Jonathan, 35, Cardiff
Occupation Retraining as an accountant
Voting record Labour all his life
Amuse bouche Had a chance to talk to Jenna Coleman once when she was filming Doctor Who in Cardiff. Bottled it
Hugh, 38, Cardiff
Occupation CEO of a charity – but Hugh is speaking in a personal capacity
Voting record Labour, except for one election in a Lib Dem/Tory swing seat, when he voted Lib Dem
Amuse bouche Spent his teens and 20s playing in punk and hardcore bands
For starters
Hugh We got on really well, but I’d had a week to think about my arguments and he seemed a bit shellshocked.
Jonathan He was a genuinely nice person, and we had a lot in common, apart from Welsh independence.
Hugh The service was outstanding and the food was delicious. There were oysters, there was brill. Loved it.
Jonathan From sourdough bread to peanut butter parfait, it was the best food I’d had in my 35 years of eating.
The big beef
Jonathan Ever since the Tories got back in in 2010, I’ve seen how they starve Wales of funding and how it’s affecting society. Councils are losing money, services are being cut. Let’s not forget the pandemic, how Boris Johnson stuffed it up. I think Wales will be better off by itself. Westminster has got far too much control – we’ve got devolved powers but no tax-raising power, which is a huge issue. We would still collaborate with England, in much the same way as the nations of Europe collaborate.
Hugh I’ve got a lot of respect for the arguments for independence – I would support it if Wales went for it. But I don’t think it’s the best way. I would also like to rejoin the EU, and as slow as that would be, campaigning to rejoin the EU as the UK is going to be a more successful route to getting there. The alternative is a hard border with England. I don’t see that happening.
Jonathan I think there’s a sense of apathy, hopelessness, especially in the valleys; people feel powerless. Hugh has a point: you don’t know what’s going to happen. You just have to take a risk.
Hugh A lot of the independence arguments come from a place of lashing out at the status quo. I get that. But ultimately I think we have more to gain by staying together and making it work better.
Sharing plate
Jonathan Some people buy houses basically as assets. I can see why there’s a strong reaction against that, and local protests. You’ve got all these landlords exploiting Airbnb for short-term profit. Young people are being forced to rent at absurd prices because the properties just aren’t there. A friend of mine had his rent jacked up by 100%.
Hugh Local authorities in Wales have been freed up to apply up to 300% council tax on second homes. They’re supposed to invest the extra money in housing, and we both agree with that.
Jonathan I think it’s Westminster’s fault, for always making people with wealth and status the priority. There’s this fallacy that we could all become millionaires overnight, but it’s impossible.
Hugh It’s more apparent in Welsh-speaking communities – the market has been overheated by people buying second homes. It’s really interesting what’s been tried: the Welsh government has provided some money for community land trusts. There’s one on Gower, where people are coming together to buy land and build permanently affordable housing on it.
For afters
Jonathan In Wales, we have 20mph speed limits around schools; where my grandparents live, they have 20mph on the main road, and no one complains about it. Now it’s the default wherever there’s street lights, but the newspapers have generated this incredibly hostile response: “This is socialism, this is why Labour can’t be trusted.”
Hugh A lot of signatures on petitions against it come from troublemakers the other side of Offa’s Dyke. It’s the biggest petition Wales has ever seen, but it’s just grumpy people on Facebook stirring each other up.
Takeaways
Hugh He’s a lovely bloke and I would be happy to have another natter with him.
Jonathan He’s a very pleasant person. I think we had more in common than dividing us, which is refreshing these days.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
• Hugh and Jonathan ate at Thomas by Tom Simmons in Cardiff.
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• This article was amended on 21 December 2023 to correct the names in the captions
