On this episode of Fortune’s Leadership Next podcast, co-hosts Diane Brady, executive editorial director of the Fortune CEO Initiative and Fortune Live Media, and editorial director Kristin Stoller talk to Richard Edelman, CEO of Edelman about the Edelman Trust Barometer. They discuss how business became one of the most trusted pillars of society in America and what the media needs to do to regain its footing.
Listen to the episode or read the transcript below.
Transcript
Diane Brady: Leadership Next is powered by the folks at Deloitte who, like me, are exploring the changing roles of business leadership and how CEOs are navigating this change.
Hi everyone. Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the people…
Kristin Stoller: …and trends…
Brady: …that are shaping the future of business. I'm Diane Brady.
Stoller: And I'm Kristin Stoller.
Brady: So, Kristin, in this episode we are talking about trust, which is something that we in the media know plenty about. Lack of trust, loss of trust. And the Edelman Trust Barometer is the global gold standard for this. For 25 years, they've been going out across demographics, breaking it down by gender, breaking it down by country, and looking at these four institutions, government, media, NGOs, and business, and seeing, do they trust us? So what did you make of this year's report?
Stoller: I thought it was so interesting. I think for me, the most interesting part, and I pulled this out of the report, is fewer than half of respondents trust those who hold opposing political beliefs. So going into a new administration, I think that is really interesting because it's how do we bridge these divides to get people to trust each other?
Brady: Well, when we're in an echo chamber, I think one of the scariest things, of course, was that more than half of those aged 18 to 24 approve of violence, property damage, or misinformation as tools of change. So not only are we becoming more extreme, we're becoming more violent at the same time.
Stoller: Yeah, and that's, it's crazy that it's the young people who are becoming more violent and I'm going to throw it back on the other generation really fast. And as a kid growing up in the nineties, I remember my parents always used to tell me, do not trust everything you read on the internet. Be so careful.
Brady: Your dad was a journalist. Let's point that out.
Stoller: But these are the same people who now are going on Facebook believing everything that they see there. So it's interesting to me that mindset shift from the early age of the internet to now and why.
Brady: Well, and I think it says something about where we are in the economy and opportunity. I also think if you look back to the first Edelman Trust Barometer, the most trusted institution then was the NGO [non-governmental organization]. And this was a period of anger about globalization, a lot of fear. It was sort of still the bubble time for the dot-com boom. Here we are now, media is low. I think we're always pretty low, but business is the most trusted. Does that surprise you?
Stoller: You know, a little bit. But I feel like it's always been kind of heading this way, especially with all the discourse we've seen in the past few years. I think that really makes sense to what people believe. Who do you trust the most, is my question.
Brady: Media, of course, depending on who it is.
Stoller: I knew you were going to say that to us.
Brady: Well, look, I think it's about hope. And I think when you trust institutions, you work through them. You put your money in a bank, you don't trade on the street. And I think what's interesting is the developing countries now have higher levels of trust than a lot of the developed democracies. And to me, that's about opportunity, it's about fairness, and it's about seeing the rich get richer and everybody else fall behind. And nothing erodes trust like thinking your neighbors are getting off with something that you don't get.
Stoller: Totally, totally. Well, excited to talk to Richard about it.
[Music starts.]
Brady: We're seeing an erosion of trust in institutions which is being made worse amid the rise of AI and polarization. And yet, trust in business remains relatively strong. We spoke with Jason Girzadas, the CEO of Deloitte US, which is the longtime sponsor of this podcast. Here's what he had to say.
Jason Girzadas: Trust is a function of businesses meeting their stakeholders expectations and creating value. And that's true for customers. That's true for the workforce. That's true for society at large. And I think given the challenges that other key pillars of the economy and society have faced in terms of trust, businesses have an opportunity to actually rise above that set of concerns and forge new levels of trust with all their stakeholders. This is an opportunity for businesses to really lead around trust, creating experiences that are reliable, resilient, as well as fulfilling their expectations to those stakeholders. And over time, I think trust will be a function of our businesses actually meeting the human needs that are resident, whether it's around health and well-being or contributing to the environment or to worker satisfaction and engagement.
[Music ends.]
Brady: For 25 years, the Edelman Trust Barometer has been the global gauge by which we measure how institutions like business, government, NGOs, and media are delivering on their promise to citizens in different countries around the world. Do they trust us? And the man who's been leading that effort is Richard Edelman, CEO of the global communications firm founded by his father, Daniel, in 1952. A long legacy of trust there, Richard. Good to see you. I want to start with the fact that you started the Edelman trust barometer. Why?
