A court has heard that the founder and CEO of a women-only social media app will not address a transgender woman as “Ms”, saying “I don’t think it’s kind to expect a woman to see a man as a woman”.
Roxanne Tickle is suing Giggle for Girls and its CEO, Sall Grover, for alleged unlawful discrimination after Tickle’s membership of the female only networking app was revoked in September 2021. Tickle is seeking damages.
On the second day of the trial, Grover gave evidence for more than two hours at Sydney’s federal court on Wednesday morning before federal court justice Robert Bromwich.
Tickle’s counsel, Georgina Costello KC, claimed the respondents had persisted in misgendering her for years, despite Grover once telling Tickle in a X interaction that “If I was to meet you IRL, I’d treat you how you want to be treated”.
Costello asked Grover if she would “call her Ms Tickle in real life?”
“No,” Grover answered. When asked if that was kind, Grover said: “I don’t think that it’s kind to expect a woman to see a man as a woman.”
The court was told that, as part of crowdfunding efforts towards covering Giggle’s legal costs, an Etsy shop is selling Team Giggle merchandise, including a $37.70 “Sweaty Balls Team Giggle” scented candle which features a “demeaning” image of Tickle.
When questioned whether she understood that the product was deeply offensive to the applicant, Grover said that “offence is very subjective”.
As part of her argument, Costello described a transgender woman who had a female birth certificate, hormone therapy, breasts, gender affirmation surgery, wore makeup and women’s clothes, had a woman’s hairstyle and used women’s facilities.
“I suggest to you that that is a woman in our society,” said Costello.
“I don’t agree,” replied Grover.
The landmark case is the first time gender identity discrimination laws have been tested in the federal court. Changes to the Sex Discrimination Act in 2013 made it unlawful under federal law to discriminate against a person on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity or intersex status.
Definitions of sex, gender and what it means to be a woman are central to the case.
Giggle’s legal team argues sex is a biological concept. It claims Tickle was discriminated against on the grounds of sex rather than gender identity and that, under the act, the app counts as a “special measure” that helps advance equality between men and women.
Giggle is represented by former Liberal party candidate Katherine Deves. Grover has said that she intends to take the case to the high court.
While the court heard on Tuesday that the app was designed as an “online refuge” for women, Grover and Giggle were subject to a “flood of male abuse” and that her email had been “bombarded by thousands of men”.
In media interviews in London in March, Grover described Tickle as a man, described “him” as “scary” and said that “he” had harassed her, the court heard.
Grover has spoken at conservative conference CPAC Australia and has given between 20 and 50 interviews about the case, she said.
She said she had messaged evolutionary biologist Colin Wright to seek advice. Wright is expected to give evidence in the trial.
As of Wednesday morning, an online crowdfunding platform to help cover Giggle for Girls’ legal costs had raised $512,000.
Grover said she had spent nearly half a million dollars on the development of the app. She was unable to answer questions about the company’s income over the last two to three years.
The app is now being rebuilt with a view to going back online, the court heard.
