his legacy, the, the, you know, the criticisms he took and the free reign media had in his time.
Abhinandan: Yeah, relatively. Yes, relatively. Relatively, yes. Because while he was fair game, Sonia wasn't. Yeah. Let's be clear. You could not attack the Gandhi's.
Raman: I can recall two things.
One is in the late 80s when I was looking, I was studying, I was doing MPhil from GNU and I was looking for a job. And at that time we could see only the government jobs around us. There was no private job, nothing. So, I really, I mean, when I think of Manmohan Singh, 1991, when he opened up the economy, I remember a few friends of mine who wanted to start a pottery farm.
Even for that, you need, needed lots of clearances. There were 27 clearances at that time. Okay, so now, So I can [00:28:00] distinctly, uh, you know, recall, uh, that different, just no jobs, virtually no jobs. And in 1991, when he opened up the economy and you had this private sector coming in, I think this was a very, very big, uh, uh, achievement, uh, on his part.
And when I read, you know, his biography by, uh, uh, his daughter, Daman Singh, and which is going to be one of my recommendation today. Uh, She has really put out, you know, the making of Manmohan Singh as an economist, very clearly, you know, when he was studying at the Cambridge and Oxford and when he was teaching at Punjab University.
So, so, uh, so I think this, um, Really stands out for me. And the second is, uh, since you are talking, uh, about , I remember when I was in the Express 2007, I did the front page cover story. Uh, at that time I think, uh, [00:29:00] BPE was there. Uh, see that story? Was that how the, uh,
Abhinandan: the pre 2004,
Raman: how, how the killings have increased in nal.
Uh, areas, uh, then the JNK, there used to be a comparison between the two. So for the first time, the Naxal area, that outnumbered. So Salwa Judum, it had all, uh, you know, it had started almost around that time. And then, uh, Manmohan Singh comes in. So, so, so, so to counter, uh, you know, this killings by the Naxalites.
Abhinandan: So, uh, you know, uh, Nirjat, one question, I mean, of course, you know, you please tell us about any other instances that you think would be valuable because we have limited time and can't talk about everything. I've always been curious and I was wondering if you could shed some light on it, on the fact that Dr.
Singh did not dig his heels in on most things. Even I remember when, uh, uh, who was his water minister who had a warrant against him? And there was, you know, his [00:30:00] cabinet meeting. He didn't attend. Madhukoda was it? Um, he never dug his heels or anything. Ordinance
Manisha: tearing. Other
Abhinandan: than when the nuclear deal happened.
Now, according to the data that I have open in front of me, the world nuclear association, India's energy needs. 1. 7 percent were met by nuclear energy in 2021, according to another data point that I have open in front of me, which is citing the government data. It's just under 3 percent now, which is also, you know, maybe 2 point something.
Now, even at that time, the most optimistic estimates were that 6 percent of India's nuclear energy needs will be met by nuclear energy. Yet he staked his government, on that deal. Now, of course, the power minister has put out a press release, Dr. Jitendra Singh, that by 2070, we will be net zero and we will have, you know, 15, 300 megawatt [00:31:00] capacity is underway, et cetera, et cetera.
Now, I'm not sure Dr. Singh had thought a hundred years ahead, but at that time, a lot of the conversation was because a lot of Dr. Singh's policy interventions were to do with the American lobby or the Washington consensus. And they had convinced him for whatever lobbying reasons that this is good for India because it would open out a lot of business for American companies.
But as far as India's nuclear energy requirement is concerned, I mean, okay, sex percent is not to be scoffed at, but it's not worth staking your government on.
Neerja: And it's expensive.
Abhinandan: Yeah. And so I'm wondering why that. And, you know, why would he stake his government, you know, anger Karath to an extent where it became, the relationship became so, you know, acrimonious?
Yes. Can you, any insight into that?
Neerja: One can only guess.
Abhinandan: Um.
Neerja: Uh, that, uh, of course, clean energy, of course, ending nuclear apartheid, uh, all those, after the sanctions of 1998. And earlier, of course, [00:32:00] 1974, when Indira Gandhi went in for a test, and then later Vajpayee. Uh, all those, yes. And of course, as I said, a strategic relationship with the United States of America, which he gave importance to.
Abhinandan: So it was beyond just nuclear energy?
Neerja: Oh, much beyond. Because the Americans like, uh, you know, uh, Condoleezza Rice, the U. S. Secretary of State, at the last dinner that they had, uh, small group dinner, uh, with Manmohan Singh, just before the deal was signed, she said, Dr. Singh, we've done heavy lifting for you.
So I hope you will, your India will also buy the nuclear reactors. So Bush cut her short. He said, no, that's not the purpose of it. It's the relationship between the two countries. So, uh, and of course, very interestingly, he once said to, um, Manmohan Singh, I like you because you have a kind heart. calming influence on me, you know, this, uh, this, um, uh, thing about silence and, you know, humility and the kind of [00:33:00] persona he had.
But I think, um, uh, somewhere I feel it went beyond that. Once he was on that path that this must be done and remember Sonia Gandhi was opposing it to begin with. Yeah. Then she came, uh, to support it. And, uh, the left, of course, was opposing it and they reduced support, but he managed to get alternative support of Mulaim Singh Yadav's party, which had also opposed the deal to begin with.
And he roped in somebody like, um, Amar
Abhinandan: Singh. Who was,
Neerja: uh, He was the opposite of Manmohan Singh. And this was all Manmohan Singh's doing. All Manmohan Singh, not the party. Party came in later. Such shrewd political
Abhinandan: work. But he used,
Neerja: it was the idea of MK Narayanan. Somebody told me this, that he, somebody sold, sold this idea to him and he fell for it hook, line and sinker.
So Amar Singh played that role. He was a class by himself in [00:34:00] fixing things. So, but I think there was an element of saying, I am going to be my own man. You know, this pushing around of Manmohan Singh all through his Premiership by the party. So, on this one thing I believe in, I'm going to stick to it and I'm going to deliver.
So, somewhere he was asserting his, uh, what do you call his own, uh, self.