Richard Edelman: Well, I had served as CEO of Edelman in Europe for three years, and I understood the power of NGOs in Europe. And I wanted to appreciate really what had happened in Seattle when the NGOs stormed the World Trade Organization meeting to protest globalization. And we were shocked to find that NGOs, in fact, were the most trusted institution in the world, ahead of business, ahead of government, ahead of media.
Brady: Why those four? And I'm very chuffed that media is part of the mix.
Edelman: We thought that they were the most fundamental to the global society and that, in fact, they each played their own roles. You know, business, the sort of driver of economic outcomes. You know, government, the ones who are sort of the arbiters setting the playing field. Media, the critics, the guide, the information source. And then NGOs really filling a vacuum amongst the other three.
Stoller: Richard, 25 years, that's a long time. What has changed the most or surprised you the most over the last 25 years?
Edelman: Well, there have been several important events. We had the Iraq War, we had the Great Recession. We also had the rise of social media. One billion people on Facebook in 2012. We also had COVID 19 and then most recently, the geopolitical tumult of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, etc. What's changed the most, I think, is first, that business became the most trusted institution in 2021. That was surprising, the most competent and ethical. The second is really the mass class divide. The idea that the top quartile and the bottom quartile really started to separate in 2012 in the U.S., U.K., and France, leading to Brexit, [French President Emmanuel] Macron and Trump. But then now it's in three quarters of the countries in a substantial way, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, etc.
Brady: You know, one of the things I find interesting and I know we've talked about this in the past, that you've cited Francis Fukuyama, that book he wrote on Trust, as one of the inspirations for the Edelman Trust Barometer. Before we get more deeply into what we're seeing around trust, I'd love you to talk a bit more about why does trust matter? Why is it so foundational to what we do?
Edelman: I think Fukuyama and Samuel Huntington both had their important thinking around trust related to the great conclusion that in fact it was the triumph of democracy and capitalism. In the nineties, you know, Soviet Union blew up, etc. Theirs was a very sort of legally based, trust construct that Fukuyama saw a difference, for instance, between the United States and Korea, one with a very well-established legal system, the other with sort of crony capitalism, whatever, in that period. The last 25 years has really put that thesis to bed. Because first you see that in fact, the countries that have single government, one-party government, in fact, have done better in trust than democracies. Also, there's real questions about capitalism and whether it's fair. And when you see that there's not a single democracy where people over 30% of people feel that their families are going to be better off in five years, that's a really very profound condemnation.
Brady: It feels like there is a direct correlation with the economy and what you're talking about, where you see that mass class divide. We've also seen a widening income divide. So is it reflective of democracy or is it reflective of the fact that the rich are getting richer and everyone else feels left behind?
Edelman: I think it's multiple factors. I think there's a real battle for truth, Diane. The people can't really put their hands on what's the truth? What is the truth about COVID? Where did it start? Was masking good? Should we been locked down? So that still needs a reckoning. But also, you're right, the mass class divide is reflective of an income divide and the stagnation of wages in the bottom half of the population. And the sense that everybody's scrambling just to make ends meet. And there's now this new fear of job loss to AI and I think in this 2025 study, there's a real rejection of AI unless people can believe in its promise being better than the risk of losing their jobs.
Stoller: I want to talk about that, Richard, because I was looking at your study and some 60% of people say that they struggled to discern credible news from disinformation in this age of AI. How are we looking at that? How are we combating that? What did you think seeing the results?
Edelman: I think the first thing is people want the media to move back to the middle, to be like Fortune. Then it shouldn't be ideological. It shouldn't be left or right. The second is, I don't think the media can do it alone. I think that the media has now been put in such a set of boxes, you know, thought bubbles left or right, that business, government, NGOs all have to correct misinformation and have a lower bar when there's a sort of free for all in the media environment. And whatever somebody says is as valuable as the other person and a denigration of expertise and COVID, you know, where the leading experts are now being questioned. Okay, then we have to correct facts.
Brady: What I think is interesting and I know Kristin, I feel like I should jump across the transom to you here is there's a generational divide on a lot of these issues. And I know with my kids, they actually don't trust AI as much as I do, and that may be the position that I'm in. But I feel like we should talk a little more about what we're seeing on the generational front. That's one of the reasons I value the trust barometer, Richard. What are you seeing there?
Edelman: So for me, the most alarming statistic in this barometer has to do with Gen Z feeling so aggrieved that they sanction violence of one form or another. I mean, much of it is misinformation but 20% literally say physical violence is okay in order to achieve change.
Brady: Yeah.
