In the first Liberal party room meeting after Dominic Perrottet vowed to take on New South Wales’ powerful club lobby through a move to cashless poker machine gaming, he got a taste of what he was up against.
“As one member said to me, there are four levels of government in their electorate,” the premier recalls. “Federal government, state government, local government and clubs. And therein lies the problem.”
For decades in NSW, the sway of the club lobby meant gambling reform was a non-starter politically. Despite the increasing evidence of gambling-related harms in the pokies capital of Australia, the memory of the devastating marginal-seat campaigns waged against Julia Gillard in the lead-up to the 2013 federal election meant there was no appetite to relitigate the issue.
In the last three state elections, the Coalition signed memorandums of understanding with ClubsNSW touting its support for the sector. In 2019 Labor released its own “plan to support clubs”.
So, when in February Perrottet announced a $344m plan to move the state to cashless gaming by 2028, it was seen as a watershed moment in the state’s politics.
Not only was Perrottet poking the beast, he was doing it a month out from an election in which his 12-year-old Coalition government – beset by scandals, retirements and a creaking budget – was asking for a fourth term in power.
In an interview on St Patrick’s Day at the Crows Nest Hotel on the city’s north shore, Perrottet gives Guardian Australia the most compelling glimpse yet into how he made it happen. As the premier admits, there were “moments of weakness” when he felt he would fail.
“If I hadn’t literally put my career on the line on this issue I would never … never have achieved the change,” he says.
‘I was starting so far behind’
Months after Perrottet planted the flag on gambling reform in the wake of a NSW Crime Commission report which recommended cashless pokies after finding that billions of dollars in “dirty” money was being gambled in pubs and clubs every year, the premier met plenty of sceptics.
Senior ministers questioned the plan, while Labor quickly dashed any hope of bipartisan support by insisting it would only commit to a trial of the technology.
As the premier tells it, “I didn’t start with too many friends.” He began working on Liberal party ministers individually, telling them “why we needed to do it”. But there were “still some nervous ones”, he admits, particularly those in marginal seats, as well as the outgoing transport minister, David Elliott, who criticised the plan.
“There were moments where I believed I couldn’t do it,” he says. “I had moments of weakness, in the sense where I felt I couldn’t achieve … what I needed to. I thought I was starting so far behind, and I needed everyone [onboard].”
Part of the push, he says, was about staking his leadership on the issue, saying he “needed to” to win over the party, and, particularly, the Coalition’s partner in the Nationals.
Although Perrottet says the Nationals leader, Paul Toole, was “solid” on the plan once he was convinced the transition – in the form of industry assistance – would support clubs , he was also forced to compromise.
“I did believe we could do it faster than 2028,” he says. “But ultimately, as long as we were starting in 2024, this will be done before 2028.”
Perrottet became premier in October 2021 following Gladys Berejiklian’s resignation in the wake of an Icac investigation. Early on, gambling reform didn’t seem to be a likely cause. One of his first acts as premier was a cabinet reshuffle which saw the demotion of Victor Dominello, the gaming minister who had earned the ire of ClubsNSW over his own push for a version of cashless pokies. Dominello was replaced by Kevin Anderson, a more junior Nationals minister.
In an interview with the ABC’s Four Corners this month, Dominello described the “intense” lobbying that followed him floating a mandatory cashless gambling card in 2020 – particularly aimed at Nationals MPs.
Perrottet has previously denied removing Dominello as a result of lobbying from the industry, saying he was “never under pressure”, but he concedes it was a question of “picking your battles” with the junior Coalition partner.
“I can’t speak on behalf of the Nationals but what I can say is when I sat down with Paul Toole we had a discussion around portfolios and they wanted gaming and racing,” he says.
“The Coalition is very different to the Labor party … we’re two separate parties and you’ve got to get the relationship right. If you manage it well you get good outcomes like we got with gambling, but you pick your battles.”
‘I was pigeonholed at the start’
Perrottet’s willingness to go out on a limb on pokies reform is perhaps the most stark example of the difference between him and the opposition leader, Chris Minns, who has been careful to stick to a more narrow platform in the lead-up to the election.
The premier, by contrast, seems to relish the cut-and-thrust of political debate. When Guardian Australia asks him about previous off-the-cuff comments he has made supporting a push for publicly funded elections to remove donor influence, he admits, wryly, that he hasn’t yet figured out how to do it.
“I think we should do it,” he says. “I’ve just got to work out how.” But, amid an election campaign, he says he feels “uncomfortable” about political donors and the access they receive.
“I’ve gone to fundraisers and people have gotten up and spoken about, you know, issues [and] it kind’ve feels like, you get to ask a question to the premier or the leader of the party because you paid $1,000 to sit in the room or whatever it is,” he says. “Well, the single mum in Mount Druitt’s not here.”
If it seems curious that Perrottet, a member of the Liberal party’s rightwing faction who, on his ascension to the top job, was labelled as a conservative warrior, is leading the charge on issues typically associated with the progressive wing of politics, he insists it’s because he was wrongly prejudged.
“I haven’t changed at all,” he says. “I think I was pigeonholed at the start.
“On one hand I get criticised [by conservatives] for not going to [George] Pell’s funeral. On the other hand I get criticised for not going to Mardi Gras. It’s like, well, what’s it matter?
“Like, people can make their own decisions but ultimately people should be judged on their record … My ultimate philosophical position is I believe in people’s freedom, respect and tolerance.”
‘I needed the public to see the problem’
Perrottet’s biggest regret as premier came early, when he was bullish about opening up the state after the Omicron Covid-19 lockdown. He says this shaped the way he dealt with the gambling reforms.
“The worst mistake a politician can make is finding a solution to something that no one sees as a problem,” he says. “I needed the public to see the problem. So I knew all along that once I had the Crime Commission report, bang, we’re going to change and that’s the foundation. Then the discussion needed to begin.”
Whether that discussion – and Labor’s unwillingness to follow, instead committing to a trial of the technology on 500 machines if it wins power – will be enough to win the Coalition an election in which it trails in the polls remains to be seen.
But, he insists, it remains the right thing to do. While speaking to the Guardian he recalls a tour he took of a club as treasurer, one of the first moments the issue began to percolate in his mind.
“It was like nine o’clock in the morning,” he says. “And there were so many, a number of people, just sitting there. I remember thinking this is not normal. This is not normal and no one talks about it. It’s this kind of hidden scourge on society that we just don’t talk about.
“People say, ‘Oh, well, you’re calling out an exception’ … that’s not right. You wouldn’t call sitting at a poker machine transfixed at nine o’clock in the morning a recreational habit, you call that a problem.”
