A.K. Antony interview | ‘Anti-BJP, anti-Modi sentiment is prevalent’

A.K. Antony, former Kerala Chief Minister and Union Defence Minister, has been an astute politician and a member of the Congress Working Committee (CWC). He left national politics two years ago after two bouts of COVID-19 but has lately been working for his party from Indira Bhavan, the Kerala Pradesh Congress Committee (KPCC) headquarters in Thiruvananthapuram.

In an interview with The Hindu at the KPCC office, Mr. Antony speaks about the future of the INDIA bloc, the Congress’s vexed relations with the Left in Kerala and his son Anil K. Antony’s entry to the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).

Edited excerpts...

What’s your assessment of the 2024 Lok Sabha election situation in Kerala?

Frankly speaking, I wouldn’t say it’s just a pro-Congress feeling. But the people here have a special liking and affection for Rahul Gandhi. Among the national leaders, he is loved the most. Instead of calling it pro-United Democratic Front (UDF), it is an anti-BJP, anti-Modi sentiment, which is stronger among the minorities. Then there’s the anti-government and anti-Pinarayi (Vijayan) sentiment (in Kerala). When all these come together, the UDF will improve its position from 2019. The Alappuzha seat, which we lost then will be wrested by K.C. Venugopal, who is a familiar face there. I don’t see any seat where we are likely to lose. If we work hard, we will secure a win in all 20 (in Kerala). Some 16, 17 seats are certain and if we focus on the rest, we will get them too.

Is the BJP likely to open its account in Kerala? 

I don’t understand why the Prime Minister is making campaign forays to Kerala. Someone is clearly misleading him. The BJP is not going to open its account in Kerala. They will not only lose all 20 seats but also finish third in all of them. The contest in Kerala is between the UDF and the LDF (Left Democratic Front). Kerala’s chemistry doesn’t allow the BJP to flourish.

But the BJP’s vote share rose to over 15% in 2019...

2019 was a special year. Kerala is a State with the maximum number of RSS shakhas. The Jana Sangh itself was strong in many places, such as Kasaragod, for a long time. The entry of women of all age groups to Sabarimala was an emotional issue in Kerala, not easily understood by the people outside the State. The Pinarayi Vijayan-led Kerala government made a foolish mistake. As soon as the Supreme Court judgment came, instead of apprising the court that it would be difficult to implement it, they took a stance the following day that it would be implemented. There are so many Supreme Court judgments on which appeals have been filed. Even this judgment was eventually stayed by the court.

The Kerala government made blunders in succession and said women’s entry to Sabarimala would be made a reality regardless of opposition from any side. Some who came from other States, it’s now suspected if they were real believers, were taken from the Pampa to Marakkoottam with police escort. These visuals were aired by television channels and that created an emotionally surcharged atmosphere.

The next blunder was to present it as an issue of caste divide and the CPI(M) formed a reformation alliance. In the case of women’s entry to Sabarimala, there isn’t a caste question and almost everyone in the Hindu faith approached the issue emotionally. The government failed to fathom that. The BJP used it most emotionally and went up the 18 holy steps of the hill shrine to protest. The emotions it triggered helped the BJP. But the Congress showed some restraint. That issue doesn’t exist now. 

But wasn’t it the Congress that benefited the most from those protests?

Yes, it was the Congress that benefited across Kerala. But in some constituencies, it benefited the BJP.

The Left’s argument now is two-fold. First, as CPI(M) general secretary Sitaram Yechury told us, if there is anti-incumbency, it should be against the 18 sitting MPs of the UDF and not the State government. Secondly, Sabarimala issue no longer exists and therefore, the voting percentage and seat share of the UDF will naturally drop this time.

I respect Mr. Yechury, but he doesn’t know the ground situation in Kerala. The Left is in an even more dangerous situation now than it was then. India now stands divided into two blocs. One that supports the BJP and the other which wants India to retain not only its geographical integrity, but also its pluralism, secularism, federalism, the fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution, its basic structure prepared by Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, social justice, voting rights not based on religious grounds... Discussion is rife whether the BJP would try to change the Constitution and change India in a way it would be difficult to identify the real country. The same discussion happened during the Partition. When Pakistan broke away, the question was, ‘Why not Hindustan now?’. The proponent of that was the Hindu Maha Sabha. But Gandhiji took a stand that India belonged to all who lived here, a stand which was supported by (Jawaharlal) Nehru, the Congress and Dr. Ambedkar. India should remain that way. If the BJP returns to power again, chances are the Constitution will be subverted.