Edelman: That is a very important statistic to pay attention to and I think business has a really important role here. Business can't do this alone. And that's been the sort of tendency in the last four or five years. Well, if governments paralyze, well, business will take up the mantle on societal issues. And because business is so effective, you know, it can get it done. Well, that's too much reliance on a single institution. It's like being on a seesaw in a playground. One is up and one is down and government’s down and business is up. That's a bad idea. Seesaws are more fun when kids are of kind of equal weight. And the better idea here is business should do that which is in its swim lane. You know, where it can make impact, where it can make a difference, where it's good for the business and not overreach and not take on issues beyond its purview.
Stoller: The violence thing really shocks me, especially coming from a younger generation. But you're right, we're seeing it with the looting in California going on. We saw it with the tragedy with the UnitedHealthcare CEO. And I'm wondering why? What it is about this moment that you haven't seen in the past 25 years? What is what is spurring people toward violence?
Edelman: So I think primary source information is social media. And there's no sort of governor on that. Second is the idea somehow of isolation and mental health issues. And some of this was worsened by COVID and despair. And just the recognition that I'll never live as well as my parents and therefore I have no stake in society then. I can almost be an anarchist. We need to bring these people back. We need to get them back into the fold and make them at least moderate as to grievance instead of highly aggrieved, because those people actually trust institutions, the moderates.
Brady: I'd love to talk a little more about what you're seeing in the rest of the world. We alluded to this earlier with, you know, developed economies. Give me some sense, where are you seeing some of the greatest sparks of hope? Is it very much sort of these countries that are on the ascent? Fast growing economies like India, for example?
Edelman: Diane, the most important thing to see in some of these developing markets is the basic equivalence of trust levels in their institutions. So there is not the huge disparity as there is in the U.S. between business and government, like 50 points on capability. That doesn't exist in India or Singapore, for instance. Media and government have fairly well equal levels of trust as to business and NGOs. That's a functioning society where the competence and confidence in the elected officials is very high. We need to get back to that. And I actually think in this next administration in the U.S., there's that promise. That, in fact, we can have a period where, okay, we're going to deregulate energy prices are going to go down. It's going to be, you know, somehow a more free market for goods and now will somehow see that government can work well.
Brady: What gives me pause is a president who often accuses the likes of me of being fake news. How do we deal with this vilification of media since we are allegedly important? I think we're important, of course. What advice do you have to us?
Edelman: I think media needs to continue to do its job to tell people the truth and to be buttressed by business and other institutions. You know, let's talk about trade and tariffs. If a business has a major interest in free trade, then it should stand up and explain how this is keeping prices low and there's comparative advantage in all these things. So I don't think it's a time for for CEOs to put their heads down on issues that are vital to their industry.
Stoller: Another stat that I thought was really interesting and we've touched a bit on this, is that it says confidence in a better future is about 30%, with lows in about every Western democracy, which I thought was really interesting. Richard, why is this, in your opinion and how do we fix it going forward?
Edelman: I think we've had a rough period in economic performance. You look at some of those European countries, and I think the COVID overhang is very significant. I actually, you know, for the first time on this show, I'm going to call for a public reckoning on COVID. I think we need to actually have, as we did on 9/11, a specific examination of where did it come from, what did we do right, like warp speed? What did we do wrong? Lockdowns, you know, whatever. And that it was well-intended. But here are the lessons, because I think that kind of level set can enable people to go forward and stop repeating history, you know, and reprocessing.
Brady: You think we're still mired in COVID impacting how we think about the world?
Edelman: I do. I think we are still in a negative mindset. I think we still have that shadow over our heads. And we need to get out in the sunlight. And whatever that truth is, fine, let's get on with it. And I think everyone would welcome that.
Brady: I want to go beyond the trust barometer for a second, Richard, and talk a little bit about you and your role and Edelman's role as a global company. I mean, you know, you are in the communications business, you advise CEOs and NGO leaders and certainly many others. Give me a sense as a leader, how you're looking at the business landscape and are you finding people are coming to you with different types of problems now because of what you're seeing in the trust barometer or just generally in society?
Edelman: Yeah, we're seeing a lot more nationalism, Diane. A lot more frankly, questionable science and allegations about industries, cancer scares, etc. We're also seeing profound changes in behavior. People who are buying private label because they can't afford the brands or whatever. That's the nature of the work and we are always leaning in to the idea that companies should act and then communicate. And I mean, I remember working with United Airlines five or six years ago, and that passenger was pulled off the plane in Chicago, became quite famous. But you'll remember that they 10x-ed the amount that they would pay a passenger to go off a plane. They promised never to bring cops on a plane again unless there was violence or something. And they also were very clear that it's a passengers’ airline. We screwed up our system. You know, they apologized and were clear about it. Onwards. That's the sort of thing that companies need to do. Do something.
Brady: Yeah.
Stoller: I know we've talked a lot about the scary stuff, the violence, the bad stuff, but I want to also focus on what's good. Is there anything that's giving you hope from this report or that you're seeing from other CEOs that's really making you excited.