Abhinandan: His authority as Prime Minister. His authority
Neerja: as Prime Minister. That's correct. Because as a person he wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay,
Abhinandan: uh, Justice Lokur, um, you know, we have about 20, 25 minutes left. I know this is too wide a question, so I will leave it to you to narrow it down to some important judgments and what you thought of the Supreme Court's intervention in policy.
Now, I know it is not the job of the Supreme Court to run the country. Uh, and often the Supreme Court has observed in many cases that we have read about and are, you know, able journalists have covered that. [00:35:00] Supreme Court is not the executive. It does not create policy. We only decide on what is legal, what is not legal.
But everything goes there. It's basically come to a point, Supreme Court will decide on this. Is this election fair or not? Now the Ram Janbhumi issue, uh, you know, the, the electoral bonds, uh, which, Fine, you know, Justice Ansoor said it has to be public, but the next step you cannot spend that money or give it back or it didn't quite happen.
Um, what in your view has the role of the Supreme Court expanded into, how it affects democracy and where you think in specific judgments in case you want to, you know, speak about it, did it fall short or did it outshine itself?
Madan: Yeah, you know, um, uh, I, I, I don't think the Supreme Court has expanded its rule.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, in the sense that, uh, it's going into areas where it [00:36:00] shouldn't be going. It has been going into areas, uh, you know, which we are dealing with today in a similar fashion in the past also, you know, uh, that's what, uh, public interest litigation is all about. So when you talk about, uh, protection of the environment in the 1980s, That's policy, okay.
But if it is going to have an impact on the constitutional rights of people, then the Supreme Court will intervene, okay. So even now, when, uh, you know, you have some issues coming up, um, which pertain to the constitution, for example, you had mentioned about, uh, electoral bonds. Free and fair elections. All right.
So that's a part of the job of the Supreme Court to see that elections are free and fair. So when you come to the issue of electoral bonds, are they constitutional or not [00:37:00] constitutional, the Supreme Court said, well, it has an impact on the fairness of elections.
Abhinandan: But too little too late? It took a while for them.
Madan: I think, yeah, too little too late, certainly. The Supreme Court should have decided it much earlier. Much earlier. Because of the impact that the electoral bonds have had. In terms of money going to, uh, the quantum of money going to, uh, political parties. That's number one. The second aspect, uh, you know, which I'm a little unhappy about is that, uh, after the electoral bonds were declared unconstitutional, the Supreme Court did not take that one step further, you know, to ask, from where did you guys get this money?
You know, so you've had persons giving 300 crores, 400 crores, where did you get this money from? You know, what about, uh, the income tax department, did they look into it? At that point of time? No, so they're busy
Abhinandan: investigating us. [00:38:00] More important things, like news not in Abhinandan's sake, they're being investigated.
Madan: Okay. Then you had, uh, uh, organizations, companies, you know, which were running at a loss. Right.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Madan: They donated money. Yeah. You know, you're running at loss. How do you get the money to donate? You had shell companies. Yeah. Right. They donated money. So these are things which, uh, I think the Supreme Court should have looked at.
Raman: And there was seemingly could pro quo also, because they were given some, uh, awarded some contracts. That,
Madan: that, that is an aspect that could have been investigated, you know, I mean, you know, It's, it's possible. I mean, there are stories about some companies who had donated money and they've got contracts.
Yes. May or may not be correct. I don't know. But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's something which is worth looking into. Yeah. But
Abhinandan: other than that specific, you know, uh, I attended Justice Ahmadi's biographies book launch and, uh, Justice Nariman's [00:39:00] speech there, which he just lambasted the court on there. Ram Janbhumi judgment is the recommendation.
We've done it. It's online. People can watch it. Um, and, you know, since you have served in the court in the nineties as well, is it that because of media becoming ubiquitous, the attention on the courts is a lot more and therefore the criticism is also, you know, at a different level. And so is sometimes the, wow, wow, they are such wonderful people.
And the whole activist judge kind of thing, or has it genuinely increased from the time when. You know, you remember pre social media days.
Madan: Yeah. Well, I think the focus on, uh, the courts has increased definitely. I mean, there's no doubt about it. Um, and I think in the last maybe 10, 15 years, uh, you know, that, uh, focus particularly on the Supreme court has increased for a variety of reasons.
One is the nature of issues that have been coming up, uh, violation of rights, [00:40:00] then journalists getting into trouble. So once journalists get into trouble, they're not going to keep quiet, you know, they're going to write about it. It's going to come into the, uh, you know, print media or audiovisual, uh, media.
That generates focus, okay? Because if they're writing about it in, uh, the newspapers, people are going to read it. And then you have some other incident happening, which may not be related to a journalist, but then, you know, they'll say, well, somebody has written about that too. So that, you know, incremental focus on the Supreme Court has definitely increased.
And today you have one particular newspaper which says every day, what is going to happen in the courts today. Right? This wasn't happening 15 years ago.
Manisha: Right.
Madan: Do you see
Manisha: that as a good thing though? The increased scrutiny, focus. Yeah, why not?
Madan: Why not? Why not?
Abhinandan: But does it make the judges more performative also?
Is that a downside? [00:41:00]
Madan: No, you know, judges have to be aloof and they have to have that training, which they do, you know, that, okay, you can say whatever you like, but yeah, we've got to decide on the material that is before us. Okay. So you've had like in the United States Supreme Court, you have demonstrations outside the Supreme Court, you know, some for some against, but does that influence the judges?
Yes. Perhaps not, you know, because you, you have that training and I think it, it, it is at least to some extent, uh, the same with the Supreme Court. I mean, we don't have demonstrations, but, uh, yeah, people can talk about it, but they have to decide on the material. And now
Abhinandan: they don't have demonstrations at all.
Not just outside the Supreme Court. Like I said, back in the day, I only was maybe for seven, eight hours in the lockup. Had I get out, PM Modi's house had been in the locker for eight years for [00:42:00] UAP.
Madan: There was one demonstration before the Supreme Court, a couple of years Kudankalan
Manisha: protests, there are a hundred people, I think, were charged with UAP.
This was during the Mohan's
Abhinandan: time. So, Neerja, the look at 24, From the media point of view or the overlap of media and this courts, uh, better than other years. You think some section of the media finding their voice, uh, you know, today's newspaper, the express in fact says that they were, um, just 30 percent is the amount of vote share that is cast in two particular seats or states of, of, uh, both Congress and BJP having winning.