It could challenge our secularism and the diversities in terms of food, way of dressing, language, and the like. We have so many different gods. Even within a religion, you can follow your favourite gods. India allows all that. Instead of this diversity, they are trying to homogenise everything. Considerable sections of people are concerned that if the BJP gets one more term, this diversity, the basic structure of the Constitution, the goals enunciated in its preamble and the idea of India could all be subverted. That’s why they see it as a do-or-die battle. When they look at the stance taken by the Congress, a large national party, they see that Rahul Gandhi has himself said it doesn’t matter how many seats are contested by the party. What matters is the defeat inflicted on the BJP in as many seats as possible. So, we are contesting in just about 300 seats and this readiness to compromise influences other parties too. That’s how a 28-party INDIA bloc came into being and this created a big impact psychologically, giving the impression that defeating the BJP was doable. Congress is the lead party in this. Even as we oppose the CPI(M) in Kerala, the DMK (Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam) took the lead to create an alliance in Tamil Nadu with the Congress and the CPI(M). In Andhra Pradesh, the Congress accommodated the CPI(M) and the CPI in the alliance. The same has been done in Bihar, Rajasthan, Tripura... and in West Bengal, the Congress is carrying out an all-out campaign to get the CPI(M) State secretary elected to Parliament.

So, when the people look at it, the INDIA bloc is unofficially led by the Congress. In all States except Kerala, the State units of the CPI(M) need the Congress. In Tamil Nadu, the CPI(M) candidates seek votes using the pictures of (Chief Minister) M.K. Stalin and Rahul Gandhi. So, the Kerala unit of the CPI(M) is on one side, while the CPI(M) in all other States is cooperating with the Congress. Under these circumstances, the speeches of Pinarayi Vijayan and the CPI(M)‘s Kerala unit against Rahul Gandhi and the Congress have become irrelevant. It was relevant before the formation of the INDIA bloc. Now it’s all outdated. It’s something not accepted even by those with a Leftist leaning.

Rahul Gandhi has himself strongly criticised Pinarayi Vijayan, so isn’t the INDIA grouping applicable in Kerala?

When Rahul Gandhi contested from Kerala in 2019, there was no INDIA grouping. But he’s the sitting MP of Wayanad now who had won the seat by over a margin of four lakh votes. If the Left honoured the INDIA grouping, it should have supported his candidature.

But the counter-argument is that Rahul Gandhi should have fought the BJP and not the CPI(M) or the CPI. Fighting the Left will not send out the right message.

That argument is irrelevant. You look at all media platforms in India today, the only national leader who fearlessly raises his voice against the BJP and has suffered its consequences is Rahul Gandhi. Recall his disqualification for speaking against V.D. Savarkar and the same day, he was asked to vacate his official residence. The properties of National Herald were all attached, the properties of the Congress were attached, the ED questioned him for an entire day. People across the country see him as the tallest leader fearlessly taking on the BJP and the RSS despite all this persecution. Even in Kerala, he’s the most popular national leader in Kerala.

But the south is a different ballgame. When attempts are made to create cracks in the INDIA bloc by weaning away regional players in other parts, why is the Congress focussing excessively on the south and not showing the readiness to take on the BJP in the north where it is powerful?  

It is there. Everyone says the BJP will not do as well as it did the last time in States such as Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Maharashtra, Bihar, Karnataka, Telangana... In Maharashtra, the BJP is in jitters. When the election announcement came, it was said to be an easy walkover. Modi sought 400 seats. But the trend changed in the last two weeks. We hope that if this momentum carries on, the INDIA grouping will be able to come to power in June.

But no word on Uttar Pradesh... 

There are some issues in U.P. And sitting in Kerala, two years after leaving national politics, I may not be able to say anything authentically about it.

