A former manager of Tasmania's Ashley Youth Detention Centre says he was not told of an allegation against a member of the management team.
Patrick Ryan, who has appeared before the Commission of Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse in Tasmanian Government Institutions, was the centre manager from 2017 until 2021.
Mr Ryan told the commission he encouraged all staff to "get out of their offices" and have contact with the young people detained at the centre.
He said he first became aware of a historical allegation against management team member Lester* during the commission of inquiry's hearings.
"If I was aware of those at the time, I wouldn't have encouraged Lester's contact with young people, there would've needed to be some intervention," Mr Ryan said.
"It is something I should have known, something I should have been advised of."
The commission has heard the allegation was made in 2020.
Mr Ryan was asked about the attempted sexual assault of Henry* with a water bottle by two other boys – an incident the commission previously heard evidence about.
According to Mr Ryan's report, Henry's underpants remained on, but a subsequent report, made by someone who viewed CCTV footage of the incident, said:
"An inmate starts pulling the victim's pants down and another inmate goes to help, the victim's bare buttocks can be seen briefly."
Mr Ryan told the commission on Wednesday he considered the incident a "sexualised incident" rather than a sexual assault, and that there were "different opinions" about whether or not it should be categorised as a sexual assault.
"Is it fair to say that you took the interpretation that minimised the seriousness of the conduct?" counsel assisting the commission Elizabeth Bennett SC asked.
"No, no, I didn't, I don't agree with that. The incident was reported and was taken seriously," Mr Ryan said.
"Sitting here with the benefit of hindsight, was there a better way of explaining that? Yes, but ... I was sending this [report] to my director who I'd spoken with, who I'd met with, who I'd shown the footage to."
'Aspects' of therapy, but no wholistic therapeutic approach
Mr Ryan came to the position at Ashley after about 30 years as a police officer, telling the commission his formal qualification was a graduate certificate in police studies.
He told the commission he applied for the job at Ashley because he wanted to gain broader experience as part of his plan to be promoted to the rank of inspector in Tasmania Police.
He said it was never suggested to him that the appointment of someone with a policing background was connected with a hope that there would be a shift towards tighter discipline at Ashley.
Mr Ryan told the commission the move towards a therapeutic approach was a theme of the position description and his job interview.
He said he did some research about what a therapeutic approach involved – including reading literature on it and a government media release.
"I was working closely with the change manager who was, I suppose, looking and mapping out what a therapeutic approach would look like," he said.
Mr Ryan told the commission the change manager was employed at the same time as him and worked at the centre for 18 months.
Ms Bennett asked Mr Ryan: "What was the therapeutic model you were working to?"
He said: "There wasn't a therapeutic model rolled out while I was there".
"There were elements of work being done therapeutically but it hadn't been captured by a process."
Mr Ryan said when he started in the position, he was not told about any cultural issues among the centre's staff, but after working there for a while, "I could sense that not everyone was happy".
"Did you understand that it was a functional and-well operating detention centre at the time you started?" Ms Bennet asked.
"No," Mr Ryan replied.
Questions over isolation practices
Mr Ryan was questioned over policies in place at Ashley during his tenure, relating to the isolation of detainees.
The commission heard that when detainees were isolated in their rooms, there were legislated time-frames and paperwork requirements.
"I had to review incidents of isolation, which I did. Often there were forms that were incomplete, for example, the signature wasn't on it or it wasn't attached to the file, so I would need to review those and ensure everything was in order," Mr Ryan said.
Mr Ryan said there was also a program called the blue program that was used while he was centre manager.
Under that program, Mr Ryan told the commission, the detainee put on blue status would be sent to their bedroom and the door "would normally be locked".
He did not agree that it was the same as isolation – which can only be done for a set period of time and requires certain paperwork and is defined as locking a detainee in a room separate from others and from the normal routine of the centre.
"I think what you're saying is that, because this was a program, like the teaching program or the health or whatever, it does not come within the definition of isolation, that's what you're saying?" Commission president Marcia Neave asked.
"Yeah, that's correct," Mr Ryan said.
"I took advice and had discussion and that's the position I reached."
Closure time frame 'very tight'
Head of Youth Justice Reform in the Communities Department Chris Simcock – who has been in the job for three weeks – told the commission there was still much work to do before the state government's deadline of 2024 to close Ashley would be met.
"Some colleagues [within the public service] have suggested that it might not be possible to achieve that," Mr Simcock said.
"I think it will be very tight and I think it also depends on what the final design for the detention centre or centres is."
The government's plan is for two smaller youth detention centres to replace Ashley – one in the north and one in the south of the state.
"I am not convinced that that's necessarily the best approach because I'm really conscious that I don't think we should – and I certainly don't want to – replicate two Ashleys, which we could do," Mr Simcock said.
"There's a very large gap around Australia about what happens to young people once they leave detention."
He said he had asked Noetic Group – the company engaged to provide a design brief for the new centres – to also consider options for young people leaving detention.
Mr Simcock said he did not agree with calls to close the centre immediately.
"I think the immediate closure of Ashley has the potential to damage the reforms that we're doing," he said.
Mr Simcock told the commission that staffing levels at the centre had recently increased to enable the return of normal operations at the centre, including schooling. But he said more workers were needed "as soon as possible".
The commission heard six youth detention centre workers from Alice Springs were moving to Tasmania to take up positions at Ashley and other positions would soon be advertised.
*Names have been changed.