So, you know, when channels show maps. This whole side is separate. It appears that 90 BJP supporters, whereas actually in sheer numbers and you really chop up the data, it may be they won by just 30 percent of vote share or 28 percent of vote share, the rest was a scattered vote. Uh, is [00:43:00] the media, uh, doing a better job in 24?
Are you happier than in the past, um, have the assaults come down or how would you look back?
Neerja: Uh, yes, I think the media has, uh, done better. Okay. And that may be also because there were so many elections.
Abhinandan: And also Charso power didn't happen. And Charso
Neerja: power didn't happen. And there was, uh, there was, uh, what I call people's Ankush on, uh, you know, they wanted Narendra Modi to come back to power, but reigned in a little bit.
They felt Charsopar is like, you know, too much. What's going on? What does it entail? Uh, and so on. It's not only the Dalits who felt that their reservations may go. Right. It's also even, uh, middle class Indians, even the finance world people were saying, what does it mean? Does it mean we are headed towards one party rule?
Abhinandan: So
Neerja: that, those worrying things and I think people rein them in. Uh, so that is again the beauty of India's democracy. Uh, uh, too early to say on [00:44:00] other fronts because the, the, the BJP, uh, now as I say, they're reaching out to the world. on the issue of Manmohan Singh. It's a very interesting response. It's also very interesting that within the party, between the RSS and the BJP, within the RSS, there is a lot of manthan going on.
Yeah. A lot of churning going on. And, uh, the challenge to, uh, Ra Modi, as was said to me, in as early as 2015 will come not from the left or the opposition, it'll come from the extreme right. And that is what we are seeing, you know, ensemble on Sharif, uh, these, uh, you know, freelance groups at the moment, they cannot be freelance.
They have to be backed by some political force to be able to survive and grow. So, you know, Mohan. saying, you know, call a halt to looking for, uh, temples beneath, uh, Masjid. That's going to [00:45:00] do no good to the country. Now, Mohan Bhagwat today has become center, center right. Narendra Modi today is center right, but the court's ruling concurs with this, you know, put on hold till we say something on it.
So, uh, the, the right, it's, everything is shifting more rightwards. Uh, but, um, After Haryana and Maharashtra, they've got, uh, they've, and they cost corrected very quickly, unlike the Congress, which gets demoralized very quickly. Uh, so they've won very handsomely. Maharashtra has been a turning point, but let's see, let's see.
In Indian politics, it's like a yo yo.
Abhinandan: Hmm. Lok
Neerja: Sabha was too fatty for them, short of a majority, a challenge from Yogi Adityanath internally. Hmm. RSS saying, you know, we're not going all out, then RSS has gone all out in Haryana and Maharashtra. Now, all these voices being raised. [00:46:00] So Indian politics is always interesting.
So let's see. I would say too early to say where, you know, what 2025 will bring. One can look at the trends. But, uh, uh, you know, anything is possible.
Manisha: What are the big low points in Indian politics this year for you? What have been like the lowest moments of politics? In 24? Yeah.
Neerja: Huh, lowest moments in politics?
Uh, I can't think like that. Uh, what have been the lowest moments in politics?
Abhinandan: But that happened this year only, right? When Bidhuri had, uh, you know, used some That was last year. Language. That was last That's 23.
Neerja: The language, uh, language even now I would say, uh, Kamadhi Party versus BJP. Uh, that's going to be a very bitter, vicious battle and, uh, BJP has a good chance this time.
Aam Aadmi Party is fighting for retaining the, [00:47:00] uh, their hold in Delhi, um, evenly placed probably. Aam Aadmi Party has advantage with the poorer section, Jhuggis, but then to call Arvind Kejriwal an anti national. But that's the Congress.
Abhinandan: That's
Neerja: the Congress. You know, the use of this, this over the top loose use of words, I mean, you can call them whatever, an opponent, you can call them a fraud, which they've done, anti national challenging somebody's patriotism.
You don't do that in a democratic polity, unless you have hard evidence to show that that is the case. You don't do it loosely. So that is what even in Parliament, you know, about Rahul Gandhi, okay, you know, he may, he may not have come up to scratch. Well, that's fine, you know, take him on. But not, uh, you know, seditious things like that.
That has to go out of our political For me,
Manisha: I think the Lok Sabha [00:48:00] speeches of the Prime Minister, the bhais chura lega, mangal sutra chheen lege, I think that was the lowest point for me. And I think we tend to as journalists think that everyone's very political, but most people aren't, I feel. I think people think of politics very strongly during elections.
And so even among Muslims, there are a large number of people who are not so. You know, involved in the day to day politics, political language of, but I saw those speeches had a very demoralizing impact even on Muslims who may not be very involved in politics because it was very personal to say that it's very personal to say that you are going to go and snatch your neighbor's Mangalsutra.
It's a very insulting thing for any community to be. And of course, there's a lot of people who are like, but this is what BJP is, why are you surprised? I think it was still very surprising, even given whatever they may stand for, Hindutva or whatever. The Prime Minister saying things like, they'll slash your Mangal Sutra or they'll steal your cows.
I think that was [00:49:00] No,
Raman: I'll just add one thing, uh, Mohan Bhagwat just gave, uh, you know, a speech in Marathi after the Maharashtra victory, where he said, uh, Mandir ke shikhar pe agar koi kaua bat jata hai toh wo chill hai. So I think he didn't give any reference, I mean, didn't name anyone, but one can understand as Neija is saying that the challenge is coming, going to come from the within.
Abhinandan: And in fact, on that, the organizer and the All India Seer Committee, what is it called? It's called the Akhil Bhartiya Sant Samiti, where Sruti said that religious matters should be decided by Dharmacharyas and not RSS. He was basically, when he said you can't start digging everything and saying there was a temple there.
And the organizer carried an editorial kind of, you know, Contrary to Bhagwat's statement, and then today they have again reversed their position. So I think he's just right. There's the friction between the RSS and [00:50:00] the hard religious right, uh, is going to be the challenge. Now
Neerja: the question is, does this extreme right, uh, have a political backing?
