A former Hawthorn staff member at the centre of the AFL's investigation of the alleged mistreatment of the club's First Nations players says he has "nothing to say sorry for" but admitted he and other coaches engaged in behaviour that "overstepped the mark" and made him feel "uncomfortable".
In an interview with The Age, former Hawthorn football club welfare manager Jason Burt — one of three men at the centre of allegations made in the Hawthorn review — said he had would not be apologising to former players and their partners but admitted he regretted an incident in which he accompanied coaches Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan to the home of 'Zac' and 'Kylie', a First Nations player and his pregnant fiance.
Burt told The Age the latter incident "overstepped the mark from being supportive to what could be deemed intimidating … I get that and that's what makes me feel uncomfortable."
Burt claimed he was not present for a meeting in which 'Ian', another former Hawthorn player interviewed for the Hawthorn review, has alleged he was told by Clarkson to have his partner's pregnancy terminated for the sake of his career.
Clarkson and Chris Fagan have continually denied any allegation of wrongdoing.
"I was so bruised by it all, that I couldn't really walk down the street. I didn't feel like walking down the street because I didn't know who was looking at me going, 'That's the racist guy that's just been named'," Burt told The Age.
Burt said he had provided the AFL's investigative panel with a detailed response to the allegations but was not interviewed by the panel.
Relationship intervention at player's home was 'over the top'
In an interview with ABC Sport in September 2022, 'Zac' said that in a meeting with Burt, Clarkson and Fagan, he'd pushed back on the club's plans to have him separate from his partner.
The couple had just become engaged and Kylie was seven weeks pregnant when the convoy of coaches allegedly walked into her home and declared the relationship over as Zac stood by silently.
Zac told ABC Sport he was relocated to Burt's home, told to change his SIM card and was soon "wondering what sort of person I had become".
In his interview with The Age, Burt did not comment on the SIM card or Zac's temporary move into his home, and claimed Zac had expressed "uncertainty" over the relationship.
He admitted that Clarkson and Fagan had been present at the intervention at the player's home, that it was "over the top" and "wasn't a pretty discussion", but claimed that Zac had "delivered the news" himself.
"It probably should have been just me in with Zac," Burt said.
"I think that would have been far less intimidating."
For six weeks after the incident, Kylie told ABC Sport, she frantically tried to re-establish contact with Zac, calling and emailing the club repeatedly.
In one email, she wrote: "Not one person has contacted me and asked if I'm OK or needed help, nobody has checked that the baby is OK."
Kylie said she continued to be denied access to Zac and said she didn't know where he was. At 13 weeks, she suffered a devastating miscarriage.
"You can't imagine how lonely and lost I was in that hospital bed," Kylie told ABC Sport in 2022.
"Just weeks earlier we were becoming a family, and now I'm lying here and thinking I don't even have a reason to live."
'They are disgusted at how they are being downplayed'
On Saturday, lawyer Dr Judy Courtin, who represents Zac and Kylie, issued a statement in response to Burt's comments, giving previously unpublished information contradicting certain aspects of Burt's account.
"Whilst our clients are grateful to Jason Burt for acknowledging some elements of the past events, they are disgusted at how they are being downplayed," Courtin said in the statement.
"Burt talks about the fateful day when he, Clarkson and Fagan took Zac to his own home to tell Kylie that Zac is leaving the relationship.
"Burt says that: 'It wasn't a pretty discussion and Zac came and delivered the news'.
"This is incorrect. Zac, visibly distressed and uncontrollably crying, barely spoke in that meeting and it was Clarkson who dominated and led the discussion.
"Our clients say that on this day, Burt and Kylie's mum were outside the house and were not privy to the majority of the conversation inside with Clarkson, Fagan, Zac and Kylie. Further, correspondence from the time speaks to a conversation between Burt and Kylie with Burt saying the separation was not instigated by Zac, rather by Clarkson."
Courtin's statement quoted Kylie as saying: "Not once had Jason said Zac wanted to end the relationship, in fact it was reiterated to me as entirely the opposite."