But what sort of messaging will it be if Rahul Gandhi doesn’t contest from Amethi?

The elections for Amethi and Raebareli are in the fifth phase. It has not even reached the nomination stage. Please show some patience. 

So, he might contest from there too?

He has not said he will not. In politics, one shouldn’t play all the cards altogether.

Coming back to the south, the BJP is working overtime in the region. The Prime Minister has made numerous visits to Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Even in Kerala, four of the NDA contestants are with a Congress background.

Originally, there was just the Congress and so many people left it. But like the river Ganga, it sees the birth of fresh streamlets and gathers strength.  

But the exodus is as strong... 

If in 2014 and 2019, it was just an exodus from the Congress, there’s a reversal of this trend for the first time now. A lot of people are coming over to our side too.  

But despite the daily issues faced by the people, the BJP has been able to create a perception of India having attained some heights globally under its governance.

This image is a creation of the national media, which for some reason is under the BJP’s influence. The growth they are flaunting is GDP-based, the old way of assessing growth which says wealth gets created by a few and trickles down to the lower levels. That theory has been a failure. It made India poorer, but we are returning to it now. Today, just a dozen corporations have wealth equivalent to the total wealth of some 50% of Indian people. Economic disparity in India now is worse than how it was before India gained independence. And nobody believes in Modi’s guarantee. What was his first guarantee? Employment for 2 crore youths in a year, but if that were the case, India would be without any unemployment issue today. But aren’t we seeing an exodus of young people to foreign countries? Then a deposit of ₹15 lakh in every individual’s bank account. Has he delivered on all these promises? But all the guarantees given by Rahul Gandhi were implemented in Karnataka and almost all in Telangana. When INDIA bloc comes (to power), we will have to make a common minimum programme. 

Let me tell you, although the CPI(M) in Kerala and Pinarayi Vijayan oppose us, we are not anti-Left. The Congress believes that the CPI(M) and the Left parties have an important role in the struggle against the BJP. That’s why in Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Rajasthan, West Bengal and Tripura, we are in alliance with the Left. It’s not just the CPI(M) or the CPI. We gave three seats to CPI(M-L) Liberation in Bihar which was unthinkable earlier. Leftist organisations have a major role in this fight, and they are our key ally nationally... But in Kerala, Mr. Vijayan and his party consider us as ‘untouchables’.  

When agencies such as the ED went after Rahul Gandhi and the Congress, the CPI(M) and Pinarayi Vijayan condemned the action and stood in solidarity with Mr. Gandhi. But when the same agencies troubled the CPI(M), the Congress demanded a more severe action... 

Rahul Gandhi was provoked to say that [he asked why the ED is sparing Mr. Vijayan]. Had he not shown restrained until this point? But when he leads a huge fight against the BJP, he is the arch-rival for Mr. Vijayan and the CPI(M). Mr. Vijayan says hardly anything against Mr. Modi. Does he show the same anti-Modi emphasis as M.K. Stalin does? I would say he doesn’t. Mr. Modi knows that the BJP is not going to get a seat from here (Kerala). But their aim is to reduce the Congress’s tally nationally. I wouldn’t say the CPI(M) has a pact with the BJP, but there is an undercurrent to reduce the number of seats won by the Congress.

The accusation against the Congress is its ambivalent stance on the Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA).

Congress leaders are saying it now. We needn’t say that. Constitutionally, religion has never been a factor in deciding citizenship in India and the Congress has always held that position. But when we were asked to explain, we said we would repeal it. But I believe the Supreme Court will repeal it as it is unconstitutional.

How did you manage to overcome the crisis created by your son Anil K. Antony when he joined the BJP? While you said he should lose the election (in Pathanamthitta), the BJP argues that as a Congressman, you failed to inspire even your children to follow the party’s principles... 

I was tense for a month after he joined the BJP last year. But you reconcile with such situations overtime. He is my son within the family. But he’s a BJP leader now. I have always made it a point, from the time I was in KSU (Kerala Students Union), to keep politics outside family space. I never encouraged them to join politics. No more discussions on that now.