What are they without,
Manisha: say, the
Neerja: Modi support? Yeah. So, um, given the fact that Mohan Bhagwat has taken a position on the Mandir thing, that don't go ahead with it, given the fact that the court has taken a position with it, given the fact even that I think that, uh, it, all this could not have happened somewhere.
The, the, the top brass of the BJP also. are of this view. Uh, then where, without political backing, how can freelancers survive?
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Neerja: And where is that backing coming from? Is it coming from Yogi Adityanath? That's a question mark.
Abhinandan: My litmus test on that is to see what some channels, I will not name them, but there are two specific channels that I watch.
Whose byte are they airing? If they are airing Swami, whatever, Nand, whatever his [00:51:00] name is, his byte. Then I know this order has come from the top office in the country because they will not dare air that bite. Had it not been greenlit by certain powerful people in a certain powerful office. So if you want to check the litmus test, check that channel.
If that channel is running that bite, then the blessings are from the top. That that is my litmus test. Otherwise those guys wouldn't even dare run a ticker. I mean, Those guys are called and told to change the ticker and they comply. So they would not dare run something that doesn't have the blessings.
But Justice Lokur, we have another 10 minutes, you know, as far as the, um, you know, some of the statements that come out of judges, uh, which are very disturbing, the one of Allahabad High Court, We discussed that last time of what he said about Muslims. Of course, you know, politicians, judges, journalists are a reflection of society.
It is a cross section that exists. And in our last hafta, it was like he's still hearing cases, but then [00:52:00] it was pointed out that technically, they, you know, they can't stop him from hearing cases. Either you impeach the guy. He will continue to hear cases. Uh, is there any checks and balance on stuff that 'cause a judge saying something's different from people like us who don't matter?
Uh, 'cause I mean, think about it. A judge can decide whether you live or die, and that is huge. No one else can decide that in our country. Are there any checks and balances? Can there be, are we having unrealistic expectations from our judiciary?
Madan: Yeah. You know, there are, uh, checks and balances. In the sense that, uh, now I'm talking about the higher judiciary, that is the High Courts and the Supreme Court.
You have the Judge's Inquiry Act, for example. So if you cross the red line, you know, an inquiry can be held and impeachment proceedings can start. All right? There's already a motion for impeachment pending [00:53:00] in the Rajya Sabha. Now, uh, so that kind of a check is there. Now, uh, you see, is there, is there some other mechanism?
You know, apart from impeachment. The Supreme Court, uh, the senior most judges, the Chief Justice and the senior most judges called this judge for a meeting. Now what happened in that meeting, nobody knows. Yeah. Apart from these six people, nobody knows what happened. So perhaps the Supreme Court is also looking at, this is the impression I'm getting, that is also looking at ways and means to check judges, uh, you know, short of impeachment because impeachment is, is a long drawn out process, number one.
And it's like, you know, a death sentence so far as a judge is concerned. So something [00:54:00] short of that. So you've had not only this judge, but you had other judges also, you know, said things which are very strange. Okay. In their judgments and even otherwise. So I think that that's the feeling I'm getting, that the Supreme Court is looking at some kind of a mechanism where, you know, they can be an additional check on the conduct of a judge short of impeachment, but yet, you know, uh, strong enough to, uh, you know, censor the judge or, uh, take action against the judge.
You had mentioned about, uh, you know, um, work being withdrawn from a judge. Mm-hmm . That's possible. Oh, it is? Yeah. And it has happened in the past. Uh, you know, um, Justice, uh, Ramaswamy, when there were proceedings against him in the Supreme Court, the then, uh, Chief Justice of India, Justice Sabyasachi Muppiji, I think it was Sabyasachi, Justice Sabyasachi Muppiji, [00:55:00] he withdrew work, you know, and for about There is
Abhinandan: that
Madan: mechanism.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that can be done, but, uh, you know, so there are ways and means of going about it.
Abhinandan: Right. Uh, and before we wind up and say thank you to the guests, I want both of you to weigh in on one thing. And this is in the context of Joe Biden just commuting the death sentences of 37, uh, inmates on death row.
And there was a lot of discussion on that. In response to that, Trump has said that we should increase the death penalty and the federal death penalty and rapists, murderers and monsters, as he said. Who's a monster? He seems the bloodlust and Trump is huge, which I find disturbing. Now, I don't know whether as a retired judge, you can weigh in.
Do you have a position on the death penalty?
Madan: Yeah, it's like this, uh, you know, uh, the, uh, president Biden has not only commuted the death sentence of these 37 people, but he has, uh, given clemency to I think about 1500 other persons, right? So they [00:56:00] have a system, you know, certain guidelines or so something, SOP or whatever, that in these kind of cases, you know, clemency can be granted, right?
Now, uh, we don't have that kind of a stuff. Right. The president though can, right? The president can. I mean, the president can, but there are no guidelines. Sure. You know, that in these kind of cases, we will not, uh, you know, we will commute the death sentence. We don't have that. So we've had instances where people have been on death row for many years.
Abhinandan: But in general, do you have a position on where is
Madan: Yeah, I think, I think, uh, it's time we, you know, took it out of the statute. And, you know, there are so many cases where, uh, and, uh, by the way, this, uh, Project 39A, uh, by the, uh, National Law University in Delhi, they've come out with, you know, a large number of instances where death penalty should not have been awarded.
Abhinandan: And it was.
Madan: And it was. And, uh, persons have been acquitted. [00:57:00] Persons who have been awarded the death penalty by the trial court, confirmed by the High Court, have been acquitted by the Supreme Court. Right? Um, I don't know of, uh, persons who are innocent but have actually been executed. But, uh, there is a movie I saw recently, uh, about the United States, Trial by Fire.
The person was found to be innocent or was believed to be innocent later on, but he was executed. You know, so, looking at that, I mean, if you, if you, sentence a person to death and he's executed, that's the end. It's not reversible. So in that sense, I think it should be taken out.
Abhinandan: Um, how about you, Neerja, any closing thoughts on this issue or any others as we close 2024?
Neerja: And on this issue?
Abhinandan: Yes. And any other?
