Earlier this year, former All Black Campbell Johnstone came out as gay - the first top-tier Kiwi male rugby player to do so. Why, in 2023, was it such a groundbreaking moment for the sport?
Back in the 1990s, Victoria University associate professor of law Dean Knight was a part of rugby history.
He organised the world's first gay rugby match: Wellington's Krazy Knights faced off against the Ponsonby Heroes.
When that match was played in 1998, the discourse on the rugby field "was a lot more ugly".
"Homophobic language was probably rife, and there weren't role models," Knight tells The Detail.
"[Australian rugby league player] Ian Roberts ... was out, but he was a small lonely person on that horizon."
Knight admits he got "a bit teary" when he saw Johnstone say he was gay.
"To be honest, my first reaction was one of joy and looking at a guy there who was just relaxed, comfortable in his skin."
Despite some commentators saying Johnstone coming out publicly doesn't matter, Knight says visibility, and more role models, are important.
"We need role models, we need guys bringing their full selves to their sports ... we can't underestimate the value of role models and other people walking before us to make it easier for us to engage in our own personal choices about how we present ourselves."
Alice Soper is a freelancer for women's sport - a commentator, rugby player and advocate, among other roles. She's also an out and proud queer woman.
She says a change to focus on people, rather than the game, could help men's rugby become more inclusive.
"I think we have had a tendency with our All Blacks – we have made that so professional it's become commercial and so it hasn't really allowed for 'people first'. In the US, for example, they tend to lead with 'player first' whereas we lead with rugby first ... it leads for a more shallow storytelling.
"I think that's led to that disconnect, whereas in the women's game – being in this moment of transition to professional – these people are tangible because they are still walking around in their community."
She encourages New Zealand Rugby to have more conversations with the Rainbow community.
"It has to be the All Blacks brand and the rugby community coming to the queer community, not the other way around," she says.
"Why not have a drag show at half time? There's lots of fun we could have with it!"
Hear more about Alice and Dean's experiences on the rugby field in the full podcast episode.
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