Edelman: You know, I saw a paper by Brad Smith, who's president of Microsoft, about the promise of AI, and I think it's really important. The health benefits, for example, of being able to say, okay, I can shorten the period of time for drug discovery. You know, there are 500,000 equations to be done and we can we can get it in one day down to three. And also the predictive ability to say that, you know, the Edelman family has this health risk and let's be more diagnostic. So I'm deeply excited about AI. I'm also excited about mRNA. Of course, this is in health again, but that drug delivery vehicle could be good for cancers and other things. And I also see the possibility of tech changing the landscape in a way that enables the world to, even like Edelman's moved a couple of hundred jobs to Bogota, Colombia, because in real time can be, doing really great digital work and have it be ready for the client. So it enables Edelman all of a sudden to compete with ad agencies. And so I feel good about, you know, invading other people's turfs as a business person.
Brady: Well, let me, and by putting on your communications guru hat, we've talked about these issues. A lot of CEOs are rightfully scared when you see people being gunned down in the street, execution style, because of their company, not who they are. If you were to think of a plan for the U.S. and the institutions that you cover in the barometer, how do we regain trust? You know, I've lived in countries where there's a lack of trust, and it's scary because it's hard to see the bridge back to winning. Do you have any thoughts as to what kind of plan we put in place to regain the trust of the American people?
Edelman: I think our big idea has to be optimism regained on the basis of action. And I think we should do a national reskilling and upskilling program because AI is coming like a train. I think also we should be very clear about how people can get into houses and how we can actually have neighborhoods that are safe and, you know, just things that lead to a normal life. And we also should get people to come out of their houses. I mean, it's great to stream. It's even better to go to the bar and get back to socializing, which goes back to my theory around the COVID effect. Again, you know, Tom Wilson of Allstate had this study done of the amount of negativity in media about the United States. We need to turn that to, Yes, we can, and feel like this is a society that's going to perform well over the next decade and give people the trust in its institutions and therefore the trust in economic optimism.
Brady: On a personal level. What's your level of trust in these institutions? How has it changed?
Edelman: I have a higher level of belief that we can make this work. I see the progress at businesses made, frankly, in the last 25 years. And, you know, it's ethics score, for example, has doubled. It's really impressive that business is as ethical as NGOs. That shows that change is possible. And you've also seen in some markets in Detroit, for example, the recovery of Detroit's incredible. I mean, I went there last year and the rebuilding and the investment and the, yes, this mayor is can-do and let's do it. And I also see a real chance for NGOs, particularly with the highly aggrieved. NGOs have been sort of crowded out the last few years. And the last is I see media having really woken up and that you are getting to people where they are, you know, whether it's podcasts, whether it's Ben Smith and starting Semafor. All of this is very good. We are going to reach people in different ways. So it's surround sound and we all have to dig in. Never give up.
Stoller: Richard, I have a quick question, a follow up question on your COVID thought because I thought that was just so interesting. So in practice, you said you wanted people back out going to the bars. Big fan of that. How do we do it? How do we get people back out? And what's keeping people, in your opinion, from returning to normal or a new normal?
Edelman: I think they got stuck into a certain set of habits when they were locked down and I think we haven't really gotten them out of it. Whether it's remote work, whether it's the idea somehow that you can have your life via social connections online. I think the real world is experiences. So we should use big events. For example, Edelman's working with America 250, which is the 250th birthday of this country, in 2026. That's a big opportunity for us to get back to optimism, but also to get people out of their houses. You know, go to the concerts, you know, go see the art exhibit, go do things. That's the American way. It's exciting.
Stoller: Before we wrap up here, is there anything that we didn't ask that you think that we should know about the report?
Edelman: Kris, I think the role of the CEO is quite fundamental. It's your core readership. And I don't want CEOs to take from this report that they should kind of withdraw from the discussion. I think CEOs have every reason to participate in discussions when they can have an impact, when their companies can make a difference, and when there is either some important aspect in their community, their stakeholders could benefit. So it's time for CEOs to judge which ones and which areas to go for.
Brady: Richard, thank you for joining us. And of course, more conversations to come.
Stoller: Thank you.
Leadership Next is edited by Nicole Vergalla.
Stoller: Our executive producer is Adam Banicki.
Brady: Our producer is Mason Cohn.
Stoller: Our theme is by Jason Snell.
Brady: Our studio producer is Natasha Ortiz.
Stoller: Leadership Next is a production of Fortune Media.
Brady: I'm Diane Brady.
Stoller: And I'm Kristin Stoller.
Brady: See you next time.
Leadership Next episodes are produced by Fortune's editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel. Nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.