Neerja: You know, I'm always being pulled in two directions, if I'm honest on this. There are, uh, there are, it should be in the rarest of rare cases. Right. And there are [00:58:00] these very, there are horrendous cases of, say, women, uh, or young children being raped. Uh, should you give death sentence as a deterrence, as a message to society, you know, this is not going to be accepted?
Uh, or as you know, it's a more humane side of any society, you know, that you don't go for a punishment like that. So I, I must be honest, I've, uh, you know, to take a very clear cut position on it, I have found it difficult in the past.
Abhinandan: I was in fact, exactly in that boat. The thing that actually swung me into, uh, being anti death penalty was this.
There was one particular serial killer in Germany, who had done his first murder when he was seven. He batted a six month old baby to death. Then he was sent into correction, then at 13, then at 18. He finally died of natural causes at 74. And while he was in jail, he attempted suicide three times. And when he went to [00:59:00] trial, he told the judge.
You let me out, I'll kill again. I cannot help but kill. Put me to death. And the judge said, we don't do that. That is not, it was such a civilized, you know, response. And I was like, if they can let such a man live. Who wants to die. Of course, one can go into his euthanasia, okay, you know, but I thought that was, that really shows how civilized a society is.
It's a system
Neerja: of reformation, you know, that is completely. It's missing. It's not there. It's completely missing.
Madan: But you know, um, the courts have been giving, uh, sentences 25 years, you know, without remission. You know, so, I mean, if a guy is going to be in jail for 25 years and the kind of jails that we have, it's as good, if not worse than,
Abhinandan: it's worse,
Manisha: certainly worse than death penalty.
Abhinandan: But I must thank Justice Lokur and Neerja, congratulations again to you, to your appointment, a proud moment [01:00:00] for India. We have such accomplished people who are at the top of justice in the world. And of course, journalists like Neerja who are top of journalism in the world. Uh, and of course, we are very privileged to have both of you on the last podcast of 2024 at News Laundry.
Uh, before I say goodbye, could you just enrich our audience with a recommendation? It could be music, it could be a book, it could be an article, it could be a film, anything, any recommendation that you think is worth our audience's time. Justice Lokri, you want to go first?
Madan: Um, yeah, well, I had mentioned about this movie, Trial by Fire, uh, with regard to death penalty.
I think it's a movie worth seeing. There are a couple of other movies that I've, uh, seen. Which you like. Yeah. Such as The Elephant Whisperer. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Very good. I I want to see, uh, all we imagine as light. As light. Light. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. So we have, uh, very good movies. One movie that I saw a couple of years ago Mm.
Which I think is very, very good. Uh, my teacher, [01:01:00] the Octopus, or My Octopus, yeah.
Abhinandan: My Opus teacher. Yeah. Right by Fantastic
Madan: movie. Yeah. We need to think about the environment. Because we are heading in the wrong direction so far as the environment is
Abhinandan: concerned. We are closing 2024 into this only the second time News Laundry is doing a campaign on our fight to breathe, uh, and do, you know, participate in this campaign.
I will give you details of how you can. Um, we are going to be covering this through the year and we are actually inviting others to join in media organizations. You know, any, anyone who thinks they can be part of the solution, it's very important. Like I said, Neerja, any recommendations? What a good movie that you watched in 2024?
Did
Neerja: you watch 3,
Abhinandan: 2?
Neerja: The book I've been reading is recently of great interest to me. It's Ashok Gopal's book on Ambedkar. It's, it's so rich in material and I think it took all of 15 years to do research on it. Wow. And, uh, it's [01:02:00] award-winning and the font is very, very small. So I find it difficult. But, uh,
Raman: so did you have Kindle, uh, addition?
Neerja: I didn't have, have the book. Maybe we can do it. Let's talk about with him. Yeah. 15 years of research and, uh, uh, I. You know, he's grown in iconic stature after his death and is increasing as the years go by. I sometimes wonder, I was thinking today, will this happen to Dr. Manmohan Singh also? Will he become much more of an icon after his death?
But that apart, but Ambedkar is going to be the trend of the future in the coming year and years, because you have today, young, educated, aspirational Dalits out there.
Abhinandan: And
Neerja: every party is catering to them. So anyway, this is, I would recommend it to people who are interested in the subject.
Abhinandan: We will continue our discussion, but thank you so much.
I know both of you have to go. So we have a little something for [01:03:00] you. You've already got our books. So we have something else for you, but you haven't got our books. I
Manisha: should give you
Abhinandan: those. Before we continue the discussion with the ghar ki murgis. I have a couple of announcements. One is I reiterate, please do contribute to the Senel Sena project.
And the second is this, what I was mentioning Justice Lokur, fight to breathe. Uh, those of you who are subscribers have already got my email. It is a campaign that impacts much of North India. And ever since you started the campaign, a lot of people are tweeting from Bombay because Bombay also AQI never used to be 300.
Manisha: And it's been bad for them since September.
Abhinandan: So Uh, for most of the year in much of North India, it is severely unhealthy by the UN standard. It's unbreathable air. The average resident is likely to lose 5. 4 years of life expectancy. And these, this is data from UN approved, you know, uh, public health data, a public health pandemic that [01:04:00] impacts tens of millions across the country is being ignored year after year.
It becomes the headline just for about two weeks during the winter. We are launching a year long campaign. We will have shows, articles, calls to action, innovative techniques for advocacy, storytelling, and we have to force those in power to fix this. And we cannot do this alone. We have to do this together.
So we urge all citizens, people who are in activism, people who are in power, bureaucrats, politicians, this impacts your children. I don't have children, but if I had our children or my ability to even have children, because it's really bad for reproductive system as well.
Manisha: In fact, Pratyush has done an excellent story.
It's out today on the ways to, uh, energy plant, which is spewing toxins. We have on record radiologists telling us about abortions, not sorry, not about abortions, about miscarriages, about children suffering real [01:05:00] disorders. women having troubles conceiving and very articulate young people, um, and even, you know, residents around that area who are so, I mean, they feel so hopeless about the fact that there's this.
toxic, you know, plant next to them and they can do nothing and they know.
Raman: Spewing death.
Manisha: And really articulate voices.
Raman: Legal case. They lost once, but they are still, they have gone to the Supreme Court now. And real
Manisha: impact. I mean, there's a real health. It's, it's like Chernobyl, man. Honestly, like. You can,
Abhinandan: you know, scan this QR code.
