In 2015, John Bell stepped aside from Bell Shakespeare, the Australian theatre company he co-founded 25 years previously.
At the time he made one thing very clear: he was not retiring.
True to his word, Bell has been busy ever since — writing, performing and making public appearances, including recently on Q&A ahead of his forthcoming ABC Boyer Lectures.
But the 81-year-old accepts that refusing to retire isn't for everyone.
"I think maybe surgeons should have a used-by-date, for instance, before they get a bit shaky," he says.
"Whereas, say, psychiatrists, authors or newspaper editors, there's no reason why they should stop as long as they keep their minds fresh and can roll with the times rather than get stuck in a groove."
He says community elders can have a unique role to play.
Australia does not have many mentoring programs, he says, and there should be more thought put into how we can better pass knowledge from generation to generation.
In Bell's case, he's continuing to do occasional classes and talks to share what he's learnt over the years.
"Even then, I suppose, with teachers you have to be careful because a drama teacher can get a bit out of touch and be sticking to the old ways," he says.
"The younger generation needs somebody younger and fresher and more in tune with the zeitgeist."
If, as he says, it's up to each individual to decide how long they continue to contribute, why does Bell keep working so hard?
"I think I'm probably just driven actually — and it's not necessarily a great thing to be," he says.
When Bell finds himself with free time, he feels he should be performing or working on a new show.
It's a state of being he describes as "a curse".
"It means I can't really enjoy just taking time out to flop on the beach," he says.
"I've got to be thinking of the next project or actually working on one."
One man in his time plays many parts
Nonetheless Bell has been enjoying himself.
In the past two years alone, he has released a book and toured his new one-person play, One Man in His Time, to celebrate 30 years of the company he founded.
He's especially fond of his recent collaborations with musicians including the Tinalley String Quartet and pianist Simon Tedeschi.
These shows are based around music and poetry. In the show Bright Star, for example, John Bell performs Keats while Tedeschi plays works by Schubert.
Bell says the shows are popular and easy to do, as they can be transported easily and put on at a moment's notice.
He also enjoys simply being on stage with musicians, seeing and hearing them work up close.
"I'm very in awe of their talent and their technique," he says.
"I find musicians have a very different attitude to their work and a great sense of humour, and I just enjoy that very different atmosphere.
"It's different to the energy you find with actors in a theatre show — not better or worse, just different."
He hasn't done as much performing as he'd have liked recently.
Like many others in the live performance industry, Bell has had his share of postponed and cancelled shows.
He thinks it will take time for Australian theatre to emerge from the pandemic.
He's also noticed that most theatre companies are being cautious in their programming and mainly presenting light-hearted productions with wide box office appeal.
"There won't be very much in the way of adventurous productions, I think, for a little while until the theatres feel safe and solid again."
It's a similar approach to one he took with Bell Shakespeare years ago after the sudden departure of a general manager – but Bell points to one key difference.
While Bell Shakespeare's productions never had fewer than nine actors on stage during that time, he says, most of the upcoming productions that have been announced have very small casts.
"Many of the companies, I notice, are putting on two- or three-handers for some time to come," he says.
He believes this will be a problem for the industry given that many Australian actors have missed out on up to two years' work.
"I think the companies should be trying as much as possible to enlarge their cast size and employ as many artists as they can to get the acting profession back on its feet."
But while he wishes theatre companies were employing more people, Bell is more enthusiastic about who they are employing.
"I think the big push now, in, especially in the theatre is about diversity and including people whose voices haven't been heard enough in the past," Bell says.
He says there is more cultural and gender diversity in Australian theatre than ever before.
"Theatre is changing [its] attitude a bit towards who should be on stage and who's not allowed up there."
Some have greatness thrust upon them
Bell has spent much of the past few years thinking about leadership.
His recent book, Some Achieve Greatness, outlines the lessons today's leaders can take from the works of Shakespeare.
It's a subject he returns to in his ABC Boyer Lectures, which begin this weekend.
Bell says, as we emerge from the pandemic, leaders will need to be articulate, courageous and resilient and will require generosity, compassion and empathy.
And while our political leaders may not always inspire us, he hopes our cultural leaders can.
He says it's important theatres commission writers to capture what we've all been through these past two years.
"I think there's been a greater awareness of our fragility," Bell says.
In this period of uncertainty, he says, people will look to the arts for reassurance.
This doesn't mean only programming "dismissive, cheerful" pieces, he says, but also work that examines the meaning of life – why we are here, and how we can make the most of it.
"I think one of the most disturbing things, for me, has been looking around the world and seeing the devastation that a pandemic has caused," Bell says.
"I hope that might have some [positive] impact on our artists and make us a little less insular and a bit more aware of the global catastrophe we've been through and how much [other] countries need our support.
"I mean, what's happening in Afghanistan now is simply appalling, with tens of millions of people on the brink of starvation, and the world's doing nothing."
But what we can't do, Bell says, is give into helplessness and simply throw our hands up in despair.
He believes we must be more imaginative in the way we cope with the catastrophes of the future – particularly those wrought by climate change.
Some countries have been enlightened in their approach to climate change, he says, but Australia isn't one of them.
"I think Australia's policy is really deficient," he says.
"And of course, we've got [those] like Russia and China, sitting outside the room and not offering much in the way of encouragement.
"That's a gigantic worry because without those two superpowers engaging with this, there's not much hope for the rest of us."
"I wish the whole world community could come together and really agree on a policy that would support everybody."
John Bell's Boyer Lectures, titled Shakespeare: Soul of the Age, will be broadcast on ABC TV and ABC Radio National, and available on ABC iview and via the ABC listen app.
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