Courtin said the couple also disputed Burt's claim that he did not know the couple were engaged, quoting Kylie as saying: "Jason absolutely knew we were engaged. Zac had distributed engagement party invitations at the club prior to the meeting, and after the meeting Burt texted me to see if I needed help cancelling the engagement party".
Courtin also quoted Zac as saying: "Jason's version is inaccurate. I was set to play a game that weekend, I'd gone to training feeling good. I knew exactly where my footy was at, it was speaking for itself.
"Not only did Burt know that we were engaged, he knew Kylie was pregnant with a planned pregnancy.
"For Burt to insinuate that we left the HFC better people, is insanity. We left that club with scars and significant trauma."
"My clients look forward to the day when they can have a face-to-face meeting with Clarkson, Fagan and Burt. Zac and Kylie want what is right," Courtin said.
Courtin also took aim at Hawthorn, saying the cultural safety review was "reprehensibly managed by the club" and "caused a whole new bout of harm" to her clients.
"The review and its disturbing findings were the making of the club and, thus, its responsibility," Courtin said.
"The HFC shamefully shirked that responsibility by relinquishing it to the AFL to fix. But 'fixed' it is not. Battle lines have been entrenched.
"Too many peoples' lives have been turned upside down, including my clients, and there is no end in sight. What could have been a restorative and healing process underpinned by the truth, has been seriously corrupted."
ABC Sport has offered Jason Burt the opportunity to reply to Dr Courtin's statement.
'It was never said in my presence'
Speaking on the matter of 'Ian' and 'Amy', the couple who alleged that Hawthorn applied pressure to terminate a pregnancy, Burt told The Age he was not present for any such meeting.
"The accusation is that it was said in my presence," Burt said.
"It was never said in my presence. It was never said to any player in any type of circumstance, that abortion was an option. No."
Burt said he'd discussed the pregnancy with Ian and admitted he had encouraged the couple to relocate to a neighbourhood closer to the club.
"He said 'Jase, I'm so happy.' I said, 'Congratulations'," Burt said.
"But I did have a challenging conversation with him around, there's some things he needs to work on to be ready to be a dad and he acknowledged those things.
"It was a turbulent time for Ian."
Speaking to the ABC in September 2022, Ian alleged he was also told to end his relationship, change his SIM card and move in with a Hawthorn assistant coach, orders that were 'intimidating, confusing and upsetting'.
ABC Sport confirmed that Ian had been abruptly moved into the house of a Hawthorn assistant coach and stayed for at least two months.
Speaking to ABC Sport in 2022, Amy said: "This is a sacred thing, the bond between a mother and a child, and Hawthorn wiped their feet all over that."
"Hawthorn says it's the family club. Yet they tore ours apart."
Burt denied claims from another First Nations former player, 'Liam', that the club had discouraged his pregnant partner 'Jacqui' from relocating to Melbourne when Liam was drafted. Burt said she did so with the support of the club.
"I think it was Liam's diligence to be the best player he can be, I think he twisted … what we were saying to him about how long he could spend home because he wanted to come back and he wanted to train and he wanted to give himself the best platform to be an AFL player," Burt told The Age.
'I think we were very proactive'
Burt also commented on the involvement of Cyril Rioli and his wife Shannyn Ah Sam-Rioli in the AFL investigation.
"I think the grievance was Shannyn felt we weren't doing enough in the space of cultural awareness," Burt said.
"I think it's Shannyn's grievance with the club. He [Cyril] shares it now. He gave everything to our club.
"I would say that he would say that we, as senior people at the club, should be doing more to support the Aboriginal people at the club. And I just don't agree with that. I think we were very proactive. "
Asked if First Nations players had been treated in a culturally insensitive manner, Burt said: "It's more about the way they felt. I don't think there was any willing intent to be culturally insensitive at our football club, but I have to acknowledge that the way people felt, with what was said, could have been."
Saying he had "nothing to say sorry for", Burt added: "I'll never really understand what an Aboriginal person, a First Nations person, feels. That's just common sense. I don't know how things I may have done have been received. And I'm sad for that, and I'm sad for them."
ABC Sport has contacted the AFL and Hawthorn for comment.