You'll read a lot of stories. You can see what all you can do. And we'd like everyone to get involved. Cause. This is nonpartisan. It is, it is not that if you are a supporter of X party, you will not be impacted by Y party. Let's hold everyone accountable. Yeah. Let us not step back. This affects your life and no political party is worth giving your life for.
Okay. So step up, scan this QR code. [01:06:00] Let's make this happen. You know, pressure. If all media organizations together put this pressure, the government will have to act. Yeah. You know, we cannot just hand it over to them. You decide whether we live or die over the week. I mean, I went for one of my relatives, you know, under 14 football matches, they were playing in bloody 380 AQI, Khelu India, Khelu India.
What Khelu India man? It's, uh, so, so please, uh, you know, participate in this and pay to keep news free, uh, because that's the only way. And give us
Manisha: ideas from across the country, wherever you are, need not be in Delhi, whatever you want us to cover in terms of air quality in your area, your city, your state, please tell us.
Abhinandan: Right. Uh, on that note, before we move on to the emails, you know, on the two, three issues we discussed, um, you know, Shyam Benegal's passing, I discussed in Awful and Awesome. He was such an important filmmaker for me because other than Yash Chopra, I've seen most, if not all of his films, maybe [01:07:00] two, three, I've not seen.
Um, uh, and, you know, Zakir Hussain also, you know, died this week. There were, there were a lot of really tragic, uh, instances. But, you know, coming to the highs and lows and Dr. Manmohan Singh's passing, you know, Raman Sir first you, and then we'll go to Manisha. Any thoughts on all that happened in the last week and the last year, in fact?
Raman: I think the high for me was, uh, BJP forming a coalition government. I think that was the high because I am a journalist and I have been practicing journalism for the past 36 years. The kind of time that we saw, you know, in 10 years. And I thought in case he's going to come with 400 seats or, I mean, even a special majority, I Uh, he's he's going to kill the media,
Abhinandan: he's going
Raman: to kill the media.
I mean, I was, I was ready to see that all of, I mean, we were, we have already been attacked [01:08:00] once. And I thought, I mean, after the elections, so, so, so, so he has slowed down,
Abhinandan: right?
Raman: Now the coalition has come, the focus has gone on something else. It's not that, I mean, still he is aggressive in certain fields, but he's very, very, uh, he's treading very carefully.
So, so I think, uh, this is the highest point, uh, for me so far, I mean, as a media person. Um, so, uh, because we were really suffering from this, we were really fearing it. He had struck that fear all over, uh, the country, the other, uh, low point side you. Cannot recall, I mean, accepting the fact that we had discussed the, the language, the, of the politicians, the deterioration over there.
Uh, it's best, uh, especially, you know, it, uh, stands out this year because there were too many elections. There were five, six elections. So, so, so
Abhinandan: five
Raman: elections [01:09:00] and, uh, the kind of language that you hear and the intolerance, political intolerance, which, uh, uh, Manmohan Singh had spoken to Neerja, uh, you know, uh, about it.
So, so I think these things, uh, are the lowest points.
Abhinandan: Right. So, Manisha, what are your views? Lowest,
Manisha: uh, lowest points. So, of course, one was Prime Minister Modi's, uh, speeches in the run up to Lok Sabha targeting very specifically Muslims. I think Anil Masih, Needs a special mention this year being caught in the camera tampering with elections low point because it was such a it was such a low stakes election the fact that this happened for a mayoral election in Chandigarh Union Territory and the fact that the media supported him we had anchors like Sushant in he he's not he's not tampering he's simply scribbling he's scribbling in all of them so it can't be tampering No one took that up in the way that they should have.
It took the Supreme Court to say that this was broad daylight murder of democracy and we were not [01:10:00] tolerated. But he's back also. But the dhadale se being caught on the camera and him looking at the camera and then going about his tampering and the fact that the media didn't come out against it in the way that they should have, which means.
Had Charsopar not happened, they would have, you know, this year we saw, uh, when the students drowned in Delhi in an IAS coaching center in old Rajendra Nagar, you had, this was right after the elections and you had prominent anchors, including Sudhir Chaudhary, go out questioned the government. This is the first sort of very direct questioning we saw right after the elections because Charsopar I think was a signal to media also.
And I think that was the high point for me that people, despite all the propaganda, the intense media machinery that BJP had its disposal and the money
Abhinandan: and still people said, and
Manisha: People clearly expressed, I think, in this mandate also disdain for the media that was just not talking about their issues.[01:11:00]
And we would routinely meet BJP supporters, ordinary housewives who voted for the BJP who didn't, who weren't very critical of Modi, but they were very pissed with the media that they were, you know, tuning into every night that look, everything is not that great. Prices have gone up for us. It's been difficult for us to manage a household.
Stop telling us sab chunga si. So the, You know, Indian public's hunger for news that matter to them and then moving towards YouTube, the kind of role that YouTube influencers played, the kind of role that digital independent news organizations played in catering to the news needs of people. I think that was also a high point.
The clear signal that look, Whoever we may support from the media, we expect at least our issues to be raised. That was a heartening sign for 2024, I think, on a positive note.
Abhinandan: Right. On that note, let's read a few mails. We will not read, we've got almost 23 or 24 mails, but we will wait when we have Anand and Jayshree here and our full team is here for the first.
Manisha: There's lots of praise for Anand, so I think he should be around to hear [01:12:00] that.
Abhinandan: Because he's always around
Manisha: to hear the
Abhinandan: criticism. So, but we will, in fact, there are 25 emails that we'll read three or four, but the rest will be read. Uh, you know the shorter ones you'll read, the rest you'll read when the entire team is here in the first hafta of 2025.
Manisha: So a lot of people were happy with your kung fu. fighting gig the last hafta.
Abhinandan: Before we start, you can mail us at podcasts at newslion. com. I repeat podcasts at newslion. com. We only entertain the emails of subscribers. Uh, if you're a non subscriber, you can leave your comments on Twitter and you can do all your hate Trolling there.
Uh, or you can, uh, click in the link in the show notes below, it'll open out a form and you can fill in your suggestions or criticism, what you'd like us to do, what you wouldn't like us to do, add ideas to make us better, uh, and, uh, do restrict your word count please to under 150.
Manisha: So, like I said, a lot of people were happy with your gig last week, Kung Fu Fighting.
So people have, you know, messaged [01:13:00] also under the show on YouTube. But Sonali Singha said that that made her day much better fare than the Christmas playlist on Happy Music. Like the other discussion too, even if. They didn't need sheet music.
Abhinandan: Sheet music, okay.
Manisha: Chetan says, Hi NL team, just a small quip.
Manisha ma'am, your last nuisance in the subscription appeal, you said, Sarkari ads milte nahi hain. It, you should have rather said, Sarkari ads lete nahi hain. That would be. It could have been a genuine error, but please reinforce on this because it's one of the reasons I subscribe to you guys. And I second the opinion on one of your subscribers that the 2014 elections were fought on the graft charges against Congress and not Hindutva.
I love the Kung Fu fighting from our CEO. Thank you.
Abhinandan: Thank you so much. Yes. for correcting me.
Manisha: Vishnu says, Hi team, in my opinion, direct cash is good for people, but instead of reducing rations, etc, the government should reduce subsidies because that money goes [01:14:00] directly to businesses. Regarding Bheem Rao, the BGP RSS have always been trying to push against BR and the constitution. So pushback from opposition is always good.
With BR and Nehru, what happened in the past should be known. But the present matters more. BJP RSS is against BR and constitution now. In my opinion, NL team needs someone who knows and cares enough about caste discrimination to talk about it in the detail when it comes up, like Sudipto Mondal in TNM.
One nation, one election will benefit BJP to reduce their spending. Modi can now campaign for himself and local elections at the same time. But I think Modi is no longer winning them state elections.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Manisha: I don't know how long they can use the same trick.
Abhinandan: Completely agree on the Sudipto piece. We need someone, you know, who can really shine a light.
Manisha: So, Udolak says, uh, thanks for responding to my letter. I apologize for not being clear in my writing. To remind you of the context, the topic was why is Indian, why in India, Muslims are poorer than Hindus. One of the main explanations is the flight of Muslim talent to Pakistan. And [01:15:00] GDP growth rates were very similar for both India and Pakistan.
until 1990s. After that, India broke away from the collectivist ideology of socialism, but Pakistan did not move away from Islamo fascism. Both ideologies suppress human freedom, prosperity. Some more very recent contrasting examples are Bangladesh, Islamist rise and Argentina, Malaysia's miracle.
Abhinandan: Right. And the two very short emails, short and sweet.
One is Rohit, 41 words. I really liked your Let's Talk About Punjab. I have a suggestion. Can you please make it a video documentary format? And you can use motion graphics where you don't have copyright for footage. I like Abhinandan's so much, Rohit. We will try, but even to make it really compelling, the motion graphics have to be of a certain quality.
Yeah, it's a lot of work. You have to put a certain resource behind it. We've done that
Manisha: earlier. Yeah, exactly. We've done
Abhinandan: stuff like that.
Manisha: Niranjan says, 2018 Hafta. Episode 220. Madhu reprimanded Manisha for nuisance, repeating the theme of TV anchors, asking the [01:16:00] PM where he gets his energy from. Abhinandan to Anand.
Why were you not a signatory in the letter demanding release of Julian Assange, signed by N. Ram Arundhati Roy? Some things never change. Would recommend other subscribers to listen to older Hafta. It's hilariously tragic how the level of public discourse and news has fallen. Also would recommend the Harvinder Kaur interview.
Why not put clips of such interviews outside the paywall? Might help with visibility on YD.
Abhinandan: We will do that. Harvinderkor is
Manisha: the litigant. Yeah, that's one of my favorite Ayyagris. She had gone to court against jokes on the Sikh community and there should be no Sardar jokes. And
Abhinandan: the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court at that time was a Sardar who was listening to her.
It was really a good one. Yeah.
Manisha: Ekansh says, Hi, I completely agree with the discussion on non working Parliament. Most of us don't even know how Parliament should work. I've been reading old Parliament transcripts. transcripts, the level of debate was another level. Even the right leaning politicians presented their argument with some kind of logic, even if we don't agree.
Can we have some program before [01:17:00] parliament sessions that presents agenda planned for next session so people realize how much of the agenda never goes anywhere? Another suggestion is that, is unrelated. Homeopathy is a grift that is being supported by Ayush ministry with our tax money. I believe it disproportionately affects the poor and lower middle class due to rising medical costs.
These so called grifter doctors take 1500 rupees and just give sugar pills. My request is for an investigative report on this.
Abhinandan: Well, something in that zone is already underway. So we read your mind, bro. But thank you Akansh for that email. Chirandeep
Manisha: Chatterjee says, please arrange a discussion and publish a report of all the state elections that happened after 2014 and how many BGP loses where BGP is already in power.
I think we would be very confirmative that BGP does not lose power once it's in control, administrative control. So suggestion to your team is you should spend more time and resources to investigate how BGP has fully captured our election mechanism.
Abhinandan: Like North Korea and Russia.
Raman: We have just picked one aspect which is deletion and addition.
Yeah, [01:18:00] but that's an investigation that's happening. Three stories are out. It took us about four months to do it.
Abhinandan: Yeah, these stories take long, man. Please convince your friends, family to subscribe. Yeah, we need more subscribers and more resources to, I mean, this has taken so long. Going door to door to check, it's not easy.
Manisha: And the last letter is from Robin. Dear NL team, this is regard to the paywall stories. I have a couple of suggestions that might be worth trying. A non subscriber can be nudged to a small payment to just read one article. View one report, interview, maybe after successful. Adil, we should have a paper.
Abhinandan: I don't know how feasible it is, but it's good.
one thing, he says I disagree with getting a voting between subscribers to make an article free.
Manisha: I think last time we had discussed that enough of you want something out of the paywall. Oh, like that.
Abhinandan: Okay. But, uh, yeah, but, uh, we have this thing that you can send one article for a subscriber. To a non subscriber and it'll open.
I think that system is already on. I'll just check.
Manisha: Yes, yes. You can gift a piece.
Abhinandan: You can [01:19:00] gift a piece and that person can open that one piece and consume it.
Manisha: So subscribers need to be more proactive. Gift more of our stuff.
Abhinandan: Be our brand ambassadors.
Manisha: In fact, you can give to two, like the same URL you can give to two people.
Abhinandan: Uh, so on that note, let's get the recommendations for the week. Uh, Ramansi, you want to go first?
Raman: As I said, uh, Manmohan Singh's biography written by his daughter, Daman Singh. Uh, making of Manmohan Singh, you know, is, is, uh, when he was a child and then when he was a student and, uh, when he was, uh, teacher.
Very, very nice, uh, biography. It doesn't deal much with the politics. Uh, in a way I found it very, very, because see you, when I read a political biography of, uh, LK Advani, I gained very little, uh, because we have been covering politics and I saw that the way it was written, [01:20:00] it was, it wasn't telling anything about Advani, you know, in his formative years.
So, so, so I think, so that is why I like Daman Singh's. It was very honest attempt to write about his, uh, her father. So this is one, which I read about two, three years ago, uh, uh, Manmohan Singh. And then the second is our, uh, series on, uh, you know, water suppression is out. Three stories are out and the fourth one is coming.
Going to come next, uh, week and we will continue to do stories on, uh, you know, water suppression. We have just dealt with one aspect, uh, at this point of time, because this is where we found that most of the things have happened. So, uh, so that story, the third thing I. Do not, uh, you know, see much of social media, but, uh, there is one, uh, parody Jawaharlal Nehru on [01:21:00] X Twitter has come up
Abhinandan: where Jawaharlal
Raman: Nehru and it's a, it's a, it's a blue tick, uh, Jawaharlal Nehru and, uh, it's hilarious.
Oh, it's a beautiful, uh, I mean, the sense of humor is just, just amazing. So I think if, uh, you want to see that Joel and Nehru parody, uh, blue tick on X, so that is it. Manisha.
Manisha: So one piece by Anand Vardhan from 2012, where he's put up a very passionate defense. of Manmohan Singh. Manmohan Singh was loud enough for those who cared to listen.
We've republished it so you can read it on our website. I do think that perceptions are more than hard data. Why we felt that he's a silent PM had more to do with how many addresses he was giving to the media or to the public, but it's still an interesting piece to read, especially to look back now, he was actually engaging quite a bit.
So because Anand has put out a list of his public engagements, how much he's spoken in parliament, where all he's giving his speeches, and he's blamed the media for not giving it adequate attention. So [01:22:00] that's an interesting piece. One of my favorite, uh, 2024 pieces on news laundry this year was a 40 minute short documentary.
Actually, you can't call 40 Minutes short anymore online, but a 40 minute documentary called Dilli Ke Nafrati Behsbaaz. It's in Hindi. It's about YouTubers who collect in Central Delhi, in CP, and this whole ecosystem of hateful bytes that's fueling YouTube. YouTubers and hits on YouTubes and a whole ecosystem which is very similar to what we see on television news.
It's an excellent documentary that we put out this year, so do watch it. And we have a piece for all our subscribers and non subscribers to go through at the end of the year on 10 amazing things that News Laundry achieved this year in terms of stories. I'm very proud of everything we've been able to do, deep dive investigations that were followed.
Up by mainstream media, deep dive investigations that we led on electoral, uh, donations and now [01:23:00] on, uh, voter lists, some really, really good election stories, profiles like on the leap by Nidhi Suresh, Shiv Narayan's profile on ANI, which had some really interesting, you know, details to it on Sanjay Pogalia, Tanishka had an amazing profile.
So this is a, You know, it's an ear end piece that'll tell you about all the amazing things we've been able to achieve in 2024. Thanks to you guys as subscribers and those who don't subscribe, shame on you. You must do it.
Abhinandan: Hallelujah.
Manisha: Yeah. I mean, look at, it's amazing that we've managed to do all of this this year.
Yeah. Just go through it and you'll see. I'm very happy with us. An
Raman: electoral bond story that we broke.
Manisha: So please, uh, we've been able to achieve quite a lot of stuff without any ad money and we want to have that going. So subscribe to News Laundry. Do something good this year end.
Abhinandan: So I completely endorse and reinforce what Manisha said.
My recommendation is to subscribe, pay to keep news free. And I have a non news recommendation and [01:24:00] I just discovered the show last week. And after I think, um, which is a show that is based on Murdoch's
Manisha: succession
Abhinandan: after succession, it's the first show that I watched complete. Now, I think I also watched, um, the midnight freedom at midnight complete.
Uh, but I found, I was told it is almost five years old. It's called a maiden heaven.
Manisha: And,
Abhinandan: uh, fantastic show. I watched season one. It was, I think it was just really smart, really well
Raman: written. Is it about the low middle class American family? No, it's basically
Abhinandan: about this, uh, guy and girl who run a, uh, marriage, uh, what do you call it, wedding management, wedding management company.
It's by
Manisha: Zoya Akhtar and Reema Kabdi Productions. Made in Heaven, it's a very popular one.
Abhinandan: It's so well cast, other than one or two which I thought were miscast. And the guy, main lead, is such a good actor. I don't even know if he's done anything after that. But, uh, yeah. [01:25:00] That's my recommendation. And I think I've already recommended it in the past, but now that I've read pretty much all of it.
Ruchi Sharma's book, Where Capitalism Went Wrong, is a must read. It's first. Everyone who's arguing on socialism versus capitalism versus this thing versus that thing. It's such a dumb argument. Just go over the data and maybe you will change your mind on how, you know, one should look at economics and policy that, that, uh, impacts us on that note.
Thank you, dear Prashant. Thank you, Anil. And Priyali for this recording. Thank you, Manisha ma'am. Thank you.
Manisha: Happy new year to everyone. Happy new year. Thank
Abhinandan: you all. All of you for supporting us, for subscribing to us, for keeping independent media going, let 2025 be our biggest year yet. Let's just rock it.
And I'm going to be ending with this song to motivate you to like, make it even more free than it is. Have a fantastic 2025.[01:26:00] [01:27:00]
Song: Transcribed by
Sting: https: otter. ai
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